Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

The Thousand Year Reign of Christ on Earth: Is it Biblical?
Mar 14, 2014 | PhilipFreneau

Posted on 03/14/2014 4:23:52 PM PDT by PhilipFreneau

The Thousand Year Reign of Christ on Earth: Is it Biblical?

This is the passage in question:

"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years." (Rev 20:4-6 KJV)


There are two events noticeably absent from the passage:

1) There is no mention of a reign on earth of any kind.

2) There is no time limit placed on Christ's reign: it only states that those who are resurrected reign with Christ for "1000 years."


The first item should be apparent from some of Jesus' last words on earth:

"My kingdom is not of this world…" (John 18:36 KJV).

… and from some of his first words after his ascension, where he is speaking from his throne:

"To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne." (Rev 3:21 KJV)

But there are numerous other indicators, for example:

"The Lord hath prepared his throne in the heavens; and his kingdom ruleth over all." (Ps 103:19 KJV)

"The Lord is in his holy temple, the Lord's throne is in heaven…" (Ps 11:4 KJV)

"Thus saith the Lord, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?" (Isa 66:1 KJV)

"For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:" (Heb 9:24 KJV)

"But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool." (Heb 10:12-13 KJV)

"Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him." (1 Pet 3:22 KJV)


Many of those same items also explain the second item: that Christ reigns forever. But there are many more:

"Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever… " (Isa 9:7 KJV)

"Thy seed will I establish for ever, and build up thy throne to all generations. Selah." (Ps 89:4 KJV)

"His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven." (Ps 89:29 KJV)

"His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me. It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah." (Ps 89:36-37 KJV)

"The king that faithfully judgeth the poor, his throne shall be established for ever." (Pro 29:14 KJV)


So, it should be apparent that Christ reigns forever from his throne in heaven. But what is the disposition of those resurrected during the first resurrection? Paul explains it this way:

"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words." (1 Th 4:16-18 KJV)

According to Paul, those of the first resurrection are not coming back to earth. Therefore, it is safe to conclude that if there is a limited "1000 year reign" by Christ and his saints on this earth, they will reign from heaven, and not from earthly thrones and/or habitats.

I believe the more logical conclusion is that Christ reigns over the earth from his throne in heaven, forever; and those of the first resurrection reign with him, as servants and priests, either forever (they are with Him forever,) or until their services are no longer needed (for example, until Satan is defeated.)

Philip


TOPICS: Theology
KEYWORDS: error; firstresurrection; freneau; hyperpreterism; millennium; saints; thousandyearreign
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-100101-147 next last

1 posted on 03/14/2014 4:23:53 PM PDT by PhilipFreneau
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: PhilipFreneau

it is.

the saints come back to rule and reign for 1000 years. the world is a mess and needs order. it will take time. during this time there will be mortal and immortal people. people will be able to accept Christ as savior and lord. nations will bring tributes to Christ who reigns from Jerusalem.

even with all this some will not believe. satan is loosed at the end of this period and is able to deceive the unbelievers at this time to try to overthrow God, and they will fail.


2 posted on 03/14/2014 4:29:13 PM PDT by Secret Agent Man (Gone Galt; Not averse to Going Bronson.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: PhilipFreneau

If it is in the Book, it is biblical.


3 posted on 03/14/2014 4:38:01 PM PDT by stars & stripes forever (Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: PhilipFreneau
"There are two events noticeably absent from the passage:

1) There is no mention of a reign on earth of any kind."

Well, if you conveniently end your quote in verse 6, you can make that statement, but if you include the next few verses, you cannot:

"7When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves."

(Rev 20:7-9)

Satan gathers the nations from the four corner of the earth, and they march across the earth to get to Jerusalem, where God's people (spoken of in verses 4-6) are.

4 posted on 03/14/2014 4:48:21 PM PDT by Boogieman
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: PhilipFreneau
You quotation of Rev 20 is a bit short to provide context:

20:1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to othe bottomless pit and a great chain. 2 And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, 3 and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while. 4 Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea. 9 And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them, 10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

The Holy Bible: English Standard Version. (2001). (Re 20:1–10). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

The viewpoint of the author beginning in verse 1 does seem to be the earth. The next shift in viewpoint to heaven is in verse 11. Thus, it is not a stretch to believe that the millennial reign itself is on earth. The issue at hand is how literal these symbols can be taken.

