Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Premillennialism in the Old Testament
Pre-Trib Study Group ^ | NA | Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum

Posted on 03/15/2014 9:09:49 AM PDT by dartuser

While it is true that the millennium (that is, one thousand years) is found only in Revelation 20, the belief in the Messianic Kingdom does not rest on this passage alone. In fact, it hardly rests on it at all. The basis for the belief in the Messianic Kingdom is twofold.

First: there are the unfulfilled promises of the Jewish covenants, promises that can only be fulfilled in a Messianic Kingdom.

Second: there are the unfulfilled prophecies of the Jewish prophets. There are numerous prophecies of the Old Testament that speak of the coming of the Messiah Who will reign on David's Throne, and rule over a peaceful Kingdom. There is a great amount of material in the Old Testament on the Messianic Kingdom, and the belief in a Messianic Kingdom rests on the basis of a literal interpretation of this massive material.

(Excerpt) Read more at pre-trib.org ...


TOPICS: Apologetics; History; Theology
KEYWORDS: freneau; kingdom; millennium; premillennialism
The OT basis of the kingdom is expounded upon by Dr. Fruchtenbaum (he is a Jewish convert to Christ) in an exhaustive fashion. The article is a long, scholarly, and comprehensive background to the coming Messianic reign of Jesus Christ. Enjoy with your friends over coffee.
1 posted on 03/15/2014 9:09:49 AM PDT by dartuser
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: dartuser

Pre-trib Any-trib The most important thing is to be ready!

http://www.patburt.com/


2 posted on 03/15/2014 9:41:10 AM PDT by Maudeen (Proverbs 3:5-7)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: dartuser

Jesus is ruling on David’s throne. Jesus was a direct descendant of David. He was a rightful heir to the throne. He is now sitting on the throne in Heaven.

The promises to the Jews were fulfilled.


3 posted on 03/15/2014 10:56:48 AM PDT by Bryan24 (When in doubt, move to the right..........)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: dartuser

sweet in its thoroughness. Thanks! Thinking about His reign is my place of peace.


4 posted on 03/15/2014 11:02:38 AM PDT by huldah1776
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Bryan24
Jesus is ruling on David’s throne.

He is currently sitting on the Fathers throne ... not the throne of David.

Rev. 3:21 'He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

δώσω - I will grant - future active indicative
ἐνίκησα - I conquered - aorist active indicative
ἐκάθισα - I sat - aorist active indicative

Jesus conquered and then sat down on His father's throne ... where He is today. The fact that Jesus Himself said that these two thrones are distinct is why He is not sitting on David's throne now. Since He is not sitting on David's throne now, He cannot be ruling in the Davidic sense.

Spiritualize it all you want with the kingdom in the heart concept ... but the text says there are two thrones, one present ... the Fathers throne ... one future ... His throne.

Luke 1:32 "He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David"

5 posted on 03/15/2014 11:41:06 AM PDT by dartuser
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: Bryan24
The promises to the Jews were fulfilled.

How was the land promise fulfilled?

6 posted on 03/15/2014 11:41:58 AM PDT by dartuser
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: dartuser

Ever heard of the Kingdom of Israel? David? Solomon?

They descendants of Abraham saw the promise fulfilled. Those descendants chose to stop following God. God gave reprieve after reprieve. He finally let them go, preserving a remnant through Babylonian captivity to fulfill the promise of the Messiah.

The Messiah did not come to restore the physical Kingdom. Jesus told them that His kingdom was not of this world.


7 posted on 03/15/2014 12:21:24 PM PDT by Bryan24 (When in doubt, move to the right..........)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: Bryan24

>>>Jesus is ruling on David’s throne. Jesus was a direct descendant of David. He was a rightful heir to the throne. He is now sitting on the throne in Heaven. The promises to the Jews were fulfilled.<<<

You are absolutely correct. Jesus received all old testament covenants to himself as the covenant seed of Abraham and David.

Philip


8 posted on 03/15/2014 5:46:25 PM PDT by PhilipFreneau
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: dartuser
>>>How was the land promise fulfilled?<<<

It was fulfilled under David and Solomon: even before. Their kingdom covered all the areas that God promised Abram, as follows:

"In the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates: The Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites, And the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims, And the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Girgashites, and the Jebusites." (Gen 15:18-21 KJV)

The ten Canaanite tribes are listed above: the Kenites, Kenizzites, Kadmonites, Hittites, Perizzites, Rephaim, Amorites, Canaanites, Girgashites, and Jebusites. The only other boundaries in consideration were from the great river Euphrates to the river of Egypt, which David and Solomon controlled:

"David smote also Hadadezer, the son of Rehob, king of Zobah, as he went to recover his border at the river Euphrates." (2 Sam 8:3 KJV)

"And Solomon reigned over all kingdoms from the river [Euphrates] unto the land of the Philistines, and unto the border of Egypt: they brought presents, and served Solomon all the days of his life." (1 Kin 4:21 KJV)


Joshua confirmed that Israel possessed all the land God promised Abraham, even in his day:

"And the Lord gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein. And the Lord gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the Lord delivered all their enemies into their hand. There failed not ought of any good thing which the Lord had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass." (Jos 21:43-45 KJV)

"And, behold, this day I am going the way of all the earth: and ye know in all your hearts and in all your souls, that not one thing hath failed of all the good things which the Lord your God spake concerning you; all are come to pass unto you, and not one thing hath failed thereof." (Jos 23:14 KJV)


Nehemiah also confirmed that Israel received everything the Lord promised:

