Are the Kingdom of God and Kingdom of Heaven the same?

March 1, 2014 | PhilipFreneau

[PhilipFreneau]

Are the Kingdom of God and Heaven the same?

The teaching of the kingdom began in the days of John the Baptist, whose ministry was the fulfillment of Isaiah 40:3 and Malachi 3:1. These are the prophecies and their fulfillment:

"The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make straight in the desert a highway for our God." (Isa 40:3 KJV)

"Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the Lord of hosts." (Mal 3:1 KJV)

"In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight." (Mat 3:1-3 KJV)

"The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God; As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee. The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins." (Mark 1:1-4 KJV)

John also fulfilled the prophecy of Malachi 4:5-6:

"Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord: And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse." (Mal 4:5-6 KJV)

"For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear." (Mat 11:13-15 KJV)

Jesus made it clear that John the Baptist was the only Elijah that was to come:

"And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things. But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist." (Mat 17:11-13 KJV)

Now, after his baptism, and anointing with the Holy Ghost, Jesus began his ministry in Galilee where he preached the kingdom:

"Now when Jesus had heard that John was cast into prison, he departed into Galilee; And leaving Nazareth, he came and dwelt in Capernaum, which is upon the sea coast, in the borders of Zabulon and Nephthalim: That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, The land of Zabulon, and the land of Nephthalim, by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles; The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up. From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." (Mat 4:12-17 KJV)

"Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel." (Mark 1:14-15 KJV)

That should be enough to prove the kingdom of God and kingdom of Heaven are the same. But we will delve a little further. This is Jesus preaching to his disciples the Sermon on the Mount, as written in the books of Matthew and Luke:

"And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him: And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying, Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." (Mat 5:1-3 KJV)

"And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said, Blessed be ye poor: for yours is the kingdom of God." (Luke 6:20 KJV)

Here, the "two" kingdoms are mentioned by Matthew and Mark in similar verses about little children:

"But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven." (Mat 19:14 KJV)

"But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God." (Mark 10:14 KJV)

In the following verses, Luke and Matthew interchange kingdom of God and kingdom of Heaven in writing virtually the same statement:

"Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he." (Mat 11:11 KJV)

"For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he." (Luke 7:28 KJV)

And Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are in "both" kingdoms:

"And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven." (Mat 8:11 KJV)

"But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out." (Luke 13:27-28 KJV)

Here, the Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Heaven are used in the same passage about the rich man:

"Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God." (Mat 19:23-24 KJV)

Even in the parables, the "two kingdoms" are interchangeable:

"Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field: Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof." (Mat 13:31-32 KJV)

"And he said, Whereunto shall we liken the kingdom of God? or with what comparison shall we compare it? It is like a grain of mustard seed, which, when it is sown in the earth, is less than all the seeds that be in the earth: But when it is sown, it groweth up, and becometh greater than all herbs, and shooteth out great branches; so that the fowls of the air may lodge under the shadow of it." (Mark 4:30-32 KJV)

The evidence is overwhelming that the kingdom of God and kingdom of heaven are the same. But what are they, and when were they created? Here, Jesus said the kingdom of heaven existed during his ministry, at least since the days of John the Baptist:

"And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force." (Mat 11:12 KJV)

That is crystal clear. In the following passages Jesus prophesied that he would eat meat in the Kingdom of God, and he fulfilled that prophecy shortly after this resurrection:

"And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer: For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God." (Luke 22:15-16 KJV)

"And I appoint unto you [his disciples] a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me; That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel." (Luke 22:29-30 KJV)

"And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat? And they gave him [Jesus] a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb. And he took it, and did eat before them." (Luke 24:41-43 KJV)

Therefore, the kingdom of heaven has existed at least since the days of John the Baptist, and the Kingdom of God existed at least since shortly after the Lord's resurrection. But, if they are the same, and the evidence is overwhelming that they are, then the kingdom of God also existed since, at least, the days of John the Baptist. Check this out:

"Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you [Israel,] and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof." (Mat 21:43 KJV)

I don't know what nation Jesus was referring to, since the "kingdom" seems to have been given to anyone who believes in Christ, Jew or Gentile. It is clear that the kingdom of God existed at least before Matthew 21. We also know that the physical kingdom ended during the reign of Zedekiah about 600 BC. Let's get to the heart of the matter:

"And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you." (Luke 17:20-21 KJV)

So, the kingdom of God (or, heaven) is spiritual.

In any kingdom, there is the ruler (Christ,) and his servants, who rule and watch over the kingdom. We know of some servants, who were mentioned earlier: his disciples:

"And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." (Mat 19:28 KJV)

Other servants are mentioned as part of the first resurrection:

"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years." (Rev 20:4-6 KJV)

In summary, it appears the kingdom was taken from Israel, and given to everyone; and those of the first resurrection reign over the kingdom as servants of Christ.

Philip

[PhilipFreneau]

>>>This is a prayer given to God by believers here on earth, while members of the Kingdom of God. It is still meaningful without confusing the 2 kingdoms.<<<

Two kingdoms? Do you have any supporting scripture that there will be two kingdoms?

Thanks,

Philip

[PhilipFreneau]

>>>Why ask the question of the thread title, if you've already made up your mind not to look at the evidence?<<<

What evidence did you present? I recall your opinions, but I somehow missed your evidence. Please restate your scriptural evidence.

The whole point is to bring out scriptural evidence to support our doctrines. If you have any scriptural evidence to support your views, please post it. I will not deny the Word of God, if it supports your views.

For the record, I appreciate your earlier link to the Lewis Sperry Chafer paper; but I don't consider him a credible bibilical scholar. For example, he wrote in the paper you linked, "The Kingdom in History and Prophecy:"

Protestant theology has very generally taught that all the kingdom promise, and ever the great Davidic covenant itself, are to be fulfilled in and through the Church. The confusion thus created has been still further darkened by the failure to distinguish the different phases of the kingdom truth indicated by the expression "kingdom of Heaven," and "kingdom of God. "

Then, in a vain attempt to present his opinion as fact, he tries to tug at our insecurity with, "Bible interpretation is incomplete without it." He piles on with this hogwash, all right out of Scofield 101:

In the Bible:
- " Israel " is not the " Church";
- " Zion " is not the body of saints of this dispensation;
-the " throne of David " is not Heaven, nor will it ever be;
-the " land of your fathers " is not " Paradise " and
-the " house of Jacob" is not a host of Gentiles ignorantly attempting to force an entrance into Judaism

That is spiritualization of the scriptures to the nth degree. A couple of things he mentioned are borderline true; but they are polluted by half-truths and absolute nonsense.

Getting back to the topic, there is no proof whatsoever the "two" kingdoms are anything but the same. The only "proof" that exists is a mere opinion, and you know what they are worth.

Anyway, thanks for your reply.

Philip

[af_vet_1981]

Therefore, times, time and half a time are 2 + 1 + 1/2 = 3 1/2 years, or forty and two months; exactly the time the holy city, Jerusalem was trodden under foot by the Gentiles, as prophesied in Rev 11:2, and confirmed by historical records. Philip

Jerusalem was besieged for quite some time. After it fell, it was trodden under foot by the Gentiles until at least 1967, or count approximately 6 months in 70 when they entered Jerusalem.

[PhilipFreneau]

>>>Jerusalem was besieged for quite some time. After it fell, it was trodden under foot by the Gentiles until at least 1967, or count approximately 6 months in 70 when they entered Jerusalem.<<<

I’m not sure what you are saying.

Philip

[af_vet_1981]

I mean Jerusalem was not trodden under foot by the Gentiles
for only 42 months so your link falls long or short. The Romans entered for about 6 months in 70. Otherwise the Gentiles have trodden it under foot until this day, or if you don’t regard the site Abraham offered Isaac and on which the a temples were built, 1944 Gentile years. You also might run all your Preterist calendar code calculations through the Hebrew/biblical calendar.

[af_vet_1981]

And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the Lord thy God hath driven thee, And shalt return unto the Lord thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul; That then the Lord thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the Lord thy God hath scattered thee. If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the Lord thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee: And the Lord thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers. And the Lord thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live. And the Lord thy God will put all these curses upon thine enemies, and on them that hate thee, which persecuted thee. And thou shalt return and obey the voice of the Lord, and do all his commandments which I command thee this day.

God foresaw Israel would choose poorly and that Messiah would be betrayed to the wicked hands of the Gentiles. He also foresaw this.

[dartuser]

That is when he sat on his throne: when he came with his holy angels to gather his elect in 70AD.

Welcome to fantasy island again folks ...

Where the second coming actually was in 70 AD, and even though every eye was suppose to see Him (Rev. 1), He really came back spiritually so that nobody actually did.

Miller repented of his foolishness ...

[PhilipFreneau]

>>>I mean Jerusalem was not trodden under foot by the Gentiles for only 42 months so your link falls long or short. The Romans entered for about 6 months in 70. Otherwise the Gentiles have trodden it under foot until this day, or if you don’t regard the site Abraham offered Isaac and on which the a temples were built, 1944 Gentile years. You also might run all your Preterist calendar code calculations through the Hebrew/biblical calendar<<<

I would agree with you, if we had only the means to look at it from a futuristic perspective, with no historical hindsight. But historians say that forty and two months was the length of the war, from Mar 67 to Sept 70 AD. I believe that was considered the time period beginning when Rome declared war on Israel, until the Temple was destroyed. We also have to consider the high probability that "the holy city" included all of Israel. Moses Stuart wrote in Hints on the Interpretation of Prophecy, 2Ed, 1851, p 115-116:

“. . . Jerusalem, as being the metropolis, is, as often in the Old Testament, made the symbol or representative of the whole country or nation. The reader needs only to be reminded, how often Zion and Jerusalem stand, in prophetic language, as the representatives of the Jewish government, polity, land, and nation, in order to accede to the position, that the capitals in the Apocalypse are to be considered as the symbols of the country and of the government to which they belong."

“When John therefore predicts, in Rev. 11:2, that “the holy city shall be trodden under foot 42 months,” this of course involves the idea, that the country of which the holy city is the capital, is also trodden under foot. To make their way to the capital, a foreign enemy, coming (as the Romans did) from the north, must have overrun a great portion of Palestine antecedently to the capture of Jerusalem. The prediction of course includes both, inasmuch as the holy city is made the representative of the country at large.”

Therefore, according to Stuart, the term "holy city" included the nation it represented. Recall that Jesus emphasized the destruction of Jerusalem, yet other Israeli cities were destroyed, as well.

Philip

[PhilipFreneau]

>>>Welcome to fantasy island again folks ... Where the second coming actually was in 70 AD, and even though every eye was suppose to see Him (Rev. 1), He really came back spiritually so that nobody actually did. Miller repented of his foolishness ...<<<

LOL! This coming from one who believes that Old Testament imagery that is used in the New Testament must be considered literally? I think you and Miller have a lot in common. Wasn’t he some sort of false prophet, along the lines of Hal Lindsey, who predicted the year of the rapture?

Talk about fantasy island. One day maybe you will explain to us how you envision “every eye” seeing Jesus, and especially those who have been dead for 2000 years; you remember: those who pierced him? I bet you have to put on your Super-Duper Fantasy Island Thinking Cap for that one! LOL!

Philip

[PhilipFreneau]

>>>God foresaw Israel would choose poorly and that Messiah would be betrayed to the wicked hands of the Gentiles. He also foresaw this. . . <<<

Just a minor point: shouldn't you have written, the wicked Jews betrayed Christ in front of the compassionate Roman, who didn't want Christ murdered and tried to talk the Jews out of it? Or something like that . . .

That passage from Deut 30 was referring to the Babylonian captivity, if I understand correctly. I also noticed you stopped before the going got rough. This followed:

"… I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; In that I command thee this day to love the Lord thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the Lord thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it. But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them; I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it. I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live…" (Deut 20:15-19)

I am still not sure what your point is. In the next chapter it appears Moses threw in the towel:

"For I know thy rebellion, and thy stiff neck: behold, while I am yet alive with you this day, ye have been rebellious against the Lord; and how much more after my death? Gather unto me all the elders of your tribes, and your officers, that I may speak these words in their ears, and call heaven and earth to record against them. For I know that after my death ye will utterly corrupt yourselves, and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days; because ye will do evil in the sight of the Lord, to provoke him to anger through the work of your hands." (Deu 31:27-29 KJV)

I would appreciate it if you would include the Book, Chapter and verse(s). Otherwise, how am I going to follow your conversation and have enough spare time to take care of my honey-do list?

Thanks,

Philip

[Iscool]

According to Jesus, it already existed since the days of John the Baptist. Do you have any scripture that would dispute the words of Jesus?

Only the words of Jesus...

Mat 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

At hand means near...

[Zuriel]

Jerusalem was under the foot of Nebuchadnezzar, on thru the time of Christ’s trial before Pilate (we have no king but Caesar), and on thru Paul’s rescue from the Jews by the Roman soldiers,...right up to establishment of Israel in 1948.

The inserrection of 70 AD was hardly an example of a Jerusalem controlled by Israel. More like an increasingly painful imprisonment, until the city was destroyed. Rome had the sheer manpower to take Jerusalem in short order if it had wanted to bring in more forces. The city wasn’t much of a threat to overthowing their empire. But, they were certainly used as another example of Roman (God ordained) judgement for rebellion.

[PhilipFreneau]

>>>Mat 4:17: At hand means near...<<<

I agree. But there are other verses to contend with. Let's analyze:

Jesus began at Galilee preaching the Kingdom (God/heaven) was at hand, or, you stated, near:

"Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel." (Mark 1:14-15 KJV)

"Now when Jesus had heard that John was cast into prison, he departed into Galilee … From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." (Mat 4:12, 17 KJV)

But later Jesus said that the violent controlled the kingdom of God/heaven from the days of John the Baptist:

"And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force." (Mat 11:12 KJV)

Even later, he gave us an indication of who the violent were:

"And when he was come into the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people came unto him as he was teaching, and said, By what authority doest thou these things? and who gave thee this authority? ...Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof ... And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them." (Mat 21:43. 45 KJV)

It appears the violent were, most likely, the chief priest, elders and Pharisees. Therefore, I conclude that when Jesus said the kingdom of God/heaven was at hand, he meant it was going to be taken away from the violent, and given to others. Does that sound reasonable?

Philip

[PhilipFreneau]

>>>>Jerusalem was under the foot of Nebuchadnezzar, on thru the time of Christ’s trial before Pilate (we have no king but Caesar), and on thru Paul’s rescue from the Jews by the Roman soldiers,...right up to establishment of Israel in 1948.<<<

>>>>The inserrection of 70 AD was hardly an example of a Jerusalem controlled by Israel. More like an increasingly painful imprisonment, until the city was destroyed. Rome had the sheer manpower to take Jerusalem in short order if it had wanted to bring in more forces. The city wasn’t much of a threat to overthowing their empire. But, they were certainly used as another example of Roman (God ordained) judgement for rebellion.<<<<

What scriptures are you referring to?

Philip

[af_vet_1981]

In the next chapter it appears Moses threw in the towel:

Exodus 32:30-35

• And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses said unto the people, Ye have sinned a great sin: and now I will go up unto the LORD; peradventure I shall make an atonement for your sin. And Moses returned unto the LORD, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold. Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written. And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book. Therefore now go, lead the people unto the place of which I have spoken unto thee: behold, mine Angel shall go before thee: nevertheless in the day when I visit I will visit their sin upon them. And the LORD plagued the people, because they made the calf, which Aaron made.

Sometimes you write things that make me think you simply reject the nature of God's love and grace, why Messiah had to suffer and die, and take you purposefully take the role of Israel's accuser and adversary. Jeremiah 31:1-11

1. At the same time, saith the LORD, will I be the God of all the families of Israel, and they shall be my people.
2. Thus saith the LORD, The people which were left of the sword found grace in the wilderness; even Israel, when I went to cause him to rest.
3. The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.
4. Again I will build thee, and thou shalt be built, O virgin of Israel: thou shalt again be adorned with thy tabrets, and shalt go forth in the dances of them that make merry.
5. Thou shalt yet plant vines upon the mountains of Samaria: the planters shall plant, and shall eat them as common things.
6. For there shall be a day, that the watchmen upon the mount Ephraim shall cry, Arise ye, and let us go up to Zion unto the LORD our God.
7. For thus saith the LORD; Sing with gladness for Jacob, and shout among the chief of the nations: publish ye, praise ye, and say, O LORD, save thy people, the remnant of Israel.
8. Behold, I will bring them from the north country, and gather them from the coasts of the earth, and with them the blind and the lame, the woman with child and her that travaileth with child together: a great company shall return thither.
9. They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.
10. Hear the word of the LORD, O ye nations, and declare it in the isles afar off, and say, He that scattered Israel will gather him, and keep him, as a shepherd doth his flock.
11. For the LORD hath redeemed Jacob, and ransomed him from the hand of him that was stronger than he.

I would appreciate it if you would include the Book, Chapter and verse(s). Otherwise, how am I going to follow your conversation and have enough spare time to take care of my honey-do list?

I'll try to include references.

That passage from Deut 30 was referring to the Babylonian captivity, if I understand correctly. I also noticed you stopped before the going got rough.

No, that is not what it says. That is what you want it to say. It is a covenant between God and Israel. You have nothing to do with it. You should listen to your Apostle. These things are true and eternal. Romans 9:1-5

1. I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
2. That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
3. For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4. Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5. Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

And Romans 11:1-6 says this which is still true.

1. I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
3. Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4. But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

[Cvengr]

The main half truth being presented is somebody claiming they have a question when they post an article, when they refuse to look at the evidence and have a preformed decision.

[af_vet_1981]

Just a minor point: shouldn't you have written, the wicked Jews betrayed Christ in front of the compassionate Roman, who didn't want Christ murdered and tried to talk the Jews out of it? Or something like that . . .

Do you mean the Roman who heard the Word face to face, had the authority to set him free, and still ordered him to be tortured and crucified ? Will you next present the defense for Judas Iscariot ?

[af_vet_1981]

So the lions will become vegetarians? That is a new twist. Could it not mean something like, the Devil as a roaring lion, or some other metaphor of the mean man changing his ways? You do recall the Jews took the Old Testament literally, and it did not fare too well for them.

I see; when you support Preterism you have no problem taking things literally, or spiritually, or whatever works best; It is as if the gospel you believe first and foremost is Preterism itself and everything is secondary to that equation. That is the way your comments come across to me. Were Daniel's 70 weeks contiguous or interrupted ?

[af_vet_1981]

Therefore, according to Stuart, the term "holy city" included the nation it represented. Recall that Jesus emphasized the destruction of Jerusalem, yet other Israeli cities were destroyed, as well.

You are trying to change what Jesus said. He did not say the Land of Israel would be trodden down of the Gentiles, he said Jerusalem.

And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

[PhilipFreneau]

>>>Sometimes you write things that make me think you simply reject the nature of God’s love and grace, why Messiah had to suffer and die, and take you purposefully take the role of Israel’s accuser and adversary.<<<

I thought you were through with your nastiness, but I guess I was wrong. Those things written in the books of Moses were intended to be warnings to Israel; not as a weapon against anyone who doesn’t adhere to your feelings about them. It is about time you heard, maybe for the first time, that your doctrine is far more dangerous to Israel than mine.

What is the consequence of my interpretation of the future being wrong? Nothing, except maybe a few more Jews will hear about Christ.

What is the consequence of your doctrine if you and your fellow futurists are wrong? Generations of Jews will never hear the words of Christ. Frankly, your “hands-off” doctrine stinks.

Philip