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German Church Leader Signals Opening for Divorcees
The Washington Post ^ | 4/15/14 | AP

Posted on 03/17/2014 6:09:45 AM PDT by marshmallow

BERLIN — The new leader of Germany’s Roman Catholic bishops is signaling support for allowing some divorced but remarried Catholics to receive Communion after a “penitential period.”

Cardinal Reinhard Marx, who also sits on a panel that helps advise Pope Francis on Vatican reform, was elected Wednesday to head the German Bishops’ Conference.

Church teaching holds that unless their first marriage is annulled, remarried Catholics can’t receive Communion or other sacraments. The church is now discussing anew how to handle such cases.

(Excerpt) Read more at washingtonpost.com ...


TOPICS: Catholic; Ministry/Outreach; Moral Issues; Theology
KEYWORDS:
Major trouble ahead.
1 posted on 03/17/2014 6:09:45 AM PDT by marshmallow
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To: marshmallow
If you can't meet the standard, change the standard.
2 posted on 03/17/2014 6:18:40 AM PDT by E. Pluribus Unum (If Barack Hussein Obama entertains a thought that he does not verbalize, is it still a lie?)
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To: marshmallow

So, if a person is divorced by his wife - She initiates the proceedings and forces the divorce the Church sees fit to punish the ex-husband? In old days it took a lot more to get divorced. Nowadays any beeyotch can divorce her husband and he gets screwed by the state and the Church.


3 posted on 03/17/2014 6:22:55 AM PDT by raybbr (Obamacare needs a death panel.)
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To: marshmallow
Yeah. Tolerance of the sin of remarriage adultery.

(Spoken from the position of having been divorced for 4 years, and never remarried.)

(A paper on this sinful practice is given here)

4 posted on 03/17/2014 6:38:57 AM PDT by imardmd1 (Fiat Lux)
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To: marshmallow

Correction to typing error. that’s forty-two (42) years, not 4 years, in my Post #4.


5 posted on 03/17/2014 6:44:08 AM PDT by imardmd1 (Fiat Lux)
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To: marshmallow

We haven’t had a full fledged schism in centuries. Looks like the Germans are itching for one. But if they do go, will the Vatican do what’s right or simply tag along?


6 posted on 03/17/2014 6:45:39 AM PDT by Brian Kopp DPM
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To: raybbr

dirty little secret....those with connections and money can generally get an annulment, even under iffy circumstances.


7 posted on 03/17/2014 6:48:45 AM PDT by Buckeye McFrog
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To: E. Pluribus Unum
If I'm catching the connotation correctly, the church should continue ostracizing those who fall short of the glory of God?

Funny how the church leadership hid child sexual abuse, sent abusive priest to alternate parishes to offend again. Then many of the priest who sexually abused these children began a season of repentance, confession, reconciliation and returned to full communion.

All the while, these children grew up to become adults were sent into a lifetime of spiritual dysfunction, relational dysfunction, self medicating with drugs and alcohol. God forbid...one of them experience a divorce. Then they become outcast.

So, basically the priest who abused the kid is forgiven, the kid abused by the priest is not. Okie dokie then.

We won't mention the banking scandals and all the cover ups throughout church history....we will just focus on keeping folks trapped in a dungeon.

So much for the gift of grace, so much for the gift of forgiveness, mercy.

8 posted on 03/17/2014 6:58:37 AM PDT by servantboy777
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To: servantboy777

You sure do like straw-men. Good for you. Carry on.


9 posted on 03/17/2014 6:59:52 AM PDT by E. Pluribus Unum (If Barack Hussein Obama entertains a thought that he does not verbalize, is it still a lie?)
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To: Buckeye McFrog
dirty little secret....those with connections and money can generally get an annulment, even under iffy circumstances.

Yes, I know. It happened to me. I filed for an annulment and waited and waited and waited. Nothing. I didn't have any money at the time and waited.

About six months after the priest I was "working" with supposedly filed the paperwork I got a letter from the Diocese. It said my ex was filing for an annulment (after I supposedly did) and would I like to participate? I sent a copy of all the stuff I gave to the priest and four weeks later I got the annulment.

My ex's family was/is loaded.

10 posted on 03/17/2014 7:09:20 AM PDT by raybbr (Obamacare needs a death panel.)
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To: marshmallow

I don’t think this will happen. I think the media is giving us what they want.


11 posted on 03/17/2014 7:24:28 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: raybbr
No--- because divorce per se is not in every case a sin. In the case you described, the husband, the victim of the whole process, is not the one who destroyed the marriage and is not at fault.

So there's no problem with him receiving the Sacraments. He's in good standing because he upheld, and is upholding, the marriage bond.

12 posted on 03/17/2014 7:26:05 AM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (Point of clarification.)
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To: marshmallow; E. Pluribus Unum; raybbr; imardmd1; Brian Kopp DPM; servantboy777; Mrs. Don-o

Gospel Mk 10:1-12

Jesus came into the district of Judea and across the Jordan.
Again crowds gathered around him and, as was his custom,
he again taught them.
The Pharisees approached him and asked,
“Is it lawful for a husband to divorce his wife?”
They were testing him.
He said to them in reply, “What did Moses command you?”
They replied,
“Moses permitted a husband to write a bill of divorce
and dismiss her.”
But Jesus told them,
“Because of the hardness of your hearts
he wrote you this commandment.
But from the beginning of creation, God made them male and female.
For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother
and be joined to his wife,
and the two shall become one flesh.
So they are no longer two but one flesh.

Therefore what God has joined together,
no human being must separate.”
In the house the disciples again questioned Jesus about this.
He said to them,
“Whoever divorces his wife and marries another
commits adultery against her;
and if she divorces her husband and marries another,
she commits adultery.”


13 posted on 03/17/2014 7:30:21 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Buckeye McFrog
Yeah. Like Henry VIII. Uh, perhaps you're talking about modern times. Surely the Vatican would never overrule a Kennedy petitioner's divorce. (Oops. Joe and Sheila.)

I will agree that the present canonical situation in the USA is a hell of a mess. But it's not because of connections and money (ask Joe Kennedy.) It's because anyone with a $300 annulment filing fee -- or down to $0 if you're poor --- can generally get an annulment if they're willing to perjure themselves and claim psychological incapacity at the time of the vows.

But it escapes me what the Church could do about that. Maybe Cardinal Kasper will tell us.

:o/

:o/


14 posted on 03/17/2014 7:39:13 AM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (:o/)
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To: marshmallow

True penance must include a firm resolution to sin no more, i.e. stop committing adultery in violation of a marriage that remains intact despite a civil divorce.


15 posted on 03/17/2014 8:00:30 AM PDT by Petrosius
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To: Salvation
He said to them, “Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery against her; and if she divorces her husband and marries another, she commits adultery.”

Why the deception...Your religion is full of deception...How many Catholics are there that if only they would check the scriptures would see that your religion is lying to them???

Mat 19:9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

Why are you participating in this deception???

16 posted on 03/17/2014 8:14:37 AM PDT by Iscool (Ya mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailer park...)
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To: Iscool

“Porneia” which your translation gives as “fornication” refers to an illicit relationship between the man and woman who divorce, not adultery in violation of the marriage. To read it otherwise would make no sense to the reply of our Lord.


17 posted on 03/17/2014 8:29:54 AM PDT by Petrosius
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To: Salvation
Yea yea yea...we know the dogma already, give it a rest. Those holier than thou folks love to insert scripture where there is none and hold onto scripture for use in beating folks about the head and neck.

How bout, if you cause any of these little ones to sin, you may as well tie a millstone around your neck and cast yourself into the sea.

So...which is it? Is the pope infallible or not? If church leaders hid child sexual abuse...then why are they not standing on the edge of the sea with millstones tied to’em?

Why are there STILL to this day, pedophile priest among the ranks of the clergy? Why is there STILL to this day a large homosexual mafia within the church? Are they going to be purged?

My point is:

God's grace is for everyone...not just the perfect. Not just for those who obtain a state of grace through a few hail Mary's and a confessional. God's mercy extends to those who've made bad choices, not just for those who work the parking lot on Sunday or serve as the squared away lay member.

Speaking of the holy queen, where on earth do you guys get this from. Referring to Mary as an advocate? Where is this stuff in scripture...the church just made this stuff up.

How bout the pagan practices still in use today within the church. You'd think by now the pope would recognize such heresies and purge the church of them. But hey, no ones perfect...not even the pope.

18 posted on 03/17/2014 8:45:37 AM PDT by servantboy777
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To: Petrosius
“Porneia” which your translation gives as “fornication” refers to an illicit relationship between the man and woman who divorce, not adultery in violation of the marriage. To read it otherwise would make no sense to the reply of our Lord.

It's not only my translation, it the Catholic Douay translation as well...

Your explanation doesn't make much sense to me...If a man or woman fools around after the divorce then it is adultery???

19 posted on 03/17/2014 8:51:09 AM PDT by Iscool (Ya mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailer park...)
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To: E. Pluribus Unum
Jesus came to set men free. Jesus suffered and died to save the sinner....faith by grace. Past, present and future.

We battle not against flesh and blood. satan works day and night to deceive folks into thinking of God as an angry, vengeful entity ready to poof folks into a pillar of smoke it they do not toe the line.

Why did Jesus come? If God is still judging us according to our sins, then why did Jesus suffer and die?

I dunno, just seems like the catholic church is still attempting to keep folks blind of the real gospel message. Not unlike the days clergy punished severely those who obtained a copy of the bible translated from Latin. After all, only clergy could interpret holy scripture.

20 posted on 03/17/2014 8:53:14 AM PDT by servantboy777
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To: servantboy777; Salvation
Salvation said it better than I could...

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/3134103/posts?page=13#13

21 posted on 03/17/2014 9:10:50 AM PDT by E. Pluribus Unum (If Barack Hussein Obama entertains a thought that he does not verbalize, is it still a lie?)
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To: E. Pluribus Unum
It may not sound like it, but I do appreciate y’alls faithfulness.

What I take issue with is how the catholic church has been involved with many sinful acts throughout the centuries, yet it's all counted as the evolution of the faith.

Sure, God hate divorce. I'm quite sure it was never intended for man to divorce. Fact is, satan toils eternally to destroy peoples lives. Works endlessly to separate us from a relationship with God.

Our enemies are the world, the flesh and the devil. This is why the grace of our Lord is so powerful to set the captive free.

The good news!

22 posted on 03/17/2014 9:23:31 AM PDT by servantboy777
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To: servantboy777
So many straw men, so little time.
23 posted on 03/17/2014 9:37:39 AM PDT by E. Pluribus Unum (If Barack Hussein Obama entertains a thought that he does not verbalize, is it still a lie?)
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To: servantboy777

It’s from the Bible. I thought all the non-Catholics based their faith on the Bible......am I wrong?


24 posted on 03/17/2014 9:40:23 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: servantboy777

But we are talking about marriage, divorce and then remarriage. Not other subjects.


25 posted on 03/17/2014 9:41:41 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Iscool
It's not only my translation, it the Catholic Douay translation as well…

I am not taking issue with the translation, only pointing out that there are various translations because the term has not direct English equivalent. In fact, I like this translation. Fornication can only take place before marriage. If our Lord had meant marital infidelity as an exception then he would have called it adultery, as he calls those who remarry after divorce.

If a man or woman fools around after the divorce then it is adultery???

Why yes:

But I say to you, whoever divorces his wife (unless the marriage is unlawful) causes her to commit adultery, and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery. (Matt. 5:32)

I say to you, whoever divorces his wife (unless the marriage is unlawful) and marries another commits adultery. (Matt. 19:9)

Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and the one who marries a woman divorced from her husband commits adultery. (Lk. 16:18)

What is adultery within a supposed second marriage is surely also adultery without even the benefit of this second false marriage.

Notice that in Matthew 19 Jesus precedes these words with a rejection of the Mosaic law allowing divorce:

He said in reply, “Have you not read that from the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female’ and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore, what God has joined together, no human being must separate.”

They said to him, “Then why did Moses command that the man give the woman a bill of divorce and dismiss [her]?”

He said to them, “Because of the hardness of your hearts Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. (Matt. 19:4-8)

None of these remarks would make any sense if adultery or any other reason would allow for divorce and remarriage.
26 posted on 03/17/2014 10:29:51 AM PDT by Petrosius
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To: Petrosius
I am not taking issue with the translation, only pointing out that there are various translations because the term has not direct English equivalent. In fact, I like this translation. Fornication can only take place before marriage. If our Lord had meant marital infidelity as an exception then he would have called it adultery, as he calls those who remarry after divorce.

But I say to you, whoever divorces his wife (unless the marriage is unlawful) causes her to commit adultery, and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery. (Matt. 5:32)

I say to you, whoever divorces his wife (unless the marriage is unlawful) and marries another commits adultery. (Matt. 19:9)

Well, one thing is for certain...You Catholics will pervert any and every scripture to make it line up with your false teaching...

Here's what the scripture really says...

Mat 5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

Mat 19:9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

27 posted on 03/17/2014 10:51:16 AM PDT by Iscool (Ya mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailer park...)
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To: servantboy777
Why did Jesus come? If God is still judging us according to our sins, then why did Jesus suffer and die?

Are you saying that we are saved even if we adamantly refuse to turn away from our sins? Does this also apply to murderers, sodomites, thieves, etc.? Saint Paul would take exception to this:

Do you not know that the unjust will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers nor boy prostitutes nor sodomites nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God. (1 Cor. 6:9-10)

Be sure of this, that no immoral or impure or greedy person, that is, an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. (Eph 5:5)

As did Jesus Christ himself:
[Jesus said]: “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?’ Then I will declare to them solemnly, ‘I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers.’ " (Matt. 7:21-23)
While the idea of sola fide might be comforting, it is not the true gospel contained in Scripture.
28 posted on 03/17/2014 11:01:11 AM PDT by Petrosius
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To: Iscool

“Porneia” is a difficult word to translate into English. “Unlawful marriage”, as in the New American Bible, and “fornication”, as in the Douay-Rhiems Bible, are both legitimate translations. But I will go with “fornication” if you wish. With this translation everything I said in post 26 still holds. Fornication can only describe sexual relations before marriage and can thus here only apply to the relationship of those divorcing, not to infidelity after marriage as a justification for divorce.


29 posted on 03/17/2014 11:08:38 AM PDT by Petrosius
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To: Petrosius
“Porneia” is a difficult word to translate into English. “Unlawful marriage”, as in the New American Bible, and “fornication”, as in the Douay-Rhiems Bible, are both legitimate translations.

Nonsense...Of the 250+ English translations out there most all use fornication or sexual immorality as a translation for 'porneia'...Obviously it's not too difficult for the translators...

The NAB??? Most Catholics don't even read that Catholic perversion of the scriptures...

How in the world can 'unlawful marriage' in one bible and 'fornication' in another both be legitimate translations??? That's ridiculous...

30 posted on 03/17/2014 11:25:32 AM PDT by Iscool (Ya mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailer park...)
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To: Iscool

The original meaning of “porneia” was actually prostitution. It came to have a broader meaning of general sexual immorality including fornication, incest, rape, and cohabitation. An unlawful marriage is obviously form of sexual immorality. Be that as it may, I will go with the translation of “fornication.” Again, with this translation everything that I pointed out in post 26 is still true. By addressing only the technicalities of the translation you are avoiding the fact even the translation you prefer supports the Catholic understanding of what our Lord taught.


31 posted on 03/17/2014 11:44:45 AM PDT by Petrosius
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To: Petrosius
By addressing only the technicalities of the translation you are avoiding the fact even the translation you prefer supports the Catholic understanding of what our Lord taught.

Mat 19:9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

Ya right...

32 posted on 03/17/2014 11:53:24 AM PDT by Iscool (Ya mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailer park...)
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To: Iscool

Yes, right. If our Lord had intended infidelity he would have called it adultery, not fornication. If this were truly an exception then everything that he said before it would not make any sense; his response to the question would have simply be “only in the case of adultery.” Additionally, Luke has no such “exception”. The truth is that it is those who support divorce are the ones who are not following Scripture.


33 posted on 03/17/2014 12:16:45 PM PDT by Petrosius
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To: Petrosius
If our Lord had intended infidelity he would have called it adultery, not fornication.

He DID call it adultery...What are you talking about???

And then you claimed the charge of fornication was an act before marriage...

Mat 5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

As we can clearly see, the context is a married wife...The context is a married wife who commits fornication (obviously with someone other than the husband) relieves the husband of causing the charge of adultery... I don't see how you think you can twist these simple, easy to understand verses into something that it clearly does not say...

Adultery is breaking the wedding bond...Fornication is whoring about...

34 posted on 03/17/2014 1:04:24 PM PDT by Iscool (Ya mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailer park...)
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To: Iscool
He DID call it adultery...What are you talking about???

The context is a married wife who commits fornication (obviously with someone other than the husband) relieves the husband of causing the charge of adultery…

No, the adultery comes after the divorce. Nor can the porneia/fornication relieve the husband from causing her to commit adultery. Look again, anyone who marries her after the divorce commits adultery.

And then you claimed the charge of fornication was an act before marriage…

No, you completely misunderstand. The fornication is not an act before the marriage but rather an impediment that invalidates it. It is the union itself that is porneia/fornication. This is why with such a divorce there is no adultery if she marries. Any other reading makes a mockery of what Jesus says just before when he rejects the Mosaic law allowing for a bill of divorce. If adultery did indeed dissolve the wedding bond Jesus would have simply said so rather than attack the Mosaic law. Again, there is no such "exception" in Luke.

35 posted on 03/17/2014 1:34:25 PM PDT by Petrosius
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To: Petrosius
The fornication is not an act before the marriage but rather an impediment that invalidates it.

No it doesn't...Divorce invalidates the marriage...

If adultery did indeed dissolve the wedding bond

Adultery does not dissolve the wedding bond...Divorce does...

As in Luke, if you divorce your wife for (almost) any reason, there is adultery involved...

And then Matthew takes it a step further and tells us that if fornication is involved, there is no adultery attributed to the innocent party...

It's really that simple...But like I said, we are not under the law but under grace...Those verses in Mat, Mark and Luke do not apply to us who are under grace...It is no longer a sin to get divorced, for any reason...

Your religion fails whether it wants to be under the law, or under grace...

36 posted on 03/17/2014 2:25:57 PM PDT by Iscool (Ya mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailer park...)
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To: marshmallow

The answer is Jesus.


37 posted on 03/17/2014 2:30:34 PM PDT by right way right (America has embraced the suck of Freedumb.)
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To: Iscool
Adultery does not dissolve the wedding bond...Divorce does…

If divorce dissolves the wedding bond then how can our Lord say that if a man marries a divorced woman he is committing adultery? There can only be adultery if the bond of the previous marriage still exists.

38 posted on 03/17/2014 6:24:04 PM PDT by Petrosius
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To: Brian Kopp DPM

“We haven’t had a full fledged schism in centuries. Looks like the Germans are itching for one. But if they do go, will the Vatican do what’s right or simply tag along?”

The American Church has been in schism for decades; we have lay people giving out the Eucharist while the party of abortion and homosexuality carries the “Catholic” regions of the country reliably.


39 posted on 03/17/2014 10:26:02 PM PDT by kearnyirish2 (Affirmative action is economic war against white males (and therefore white families).)
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To: kearnyirish2

Good point. But it’s not an open, declared schism.


40 posted on 03/18/2014 5:14:49 AM PDT by Brian Kopp DPM
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