"And foundest his heart faithful before thee, and madest a covenant with him to give the land of the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the Jebusites, and the Girgashites, to give it, I say, to his seed, and hast performed thy words; for thou art righteous:" (Neh 9:8 KJV)

"Moreover thou gavest them kingdoms and nations, and didst divide them into corners: so they possessed the land of Sihon, and the land of the king of Heshbon, and the land of Og king of Bashan. Their children also multipliedst thou as the stars of heaven, and broughtest them into the land, concerning which thou hadst promised to their fathers, that they should go in to possess it. So the children went in and possessed the land, and thou subduedst before them the inhabitants of the land, the Canaanites, and gavest them into their hands, with their kings, and the people of the land, that they might do with them as they would." (Neh 9:22-24 KJV)


But there was this condition to the covenant:

"Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye are passed over Jordan into the land of Canaan; Then ye shall drive out all the inhabitants of the land from before you, and destroy all their pictures, and destroy all their molten images, and quite pluck down all their high places: And ye shall dispossess the inhabitants of the land, and dwell therein: for I have given you the land to possess it." (Num 33:51-53 KJV)

"But if ye will not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you; then it shall come to pass, that those which ye let remain of them shall be pricks in your eyes, and thorns in your sides, and shall vex you in the land wherein ye dwell. Moreover it shall come to pass, that I shall do unto you, as I thought to do unto them." (Num 33:55-56 KJV)

"And it shall be, if thou do at all forget the Lord thy God, and walk after other gods, and serve them, and worship them, I testify against you this day that ye shall surely perish. As the nations which the Lord destroyeth before your face, so shall ye perish; because ye would not be obedient unto the voice of the Lord your God." (Deu 8:19-20 KJV)


Israel broke that conditional covenant, and the rest is history: well, except to those attempting to rewrite history.

Philip

9 posted on 03/15/2014 6:15:17 PM PDT by PhilipFreneau
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: dartuser

Thanks...will read the full article tomorrow.


10 posted on 03/15/2014 11:48:44 PM PDT by boatbums (Simul justis et peccator.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: dartuser

Hard to post a thread, dartuser, without this space cadet from another planet, planet Preterist, trying to poison it. He believes the 2nd coming of Jesus Christ and the 1st resurrection (Rev. 20) took place in 70AD...and as if that wasn’t spaced out enough, he’s not sure whether he is a Full Preterist Amillennialist or a Full Preterist Postmillennialist.


11 posted on 03/16/2014 5:25:11 PM PDT by sasportas
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: sasportas; dartuser

>>>Hard to post a thread, dartuser, without this space cadet from another planet, planet Preterist, trying to poison it.<<<

If you have a problem with the scripture I post, please explain why, if you can. But the asperions you cast, in vain attempts to poison my interpretions, are noted.

Philip


12 posted on 03/16/2014 8:17:13 PM PDT by PhilipFreneau
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: dartuser

Thanks will finish the article tomorrow. Good to see some scholarly works posted on prophecy. A bit lacking in this forum.


13 posted on 03/16/2014 8:49:27 PM PDT by redleghunter
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: dartuser
Great article! Thanks for posting it. A paragraph from the article sort of sums it all up.

“It is the extensive prophetic writings, as well as all of these covenants, that provide the basis for the belief in a future Messianic Kingdom, and not merely one chapter of a highly symbolic book. Unless they are understood literally, they lose all meaning in the context in which they are found. To allegorize such a vast amount of material is to render a major part of the Bible meaningless.

Meaningless is exactly what happens for those who twist scripture and prophesy to mean something they don’t.

14 posted on 03/17/2014 6:34:57 AM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Bryan24
Ever heard of the Kingdom of Israel? David? Solomon? They descendants of Abraham saw the promise fulfilled.

We could debate whether the nation of Israel ever possessed the land boundaries stipulated in Genesis 15. But that is not the most fruitful place to debate. You see, there is a bigger problem if you hold that the kingdoms mentioned fulfilled the land promises in the Abrahamic covenant.

Gen. 13:15 ... for all the land which you see, I will give it to you and to your descendants forever.

The Lord God said that Abraham HIMSELF ... as well as his descendants would possess the land. Recall that Joshua went into the promised land some 400+ years after Abraham was dead.

If the Lord promised the land to Abraham himself, and he died before any of the land was possessed, then the fulfillment of this promise is still future. Then on top of that there is the 'forever' aspect of the promise. The Jews do not currently possess this land ... therefore, what they had before, whether you believe it was all of it or not, they did not possess forever ... therefore the promise is yet to be fulfilled.

15 posted on 03/17/2014 7:14:42 AM PDT by dartuser
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: PhilipFreneau
It was fulfilled under David and Solomon: even before. Their kingdom covered all the areas that God promised Abram, as follows:

You also have two major issues ... and a third of your own construction.

1. Abraham HIMSELF was also to possess the land ... that didn't happen for him, he was dead long before all the events that you highlight happened ... so the fulfillment of this covenant is still future. From my perspective, it awaits the resurrection of Abraham (sorry, it wasn't in 70 AD) in the Millennial kingdom of Christ.
2. They were to possess the land forever. Since they don't possess it today ... that forever possession has not started yet ... therefore whatever parts in the past they had ... did not fulfill the promise ... and it's still future.

Perhaps your biggest error is that you have taken a strictly unconditional covenant (Abrahamic covenant) made 400+ years before Joshua ... and tied it to commands to rid the land of pagans ... and have concluded that a modification of the Abrahamic covenant stipulations must have occurred.

Personally ... if you can provide even 1% of a cogent explanation for even the first item, I'll be impressed.

Why will I be impressed? Because you have taken the time to lay out a nice case for the LITERAL fulfillment (I'm proud of you for this) and yet when it comes to Abraham HIMSELF possessing the land ... and the eternal nature of that possession ... there will no doubt come various allegory, typology, or some other non-literal understanding that you must assign to handle this part of the promise.

16 posted on 03/17/2014 7:36:12 AM PDT by dartuser
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: dartuser; daniel1212; metmom; CynicalBear; boatbums
From the posted article:

The first facet of Israel's final restoration is the national regeneration of Israel. The timing of this regeneration has already been discussed in Chapter 14, The Campaign of Armageddon and the Second Coming of Jesus the Messiah. This section is concerned with the development of that motif. The basis of Israel's final regeneration is the New Covenant, in Jeremiah 31:31-34.

The announcement of the New Covenant begins with a declaration that it will be a Jewish covenant, for it will be made with both houses of Israel (v. 31). It will be in sharp contradistinction with the older Mosaic Covenant (v. 32). Of the five Jewish covenants, the Mosaic was the only conditional one. Although God had been faithful in keeping His terms of the covenant, Israel had not been so faithful, resulting in the Mosaic Covenant's being broken. For while the Mosaic Covenant showed the standard of righteousness which the Law demanded, it could never impart to the Jew the power to keep it. But that problem will be rectified in the New Covenant (v. 33) through regeneration, which will provide the internal power necessary to meet and to keep the righteous standards of God. The result of the New Covenant will be a total national regeneration of Israel (v. 34).

Very good laydown of Jeremiah 31 above. Just for reference here are the mentioned verses:

Jeremiah 31:

31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

17 posted on 03/17/2014 11:51:31 AM PDT by redleghunter
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: dartuser
>>>You also have two major issues ... and a third of your own construction.<<<

>>>1. Abraham HIMSELF was also to possess the land ... that didn't happen for him, he was dead long before all the events that you highlight happened ... so the fulfillment of this covenant is still future. From my perspective, it awaits the resurrection of Abraham (sorry, it wasn't in 70 AD) in the Millennial kingdom of Christ.<<<

Since you did not post any scriptural references to explain yourself; I am going to simply show that the following were the promises to Abraham, preceded by the conditions:

"And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations." (Gen 17:9 KJV)

That is brutally honest. These are the covenants:

"In the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed (singular) have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates: The Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites, And the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims, And the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Girgashites, and the Jebusites." (Gen 15:18-21 KJV)

"That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice." (Gen 22:17-18 KJV)

God kept his promises! All promises went to his seed, as in a single seed, named Jesus Christ; and in him all nations are blessed, as follows:

"Now to Abraham and his seed [singular] were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ." (Gal 3:16 KJV)

Let's get rid of all words but the actual fulfillment of the promise:

"Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made: to one seed Christ." (Gal 3:16 KJV)

That was simple enough. Now, since all the promises were made to Christ, he owns all the land that was promised to Abraham. Since it is His land, he can do as he pleases with it. He can choose to live there, in the flesh (He is God, after all;) or He can choose to live in new Jerusalem in heaven. From all I have read, He chose to live in new Jerusalem, and he made Christians his heirs:

"And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." (Gal 3:29 KJV)

Why was the promise not given to the other children of Israel, besides Christ? Maybe because they were self-serving isolationists through which at least one of the promises to Abraham could not be fulfilled, namely this one:

"… in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed…" (Gen 22:18 KJV)

>>>2. They were to possess the land forever. Since they don't possess it today ... that forever possession has not started yet ... therefore whatever parts in the past they had ... did not fulfill the promise ... and it's still future.<<<

As aforementioned, Abraham's seed, Christ, owns the land, forever. The promises were fulfilled. The old covenant is through: finished! Christ fulfilled the old covenants: all of them.

>>>Perhaps your biggest error is that you have taken a strictly unconditional covenant (Abrahamic covenant) made 400+ years before Joshua ... and tied it to commands to rid the land of pagans ... and have concluded that a modification of the Abrahamic covenant stipulations must have occurred.<<<

I simply quoted the scripture. I didn't bother quoting the scriptures I quoted above: that Christ inherited all the land as the seed of the promise; because the other scriptures I quoted showed the land promise was conditional, and the conditions were broken by the children of Israel.

Do not the new testament scriptures state, many times over, that God is no respecter of persons? Why should Israel be treated more favourably than the Gentiles? They broke the covenants, not God. And did Christ not break down the middle wall of the partition between us?

"For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us" (Eph 2:14 KJV)

I appreciate you thinking so highly of me; but I can assure you there is nothing special about me, or any of my blood relatives. In fact, according to Paul, we are all one blood:

"God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;" (Acts 17:24-26 KJV)

Let's assume you are correct in your assessments. If we are all of one blood, which the Holy Ghost clearly states we are: then who gets the land?

>>>Personally ... if you can provide even 1% of a cogent explanation for even the first item, I'll be impressed. Why will I be impressed? Because you have taken the time to lay out a nice case for the LITERAL fulfillment (I'm proud of you for this) and yet when it comes to Abraham HIMSELF possessing the land ... and the eternal nature of that possession ... there will no doubt come various allegory, typology, or some other non-literal understanding that you must assign to handle this part of the promise.<<<

Since you did not post any scripture to support your claim, I don't know how to respond, except to quote the new testament:

"And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." (Gal 3:29 KJV)

Are you saying that Christians are not heirs to the promise? That seems contradictory. Maybe you can explain to us why it is not contradictory.