I lean heavily toward the millennial position. Dr. Micheal Heiser has some excellent youtube videos on eschatology. He points out that the verses I have cited above are the primary support for a doctrine of a millennial reign of Christ on earth. So if you don't see it here, then you probably aren't going to see it.

5 posted on 03/14/2014 4:51:25 PM PDT by the_Watchman
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Boogieman

I hope nobody in my church finds out that I am in agreement with the Boogieman!


6 posted on 03/14/2014 4:53:13 PM PDT by the_Watchman
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: PhilipFreneau
and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands

And who is it who beheads unbelievers? This seems to point in a certain direction at this time in history.

7 posted on 03/14/2014 4:54:16 PM PDT by RoosterRedux (The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing -- Socrates)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: PhilipFreneau

Regarding Christ’s throne being in Heaven, you are correct that it is there, as many verses attest. However, none of those verses say that Christ must remain in Heaven for all time. The preceding chapter of Revelation actually depicts Christ, as the rider of the white horse, descending from heaven when he defeats the beast and false prophet:

“11I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war. 12His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. 15Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.”a He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. 16On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:

king of kings and lord of lords.

17And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”

19Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider on the horse and his army. 20But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. 21The rest were killed with the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.”

(Rev 19:11-21)

So, the answer to the apparent problem is simple: Christ is ruling from Heaven now, but at the end of days, He will return to destroy His enemies, and then the 1000 year reign begins.


8 posted on 03/14/2014 4:57:10 PM PDT by Boogieman
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: PhilipFreneau
There are two events noticeably absent from the passage: 1) There is no mention of a reign on earth of any kind. 2) There is no time limit placed on Christ's reign: it only states that those who are resurrected reign with Christ for "1000 years."

True but the use of the terms "living" and "1000 years" is interesting. Heaven transcends space and time. Angels exist in heaven but there is not a notion in scripture of angels living for a period of time and then dying. So the use of "living" and "1000 years" seems to imply this occurred on Earth.

9 posted on 03/14/2014 4:59:53 PM PDT by plain talk
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: PhilipFreneau

“According to Paul, those of the first resurrection are not coming back to earth.”

No, the verse does not actually say that. It says we will be caught up into the air to meet the Lord (who is descending from Heaven, just as Revelation details), and that we shall always be with the Lord. If the Lord is already not in Heaven when we meet Him, but descending to the earth, then why should we assume that we would go straight to Heaven and stay there for all time? That would contradict the verse you quoted, since Christ isn’t in Heaven at that moment, so we would have to leave Him in order to get there.


10 posted on 03/14/2014 5:00:57 PM PDT by Boogieman
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Boogieman

>>>No, the verse does not actually say that. It says we will be caught up into the air to meet the Lord (who is descending from Heaven, just as Revelation details), and that we shall always be with the Lord.<<<

I recommend you read it again. It is clear from that passage that those of the first resurrection never return to earth. There is also nothing else in the New Testament that supports them, or Christ, returning to earth.

Philip


11 posted on 03/14/2014 5:07:53 PM PDT by PhilipFreneau
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: plain talk
>>So the use of "living" and "1000 years" seems to imply this occurred on Earth.<<<

Jesus said:

"I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world." (John 6:51 KJV)

Do they live forever on earth, heaven, …, where?

Philip

12 posted on 03/14/2014 5:14:37 PM PDT by PhilipFreneau
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: PhilipFreneau

**and that we shall always be with the Lord.<<<**

So what happens to the goats?


13 posted on 03/14/2014 5:24:12 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: Boogieman
>>>Well, if you conveniently end your quote in verse 6, you can make that statement, but if you include the next few verses, you cannot:<<<

I would have included those verses if they had anything to do with the first resurrection or the 1000 year reign with Christ.

>>>
(Rev 20:7-9) Satan gathers the nations from the four corner of the earth, and they march across the earth to get to Jerusalem, where God's people (spoken of in verses 4-6) are.<<<

It doesn't say Jerusalem. That is a misnomer, invented out of thin air. What the verse actually says is:

"And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them."

The "breadth of the earth" means the entire earth, according to a dictionary. The camp of the saints is on heavenly mount Sion, as follows:

"Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit." (Eph 2:19-22 KJV)

The "chief cornerstone" mentioned in that passage was laid on mount Sion, as follows:

"Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion." (Ps 2:6 KJV)

"Therefore thus saith the Lord God, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste." (Isa 28:16 KJV)

"Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded." (1 Pet 2:6 KJV)


The "beloved city" is the Church, the new Jerusalem, which is also on mount Sion:

"But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant ..." (Heb 12:22-24 KJV)

You are partly correct in that Satan is coming after God's people; but they are in the Church, not in Jerusalem.

Philip

14 posted on 03/14/2014 5:55:32 PM PDT by PhilipFreneau
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: the_Watchman

>>>I lean heavily toward the millennial position. Dr. Micheal Heiser has some excellent youtube videos on eschatology. He points out that the verses I have cited above are the primary support for a doctrine of a millennial reign of Christ on earth. So if you don’t see it here, then you probably aren’t going to see it.<<<

If it is not in the scripture, I probably won’t see it.

Philip


15 posted on 03/14/2014 5:56:45 PM PDT by PhilipFreneau
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: PhilipFreneau

It’s 2014 AD

What about the other thousand years?


16 posted on 03/14/2014 5:59:30 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: RoosterRedux

>>>And who is it who beheads unbelievers? This seems to point in a certain direction at this time in history.<<<

Nero beheaded a few, including Paul. Peter was hung upside down on a cross, also my Nero. Nero continued his war against the Saints for 3 1/2 years (forty and two months,) until he committed suicide to prevent his own trial and execution.

I believe James was also beheaded, but my knowledge of his disposition is incomplete.

The word “beheaded” could also be symbolic for “silenced.” The entire book is loaded with symbolism. Recall that Nero supposedly banished John to Patmos, which would have silenced him.

Philip


17 posted on 03/14/2014 6:02:51 PM PDT by PhilipFreneau
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: PhilipFreneau

Not all scripture is meant to be taken literally. Here is an example:

Psalm 50:10
New International Version (NIV)
10 for every animal of the forest is mine,
and the cattle on a thousand hills.

It does not mean God owns the cattle on exactly one thousand hill. It means he owns all of creation.


18 posted on 03/14/2014 6:04:15 PM PDT by SeaHawkFan
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Boogieman

>>>The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean.<<<

It never says they come to earth; it only implies that they “fight” those on earth. Recall that Christ used the Roman armies to carry out his judgement on Jerusalem and Israel. He also used the armies of Babylon to carry out his judgement in the old testament; as well as the Assyrian armies against Egypt.

>>>So, the answer to the apparent problem is simple: Christ is ruling from Heaven now, but at the end of days, He will return to destroy His enemies, and then the 1000 year reign begins.<<<

I understand what you are implying, but I cannot find that in the scripture. If it was true, there should be multiple references. Even the “Sword” doesn’t fit: it comes out of the Lord’s mouth. All we have is this symbolic passage from the Revelation, which has generated about a zillion and one different interpretations, and it is still early.

Philip


19 posted on 03/14/2014 6:11:18 PM PDT by PhilipFreneau
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: PhilipFreneau
The rule by Christ and his saints on earth after the 2nd coming is presupposed in the Bible. In the book of Daniel, we see it prophesied in such passages as the following: Daniel 2 pictures a succession of earthly kingdoms, the last one crushed by a stone from heaven, after which it becomes a great “mountain” (“mountain” is prophetic scripture signifies a kingdom, or world empire) filling the whole earth. The “stone” from heaven crushing the last kingdom, the kingdom of antichrist, is the 2nd coming of Jesus Christ -

Dan. 2:35, the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

Daniel 7 also pictures a succession of earthly kingdoms, the last one cast down and repossessed by the saints of the most High. The last earthly kingdom, that of the “beast” or the antichrist, is taken over by the saints.

Dan. 7:18, But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.

Dan. 7:22, Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

Dan. 7:27, And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High

In Rev. 20, that those of the first resurrection are the ones who rule on earth with Christ should be presupposed by Bible believers - such passages as these above from Daniel, for example. It is only those influenced by some variation of philosophic Gnosticism that see otherwise.

20 posted on 03/14/2014 6:18:38 PM PDT by sasportas
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Salvation
>>>So what happens to the goats?<<<

If you are implying why Paul never mentioned them, look at the context. It appears he was trying to comfort those who had already lost loved ones for Christ. Mentioning those who were to be cast into a lake of fire would have been inappropriate, in my opinion.

The first resurrection in Daniel 12 is more detailed:

"And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." (Dan 12:1-2 KJV)

Note that only Daniel's people (Israel) are resurrected; and not all, but "many." That implies a partial resurrection of the children of Israel, which fits the "two resurrection" notion of a first and second resurrection.

Philip

21 posted on 03/14/2014 6:21:46 PM PDT by PhilipFreneau
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: sasportas
I repost:

The rule by Christ and his saints on earth after the 2nd coming is presupposed in the Bible. In the book of Daniel, we see it prophesied in such passages as the following:

Daniel 2 pictures a succession of earthly kingdoms, the last one crushed by a stone from heaven, after which it becomes a great “mountain” (“mountain” is prophetic scripture signifies a kingdom, or world empire) filling the whole earth. The “stone” from heaven crushing the last kingdom, the kingdom of antichrist, is the 2nd coming of Jesus Christ -

Dan. 2:35, the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

Daniel 7 also pictures a succession of earthly kingdoms, the last one cast down and repossessed by the saints of the most High. The last earthly kingdom, that of the “beast” or the antichrist, is taken over by the saints.

Dan. 7:18, But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.

Dan. 7:22, Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

Dan. 7:27, And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High

In Rev. 20, that those of the first resurrection are the ones who rule on earth with Christ should be presupposed by Bible believers - such passages as these above from Daniel, for example. It is only those influenced by some variation of philosophic Gnosticism that see otherwise.

22 posted on 03/14/2014 6:24:18 PM PDT by sasportas
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: sasportas
>>>The rule by Christ and his saints on earth after the 2nd coming is presupposed in the Bible. <<<

I agree the saints will judge the nations (for example, the disciples judge the 12 tribes;) but there is no reference, whatsoever, that states they will judge from the earth at any time. Rather, all references point to their presence with the Lord on heavenly mount Sion, in new Jerusalem. They serve as the foundations for both the holy temple and the beloved city, New Jerusalem.

>>>In the book of Daniel, we see it prophesied in such passages as the following: Daniel 2 pictures a succession of earthly kingdoms, the last one crushed by a stone from heaven, after which it becomes a great “mountain” (“mountain” is prophetic scripture signifies a kingdom, or world empire) filling the whole earth. The “stone” from heaven crushing the last kingdom, the kingdom of antichrist, is the 2nd coming of Jesus Christ <<<

>>>Dan. 2:35, the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.<<<

I have a different interpretation of the four kingdoms in Daniel 2 and 7. I believe they were the Babylonian, the Medo-Persian, the Macedo-Grecian, and the Roman empires. Daniel clearly stated the first was Nebuchadnezzar's:

"Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory. And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold." (Dan 2:37-38 KJV)

The succession of world-dominating kingdoms leads to the other three. The kingdom mentioned in the following verse is the Kingdom of God (or Heaven,) which overrules all other kingdoms:

"And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed." (Dan 7:14 KJV)

That kingdom has existed since (at least) the days of John the Baptist:

"And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force." (Mat 11:12 KJV)

Jesus (and by implication, his saints) took over the kingdom after his resurrection (Acts 2.) He clearly stated he would not eat again until he was in the kingdom (Luke 22:15-16,) and he ate with his disciples after his resurrection (Luke 24:41-43,) implying he was in his kingdom at that time.

>>>In Rev. 20, that those of the first resurrection are the ones who rule on earth with Christ should be presupposed by Bible believers - such passages as these above from Daniel, for example.<<<

That is partly correct. For example, we know that the twelve disciples sit on twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes, as Jesus promised. We also know they were resurrected before the end of their own generation, as Jesus also promised. But there is no mention of their return to earth, whatsoever. Also, to claim that "bible believers" of today are "presupposed" for anything other than the final judgement requires a fantastic stretch of the imagination.

>>>It is only those influenced by some variation of philosophic Gnosticism that see otherwise.<<<

You are not trying to poison the well, are you?

Philip

23 posted on 03/14/2014 7:45:13 PM PDT by PhilipFreneau
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: SeaHawkFan

>>>Not all scripture is meant to be taken literally. Here is an example:
Psalm 50:10
New International Version (NIV)
10 for every animal of the forest is mine,
and the cattle on a thousand hills.
It does not mean God owns the cattle on exactly one thousand hill. It means he owns all of creation.<<<

Exactly! Thanks.

BTW, that last argument was used by John Otis in his excellent 28-part seminar found on Youtube; but accessed sequentially (without the hassle of Youtube) on his website at:

http://triumphantpublications.com/videos.html

He has a well-organized study guide available for a nominal fee. I found it useful for keeping up; but it is not required. John is a Reformed Presbyterian minister. We don’t see eye-to-eye on everything, but I highly recommend his seminar.

Philip


24 posted on 03/14/2014 7:58:20 PM PDT by PhilipFreneau
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: PhilipFreneau

A person does not live forever on Earth — at least not on this earth.

The passage I commented on was “they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years”. This passage said nothing about living forever. There are no 1000 year periods in heaven because there is no time therefore the passage pertains to time / space ... likely Earth.

I am not sure how one interprets that passage as to NOT refer to a period of time on Earth. But as we all know there is no right or wrong way to interpret Revelations. Just lots of opinions. :-) Cheers


25 posted on 03/14/2014 8:02:56 PM PDT by plain talk
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: Salvation

>>>What about the other thousand years?<<<

I agree with SeahawkFan in #18 that a thousand years is just a representative number for long time period, in contrast with all the short time periods specifically mentioned in other parts of the Revelation: e.g. five months; forty and two months; one thousand two hundred and three score days; ten days; and three days and a half. It does seem to be the only time period mentioned where there is not a lot of detail.

LOL! I believe it was John Otis who commented on this verse…

“And Samson said, With the jawbone of an ass, heaps upon heaps, with the jaw of an ass have I slain a thousand men.” (Jud 15:16 KJV)

…with, “Can we be certain it was not 999 men?”

Or, on this one…

“Know therefore that the Lord thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;” (Deu 7:9 KJV)

…with, “What about the 1001st generation?”

Philip


26 posted on 03/14/2014 8:14:45 PM PDT by PhilipFreneau
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies]

To: PhilipFreneau

Yes, He reigns on earth a thousand years, and with a rod of iron.

It will take that much time to sanctify the human race after the Great Tribulation.

You really don’t want the human race to rule all things in its present state, do you?


27 posted on 03/14/2014 8:18:01 PM PDT by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: PhilipFreneau

“It doesn’t say Jerusalem. That is a misnomer, invented out of thin air.”

“The “breadth of the earth” means the entire earth, according to a dictionary. The camp of the saints is on heavenly mount Sion, as follows:”

Hmm, if the “beloved city” is not Jerusalem, but heavenly Jerusalem, then how do the armies of Gog and Magog go across the entire earth to get to heaven? Is it possible for men to walk to heaven? They can walk to Jerusalem, which makes it the only sensible interpretation, unless you can reconcile that.

“You are partly correct in that Satan is coming after God’s people; but they are in the Church, not in Jerusalem.”

How is he going to get to them if they are already permanently in Heaven with Jesus as you say? By the time of those verses, Satan is on earth, and verse 9 says “fire came down from Heaven and devoured them”. If fire came down from Heaven, then they couldn’t be in Heaven, but were obviously on earth. They were gathered from the four corners of the earth, they traveled across the earth, and surrounded God’s beloved city. There is no mention of any teleportation, flying, or ladders to Heaven in any of those verses.


28 posted on 03/14/2014 8:19:47 PM PDT by Boogieman
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: PhilipFreneau
Perhaps you are correct and there is no meaning to be drawn from that verse.

But would you be the one to redirect those men who seek the truth as in "let him who hath understanding..." (Rev 13:18).

Those who have understanding are searching and refining their understanding.

Are you at that point in your understanding that you consider yourself qualified to direct them?

29 posted on 03/14/2014 8:29:55 PM PDT by RoosterRedux (The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing -- Socrates)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

To: plain talk

>>>I am not sure how one interprets that passage as to NOT refer to a period of time on Earth. But as we all know there is no right or wrong way to interpret Revelations. Just lots of opinions. :-) Cheers<<<

LOL! There is a massive Evangelical Book Industry that will smear you if you keep that up. Think what would happen to the sales of the Antichrist-Of-The-Month Book Clubs if people found out the Antichrist is a myth that should have died with Nero in 68 A.D.

Philip


30 posted on 03/14/2014 8:31:15 PM PDT by PhilipFreneau
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 25 | View Replies]

To: PhilipFreneau
QUOTE: I believe the more logical conclusion is that Christ reigns over the earth from his throne in heaven, forever;

Just out of curiosity, what do you do with this:

Rev 21: 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.
3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God.

and this:

Rev 22: 3 No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him.

Our destiny is not heaven, but the new earth, Paradise restored.

31 posted on 03/14/2014 8:38:53 PM PDT by jimmyray
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: PhilipFreneau

Those who think everything in the Bible should be read literally need to read Song of Solomon. Here is just one example (there can be no doubt as to what the woman is referring):

16 Awake, north wind,
and come, south wind!
Blow on my garden,
that its fragrance may spread everywhere.
Let my beloved come into his garden
and taste its choice fruits.


32 posted on 03/14/2014 8:40:04 PM PDT by SeaHawkFan
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: PhilipFreneau
QUOTE: It never says they come to earth; it only implies that they “fight” those on earth.

That verse does not state it explicitly, but these do:

Zachariah 1:2 I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city.
3 Then the Lord will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights on a day of battle.
4 On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south.
5 You will flee by my mountain valley, for it will extend to Azel. You will flee as you fled from the earthquakea in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the Lord my God will come, and all the holy ones with him.

33 posted on 03/14/2014 8:42:56 PM PDT by jimmyray
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 19 | View Replies]

To: RoosterRedux

>>>Are you at that point in your understanding that you consider yourself qualified to direct them?<<<

I will answer that question for you, when you answer this one:

How many Freepers have you asked that question, before today?

Philip


34 posted on 03/14/2014 8:44:15 PM PDT by PhilipFreneau
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 29 | View Replies]

To: PhilipFreneau

“It never says they come to earth; it only implies that they “fight” those on earth. Recall that Christ used the Roman armies to carry out his judgement on Jerusalem and Israel. He also used the armies of Babylon to carry out his judgement in the old testament; as well as the Assyrian armies against Egypt.”

These verses clearly say Christ himself slays His enemies, who are on earth, with the two-edged sword that proceeds from His mouth. The armies of Heaven are following him, and the Beast, and the kings of the earth gathered to fight Christ and His army. The birds are called to feast on the corpses, so this is obviously a real battle, where birds live, on earth. I can’t see how anyone can interpret it another way unless they just really don’t want to believe what the text says.

“I understand what you are implying, but I cannot find that in the scripture. If it was true, there should be multiple references.”

There are! How many verses do you need about the Second Coming in order to believe He is actually coming back?

” Revelation 1:7 ESV
Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen. “

” Hebrews 9:28 ESV

So Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him. “

” Joel 3:1-2

“For behold, in those days and at that time, when I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem, I will gather all the nations and bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat. And I will enter into judgment with them there, on behalf of my people and my heritage Israel, because they have scattered them among the nations and have divided up my land, “

” Acts 1:9-11 ESV

And when he had said these things, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight. And while they were gazing into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white robes, and said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.” “

If Jesus wasn’t coming back, why do all the verses say He is?

“Even the “Sword” doesn’t fit: it comes out of the Lord’s mouth.”

Yes, that is symbolic, obviously, but 2 Thessalonians has a parallel passage that gives us more information:

“2 Thessalonians 2:8 ESV

And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming.”

In one verse, the beast is killed with the two edged sword proceeding from Christ’s mouth, and in the other the lawless one is killed with the breath of His mouth. I think they are both poetic ways of saying that Christ will slay His enemies with a word, as He has the power of God.


35 posted on 03/14/2014 8:46:14 PM PDT by Boogieman
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 19 | View Replies]

To: stars & stripes forever
QUOTE:According to Paul, those of the first resurrection are not coming back to earth.

Paul does not state where they go after they meet the Lord in the air, he simply states "... to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. "

This passage has no indication whatsoever about where they go after meeting in the air, only that they will remain together forever.

36 posted on 03/14/2014 8:47:08 PM PDT by jimmyray
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: Cvengr

>>>Yes, He reigns on earth a thousand years, and with a rod of iron.<<<

Where does it say the Lord reigns from earth? There are literally dozens of verses that say or imply otherwise.

>>>It will take that much time to sanctify the human race after the Great Tribulation.<<<

The great tribulation occurred between 66 and 70 AD in the city of Jerusalem, exactly in the generation that Jesus said it would.

Philip


37 posted on 03/14/2014 8:50:03 PM PDT by PhilipFreneau
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: PhilipFreneau; Boogieman
Regarding who does the destroying in Revelations 19, consider this:

Rev 19:13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.
14 The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.” He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty.

And then understand it from this Passage in Isaiah :

Iaiah 63: 1Who is this coming from Edom, from Bozrah, with his garments stained crimson? Who is this, robed in splendor, striding forward in the greatness of his strength? “It is I, proclaiming victory, mighty to save.”
2 Why are your garments red, like those of one treading the winepress?
3“I have trodden the winepress alone; from the nations no one was with me. I trampled them in my anger and trod them down in my wrath; their blood spattered my garments, and I stained all my clothing.
4 It was for me the day of vengeance; the year for me to redeem had come.
5 I looked, but there was no one to help, I was appalled that no one gave support; so my own arm achieved salvation for me, and my own wrath sustained me.
6 I trampled the nations in my anger; in my wrath I made them drunk and poured their blood on the ground.”

Jesus tramples the peoples of the Earth by himself, on the earth!

38 posted on 03/14/2014 9:06:12 PM PDT by jimmyray
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 19 | View Replies]

To: PhilipFreneau

So which are you, Amillennialist or Postmillennialist?


39 posted on 03/14/2014 9:28:41 PM PDT by sasportas
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: sasportas

How about PanMillenialist: It will all pan out in the end.... ;-)


40 posted on 03/14/2014 9:44:08 PM PDT by Kevmo ("A person's a person, no matter how small" ~Horton Hears a Who)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 39 | View Replies]

To: Boogieman
>>>Hmm, if the “beloved city” is not Jerusalem, but heavenly Jerusalem, then how do the armies of Gog and Magog go across the entire earth to get to heaven? Is it possible for men to walk to heaven? They can walk to Jerusalem, which makes it the only sensible interpretation, unless you can reconcile that.<<<

It is a spiritual war. It is occurring everywhere. Recall this verse:

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." (Mat 10:28)

I learned that verse the first day I read the Bible nearly four decades ago, and it has played a part in my interpretation, since.

>>>How is he going to get to them if they are already permanently in Heaven with Jesus as you say? By the time of those verses, Satan is on earth, and verse 9 says “fire came down from Heaven and devoured them”. If fire came down from Heaven, then they couldn’t be in Heaven, but were obviously on earth. They were gathered from the four corners of the earth, they traveled across the earth, and surrounded God’s beloved city. There is no mention of any teleportation, flying, or ladders to Heaven in any of those verses.<<<

I see you are not interested in a mature discussion. When you have anything to add to the discussion, get back with me. I will be more than obliging.

This is a hint: Christians everywhere are part of the Church, the new Jerusalem, which is located on mount Sion in heaven. They are also part of the Holy Temple, which is also found on mount Sion in heaven. Satan knows it. Many Christians do not.

This is another hint: this earth will be around forever, and generations of people will come and go, forever. Satan knows it. Many Christians do not.

This is another hint: the Church is not going anywhere. Christ gave his life for the Church, and it is here to stay. If was not an afterthought. Satan knows it. Many Christians do not.

This is another hint: Israel is no longer God's chosen people, and has not been for about 2000 years. Satan knows it. Many Christians do not.

Philip

41 posted on 03/14/2014 9:47:10 PM PDT by PhilipFreneau
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 28 | View Replies]

To: sasportas

>>>So which are you, Amillennialist or Postmillennialist?<<<

I thought I was a postmillennialist until I took a test that one our Freepers had linked on his page. I scored higher as an amillennialist, and slightly lower as a postmillennialist and preterist. I really don’t know, except I am certain I am not a dispensationalist or futurist.

Philip


42 posted on 03/14/2014 10:03:55 PM PDT by PhilipFreneau
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 39 | View Replies]

To: PhilipFreneau
QUOTE: "This is another hint: this earth will be around forever, and generations of people will come and go, forever. Satan knows it. Many Christians do not."

Not completely accurate. To wit:

2 Peter 3:10...The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.
13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.

and

Rev 21: 4‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

The core of the earth may remain, but it's surface will be totally consumed with fire. Jesus will create the New Heavens and the New Earth (Rev 21:1), where there will be no more death. Generations will no longer "come and go" as you claim.

43 posted on 03/14/2014 10:24:20 PM PDT by jimmyray
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 41 | View Replies]

To: PhilipFreneau

It’s really pretty simple, if you believe you are in the millennial of Rev. 20 now, a spiritualized thousand years, then you are an amillennialist.

If you believe the world is getting better and better (not worse and worse), more and more Christian every day (not more anti-Christian(, you are not in the millennial yet, it will be realized when Christianity has Christianized the world, at the end of which (thousand years) the 2nd coming takes place, then you are a Post-millennialist.

You can’t be both, either

you are in the millennial now...

or you are not in it yet, at the end of which the 2nd coming takes place.


44 posted on 03/14/2014 10:24:26 PM PDT by sasportas
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 42 | View Replies]

To: PhilipFreneau
QUOTE: "This is another hint: this earth will be around forever, and generations of people will come and go, forever. Satan knows claims it. Many Christians do not know it is a lie."

Fixed it for you.

45 posted on 03/14/2014 10:27:43 PM PDT by jimmyray
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 41 | View Replies]

To: PhilipFreneau; Boogieman

25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that HE SHALL STAND(emphasis added) at the latter day upon the earth: 19:26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God 19:27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.” (Job 19:25-27 KJV)

Plenty of Old Testament references to Christ who someday shall rule on the Earth, Phillip, if you are having trouble understanding the plain language in Revelation.


46 posted on 03/14/2014 10:56:29 PM PDT by mdmathis6 (American Christians can help America best by remembering that we are Heaven's citizens first!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 19 | View Replies]

To: jimmyray

We have an indication in Revelation 19. Key words marriage supper; clothed in white linen mentioned twice:

Revelation 19:6-14 NKJV

And I heard, as it were, the voice of a great multitude, as the sound of many waters and as the sound of mighty thunderings, saying, “Alleluia! For the Lord God Omnipotent reigns! Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.” And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints. Then he said to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!’ ”

And he said to me, “These are the true sayings of God.” And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus.

Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.” Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns.

He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses.


47 posted on 03/14/2014 11:10:37 PM PDT by redleghunter
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 36 | View Replies]

To: sasportas; PhilipFreneau; roamer_1; metmom; CynicalBear; Iscool; dartuser

If you have not seen it yet, Phil believes the second coming of Jesus Christ is time past. He believes it happened in 70AD.


48 posted on 03/14/2014 11:18:22 PM PDT by redleghunter
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 44 | View Replies]

To: redleghunter
QUOTE:We have an indication in Revelation 19. Key words marriage supper; clothed in white linen mentioned twice:
Revelation 19:6-14 NKJV

I don't understand the point your making, as you give no indication of the context for this verse in the dialogue above. Are you referring to a previous post of mine? Are you confirming or disputing an argument I made?

49 posted on 03/15/2014 4:44:23 AM PDT by jimmyray
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 47 | View Replies]

To: Boogieman
"Well, if you conveniently end your quote in verse 6, you can make that statement, but if you include the next few verses, you cannot:

Hmmmm. If that's the rule then apply it accross the board starting with John 3:16.

Read the next few after that verse:

John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world, to judge the world, but that the world may be saved by him.
John 3:18 He that believeth in him is not judged. But he that doth not believe, is already judged : because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 3:19 And this is the judgment : because the light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than the light : for their works were evil.
John 3:20 For every one that doth evil hateth the light, and cometh not to the light, that his works may not be reproved.
John 3:21 But he that doth truth, cometh to the light, that his works may be made manifest, because they are done in God.

So much for "Faith Alone" and "Once Saved Always Saved" both unless you make an exception to your own rule of reading verses in context.

50 posted on 03/15/2014 5:05:34 AM PDT by Rashputin (Jesus Christ doesn't evacuate His troops, He leads them to victory.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-100101-147 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson