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Who Needs Works?
What The Bible Says About ^ | Rev John Odhner

Posted on 03/15/2014 5:31:38 AM PDT by DaveMSmith

It seems to be a matter of common sense to say that good people will go to heaven and evil people will go to hell. Something would be terribly wrong if God could send an innocent, sincere, charitable, helpful person to hell. Yet sometimes people suggest that a person's salvation depends upon his faith alone, and not upon the good things he does, or how he lives, or whether he obeys the Ten Commandments. The Bible never mentions "faith alone" (except in one passage which says faith alone is dead--James 2:24) The concept first came into existence during the Reformation, when Luther and other Protestants split away from the Roman Catholic Church. Luther's concept of how a person gets to heaven was different from what had been taught by the Catholic Church. Luther's phrase "faith alone" emphasized this difference.

In the early Christian Church there was no controversy about whether a person could be saved by faith alone without obeying the Lord and living well. Early Christians knew that loving the Lord meant obeying His commandments, (Matthew 19:17; John 14:21; 15:10) and that salvation depended on bearing fruit (that is, doing good works). (Matthew 7:19; 16:27; 21:43; Luke 3:9; John 5:29; 15:1-16; Revelation 20:13; 22:12) In fact there are so many passages which say that a good life is necessary, that it would be quite a contradiction if the Bible did say that faith alone is enough.

Probably the closest the Bible comes to mentioning "faith alone" is Paul's phrase, "man is justified by faith without the works of the law." (Romans 3:28) Sometimes this phrase has been used to defend or promote the idea that man is saved by faith alone. But if we look at Paul's statement in context we can see that Paul was simply saying that you can be saved without being a Jew. (Read Romans 3:28-31) Some early Christians felt that to be a good Christian, one should obey all the ritual laws of the Jewish Church. "Certain men came down from Judea and taught the brethren, `Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.'" (Acts 15:1) Now Paul knew that it made no difference to the Lord whether a person was circumcised or not, so he made it clear that it is not necessary to keep the laws about washing, sacrifices, offerings, holy days, diet, and circumcision. (Colossians 2:16; Galatians 2; Romans 3; 2:25-28; Hebrews 8-10) "Does this blessedness then come only on the circumcised, and not on the uncircumcised also?" (Romans 4:9) "Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what counts." (1 Corinthians 7:19) "In Jesus Christ neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working by love." (Galatians 5:6) Paul says here not "faith alone," but "faith which works by love". Faith, works and love are all necessary.

These and other references make it clear that when Paul said a man is saved by faith without the works of the law, he meant that a person is saved without circumcision and other ritualistic works. There are other laws, which relate not to ritual but to living well, as for example the Ten Commandments and laws such as "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." (Leviticus 19:18) Paul made it clear that it was necessary to keep these laws in order to be saved. He said, "Do not be deceived, neither fornicators, nor idolaters, not adulterers, nor homosexuals... nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God." (1 Corinthians 6:9,10; see also Galatians 5:19-20) Paul had no thought at all of doing away with the law: "Do we abrogate the law through faith? Far from it! We establish the law." (Romans 3:31) He knew that salvation depended on action, not just on faith: "Not the hearers of the law shall be justified by God, but the doers of the law shall be justified." (Romans 2:13) And he taught that every loving person will obey God's law: "Love does no harm to a neighbor: therefore love is the fulfillment of he law." (Romans 13:10)

It is clear from the passages above that according to Paul, we must keep the Lord's commandments and live a good life in order to be saved. This agrees completely with what other disciples said about living well. What could be more direct that this statement of James: "What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? That faith cannot save him, can it?... Faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.... By works a person is justified, and not by faith alone." (James 2:14-24) John showed that you can't have faith unless you love others when he said, "He who does not love does not know God, for God is love." (1 John 4:8) He also taught that we can and should obey God's commands: "This is the love of God, that we keep His commandments: and His commandments are not grievous." (1 John 5:3)