Even if what you claim is supported by some means of interpretation; why do you think Abraham might want to possess the land? Did he not look for a better country?

"Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable. These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city." (Heb 11:12-16 KJV)

If you are going to make declarations that others are in error, you should at least have the courtesy to post scriptures supporting your declarations. Why should anyone consider your opinion as fact? I certainly do not. You have given me no reason to.

Philip

18 posted on 03/17/2014 12:08:43 PM PDT by PhilipFreneau
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies]

To: dartuser
Well written and scholarly article by Dr. Fruchtenbaum. What Preterists fail to acknowledge is that there are FOUR unconditional promises God made to Abraham and his descendants that WILL be fulfilled. Unconditional means that they are God's to fulfill and do not depend upon Israel's actions. God ALWAYS keeps His promises. These unconditional promises are:

From the linked article:

    The first of these is the Abrahamic Covenant, which promised an eternal Seed developing into a nation that will possess the Promised Land with some definite borders. While that nation-the Jews-continues to exist, never in Jewish history have they possessed all of the Promised Land. For this promise to be fulfilled, there must be a future Kingdom. Besides, the possession of the Land was not merely promised to Abraham's seed, but to Abraham personally when God said, to you will I give it, and to your seed for ever (Gen. 13:15). For God to fulfill His promise to Abraham (as well as to Isaac and Jacob), there must be a future Kingdom.

    The second covenant is the Palestinian Covenant, or Land Covenant, that spoke of a worldwide regathering of the Jews and repossession of the Land following their dispersion. While the dispersion has already occurred and is in effect today, the regathering and repossession of the Land still awaits fulfillment in the future. This, too, requires a future Kingdom.

    The Davidic Covenant is the third covenant, and it promised four eternal things: an eternal house (dynasty), an eternal throne, an eternal kingdom, and one eternal Person. The Dynasty became eternal because it culminated in a Person Who is Himself eternal: Jesus the Messiah. For that reason the Throne and Kingdom will be eternal as well. But Jesus has never yet sat on the Throne of David ruling over a Kingdom of Israel. The reestablishment of the Davidic Throne and Messiah's rule over the Kingdom still awaits a future fulfillment. It requires a future kingdom.

    The last of these covenants is the New Covenant, which spoke of the national regeneration and salvation of Israel, encompassing each individual Jewish member of that nation. This, too, awaits its final fulfillment and requires a future kingdom.

Those who imagine these have already been fulfilled will have to somehow explain why the above ETERNAL, UNCONDITIONAL covenants have not happened yet.

19 posted on 03/17/2014 1:28:38 PM PDT by boatbums (Simul justis et peccator.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: redleghunter; dartuser; daniel1212; metmom; CynicalBear
Jeremiah 31: 31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

What I find baffling is how Preterists can imagine this unconditional promise of God was somehow already fulfilled. It CAN'T have been for the simple reason that there are STILL unbelieving Jews in the world. Israel, as a nation, has not accepted Jesus Christ as the Messiah. They are still beset by enemies on all sides, plotting to wipe them from the face of the earth and drive them into the sea. If this had all been fulfilled through the "church", then they must explain why the "church" is still attacked and beset by enemies at every chance.

AND...the last time I checked, lions and tigers still ate the flesh of other animals. My two lil' tiggers would starve to death if I put them on a vegetarian diet. ;o)

20 posted on 03/17/2014 1:49:28 PM PDT by boatbums (Simul justis et peccator.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

To: boatbums

Well dear boatbums, just sit tight because the allegory express will no doubt explain away all your worries.


21 posted on 03/17/2014 2:00:52 PM PDT by redleghunter
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: boatbums

Considering what is said about what the Day of the Lord will bring worldwide, it is rather anticlimatic if it all occurred in 70 AD. And i think Rev. was written after that.


22 posted on 03/17/2014 2:33:30 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: redleghunter; boatbums
>>>Well dear boatbums, just sit tight because the allegory express will no doubt explain away all your worries.<<<

I see you are still assigned the role of the sniping gatekeeper, Redleg. LOL!

Let's check out boatbums' ONLY reference from the linked article; but I will take the time to put it into context:

"And the Lord said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward: For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever. And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered. Arise, walk through the land in the length of it and in the breadth of it; for I will give it unto thee." (Gen 13:14-17 KJV)

There was, however, this condition, or, warning:

"And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations." (Gen 17:9 KJV)

Later, the Lord confirmed the covenant with Abraham, and explains why he confirmed it:

"That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice." (Gen 22:17-18 KJV)

Later, Moses confirmed fulfillment in part:

"The Lord your God hath multiplied you, and, behold, ye are this day as the stars of heaven for multitude." (Deu 1:10 KJV)

Much later (1500 years later,) Paul quoted Isaiah, in writing:

"Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth. And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha." (Rom 9:27-29 KJV)

Things apparently did not go so well for Israel. Maybe they broke the covenant? We are all aware that Israel broke the first covenant before the "ink was dry." But they were not finished:

"And the Lord said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them." (Deu 31:16 KJV)

But, a promise is a promise, right? Even if only one side keeps the promise?

Fair enough. Let's see who the seed of Abraham really are. The seed is apparently not these fellows:

"But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham." (Mat 3:7-9 KJV )

And not these:

"They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham." (John 8:39 KJV)

Then it must be this fellow:

"Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ." (Gal 3:16 KJV)

And his children:

"And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." (Gal 3:29 KJV)

I don't know why so many find those last two verses so difficult to accept. This is Christ's bible, both old and new testaments, and he died to give us the new covenant, which is the new testament.

Anyway, Christians, you are Abraham's seed, and heirs to the promises. Take care that no one steal that away from you.

Philip

23 posted on 03/17/2014 3:43:09 PM PDT by PhilipFreneau
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: PhilipFreneau
Since you did not post any scriptural references to explain yourself; I am going to simply show that the following were the promises to Abraham

Genesis 13:14-15 The LORD said to Abram, after Lot had separated from him, "Now lift up your eyes and look from the place where you are, northward and southward and eastward and westward; for all the land which you see, I will give it to you and to your descendants forever.

I can only assume you purposefully did not quote this part of the promise ... as it is demolishes your position. All the land you see ... I WILL GIVE IT TO YOU ... I WILL GIVE IT TO YOU ABRAHAM ... I WILL GIVE IT TO YOU ... TO YOU I WILL GIVE IT ... ABRAHAM YOUSELF ... I WILL GIVE IT TO YOU.

Do you or do you not have ANY cogent analysis that explains in any rational manner how Abrahams descendants possessed the land (as you believe) but Abraham himself did not.

I tire of your arbitrary musings ... I have better things to do.

24 posted on 03/17/2014 4:13:46 PM PDT by dartuser
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: PhilipFreneau

Boatbums did not quote the reference you mentioned from Genesis but responded to the Jeremiah reference I posted.

You keep quoting that Genesis 17 passage without posting “what” was the covenant. Perhaps you can add that next time you repeat your same response.

I’ll help. It deals with circumcision and has little if anything to do with the mosaic covenant.


25 posted on 03/17/2014 4:18:31 PM PDT by redleghunter
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: boatbums
Those who imagine these have already been fulfilled will have to somehow explain why the above ETERNAL, UNCONDITIONAL covenants have not happened yet.

Because ...

'forever' doesn't really mean forever ...
'every eye shall see him' doesn't really mean every eye ...
1000 years doesn't really mean 1000 years
coming in the clouds really means judgment
the whole earth really means the whole land

On and on ... ad infinitum ...

It never ends with them.

Said it before and I'll say it again ... preterism is the easiest eschatological system to dispense with, but they scream the loudest.

26 posted on 03/17/2014 4:26:13 PM PDT by dartuser
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 19 | View Replies]

To: PhilipFreneau; boatbums; redleghunter
You omitted 8:37 when you quoted Jesus in John, and He contradicted you, as does Peter later in Acts. The covenants belong to every Jew in every generation until the LORD returns and there is no more preaching or unbelief (Jer 31). Individually they may be broken off for unbelief but the promise is still extant to their children, in perpetuity.
I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.

For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

27 posted on 03/17/2014 5:47:14 PM PDT by af_vet_1981 (The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: dartuser
>>>I can only assume you purposefully did not quote this part of the promise ... as it is demolishes your position. All the land you see ... I WILL GIVE IT TO YOU ... I WILL GIVE IT TO YOU ABRAHAM ... I WILL GIVE IT TO YOU ... TO YOU I WILL GIVE IT ... ABRAHAM YOUSELF ... I WILL GIVE IT TO YOU.<<<

Actually, I did quote that, and the next two verses in my response in post #23. I believe you are the first person, ever, who has complained that I did not post enough scripture. LOL! But I know you are only doing it to get back at me.

>>>>Do you or do you not have ANY cogent analysis that explains in any rational manner how Abrahams descendants possessed the land (as you believe) but Abraham himself did not.<<<

Well, I wasn't around at that time (nor were you;) but since the Lord Jesus Christ created the world and all things (John 1:3, 10,) I am going to go out on a limb and assume He handled it correctly: both at the time He gave the promises to Abraham (John 8:58,) and at the time He inherited the promises as the seed of Abraham (Gal 3:16.)

As an aside, I am forever thankful that God saved me, thus rendering me a seed of Abraham and an heir according to the promise.

How do you interpret this passage?

"So Jacob went down into Egypt, and died, he, and our fathers, And were carried over into Sychem, and laid in the sepulchre that Abraham bought for a sum of money of the sons of Emmor the father of Sychem. But when the time of the promise drew nigh, which God had sworn to Abraham, the people grew and multiplied in Egypt, Till another king arose, which knew not Joseph." (Acts 7:15-18 KJV)

Does that mean the promise did not take effect until after the children left Egypt, or while they were still in Egypt?

Thanks,

Philip

28 posted on 03/17/2014 6:55:18 PM PDT by PhilipFreneau
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies]

To: af_vet_1981
Good to hear from you again!

>>>You omitted 8:37 when you quoted Jesus in John, and He contradicted you, as does Peter later in Acts.<<<

I omitted later verses, as well. Let's post them all, and see how it pans out:

"I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father. They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham." (John 8:37-39 KJV)

You are correct. Jesus began by reminding them they were Abraham's seed. But then it was like he was disowning them from Abraham. Is that correct?

"But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me." (John 8:40-42 KJV)

He seemed to have further disowned them from Abraham.

"Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not." (John 8:43-45 KJV)

You see? I really didn't think it necessary to post all that to make my point. After all, Moses had warned Israel 1500 years earlier to hear the words of Christ; and those who didn't and don't hear his words can hardly be considered seeds of the promise:

"For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people." (Acts 3:22-23 KJV)

>>>The covenants belong to every Jew in every generation until the LORD returns and there is no more preaching or unbelief (Jer 31). Individually they may be broken off for unbelief but the promise is still extant to their children, in perpetuity.<<<

I'm not buying it unless you have some scripture to back up your opinion. All Jeremiah 31 does is confirm the new covenant--the new testament--which fulfilled the old covenant.

>>>For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.<<

LOL! Speaking of taking things out of context? This is the context:

"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls." (Acts 2:38-41 KJV)

Now I see what you were implying. That is the promise of the new covenant, not the old, as was Jerimiah 31. Our debate on this thread was whether the old covenant was fulfilled, or not. I am on the side that says it was fulfilled in Christ.

That part of Acts happend before the Gentiles were adopted in Acts 10. Since Cornelius was converted, it no longer seems correct to call us Jews and Gentiles since we are one blood.

Philip

29 posted on 03/17/2014 8:05:45 PM PDT by PhilipFreneau
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: dartuser

>>>’forever’ doesn’t really mean forever ... <<<

As long as “this generation” means “that generation,” you really don’t have a leg to stand on.


30 posted on 03/17/2014 8:09:26 PM PDT by PhilipFreneau
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 26 | View Replies]

To: redleghunter

Compare my post to #19 and see if makes more sense.

Philip


31 posted on 03/17/2014 8:19:40 PM PDT by PhilipFreneau
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 25 | View Replies]

To: PhilipFreneau; dartuser; redleghunter; af_vet_1981
As long as “this generation” means “that generation,” you really don’t have a leg to stand on.

How exactly do you go about deciding which words or phrases are "allegory", "literal" or figurative? When Jesus was answering his disciples' question as told in Matthew 24:3

Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

He had several different times to explain. The questions were prompted when Jesus was talking about the temple in Jerusalem:

Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. “Do you see all these things?” he asked. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.” (Matt. 24:1,2)

His answers addressed both those present as well as those in the future who would actually experience certain events. You seem to think that ALL the things Jesus foretold happened when Jerusalem was conquered by Titus in 70 A.D., but it was only a partial fulfillment. The whole rest of the chapter is Jesus speaking about the REAL end times - not a partial destruction of the city and the scattering of the Jewish people. A whole lot more things are yet to happen, on a GLOBAL basis that Jesus spoke of here as well as what had already been said by the prophets Jeremiah, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Zephaniah, Daniel, and others, as well as John in the NT book, Revelation, and even Peter. I do not see how anyone can logically imagine all the events God said would happen have already happened. If that were so, we would not be even having this conversation right now.

Nonetheless, the doctrines of end-times are not salvific doctrines. Our salvation is not dependent on what we know or believe about the last days. They were, however, given to us so that we can know the "times and seasons" and to be prepared so that they do not overtake us as a thief in the night. None of us knows when the Lord will come for us, so every day should be lived as if it were our last - because, one day, it WILL be. We can respectfully disagree, while not allowing our disagreements to cause dissension or discord. In all things, we should love one another as Christ loved us.

32 posted on 03/17/2014 10:04:46 PM PDT by boatbums (Simul justis et peccator.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 30 | View Replies]

To: PhilipFreneau
Nothing you write can undo what Jesus said to the Jews who did not believe in him at that point in their lives.

He said it. That settles it. The Jews are Abraham's seed. He will judge every person, not by what they say, but by what they do.

Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things. And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God.

33 posted on 03/17/2014 10:17:03 PM PDT by af_vet_1981 (>)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 29 | View Replies]

To: af_vet_1981
>>>Nothing you write can undo what Jesus said to the Jews who did not believe in him at that point in their lives.<<<

>>>I know that ye are Abraham's seed;<<<

>>>He said it. That settles it. The Jews are Abraham's seed. He will judge every person, not by what they say, but by what they do.<<<

LOL! Okay, that settles it!

How do we resolve statements like these?

"For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:" (Rom 4:13-14 KJV)

"Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed." (Gal 3:7-8 KJV)

"For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." (Gal 3:26-29 KJV)

Philip

34 posted on 03/17/2014 11:27:02 PM PDT by PhilipFreneau
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 33 | View Replies]

To: boatbums
>>>How exactly do you go about deciding which words or phrases are "allegory", "literal" or figurative? When Jesus was answering his disciples' question as told in Matthew 24:3<<<

>>>Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”<<<

>>>He had several different times to explain. The questions were prompted when Jesus was talking about the temple in Jerusalem:<<<

I see where you are coming from. I have heard and read these arguments many, many times. Let me try a different approach so you might see where I am coming from. Let's take this question by the disciples:

"…what shall be the sign of thy coming?"

They did not ask this out of the blue. Jesus had already told them that he would be coming in their lifetimes, in at least two different ways that are written:

"But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come." (Mat 10:23 KJV)

"For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom." (Mat 16:27-28 KJV)

"And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power." (Mark 9:1 KJV)

We also know that Jesus expounded the (old testament) scriptures for them, on occasion, so the disciples could have very well be privy to a lot more understanding of OT prophecies than we can even imagine today. He did say this about it:

"For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them." (Matt 13:17)


Now, to the question asking when will be "the end of the age." Jesus had given them numerous statements and parables about the end of the age, or the "age to come." The disciples had been with him for several years. And while there is no evidence to support this, there is also none to deny it; and that is, that there is a very good possibility that the disciples knew the scriptures well enough by that time to understand that when Jesus came in his kingdom, he would necessarily destroy most everything related to the old kingdom, including Jerusalem, Israel and the temple. And they very possibly could have known that his coming would be the fulfillment of certain prophecies that would bring in a new age.

What I am really implying is, while those may seem like three isolated questions, they very well could be two or three highly related events separated by very short periods of time.


>>>I do not see how anyone can logically imagine all the events God said would happen have already happened. If that were so, we would not be even having this conversation right now.<<<

I can't understand why you cannot see that they are all related. The most significant and terrible event in the history of the Judeo-Christian religion is barely a blip on the radar of futurists of every stripe. That makes absolutely no sense to me, and I seriously doubt it ever will.

All O.T prophecy pointed to Jesus, the destruction of Jerusalem and Mosaic law, and the creation of the church, new Jerusalem, on heavenly mount Sion. The temple went from a building, or tents, to actual people and a spiritual realm; and the fact that the Gentiles were brought into the kingdom was the most significant thing that happened, in my opinion, since the Abrahamic covenant. In a very short period of time, God's chosen people went from one race, to all races. And all this happened in the span of about 40 years in the first century. I don't understand why you don't understand.

I believe it all has to do with the time contexts, as I mentioned before. But I don't believe you will see them any other way--that is all you have ever known. From the opposite perspective, I am the same. I knew no escatologies or ideologies, to speak of, until last year. All I had known, until recently, for going on 40 years, was the plain-jane KJV scripture. You think I have it all wrong, and I think you have it all wrong. I don’t see that changing any time soon. LOL!

In the meantime, we can debate our ideas. I have learned new things on this forum because of good, solid questions and posts that have been presented. I have been "forced" to do biblical and historical research to evaluate and "justify" my responses, and I believe I am a better person for it.

Philip

35 posted on 03/18/2014 12:40:54 AM PDT by PhilipFreneau
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 32 | View Replies]

To: PhilipFreneau
Does that mean the promise did not take effect until after the children left Egypt, or while they were still in Egypt?

You are confusing things a bit. The promise, the effect of the promise, and the fulfillment of the promise are all different things. The promise was given, period. The promise is composed of all the truth statements that God gave Abraham; descendants, nation, blessing, land, etc. When did it take effect? I say when God spoke it to Abraham the Abrahamic covenant took effect immediately in the sense that God gave the promises to Abraham and it was His trustworthiness that would guarantee all the promises in the covenant would eventually be brought to fulfillment.

Given the nature of the promises, doesn't it seem obvious that the fulfillment of the individual promises would occur at distinct points in time ... not all at once?

Obviously they did not possess the land while they were in Egypt right? Did they become a nation before they went into the promised land? Yes, they did. That aspect was certainly fulfilled; them becoming a nation. What about the descendants? That was continuously fulfilled as the nation multiplied ... are Abrahams descendants still multiplying? Yes ...

On to your passage

... But when the time of the promise drew nigh, which God had sworn to Abraham, the people grew and multiplied in Egypt,

Do you not see that the text you quoted merely hints that the part of the promise given to Abraham dealing with making him a great nation, descendants as the stars ... is mentioned in the passage as beginning to be fulfilled?

Does it not make sense that it would take lots of time for the nation of Israel to emerge from one man; yeah, it took 400+ years for those descendants to multiply lol? Did God not make Abraham a great nation BEFORE any of them even got to the promised land? Jewish history shows that the Abrahamic covenant would be fulfilled in eras ... not all at once. Even your view (all fulfilled in Christ, even the land promise) begs that fulfillment occurs in eras and ages.

My point is that there are AT LEAST two aspects to the Abrahamic covenant that have not been fulfilled completely to this day ... possession of all the land borders promised (we can genuinely argue about that) ... and the possession by Abraham himself (no argument there is possible, Abraham never possessed the land himself).

The Abrahamic covenant awaits its ultimate fulfillment in the future millennial kingdom (as does the Davidic covenant and the New Covenant). It is only the Mosaic covenant that has ceased permanently (Hebrews).

36 posted on 03/18/2014 5:25:04 AM PDT by dartuser
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 28 | View Replies]

To: dartuser

>>>You are confusing things a bit. The promise, the effect of the promise, and the fulfillment of the promise are all different things.<<<

I personally think you are reading way too much into the covenant (s.) The promise was to Abraham and his seed, as in singular: one seed. The new convenant (new testament) tells us that Jesus is that seed, and inherited all the promises. There is nothing you can add to that.

Christ fulfilled the convenant. He inherited all the promises, and all the nations have been blessed by him. Hebrews has a good discussion of the old testament (covenant) vs the new testament (covenant).

>>>Do you not see that the text you quoted merely hints that the part of the promise given to Abraham dealing with making him a great nation, descendants as the stars ... is mentioned in the passage as beginning to be fulfilled?<<<

It says, “…when the time of the promise drew nigh.” Thus the implication that Abraham personally had to take ownership of the land is not supported, biblically. I believe that was part of your question in an earlier post, and that is what I was disputing.

But, as stated earlier, I saw no way the promise could be fulfilled as long as it belonged to the Jews. But once it was given to Christ, and Christ only, then it was available to His children, both Jew and Gentile, and the promise could be fulfilled.

That fulfillment by Christ is also proof that God is no longer a respecter of persons. He was at one time, when the children of Israel were his chosen people. But once he divorced that race (my race,) he adopted all races as his children: those who accept Christ.

>>>My point is that there are AT LEAST two aspects to the Abrahamic covenant that have not been fulfilled completely to this day ... possession of all the land borders promised (we can genuinely argue about that) ... and the possession by Abraham himself (no argument there is possible, Abraham never possessed the land himself).<<<

I quoted Joshua and Nehemiah, who both stated the promises were fulfilled: but you seem to know something they don’t? Sorry, but I am going to have to go with them. I mean, their words are God’s Words.

By the way, your argument that “Abraham never possessed the land himself” seems to be an act of desperation. Both the old and new testaments indicate the promises to Abraham were fulfilled. Why you keep clinging to this Jewish fable in this day and age is most puzzling.

Philip


37 posted on 03/18/2014 7:38:25 AM PDT by PhilipFreneau
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 36 | View Replies]

To: PhilipFreneau
How do we resolve statements like these?
  1. By not being a preterist, not looking to re-form into yet another new denomination, sect, cult, or heresy out of so many thousands of previous ones. Besides, all the good names are already taken. If you were a Catholic, and just to see an Orthodox approach, I would point you to
      The Catechism provides us with a general order of events at the End [CCC 673-677]. Chronologically they are,
    1. the full number of the Gentiles come into the Church
    2. the "full inclusion of the Jews in the Messiah's salvation, in the wake of the full number of the Gentiles" (#2 will follow quickly on, in the wake of, #1)
    3. a final trial of the Church "in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth." The supreme deception is that of the Antichrist.
    4. Christ's victory over this final unleashing of evil through a cosmic upheaval of this passing world and the Last Judgment.

    As Cardinal Ratzinger recently pointed out (in the context of the message of Fátima), we are not at the end of the world. In fact, the Second Coming (understood as the physical return of Christ) cannot occur until the full number of the Gentiles are converted, followed by "all Israel."

  2. By believing Jesus, Peter, and Paul; there are Jews in every generation who are the seed of Abraham and to whom the covenants apply; some are broken off, yet the seed will continue until the end (not 70 CE/AD) when all Israel shall be saved.

    I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.


38 posted on 03/18/2014 9:18:32 AM PDT by af_vet_1981 (>)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 34 | View Replies]

To: af_vet_1981
>>>As Cardinal Ratzinger recently pointed out (in the context of the message of Fátima), we are not at the end of the world. In fact, the Second Coming (understood as the physical return of Christ) cannot occur until the full number of the Gentiles are converted, followed by "all Israel."<<<

That interpretation is dubious, at best. The Jews were the first Christians, and hold all the "leadership" positions in the heavenly realm. To imply they had no "opportunities," either in the beginning, or since, is just plain wrong.

>>>By believing Jesus, Peter, and Paul; there are Jews in every generation who are the seed of Abraham and to whom the covenants apply; some are broken off, yet the seed will continue until the end (not 70 CE/AD) when all Israel shall be saved.<<<

It doesn't work that way. I posted this earlier on another thread, but a repost seems appropriate here:

His coming was exclusively for the Jewish world: to usher out the old, and bring in the new. If there was an afterthought, it was for the Gentiles, who were not allowed into the kingdom until Act 10, long after Christ was resurrected. But, in reality, all was planned before the foundation of the world.

Christ made the new covenant, in part (or mostly) to take away Israel's sins. Recall this:

"And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call." (Joel 2:32 KJV)

The key words are, "whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord." Paul interpreted it this way:

"For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins." (Rom 11:24-27 KJV)

But Paul had already defined "all Israel" as "not all Israel:"

"Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed." (Rom 9:6-8 KJV)

One would think from that statement that all of Isaac's seed would be considered Israel. But we all know that Jacob, son of Isaac was Israel, and Esau was rejected. That was determined before they were even born. So after explaining all that, Paul asks:

"What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid." (Rom 9:14 KJV)

"For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy." (Rom 9:15-16 KJV)

"Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?" (Rom 9:20-21 KJV)

The destiny of Israel was determined long ago; but not as many believe, or even as many think fair!

"Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth. And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha." (Rom 9:27-29 KJV)

And why only a seed? And why only a remnant?

"But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed." (Rom 9:31-33 KJV)

Of course, the stumblingstone was the chosen seed, Christ. And unfortunately, most in Jerusalem at that time did not believe Christ was the Lord, and could not even hear his voice. You cannot call on the name of the Lord unless you can hear and believe his words:

"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? " (Rom 10:13-15 KJV)

But even when they "heard" him directly, they would NOT hear him. If they had heard him or the prophets, they could have been saved. I found that understanding in Isaiah:

"For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear. But the word of the Lord was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken." (Isa 28:11-13 KJV)

It was immediately before this:

"Wherefore hear the word of the Lord, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem. Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves: Therefore thus saith the Lord God, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste. Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place. And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it." (Isa 28:14-18 KJV)

They didn't want to hear. Many still don't. I know.

Philip

39 posted on 03/19/2014 11:06:38 PM PDT by PhilipFreneau
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 38 | View Replies]

To: PhilipFreneau
One would think from that statement that all of Isaac's seed would be considered Israel. But we all know that Jacob, son of Isaac was Israel, and Esau was rejected.

True, and in every generation all of Jacob's descendants are Israel, up to the point they are broken off. No one knows until his last opportunity to call on the name of the LORD passes away. Jesus', Peter's, and Paul's words are all true, not to mention Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Ezekiel.

40 posted on 03/20/2014 3:56:55 PM PDT by af_vet_1981 (>)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 39 | View Replies]

To: af_vet_1981

>>>True, and in every generation all of Jacob’s descendants are Israel, up to the point they are broken off. No one knows until his last opportunity to call on the name of the LORD passes away. Jesus’, Peter’s, and Paul’s words are all true, not to mention Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Ezekiel.<<<

I hope they all turn to the Lord; but that is not going to happen as long as they hang onto Judaism.

Philip


41 posted on 03/20/2014 4:23:23 PM PDT by PhilipFreneau
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 40 | View Replies]

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson