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Answering Protestants ^ | 7 March 2014 | Matthew Olson

Posted on 03/07/2014 10:14:06 AM PST by matthewrobertolson

Only trusting the Bible without the Church would be like loving "Romeo & Juliet" and hating Shakespeare's explanation of it.

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TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; General Discusssion; Theology
KEYWORDS: bible; christian; church; jesus; pimpmyblog
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1 posted on 03/07/2014 10:14:06 AM PST by matthewrobertolson
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To: matthewrobertolson
The bible never calls for a church to be an accessory to a belief system, it is an organism BECAUSE OF a belief system

Scripture calls for preachers, teachers and evangelists and does not define any of those as a group of any kind, rather .. individual men.

2 posted on 03/07/2014 10:17:41 AM PST by knarf (I say things that are true .. I have no proof .. but they're true.)
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To: matthewrobertolson

Bored today ?


3 posted on 03/07/2014 10:18:26 AM PST by wonkowasright (Wonko from outside the asylum)
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To: matthewrobertolson

....Or rather using just only the Lenard Bernstein version of Romeo and Juliet called “West Side Story.”


4 posted on 03/07/2014 10:23:08 AM PST by Biggirl (“Go, do not be afraid, and serve”-Pope Francis)
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To: matthewrobertolson

Any church that accepts the mutterings of small children as equal to God’s Holy Word is clearly insane and corrupt. When some church tradition stands in opposition to Scripture, the tradition is sinful.


5 posted on 03/07/2014 10:25:41 AM PST by Dr. Thorne ("How long, O Lord, holy and true?" - Rev. 6:10)
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To: matthewrobertolson

How does YHvH define "church" i.e.Ekklesia ?

The Law of First Mention

Is it all those called out by YHvH ?

A study of the word "church", in the Koine Greek : Ekklesia.

Was the "church" started at the YHvH commanded
Feast day of Shavuot (pentecost) as some say ?

or

Did the "church" exist earlier ?

Using the LXX as a guide we see that the Ekklesia
is first used in Deuteronomy 4:10

NAsbU Deuteronomy 4:10 "Remember the day you stood before YHvH, your God
at Horeb, when YHvH said to me, 'Assemble the people to Me, that I may let
them hear My words so they may learn to fear Me all the days they live on
the earth, and that they may teach their children.
'
Also see : Deu 4:10, Deu 9:10, Deu 18:16, Deu 23:3, Deu 23:4, Deu 23:9, Deu 31:30,
Jos 9:2, Jda 20.2, Jda 21:5, Jda 21:8, Jdg 20:2 Jdg 21:5, Jdg 21:8, 1 Sa 17:47,
1 Sa 19:20, 1 Ki 8:14, 1 Ki 8:22, 1 Ki 8:55, 1 Ki 8:65, 1 Ch 13:2, 1 Ch 13:4, 1 Ch 28:2,
1 Ch 28:8

What was the purpose of the Ekklesia ?

Was it a temporal corporation to rule on earth ? No !

Was it to have a temporal head ? No !

It was a gathering of YHvH's chosen people to hear His Word ?

and learn to Fear YHvH all their days ?

And to teach their children the same ? Yes.

-------------

Ekklesia is from the Hebrew Qahal (kof, hey, lamed)

(kof => The HOLY ONE
hey => grace, breath of G-d
lamed => teaching and learning)
which is haQahal The assembly (hey, kop, hey, lamed)
In scripture it is always used to describe
those who have been assembled by YHvH.
It begins in Exodus 16:3 ( the bread from heaven )
and continues to Nehemiah 8:17 (living in Booths)
NAsbU Nehemiah 8:17
The entire assembly of those who had returned from
the captivity made booths and lived in them.
The sons of Israel had indeed not done so
from the days of Joshua(Yehoshua)
the son of Nun to that day.
And there was great rejoicing.
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
6 posted on 03/07/2014 10:27:34 AM PST by Uriel-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your teaching is my delight.)
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To: Uri’el-2012

Excellent analysis!

Praise God for Messianic Jews!

There’s a Messianic Jew on the radio named Tom Cantor. I love listening to him, because he has a depth of knowledge of the Bible and of Hebrew that goes beyond just academic learning, but is woven into the very fabric of his being.

He did the best treatment of the Books of Esther and Ruth that I ever heard. Without an intimate knowledge of the Jewish culture and tradition, much of the depth of these books is lost.


7 posted on 03/07/2014 10:38:59 AM PST by Westbrook (Children do not divide your love, they multiply it.)
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To: Westbrook

The whole of the Bible is to be understood in relationship to the whole of the Bible.

Amen!


8 posted on 03/07/2014 10:42:01 AM PST by MeshugeMikey (Jesus came to Save not Entertain / Ground John Kerry Now!)
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To: matthewrobertolson

Ouch!


9 posted on 03/07/2014 10:45:16 AM PST by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: knarf

The Bible has the account of Christ founding the church on his apostles. Doesn’t your Bible have that?


10 posted on 03/07/2014 10:48:26 AM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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Comment #11 Removed by Moderator

To: Dr. Thorne

Are you saying that Christ founding the Catholic Church on the apostles to carry on after his Ascension is “mutterings of small children?

Aren’t you blaspheming God by saying that?


12 posted on 03/07/2014 10:51:54 AM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: matthewrobertolson

My brain hurts from trying to understand that analogy. Maybe if I were Catholic; it would all make sense?


13 posted on 03/07/2014 10:56:29 AM PST by Responsibility2nd (NO LIBS. This Means Liberals and (L)libertarians! Same Thing. NO LIBS!!)
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To: matthewrobertolson
Only trusting the Bible without the Church would be like loving "Romeo & Juliet" and hating Shakespeare's explanation of it.

Well we know that whoever authored this bible hit piece is lying because we have the words of the bible right in front of us...

Psa 12:6 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Psa 12:7 Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.

Who does the bible say is going to keep and preserve God's words forever??? The Catholic religion??? Of course not...If that religion would have written the bible let alone had the capability to understand it, those verses such as these would not have been put into the bible...

14 posted on 03/07/2014 11:00:07 AM PST by Iscool (Ya mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailer park...)
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To: matthewrobertolson

This week’s episode of “Adventures in Missing the Point”


15 posted on 03/07/2014 11:01:18 AM PST by Lee N. Field (I beat wasp nests with a stick for fun.)
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To: Salvation; Dr. Thorne
You are blaspheming God.

Easy, I doubt Dr Thorne is a Catholic.

16 posted on 03/07/2014 11:26:11 AM PST by xone
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To: matthewrobertolson

Catholicism and Scripture. More like studying the free market economy by reading Lenin.


17 posted on 03/07/2014 11:30:23 AM PST by Gamecock
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To: Dr. Thorne

Amen.

Mat 15:5 But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;

Mat 15:6 And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.

Mat 15:7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,

Mat 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

Mat 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

So making the commandment of God of none effect by a tradition is a bad thing, and teaching for doctrines the commandments of men is a bad thing.


18 posted on 03/07/2014 11:33:29 AM PST by afsnco
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To: matthewrobertolson

Bad analogy - the church did not write the Bible. A more correct analogy would be to trust in the Bible but not listen to one of the actor’s guild opinion about how the play should be conducted.


19 posted on 03/07/2014 11:41:20 AM PST by taxcontrol
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To: matthewrobertolson

since many have left the Church here is what has happened:

they threw out:

the Blessed Mother,

bishops,

ordained priests,

the Eucahrist,

seven books of the bible,

the crucifix,

religious icons,

saints,

the Mystical Body,

physically going to Church on the Lord’s Day,

and One Truth.

INSTEAD THEY HAVE:

Everyone has their Own Personal Interpretation of Scripture,

moral relativism,

protestant ministers coaching newlyweds on birth control options,

sects arguing with sects over the smallest scriptural details,

Welches grape juice and Ritz crackers,

new bibles whose interpretations vary widely,

and faithful who say they often don’t agree with their minister.

AMDG
Ad Majoram Dei Gloriam


20 posted on 03/07/2014 11:42:52 AM PST by LurkingSince'98 (Catholics=John 6:53-58 Everyone else=John 6:60-66)
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To: LurkingSince'98; Alex Murphy; metmom

At least we don’t have a potty mouth Pope who robs corpses!

(See how hyperbole leads to hyperbole?;


21 posted on 03/07/2014 11:50:08 AM PST by Gamecock
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To: Salvation

Nope ... and neither does your Douay-Rheims


22 posted on 03/07/2014 12:05:08 PM PST by knarf (I say things that are true .. I have no proof .. but they're true.)
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To: LurkingSince'98
since many have left the Church here is what has happened:

they threw out:

the Blessed Mother- Kept the scriptural Mary, tossed the one with supernatural powers

bishops- Tossed the rulers and lords over the church IAW 1Peter 5:3

ordained priests- Have ordained servants of the Word, all Christians are priests, 1 Peter 2:5-9

the Eucahrist,- The Eucharist is still there, just not the unscriptural transubstantiation. IAW Christ's words Matt 26:26-29

seven books of the bible- the same seven Jerome rejected until pressed. We'll have to learn how to drive a demon away by burning his liver, elsewhere.

the crucifix- Not gone at all either is acceptable and commendable. Fixation to the point of idolatry on either the crucifix or plain cross is the problem, corrected by the right instruction

religious icons-same as the above to the extent that they depict biblical truths rather than amorphous traditions

saints,- We killed the saints? All Christians are saints. 1 Cor 6:1-3

the Mystical Body- No, didn't get rid of that either, just the unscriptural practice of invoking the saints and the unscriptural practice of praying to any but God as Christ instructs. John 14:14, Matt. 6:9 and by the Apostle 1 Cor 1:2

physically going to Church on the Lord’s Day- I didn't know this, I could stay in bed. Hyperbolic.

and One Truth- As obscured as it is in Catholicism again we agree with Christ in John 17:17.

and faithful who say they often don’t agree with their minister.

Haven't been on the papal threads then lately. Should be calling out your brethren rather than non-Catholics.

23 posted on 03/07/2014 12:15:55 PM PST by xone
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To: matthewrobertolson

“Only trusting the Bible without the Church would be like loving ‘Romeo & Juliet’ and hating Shakespeare’s explanation of it.”

THE CHURCH is made up of the people who are indwelled by the Holy Spirit because they have believed the Gospel that Christ commanded His Church to proclaim.

This has always been the case since the Holy Spirit descended at Pentecost. Apostles were commissioned to found the Church and were required to provide proof of their apostolic authority which included being eye-witnesses to the risen Christ. This apostolic authority is preserved for us today in their writings. (See 2 Peter 1:15.)

Believers are collectively indwelled by the Holy Spirit. Therefore believers do need other believers to receive all of the benefits and blessings of the Holy Spirit as God has fashioned His Church so that each part serves a purpose. Each is needed and needs the other parts.

The idea that believers need help from other believers, i.e. THE CHURCH is not foreign to scripture, but the Catholic concept of reserving to itself and its hierarchy the title of CHURCH is foreign to the message of the Bible and of the Gospel in general.

When the disciples debated over who would be greatest, Christ rebuked this and taught them a different model of leadership. When God ordained that Paul would be an apostle to the Gentiles, He ordered it so that his apostleship did not rely on any other apostles. “neither did I confer with those who were apostles before me...” Paul wrote.

Further, the Catholic idea of apostolic tradition “was to be preserved in a continuous line of succession until the end of time” is completely foreign to the Biblical basis which it claims. Paul left Timothy to appoint elders (or bishops if you prefer) in each city. These had leadership roles within the church in their geographic boundary which comprised the local churches.

We can find proof from numerous examples that the Gospel was preached, people believed and were baptized into the church without this so-called continuous line. There were those who preached and did works in Christ’s name whom the disciples wanted to forbid because they “follow not with us”. What did Christ reply? “Forbid them not.” Apollos was not trained by the apostles but was recorded in scripture as being an influential preacher of the Gospel. Further, Christ appointed multiple apostles and did not leave a solitary apostle in charge of the others. And Paul was ordained to fulfill his calling as an apostle, not through the other apostles, but through the leaders of the local church in Antioch where he served. And in Revelation, Christ commends those believers who do not blindly follow those who claim apostolic authority but rather put these claims to the test. They tested these claims and found them fraudulent. Revelation, the last book of the canon of scripture, warns of those who want to add or take away from it. The canon has been closed, faithfully sealed by God and preserved by His divine power so that no matter who has opposed its spread and proclamation (even among those who claim to be its keeper), the Bible has prevailed.


24 posted on 03/07/2014 12:23:05 PM PST by unlearner (You will never come to know that which you do not know until you first know that you do not know it.)
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To: xone

And let’s not forget expalining away ghastly sins commited by their figurehead.


25 posted on 03/07/2014 12:23:38 PM PST by Gamecock
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To: xone

AMEN!!!


26 posted on 03/07/2014 12:27:01 PM PST by faucetman ( Just the facts, ma'am, Just the facts)
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To: Gamecock

Well, those that left didn’t ‘gain’ that in the listing, I wonder why your point wasn’t mentioned in the things ‘thrown out’. I’m confident we’ll find out.


27 posted on 03/07/2014 12:28:48 PM PST by xone
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To: xone

“The Church came before the 4 Gospels, not the other way around” ~ Pope John Paul II


28 posted on 03/07/2014 12:46:20 PM PST by NKP_Vet ("I got a good Christin' raisin', an 8th grade education, ain't no need ya'll treatin' me this way")
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To: LurkingSince'98

“and faithful who say they often don’t agree with their minister.”

Not sure what “exactly” you meant there, but my pastor tells us to not blindly believe what he says. We should check it with God’s word. If we find a conflict we are to go with God’s word.

I don’t need a priest or pastor to tell me what the bible says.

I CAN READ. I can also discern. I can research. I have the Holy Spirit, a helper.
John 14:
16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be[c] in you.
26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.


29 posted on 03/07/2014 12:50:42 PM PST by faucetman ( Just the facts, ma'am, Just the facts)
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To: NKP_Vet

Yep, just not the Catholic one that we know today. But it is a good reference by the former Pope to the true church comprised of all the believers in Christ.


30 posted on 03/07/2014 12:52:55 PM PST by xone
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To: xone

He was talking about the Church that protestants broke away from in the 16th Century. God never intended for a German monk to splinter his Pilgrim Church on Earth. He weeps.


31 posted on 03/07/2014 1:04:38 PM PST by NKP_Vet ("I got a good Christin' raisin', an 8th grade education, ain't no need ya'll treatin' me this way")
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To: NKP_Vet
He weeps.

At the gross idolatry of the Papacy, the soul destroying works righteousness, the appropriation of secular power when His kingdom was not of this world.

The German monk was the messenger that returned Christianity to its former self. Returned scripture to the people so that all could read and hear the words of His Gospel. God's hand of providence is clearly seen in the fact that the Pope's former weapons of excommunication and the interdict were ineffective. Still the Catholic church doubled down on its heresy claiming entrance to heaven depended on their approval, something they never bothered to check on with the King of Heaven before promulgation. The second sword of the papacy was stricken from the pope's hand by the kingdoms of the earth, the first, the spiritual, stricken by God Himself.

32 posted on 03/07/2014 1:24:34 PM PST by xone
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To: NKP_Vet

Circular logic at its finest.


33 posted on 03/07/2014 1:27:41 PM PST by Gamecock
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To: matthewrobertolson

Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in Heaven. 18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.” [Matthew 16]


It’s been over 2000 years since then, Peter got a name & the key to heaven, not the Bible. Jesus taught through people, good and bad, not writing, he only scribbled in the sand. It is what it is.


34 posted on 03/07/2014 1:46:56 PM PST by ex-snook (God is Love)
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To: Westbrook
Without an intimate knowledge of the Jewish culture and tradition, much of the depth of these books is lost.

baruch HaShem
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
35 posted on 03/07/2014 2:13:09 PM PST by Uriel-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your teaching is my delight.)
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To: Uri’el-2012

> baruch HaShem
>
> shalom b’SHEM Yah’shua HaMashiach

Thank you, my brother.


36 posted on 03/07/2014 2:17:18 PM PST by Westbrook (Children do not divide your love, they multiply it.)
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To: unlearner

This has always been the case since the Holy Spirit descended at Pentecost.


Mostly agree, but Paul was sent to Jerusalem to get an issue settled between him and other Church leaders in which Paul was upheld by Peter and was found to be in the right by James.

This happened 14 to 17 years after Pauls conversion and was hardly mentioned by Paul but is very plain in acts 15.


37 posted on 03/07/2014 2:19:50 PM PST by ravenwolf
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To: Westbrook

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/3130809/posts


38 posted on 03/07/2014 2:31:51 PM PST by Uriel-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your teaching is my delight.)
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To: xone; Gamecock

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZK3Dx29wCZE

When Christ spoke of the Church, He always used the singular — and yet now there are over 40,000 different denominations of Christians in the world, with the number only rising daily. If these Churches hold conflicting views, can all of them be the “True Church”? Can there be such a thing as a “True Church”, and does it still exist? Join host Michael Voris as he answers these questions and shows that the One True Church is the Catholic Church


39 posted on 03/07/2014 4:09:43 PM PST by NKP_Vet ("I got a good Christin' raisin', an 8th grade education, ain't no need ya'll treatin' me this way")
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To: NKP_Vet

There is one church.. All who place their faith in Jesus as seen in Scripture are members of that one church.

Have you accepted Jesus alone as your personal Savior?

Saint Gamecock


40 posted on 03/07/2014 4:12:49 PM PST by Gamecock
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To: NKP_Vet

There is one church.. All who place their faith in Jesus as seen in Scripture are members of that one church.

Have you accepted Jesus alone as your personal Savior?

Saint Gamecock


41 posted on 03/07/2014 4:13:20 PM PST by Gamecock
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To: NKP_Vet
The church has always been defined as believers in Christ, in His work of atonement. Rather than a YouTube, we have God's own Word. II Corinthians 5:17; Ephesians 4:24; Colossians 3:9, 10; Ephesians 2:10; Galatians 6:15; James 1:17-18; I John 5:1; John 1:12, 13; John 5:24, 25; Ephesians 2:1; Colossians 2:13; Luke 15:24, 32

The point is the Bible is about Christ, why He came, what He did, the Father's plan from before eternity. Christ is given His by the Father, Christ's righteousness covers all of His. One would think that if talking of the church that you would take God's Word for who is saved and how.

All the additional requirements as to what is required to believe before salvation can be yours are and can be answered thusly.

John 20: 30-31. By the inspired Gospel of John, the disciple Jesus loved, the son to Jesus' mother, the Apostle who delivered the visions of heaven contained in Revelation. From that John we can READ that the everything needful to believe for life in Christ's name, is written in John's Gospel.

Despite Jesus' admonition in Matt 11:28-30 about His yoke being easy and His burden light, the Catholic church has seen fit to add numerous other requirements for salvation, coincidentally, none of which are in John's Gospel, Not that being a Christian would be an easy road with no persecution or that Satan and his minions, the world and our own flesh wouldn't interfere, but that the legalism and the burdensome system of works wasn't the way of Christ.

The free grace of God drawing men to Him, the free gift of faith that He grants, the free power to live a life in Christ are all given to men. Salvation has always been all God's work. From the sinless life of Jesus to His death on the cross where it WAS finished for all men. To His resurrection and ascension to the throne, where He rules, where He will judge on the Last Day, where He destroys the enemies of God by His Own Word, where He gathers His sheep to Himself. That is the story of the salvation of the Lord, it really is all about Him.

42 posted on 03/07/2014 4:50:31 PM PST by xone
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To: Gamecock

There is no such thing as an invisible church of believers. Christ started a very visible Church and that is the Catholic Church, whether protestants want to believe it or not.

I like to remind people that Christ did not say “Upon this rock I build my churches.” He said “church” singular. And if you have a problem “take it to the church.” Well, how do you do that if your church is invisible? And if you believe in two churches, a brick-n-mortar one and an invisible one which brick-n-mortar church do you go to when there’s a different one on every block, each happily willing to give you a different answer??


43 posted on 03/07/2014 5:32:36 PM PST by NKP_Vet ("I got a good Christin' raisin', an 8th grade education, ain't no need ya'll treatin' me this way")
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To: knarf
Yes, the Douay Rheims has it and so does your Bible.

Your Bible does have the Gospel of John in it, doesn't it? Please open to John 20:1923

John, chapter 20

 

Appearance to the Disciples.*

19On the evening of that first day of the week,j when the doors were locked, where the disciples* were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in their midst and said to them, “Peace be with you.”

20When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side.* The disciples rejoiced when they saw the Lord.k

21* [Jesus] said to them again,l “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.”

22* And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them,m “Receive the holy Spirit.

23* n Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.”


44 posted on 03/07/2014 5:45:20 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: knarf
Again from the Gospel of John -- the leadership of Peter:

John 21:15-19 -- it is in your Bible isn't it? Why don't you believe these things?

John, chapter 21

 

Jesus and Peter.*

15When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter,* “Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?”* He said to him, “Yes, Lord, you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Feed my lambs.”

16He then said to him a second time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord, you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Tend my sheep.”

17He said to him the third time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” Peter was distressed that he had said to him a third time, “Do you love me?” and he said to him, “Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you.” [Jesus] said to him, “Feed my sheep.i

18* Amen, amen, I say to you,j when you were younger, you used to dress yourself and go where you wanted; but when you grow old, you will stretch out your hands, and someone else will dress you and lead you where you do not want to go.”

19He said this signifying by what kind of death he would glorify God. And when he had said this, he said to him, “Follow me.”k


45 posted on 03/07/2014 5:48:07 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: NKP_Vet

He did not start the Papist system. There is one church and he rules over it, not some guy in Rome who is as fallible as the next guy.


46 posted on 03/07/2014 6:57:45 PM PST by Gamecock
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To: ravenwolf

Correct. But Paul did not go there to establish his authority or to learn for himself the correct answer. He went there because there was not unanimous consent about the relationship Gentiles had to the Law of Moses. Particularly, the question at hand was whether Gentiles had to become Jews (Jewish proselytes) in order to become Christian (which was still considered a sect of Judaism).

This issue was not resolved by a single apostle or even without the input of other leaders such as James. (The James who summed up and penned the answer to this question in Acts was not James the apostle but James the Lord’s brother.)

Peter was instrumental in resolving the dispute by reminding the church in Jerusalem that God had specifically chosen him (by multiple visions) to be the first to deliver the Gospel to the Gentiles. God had already shown by giving them the Holy Spirit in a similar way as on Pentecost that Gentiles could be allowed entry into the Church (officially recognized at their water baptism) without their conversion to Judaism. The idea of Gentiles becoming part of the Church without converting to Judaism was so strange to these men that even after this experience Paul had to publicly reprove Peter for the hypocrisy of him trying to please the Judaisers by refusing to eat with Gentile believers.

My point in using these examples was to underscore that the Catholic doctrine of a “continuous line of succession” is foreign to the scriptures. A lost person can hear directly from Paul or Peter or John or the other apostles and be saved by believing their Gospel message. In some form or fashion this message has to be delivered to the unbeliever in order for it to be heard, but that does not preclude the message taking the form of a printed Bible translation.

The Catholic doctrine takes a Biblical pattern of discipleship which Christ and the apostles used to “train faithful men” who would, in turn, be able to do the same. This pattern does recognize that the church requires leaders but it does not limit God from being able to raise up men to serve him who have never been taught by anyone. Just like John the baptist told the religious leaders not to boast of their heritage because God was able to raise up seed to Abraham from the stones, God is also able to raise up Church leaders wherever and whenever He pleases.

Jesus called His apostles from many walks of life and used them to establish the Church, but He did not require their assistance to save and convert Paul and turn him into the greatest Gospel preacher and Bible expositor the Church would possibly ever see. God instructs and reveals to us the meaning of His word through the indwelling Holy Spirit both directly and indirectly (through Spirit-filled teachers). So even when teachers teach, it is actually the Holy Spirit who reveals the meaning to us.

We further see a pattern of local churches being formed in the New Testament which were able to mature to the point where they did not need outside teaching and leadership, but they were able to follow the pattern which God ordained of setting teachers and other leaders IN the local church rather than above or outside of it.

Matthew 16:17
Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.”

Hebrews 5:12
For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the first principles of the oracles of God...

1 Corinthians 12:28
And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers...

1 John 2:27
But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you...


47 posted on 03/07/2014 6:57:56 PM PST by unlearner (You will never come to know that which you do not know until you first know that you do not know it.)
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To: NKP_Vet
Christ started a very visible Church and that is the Catholic Church, whether protestants want to believe it or not.

Who then was the pope of the OT church? Who was Abraham's bishop? Where were the current dogmas of Rome held in the tents of Jacob?

The belief in the promise given in the Garden of the Christ was the mark of the OT believer. Christ the Rock then as now. John 8:57–59a

The body of Christ, the invisible church, the only one that counts.

that is the Catholic Church, whether protestants want to believe it or not.

And it has demonstrated by its opposition to God's word, that it no longer is whether Catholics want to believe it or not.

48 posted on 03/07/2014 7:27:21 PM PST by xone
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To: Salvation
Again from the Gospel of John -- the leadership of Peter:

That's ignorant...The other apostles sent your supposed leader on a mission journey...Guess he wasn't too much of a leader, was he...

49 posted on 03/07/2014 7:31:57 PM PST by Iscool (Ya mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailer park...)
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To: Salvation
John 20:30-31-- it is in your Bible isn't it? Why don't you believe these things?
50 posted on 03/07/2014 7:40:57 PM PST by xone
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