For any Christian, the way to eternal life is to follow Jesus and do as He says. And what He says is very plain: "If you will enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17) This is not only the way to life, but the way to happiness: "If you know these things, happy are you if you do them." (John 13:17) It is the way to love the Lord: "He who has My commandments, and keeps them, he it is who loves Me." (John 14:21) And it is the way to be His friend: "You are my friends if you do whatever I command you." (John 15:14)


TOPICS: Ministry/Outreach; Other Christian
KEYWORDS: commandments; faithalone; newchurch
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1 posted on 03/15/2014 5:31:38 AM PDT by DaveMSmith
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To: DaveMSmith

Unless a person has become a reprobate, works does not factor in our salvation. However, I do think God wants us to be continually improving.


2 posted on 03/15/2014 5:47:00 AM PDT by Jonty30 (What Islam and secularism have in common is that they are both death cults)
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To: DaveMSmith
Something would be terribly wrong if God could send an innocent, sincere, charitable, helpful person to hell.

Only when judging by man's standards. There is no such thing in the eyes of our perfect God.

3 posted on 03/15/2014 5:50:28 AM PDT by Pan_Yan (Who told you that you were naked? Genesis 3:11)
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To: Jonty30
1 Kings 8:46 "When they sin against You (for there is no one who does not sin), and You become angry with them and deliver them to the enemy, and they take them captive to the land of the enemy, far or near; 47 yet when they come to themselves in the land where they were carried captive, and repent, and make supplication to You in the land of those who took them captive, saying, 'We have sinned and done wrong, we have committed wickedness';
4 posted on 03/15/2014 5:54:18 AM PDT by DaveMSmith (Evil Comes from Falsity, So Share the Truth)
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To: DaveMSmith

We are saved wholly and completely by grace through the object of our faith—The Lord Jesus. And we are saved unto good works. Until we are saved we have no good works to offer a holy holy holy God. The Bible likens our best works to “filthy rags” and says that not one understands, is righteous, seeks after God, or does good...”no, not one.” Man at his very best is still “dead in trespasses and sins.”

“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.”
—Ephesians 2:8-10

A man who has been born again will indeed produce good works because his nature has been changed. However, a man who has the miracle of the new birth wrought in him by the Holy Spirit, a man in Christ, is fitted perfectly for heaven.

“But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:” (1 Cor 1:30)


5 posted on 03/15/2014 6:17:54 AM PDT by .45 Long Colt
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To: DaveMSmith

Our salvation is y the grace of God.... period. We know a tree by its fruits.... therefore once saved by God’ grace. we would want to do His will. All the rest is fuzz and fluff


6 posted on 03/15/2014 6:19:34 AM PDT by Nifster
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To: .45 Long Colt
How does one become saved? How is one born again?

Repentance?

7 posted on 03/15/2014 6:23:55 AM PDT by DaveMSmith (Evil Comes from Falsity, So Share the Truth)
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To: DaveMSmith

Works are the fruits of Salvation.
Saying someone is good is too subjective to be a basis for belief.


8 posted on 03/15/2014 6:27:31 AM PDT by AppyPappy
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To: DaveMSmith

God does the Saving, not man. With man, it is impossible to be Saved. With God, all things are possible.


9 posted on 03/15/2014 6:28:18 AM PDT by AppyPappy
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To: AppyPappy

bflr


10 posted on 03/15/2014 6:29:55 AM PDT by Loud Mime (Character matters for those who understand the concept)
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To: AppyPappy; .45 Long Colt
Colossians 3:8 But now you yourselves are to put off all these: anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy language out of your mouth. 9 Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds, 10 and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him, 11 where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all.
11 posted on 03/15/2014 6:33:18 AM PDT by DaveMSmith (Evil Comes from Falsity, So Share the Truth)
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To: DaveMSmith
“Christians have often disputed as to whether what leads the Christian home is good actions, or Faith in Christ. I have no right really to speak on such a difficult question, but it does seem to me like asking which blade in a pair of scissors is most necessary.”

~ C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity


12 posted on 03/15/2014 6:35:45 AM PDT by Joe 6-pack (Qui me amat, amat et canem meum.)
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To: DaveMSmith

Lemmie see, now.......

Just who is it that will determine where your soul will go?

Who dat?

Gee, I had it right here on the tip of my tongue a minit ago.....


13 posted on 03/15/2014 6:46:11 AM PDT by Flintlock ( islam is a LIE, mohammed was a CRIMINAL, sharia is POISON.)
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To: DaveMSmith

We are saved by His grace through the means of faith in Christ Jesus. Regeneration is something God does, it’s not something we accomplish.

Read carefully what Christ said to Nicodemus in John 3. He tells him we must be born again, a statement which puzzled Nicodemus. Then He says in verse 6 “That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.” Being born again is something done in us by the Holy Spirit.

In light of the free will beliefs of most people, what Christ said next in verses 7&8 is perhaps the most astonishing part of that passage:

“Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.”

He likened the Holy Spirit to the wind and said no one knows where it comes from or where it goes, and so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Just as God told Moses in Exodus and just as Paul reiterated in Romans 9, God has mercy on whom He has mercy. Men cannot decide by their own free will to be saved. We are born again by the will of a God. (John 1:13)

Christians can go forth spreading the good news with great confidence for when His sheep hear his voice they will follow Him. (See John 10) We know that in the day of His power we are made willing to believe. (Psalm 110:3) Those who don’t believe were not ordained unto eternal life. (Acts 13:48)


14 posted on 03/15/2014 6:55:08 AM PDT by .45 Long Colt
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To: .45 Long Colt

So the question still stands... what is it we DO? Sit slack jawed waiting? What is the process?


15 posted on 03/15/2014 6:59:31 AM PDT by DaveMSmith (Evil Comes from Falsity, So Share the Truth)
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To: DaveMSmith

God saves us by giving us our faith. After accepting this gift, do we not want to do everything for Him? cleaning, playing, reading, sharing, giving, being friendly to those who spit on us, taking care of others, everything. Do all to glorify His name. All. It’s what people who are in love do in response to that love.


16 posted on 03/15/2014 7:01:07 AM PDT by huldah1776
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To: DaveMSmith

First, you have to determine if we have commandments or not. In my personal theological opinion, too many people treat the commandments as suggestions from which they grovel for forgiveness.

If the Almighty is perfect, He will make sense.


17 posted on 03/15/2014 7:23:29 AM PDT by Loud Mime (Character matters for those who understand the concept)
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To: Loud Mime

I agree. Paul lists over 95 terms of what a Christian should not be doing.


18 posted on 03/15/2014 7:28:35 AM PDT by DaveMSmith (Evil Comes from Falsity, So Share the Truth)
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To: DaveMSmith

**Who Needs Works?**

We all do.

Even God worked six days and then rested on the seventh day.


19 posted on 03/15/2014 7:38:48 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Joe 6-pack

BTTT!


20 posted on 03/15/2014 7:39:57 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: .45 Long Colt
Jesus talked about "works" a lot.

Gospel Mt 7:7-12

Jesus said to his disciples:
“Ask and it will be given to you;
seek and you will find;
knock and the door will be opened to you.
For everyone who asks, receives; and the one who seeks, finds;
and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.
Which one of you would hand his son a stone
when he asked for a loaf of bread,
or a snake when he asked for a fish?
If you then, who are wicked,
know how to give good gifts to your children,
how much more will your heavenly Father give good things
to those who ask him.

“Do to others whatever you would have them do to you.
This is the law and the prophets.”


Gospel Mk 9:41-50

Jesus said to his disciples:
“Anyone who gives you a cup of water to drink
because you belong to Christ,
amen, I say to you, will surely not lose his reward.

“Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin,
it would be better for him if a great millstone
were put around his neck
and he were thrown into the sea.
If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off.
It is better for you to enter into life maimed
than with two hands to go into Gehenna,
into the unquenchable fire.
And if your foot causes you to sin, cut if off.
It is better for you to enter into life crippled
than with two feet to be thrown into Gehenna.
And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out.
Better for you to enter into the Kingdom of God with one eye
than with two eyes to be thrown into Gehenna,
where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.

“Everyone will be salted with fire.
Salt is good, but if salt becomes insipid,
with what will you restore its flavor?
Keep salt in yourselves and you will have peace with one another.”


Gospel Mt 25:31-46

Jesus said to his disciples:
“When the Son of Man comes in his glory,
and all the angels with him,
he will sit upon his glorious throne,
and all the nations will be assembled before him.
And he will separate them one from another,
as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
Then the king will say to those on his right,
‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father.
Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
For I was hungry and you gave me food,
I was thirsty and you gave me drink,
a stranger and you welcomed me,
naked and you clothed me,
ill and you cared for me,
in prison and you visited me.’
Then the righteous will answer him and say,
‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you,
or thirsty and give you drink?
When did we see you a stranger and welcome you,
or naked and clothe you?
When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’
And the king will say to them in reply,
‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did
for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’
Then he will say to those on his left,
‘Depart from me, you accursed,
into the eternal fire prepared for the Devil and his angels.
For I was hungry and you gave me no food,
I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
a stranger and you gave me no welcome,
naked and you gave me no clothing,
ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’
Then they will answer and say,
‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty
or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison,
and not minister to your needs?’
He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you,
what you did not do for one of these least ones,
you did not do for me.’
And these will go off to eternal punishment,
but the righteous to eternal life.”


21 posted on 03/15/2014 8:04:24 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Nifster

“Faith without works is dead”

St. James


22 posted on 03/15/2014 8:07:42 AM PDT by G Larry (There's the Beef!)
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To: DaveMSmith

Accept and believe. The Good News Gospel as summed by Paul is; I in Christ, Christ in me. Christ came as the new Adam offering sinners a choice, either stay in the old fallen Adam which we all are by inheritance, or choose to be in the New Adam(Christ). The New Adam was able to do something the old Adam couldn’t/didn’t—obey the Law perfectly and offer Himself as a sacrifice for the penalty of sin for EVERYONE. That is the ‘I in Christ part’. His life and death are credited to us—His free gift of grace. If one accepts and believes this then the ‘Christ in me’ part begins. Our nature will begin to change as Christ takes control of our life. We will become like that ‘fruit tree’, beginning to produce ‘good fruit’ because that is what a good fruit tree does ‘naturally’. A fruit tree doesn’t produce fruit to become a fruit tree, it produces because it is what it is. Our good works will become like our breathing, done fairly much unconsciously, naturally. Works won’t save us in and of themselves but are evidence of our I in Christ, Christ in me condition. Accept and believe.


23 posted on 03/15/2014 8:17:45 AM PDT by yadent
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To: yadent

Good works won’t save us but bad works will condemn us. I’ll go with the good works.


24 posted on 03/15/2014 8:23:02 AM PDT by ex-snook (God is Love)
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To: DaveMSmith
A Catholic Response to Sola Fide: Saved by Faith Alone (Ecumenical)
Who Can be Saved?
Saved by Faith or Works?
The Works of Christ Progress: Archbishop Nienstedt Calls Faithful to be 100% Catholic
Faith and Works [Ecumenical]
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Faith and Works
There is No Contradiction Between Faith and Works, Pope Asserts

25 posted on 03/15/2014 8:28:28 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: DaveMSmith

The absolutely inflexible Law crushes us and pushes us to the ONLY alternative: “All who call upon the name of The Lord will be saved.” Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, how easy was it to look upon! Yet I’m sure plenty said “that’s the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard. No thanks!”

Many don’t want a salvation they can’t work for and prove themselves worthy of.


26 posted on 03/15/2014 8:59:35 AM PDT by avenir (I'm pessimistic about man, but I'm optimistic about GOD!)
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To: DaveMSmith
Galatians 2:15-21 We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

But if, in our endeavor to be justified in Christ, we too were found to be sinners, is Christ then a servant of sin? Certainly not! For if I rebuild what I tore down, I prove myself to be a transgressor. For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.

Galatians 3:1-29 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified. Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith— just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”?

Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.” Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.” But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.” Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”— so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.

To give a human example, brothers: even with a man-made covenant, no one annuls it or adds to it once it has been ratified. Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ. This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void. For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.

Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary. Now an intermediary implies more than one, but God is one.

Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law. But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.

27 posted on 03/15/2014 9:07:44 AM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith....)
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To: DaveMSmith

I do tend to sit slack jawed a lot; but it does seem to help to read the Bible and pray the Lord’s Prayer, plus. - Work out our own salvation with fear and trembling, and, oh yeah, LOOK UP!


28 posted on 03/15/2014 9:08:48 AM PDT by Twinkie (John 3:16)
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To: DaveMSmith

"Not every one that saith to Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of My Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 7:21

"But according to thy hardness and impenitent heart, thou treasurest up to thyself wrath, against the day of wrath, and revelation of the just judgment of God. Who will render to every man according to his works. To them indeed, who according to patience in good work, seek glory and honour and incorruption, eternal life: But to them that are contentious, and who obey not the truth, but give credit to iniquity, wrath and indignation." Romans 2:5-8

"For we must all be manifested before the judgement seat of Christ, that every one may receive the proper things of the body, according as he hath done, whether it be good or evil." 2 Corinthians 5:10

"Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers be transformed as the ministers of justice, whose end shall be according to their works." 2 Corinthians 11:15

"You are made void of Christ, you who are justified in the law: you are fallen from grace. For we in spirit, by faith, wait for the hope of justice. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision: but faith that worketh by charity." Galatians 5:4-6

"For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God; Not of works, that no man may glory. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus in good works, which God hath prepared that we should walk in them." Ephesians 2:8-10

"Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but much more now in my absence,) with fear and trembling work out your salvation. For it is God who worketh in you, both to will and to accomplish, according to His good will." Philippians 2:12-13

"Knowing that you shall receive of the Lord the reward of inheritance. Serve ye the Lord Christ. For he that doth wrong, shall receive for that which he hath done wrongfully: and there is no respect of persons with God." Colossians 3:24-25

"What shall it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but hath not works? Shall faith be able to save him?" James 2:14

"So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself." James 2:17

"But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?" James 2:20

"Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?" James 2:24

"For even as the body without the spirit is dead; so also faith without works is dead." James 2:26

"And if you invoke as Father Him who, without respect of persons, judgeth according to every one's work: converse in fear during the time of your sojourning here." 1 Peter 1:17

"And I saw the dead, great and small, standing in the presence of the throne, and the books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged by those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and hell gave up their dead that were in them; and they were judged every one according to their works." Apocalypse 20:12-13

"And account the longsuffering of our Lord, salvation; as also our most dear brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, hath written to you: As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction." 2 Peter 3:15-16


29 posted on 03/15/2014 9:25:50 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: ex-snook

Works are only an outward indication of your inner condition. Works won’t change your inner self.


30 posted on 03/15/2014 9:41:05 AM PDT by yadent
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To: DaveMSmith

Both faith and works should be examined for success and failure.

Faith needs to be, dare I say, “holistic”? That is, a combination of spiritual, emotional, intellectual, and physical things acting in concert to express faith. Importantly, faith is not, nor can ever be, pure, because we are earthly creatures, and as we are dynamic beings, so is our faith. It has all the facets and flaws of a diamond.

Works, on the other hand, are of two things: intent and result. While you might intend to do good works, you may not be good at it, and may cause more harm than good. Likewise, your intent may be neutral or even harmful, but the result may be beneficial and helpful.

For instance, a teacher does not just give their students the answers, but instead sets up barriers that students must overcome to find their own answers. Even in the short term this produces the best results.


31 posted on 03/15/2014 10:20:03 AM PDT by yefragetuwrabrumuy (WoT News: Rantburg.com)
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To: Salvation
"Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?" James 2:24

"For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God; Not of works, that no man may glory. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus in good works, which God hath prepared that we should walk in them." Ephesians 2:8-10

You posted both of these and they are contradictions...Which one is the truth???

32 posted on 03/15/2014 10:21:05 AM PDT by Iscool (Ya mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailer park...)
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To: avenir
"Many don’t want a salvation they can’t work for and prove themselves worthy of."

And a far, far, greater number want a salvation that doesn't inconvenience them by requiring them to take up their cross and follow Christ.

Such folks rely on a few magic words and thereafter seem to enjoy mocking those who believe a Christian should try and live like Christ and bragging about their own freedom to "go along to get along" without bothering with details like how they live their life.

33 posted on 03/15/2014 10:28:33 AM PDT by Rashputin (Jesus Christ doesn't evacuate His troops, He leads them to victory.)
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To: yadent

“Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?” James 2:24


34 posted on 03/15/2014 10:31:06 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Rashputin

You won’t find me mocking a believer who wants to “live godly in Christ Jesus”! I want to. You want to. But we are heirs of the Promise, not the Law. The Law was added because of transgressions, and did not set aside the Promise. Paul spells this out in Romans.

“The power of sin is the Law”. Grace is the only option for believers, and I suggest again that, just as many Israelites bizarrely refused to look at the lifted up serpent, so do many today refuse to look to Christ ALONE. He did the work. Resting in that finished work allows a person to freely “work hard in The Lord” without falling under the curse of the Law.


35 posted on 03/15/2014 11:26:07 AM PDT by avenir (I'm pessimistic about man, but I'm optimistic about GOD!)
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To: avenir

Christ and the New Testament fulfill the Law, correct? So do you believe the New Testament?


36 posted on 03/15/2014 11:37:22 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: avenir

“Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?” James 2:24


37 posted on 03/15/2014 11:46:43 AM PDT by Rashputin (Jesus Christ doesn't evacuate His troops, He leads them to victory.)
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To: DaveMSmith

A NT reference in support of you 1 Kings 8:46:

I John 2:1-6 NKJV

My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.


38 posted on 03/15/2014 11:53:29 AM PDT by redleghunter
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To: DaveMSmith; daniel1212

Acts of the Apostles has many examples of those who hear the Gospel believe, received the Holy Spirit and were baptized. Then go on as a new creation in Christ to do His Will and produce fruit. In most cases the easier life they previously lived became challenging and dangerous.


39 posted on 03/15/2014 11:59:25 AM PDT by redleghunter
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To: DaveMSmith

>>Colossians 3:8 But now you yourselves are to put off all these: anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy language out of your mouth. 9 Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds, 10 and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him, 11 where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all.<<

Amen! And this as well

II Corinthians 5:16-19 NKJV

Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.


40 posted on 03/15/2014 12:04:43 PM PDT by redleghunter
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To: G Larry

I wrote a college paper on this whole subject. Don’t make me drag it out.

One can pick and chose a single bit here and there to ‘bolster’ whatever argument they want. It doesn’t include context, general teachings of the NT, or even analysis of who the audience was that the original writings were for.

I will not argue with you over this. Grace is given by God. I have already commented on the fruit of the tree.

Grace is not faith


41 posted on 03/15/2014 12:08:31 PM PDT by Nifster
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To: DaveMSmith

I recommend examining Acts 16. The jailer witnessed the Power of God and asked the same question.


42 posted on 03/15/2014 12:09:19 PM PDT by redleghunter
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To: Salvation

Agreed. How do we all measure up to those perfect standards? Paul tells the Law is our tutor. Tutor in the sense of exposing our sins and imperfections.

I agree we all must be dragged up the sharp rocks of Mt Sinai before the deliverance of Mt Zion makes any sense.


43 posted on 03/15/2014 12:14:25 PM PDT by redleghunter
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To: DaveMSmith

Thanks for the very helpful and informative post. I have always been suspicious of people who say “faith alone” saves. I was saved by grace when I didn’t believe (or trust) God. All I had done was to ask his help.

There is an preacher who say’s “faith alone” and who has had some shady extramarital affairs. I would like to know what amends and forgiveness he has done (or not done) around his infidelities.


44 posted on 03/15/2014 12:17:44 PM PDT by CPO retired
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To: avenir; daniel1212; metmom; boatbums

>>Many don’t want a salvation they can’t work for and prove themselves worthy of.<<

Indeed. On the other hand it may be a function of some don’t want to give up the darkness for light. So believing they can redeem themselves by works they think any good works or penance will overwhelm the bad. I encountered such in conversations with Iraqi Muslims.

Your reference to Moses lifting up the serpent in the wilderness is VERY thought provoking. In that some establish God’s plan of salvation seems too “easy” and there must be “more.” Such thoughts establish a mindset that we know better than God.


45 posted on 03/15/2014 12:23:53 PM PDT by redleghunter
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To: avenir; .45 Long Colt; Twinkie
2 Cor 7:10 For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death.
46 posted on 03/15/2014 12:31:32 PM PDT by DaveMSmith (Evil Comes from Falsity, So Share the Truth)
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To: Iscool; daniel1212; metmom; boatbums

Hardly a contradiction. James is railing against dead faith as any good pastor should be doing if observed in their assembly. Obviously James saw some proclaiming faith in Christ but allowing fellow believers to go naked and cold. How could such a regenerated heart pass a brother in need? I think that was his point and James is right in that matter. Jesus commanded the disciples to love each other as HE loved them. Tall order there. James was pointing IMO if we love Christ we will do what He told us to do. And each according to their God given abilities.


47 posted on 03/15/2014 12:35:03 PM PDT by redleghunter
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To: .45 Long Colt

What then is the point of judgement? As in, Last Judgement? As in, sheep and goats? As in, wheat and chaff?


48 posted on 03/15/2014 12:38:18 PM PDT by Jim Noble (When strong, avoid them. Attack their weaknesses. Emerge to their surprise. H)
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To: Rashputin

A typical straw man which many like to beat.

So to dispense with such...If we love Christ we will do what He told us to do. We do what He told us to because of His Grace we have passed from darkness into light.


49 posted on 03/15/2014 12:39:30 PM PDT by redleghunter
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To: Nifster

Did your paper include any of these, in context citations?

James 2:24
James 2:26
Gal 5:6
1 Cor 13:2
John 14:15
Matt 19:16-17

Romans 8:24
Eph 2:5,8
2 Tim 1:9
Tit 3:5

Phil 2:12
1 Peter 1:9

Matt 10:22
Matt 24:13
Mark 8:35
Acts 15:11
Romans 5:9-10
Romans 13:11
1 Cor 3:15
1 Cor 5:5
Heb 9:28


Matt 7:21 - not everyone saying “Lord, Lord” will inherit the kingdom of heaven
Matt 24:13 - those who persevere to the end will be saved
Romans 11:22 - remain in his kindness or you will be cut off
Phil 2:12 - work out your salvation in fear and trembling
1 Cor 9:27 - drive body for fear of being disqualified
1 Cor 10:11-12 - those thinking they are secure may fall
Gal 5:4 - separated from Christ, you’ve fallen from grace
2 Tim 2:11-13 - must hold out to the end to reign with Christ
Hb 6:4-6 - describes sharers in Holy spirit who then fall away
Heb10:26-27 - if you sin after receiving the truth, judgement remains


50 posted on 03/15/2014 12:40:39 PM PDT by G Larry (There's the Beef!)
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