Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Pope Francis AGAIN: “Who am I to judge?”
WDTPRS ^ | 3/18/2014 | Fr. John Zuhlsdorf

Posted on 03/18/2014 2:59:30 PM PDT by markomalley

The Pope used again, on 17 March, the phrase “Who am I to judge?” in an informal, off-the-cuff context: his daily fervorino at his private Mass during which he says nothing that forms a part of his Ordinary Magisterium.

At News.va we find an account of the fervorino.  Alas, we never get the whole thing.  The Holy See newsies cut it up and make a hash of it, so our ability to consider context is somewhat hobbled.

Remember that the first time he used this unfortunate turn of phrase in front of journalists in an off-the-cuff way during an informal chat, all hell broke loose.  Hell was loosened, and is still being loosened, as a predictable result because most newsies and 99.9% of the low-information type out there have no notion of what the Pope was talking about.  I explain the situation more HERE.  Francis wasn’t talking about all homosexuals everywhere, which is want the newsies and the 99% want you to think.  The under-informed from politicians to students have claimed the phrase to mean: “Homosexuality is okay!”

That is not what the Pope was saying.

Remember: He referred to our making judgments about people who sin.  That is to say, people commit sin X, and it is a sin.  We, however, must be careful about how we view them, talk about them, etc.  They may have sinned, but they may be trying now to live in a holy way.  We should be ready to be merciful.

Let’s jump to the recent fervorino.  My emphases and comments.

In his homily at Holy Mass on Monday, 17 March, Pope Francis preached on mercy. Commenting on the day’s readings from the Prophet Daniel (9:4-10) and the Gospel of Luke (6:36-38), the Pope explained that “Jesus’ invitation to mercy is intended to draw us into a deeper imitation of God our Father: be merciful, as your Father is merciful”. However, he added that “it is not easy to understand this willingness to show mercy, because we are accustomed to presenting the bill to others: you’ve done this, now you have to do this”. In short, he said, “we judge, and we fail … to leave space for understanding and mercy”.  [NB: Mercy is what we give to people who have done something wrong.]

In order to be merciful, “two attitudes are needed”. The first is “self-knowledge”. The Pope noted that in today’s first reading, Daniel recounts the humble prayer of the people before the God and their acknowledgement that they are sinners: “We have sinned and done wrong, but to thee belongs righteousness, and to us shame”. Reflecting on the passage, the Pope said: “In the presence of a repentant people, God’s justice is transformed into mercy and forgiveness”. [Again: mercy is what the sinner asks.  We are sinners.  We ask God's mercy.  We are asked to show mercy to sinners.]

This challenges us, he continued, by inviting us “to make room for this same inner attitude”. Therefore, “to become merciful, we must first acknowledge that we have done many things wrong: we are sinners!. We need to know how to say: Lord, I am ashamed of what I have done in life”.  [All people should be ashamed of sins.  Homosexuals are people.  Homosexuals should be ashamed of sins. Homosexual acts are sins.  Homosexuals should be ashamed of homosexual acts.  We should all be merciful toward the sinner, just as we desire mercy from God and others.]

The Pope continued: “even though none of us has ever killed anyone,” nonetheless “we still have committed many daily sins”. [We are all sinners.] Therefore, “acknowledging that we have sinned against the Lord, and being ashamed in his presence is a grace: the grace of knowing that one is a sinner!”. It is easy, he said, and yet “so very difficult” to say: “I am a sinner and I ashamed of it before you and I ask for your forgiveness”.  [This should be the attitude of those who commit sins.]

“Our Father Adam gave us an example of what one should not do,” the Pope added. For he blamed the woman for having eaten the fruit and he justified himself, saying: “I have not sinned; it is she who made me go down this road!”. Eve then does the same thing, blaming the serpent. Yet one should acknowledge one’s sin and one’s need to for God’s forgiveness, the Pope said, and not look for excuses and “load the blame onto others”. Perhaps “someone helped me” to sin, “and opened the road: but I did it!”. [Take responsibility for your sins.]

“If we act in this way,” he explained, “how many good things will follow: we will truly be men!”. [!] Furthermore, “with this attitude of repentance we will be more capable of being merciful, because we will feel God’s mercy for us”. In the Our Father, in fact, we do not only pray: “forgive us our trespasses”. We also pray “forgive us as we forgive those who trespass against us”.  [Nothing in here so far about turning a blind eye to sin.  Nothing in here so far about saying that something sinful is really okay.]

The second attitude we need is “an openness to expanding our hearts”. The Pope noted that it is precisely “shame and repentance that expands a small, selfish heart, since they give space to God to forgive us”. [Not only shame about sins but also repentance.] What does it mean to open and expand one’s heart? First, it means acknowledging ourselves to be sinners and not looking to what others have done. And from here, the Pope said, the basic question becomes: “Who am I to judge this? Who am I to gossip about this? Who I am, who have done the same things, or worse?”. [The Holy Father is not suggesting that we turn a blind eye to sin.  He is saying that we should be careful how we treat people who are sinners.  He also is not saying that all people commit all sins.  He is not saying that all sins are equal in gravity.  He made a distinction at the top, for example.  We understand ourselves as sinners and, therefore, we treat other sinners with mercy.  It is NOT mercy to say that a sin is not sinful.]

“The Lord says it in the Gospel: “Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not and you will not be condemned; forgive and you will be forgiven. Give and it will be given to you; good measure, pressed down, shaken together, running over, will be put into your lap”. This is the “generosity of heart” that the Lord presents through “the image of those going to collect grain who enlarged their aprons in order to received more”. In fact, Pope Francis said, “you can receive far more if you have a big heart!”. And he added: “a big heart doesn’t get entangled in other peoples lives, it doesn’t condemn but forgives and forgets” as “God has forgiven and forgotten my sins”. [I suggest to you that the Pope is not saying that sins should have no consequences.  "You did X, but, that's okay.  All is forgiven.  Sure you can be a kindergarten teacher."  Obviously the Pope is not saying this about, for example, priests who abuse children.  We can forgive, indeed, must forgive priests who do these horrible things.  But mercy and forgiveness doesn't require us to be completely stupid.  We don't forgive the child abuser and then readmit him to ministry in, for example, a parish with a grade school.  That is not what Francis means by "forgive and forget".  When God forgives our sins in the Sacrament of Penance, our sins are forgiven, but we still have to make reparation for our forgiven sins.]

He then noted that in order to be merciful we need to call upon the Lord’s help, since “it is a grace”. And we also need to “recognize our sins and be ashamed of them” and forgive and forget the offences of others. [They remain, however, "offenses".] “Men and women who are merciful have big, big hearts: they always excuse others and think more of their own sins. Were someone to say to them: ‘but do you see what so and so did?’, the respond in mercy saying: ‘but I have enough to be concerned over with all I have done’”. [Again, Pope Francis is not saying that the obviously guilty mass murder is simply to be set free with the cheerful phrase, "Hey!  I'm a sinner too.  Kill a bunch of people? forgotten.  Most of us - think about it - most of need to foster a habit of forgiveness.  He is not asking us to become idiots.]

Pope Francis concluded: “If all of us, all peoples, all families, all quarters had this attitude, how much peace there would be in the world, how much peace there would be in our hearts, for mercy brings us peace! [Sure... if all of us were that way.  All.  But there will be some who are unrepentant sinners that create havoc in society.] Let us always remember: who am I to judge? To be ashamed of oneself and to open and expand one’s heart, may the Lord give us this grace!”.  [Again... "Who am I to judge?" is not permission for people to do anything they want.  It is not approbation of sinful behavior.  The Pope is applying an attitude of mercy to SIN.]

So, here we go again.

And remember: None of this was part of the Holy Father’s Ordinary Magisterium.  This was an informal, off-the-cuff fervorino at his private Mass.


TOPICS: Catholic
KEYWORDS:
I think what the Holy Father is merely expounding upon the concept of removing the log in your own eye before commenting on the speck in another person's eye.

But the amount of red font that is necessary to fully explain that is very troubling. And I don't know that it's so troubling for the words that Francis, himself, uses...but because we all *know* how those words are going to be twisted.

1 posted on 03/18/2014 2:59:30 PM PDT by markomalley
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: markomalley

Bergoglio: Who am I to judge?

The Bible:
“But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.”


2 posted on 03/18/2014 3:04:37 PM PDT by .45 Long Colt
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: markomalley
So glad there are countless Roman Catholics around that will interpret what the Pope REALLY meant when he commented on this topic!

IBTPBAF

3 posted on 03/18/2014 3:07:47 PM PDT by Gamecock
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: .45 Long Colt
The Bible:

Matthew 7

1Judge not, that ye be not judged. 2For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. 3And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? 4Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? 5Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

Let me guess, I'm taking it out of context, right?

4 posted on 03/18/2014 3:09:02 PM PDT by markomalley (Nothing emboldens the wicked so greatly as the lack of courage on the part of the good -- Leo XIII)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: All
IB4TPWMA
5 posted on 03/18/2014 3:09:53 PM PDT by Alex Murphy ("the defacto Leader of the FR Calvinist Protestant Brigades")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Gamecock

post #4. What are your thoughts on that Biblical passage?

(I ask you that seriously, as I have no idea what Presbyterians or other Calvinists believe regarding that passage)


6 posted on 03/18/2014 3:10:13 PM PDT by markomalley (Nothing emboldens the wicked so greatly as the lack of courage on the part of the good -- Leo XIII)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: Alex Murphy

If you can respond to post #6 as well, I’d appreciate it.


7 posted on 03/18/2014 3:11:18 PM PDT by markomalley (Nothing emboldens the wicked so greatly as the lack of courage on the part of the good -- Leo XIII)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: markomalley

I’m not Catholic, and I haven’t been too excited about this Pope, but in this case, I don’t see anything that’s unBiblical.


8 posted on 03/18/2014 3:15:37 PM PDT by MNDude
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: markomalley

The one you quoted or the ones in the Popes homily?


9 posted on 03/18/2014 3:17:27 PM PDT by Gamecock
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: markomalley

I’ll take a piece of that action. It means that IF you judge to do so righteously and in the same measure you would wish to be judged yourself. People judge all the time. We have to for survival. I don’t go to the wrong part of town at 2:00 AM in the morning. I may be called upon to do jury duty. I will judge according to what I would wish the jury would accord me if I were a defendant. Jesus judged the Pharisees and so rightly. We can claim that same power to decry sin as long as we are not guilty of the same/worse.


10 posted on 03/18/2014 3:19:08 PM PDT by BipolarBob
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: markomalley

Sorry, I missed reading the part about post 4.

I’m cooking some of my fab spaghetti sauce, I get back to answer that in a couple hours.


11 posted on 03/18/2014 3:19:53 PM PDT by Gamecock
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: markomalley

All you did was quote the passage, so I have no idea how you mean it. But I will say this, most people take it out of context. It is always amusing to watch God-hating reprobates make a little fig leaf apron of that passage.

Christians are to judge all things by the Word.


12 posted on 03/18/2014 4:04:30 PM PDT by .45 Long Colt
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: markomalley

Yup exactly... Pappa says a very Biblical thing and gets attacked for having done so.... go figure.....


13 posted on 03/18/2014 4:08:26 PM PDT by wonkowasright (Wonko from outside the asylum)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: markomalley

“I think what the Holy Father is merely expounding upon the concept of removing the log in your own eye before commenting on the speck in another person’s eye.”

He without sin,,bla bla bla. We can’t comment, criticize
or complain about the homosexual agenda in the church because
we ourselves are not without sin. Nor can we criticize this
enabling pope for the same reason. Yep that’s pretzel time.
Sounds like a justice Roberts finding. Folks are going to great
extremes to protect this popes big dumb mouth.


14 posted on 03/18/2014 4:18:34 PM PDT by Slambat
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: markomalley

Very true.

But the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ also said the following as well in reference to judging:

“Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment.”-John 7:24

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+7%3A24&version=NKJV


15 posted on 03/18/2014 4:25:25 PM PDT by ReformationFan
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: markomalley
I'm a member of the "elect", dude. My ticket's already punched. Done and done. What else am I gonna to do if I don't kill a little time trashing the poor, lost souls who follow Rome?

"Judging" aint a problem for me. I'm going to heaven. Guaranteed.

16 posted on 03/18/2014 5:05:41 PM PDT by marshmallow
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: markomalley

Has this pope considered a TelePrompTer?


17 posted on 03/18/2014 5:07:48 PM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: markomalley
1Judge not, that ye be not judged. 2For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. 3And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? 4Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? 5Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

Note that we are to take the beam out of our eye first. We are to call sin sin, but not judge others if we are struggling with the same sin. For instance if I struggle with lust, I shouldn't say something to someone else who is doing the same.

But then the question is what does judge mean? Condemn? Discern?

One of the principles of understanding Scripture, from the Reformed view anyway, it to let Scripture interpret Scripture. It seems the below does a pretty good job of explaining the above. Helps me to quit worrying about what the lost folks who are not Christians are doing.

1 Corinthians 5:11 But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one. 12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? 13 God judges those outside. “Purge the evil person from among you.”

18 posted on 03/18/2014 5:37:39 PM PDT by Gamecock
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: markomalley

I have decided to start reminding people who say that we should not judge that, while that is correct, we do have an obligation to teach.

We don’t help any soul get closer to Christ unless we speak up about what the sin in question is, why it is hurtful, and toward whom, and why repentance is possible, necessary and beneficial. Jesus told the adulterer that he did not stone to go forward and not sin any more. If we drop the stones and say nothing, we are only doing half of what Jesus did.


19 posted on 03/18/2014 5:41:38 PM PDT by married21 ( As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: markomalley
That's the whole point of the passage.

We are called to "judge", but not as a HYPOCRITE.

This passage says it all. Just like the woman who was to be stoned for adultery.

"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone".

So the oldest people walked away first, because they had committed the very same sin as the adultress, and countless others.

But remember the final words: "Go and sin no more".

Jesus didn't pat the woman on the head and say: "You're cool, keep on doing what you've been doing!"

I'm sorry, but this Pope is driving me crazy.

He doesn't seem to "get" that he's appearing VERY wishy-washy when it comes to sin.

And in before I get bashed, I'm a Catholic.

But this guy is really not speaking clearly enough.

No, EVERYTHING is NOT OK.

"Who am I to judge?" sounds awesome to liberal ears.

He sounds ridiculous when he makes such statements.

I'm done trying to defend "mistranslations" or "nuances".

Other Popes didn't seem to have this problem.

20 posted on 03/18/2014 5:51:45 PM PDT by boop (I just wanted a President. But I got a rock.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: Gamecock; BipolarBob; ReformationFan; Slambat; boop
Note that we are to take the beam out of our eye first. We are to call sin sin, but not judge others if we are struggling with the same sin. For instance if I struggle with lust, I shouldn't say something to someone else who is doing the same.

(Though I'm quoting the above, I actually agree with everything you're saying)

I personally think that if not for the major bruhaha from the last time he said "Who am I to judge?", this would not be a matter of issue and would be seen as pretty much orthodox from any point of view. If a person repents from his/her sin, is converted, and his/her life is reformed, then we shouldn't keep beating on the person.

For me personally, when looking down on somebody who is struggling with sin*, I always consider the sins that I, personally, have been forgiven of...and that tends to make me a lot more merciful in my judgment.

* -- please note that the above statement applies to those who are struggling with sin; working on putting off the "old man" (cf Rom 6:6; Eph 4:4, etc.)...the statement does not include those who revel in their sin (cf Rom 1:32).

I'm personally humbled when I actually comprehended the passage "all have sinned and come short of the glory of God" (Rom 3:23)

I think the biggest bone of contention is that he is talking about people who are trying. When I actually read his words, that's what I get. Sadly, the reprobate use a select subset of those words as justification and to confirm themselves in their sin.

Reminds me of the atheist who uses a part of Psalm 14:1 to assert that the Bible says there is no God.

Thanks, all, for the thoughtful responses. They are appreciated.

21 posted on 03/18/2014 6:21:33 PM PDT by markomalley (Nothing emboldens the wicked so greatly as the lack of courage on the part of the good -- Leo XIII)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: boop

“Who am I to judge” those who prefer the Latin Mass?


22 posted on 03/18/2014 6:22:37 PM PDT by Jeff Chandler (Obamacare: You can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: markomalley
Sadly, the reprobate use a select subset of those words as justification and to confirm themselves in their sin.

It's a shame the most visible Christian leader on earth hasn't a clue about the damage he does to the souls of those who do so. At least I pray he doesn't.

23 posted on 03/18/2014 6:25:09 PM PDT by Jeff Chandler (Obamacare: You can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: Jeff Chandler
It's a shame the most visible Christian leader on earth hasn't a clue about the damage he does to the souls of those who do so. At least I pray he doesn't.

I'm attributing it to naiveté -- I hope that naiveté isn't my own.

24 posted on 03/18/2014 6:39:23 PM PDT by markomalley (Nothing emboldens the wicked so greatly as the lack of courage on the part of the good -- Leo XIII)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: Gamecock

BTW, I forgot to ask...how did the spaghetti sauce turn out?


25 posted on 03/18/2014 6:39:58 PM PDT by markomalley (Nothing emboldens the wicked so greatly as the lack of courage on the part of the good -- Leo XIII)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: markomalley
I get a kick out of reading what this pope says...

And he added: “a big heart doesn’t get entangled in other peoples lives, it doesn’t condemn but forgives and forgets” as “God has forgiven and forgotten my sins”.

Now how many of you really believe that??? How many of your were ever taught that??? I would venture to say none of you...

How many of you expect to stand before the judgment seat and when the records are opened, you have a clean slate??? All of your sins are forgiven and forgotten...None of you...

Why does your pope say he will have a clean slate but none of you will???

26 posted on 03/18/2014 6:56:11 PM PDT by Iscool (Ya mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailer park...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: markomalley

Not so good. It needs to simmer all day and I didn’t start it until 5, ate at 7.

Can’t rush a good sauce. :-(


27 posted on 03/18/2014 6:59:40 PM PDT by Gamecock
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 25 | View Replies]

To: .45 Long Colt

“But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.”

Which seems to me to mean that since i am spiritual i can judge all, but you people who are not spiritual should not be judging.

And it is up to me to decide if you are spiritual but you will just have to take my word that i am.

Just what do it mean any way????

The way Jesus said it is good enough for me.


28 posted on 03/18/2014 7:11:21 PM PDT by ravenwolf
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: Gamecock
Sorry to hear that. A good Bolognese sauce takes several hours for the flavors to meld together. Sort of like good soup.

BTW, here's a really good soup cookbook, Twelve Months of Monastery Soups. A whole bunch of really good recipes to play with.

29 posted on 03/18/2014 7:15:04 PM PDT by markomalley (Nothing emboldens the wicked so greatly as the lack of courage on the part of the good -- Leo XIII)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: markomalley

Let me guess, I’m taking it out of context, right?

I am sure you are but i will let some one more spiritual than i am to take you to task for trying to make a claim that is refuted by the gospel, sarc....


30 posted on 03/18/2014 7:20:13 PM PDT by ravenwolf
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: .45 Long Colt

Christians are to judge all things by the Word.

Yes but are we to judge where salvation is concerned?

Romans 3
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

1John1
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Mat 7
5Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.

It appears to me that in mat 7:5 Jesus was talking about the same thing that is seen in Paul and John above.

We can like something or not, or if the Bible says its wrong then it is wrong and we can say it, but we do not have the right to condemn some one to hell, only God can do that.

And besides, more people are judged for breaking man made ideas of right and wrong than they are for breaking scriptural laws.

You don,t see any one in the Churches defending the right for people to smoke, but when it comes to something the scriptures forbid and calls an abomination they are all over the place defending the right of same sex marriage.

If the Churches do not start getting along better and pulling together they will soon destroy each other.

But Man is forever man, if Christians started getting along and quit bashing each other and forgetting their differences and just start obeying the Church leaders the Church would soon be telling the leaders of the world what to do, but wait??? that is kinda how it started ain,t it?


31 posted on 03/18/2014 8:16:17 PM PDT by ravenwolf
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: ravenwolf

Salvation is of The Lord, so it is way beyond my purview. We can, however, identify those who believe, as Paul put it, “another gospel.” And we are not to be unequally yoked with unbelievers and we are to separate from them. In order to do those things we must judge.

“And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.”

“Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.”


32 posted on 03/18/2014 8:46:39 PM PDT by .45 Long Colt
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]

To: ravenwolf

“But he that is spiritual judgeth all things”.

This verse refers to the Christian’s internal witness to the truths of Christianity, not in all the thorny matters, but in the essentials, and in his ability to discern when the Gospel is preached and when it is not, and to whom he owes his salvation to (Christ alone). Then it continues:

“yet he himself is judged of no man,” that is, the ungodly cannot discern what manner of men we are. They cannot comprehend us in the same way the damned are incapable of comprehending Christ, for “we have the mind of Christ,” and therefore think spiritually, and are not of this world, but are the enemies of it.


33 posted on 03/18/2014 9:07:30 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 28 | View Replies]

To: marshmallow
I'm a member of the "elect", dude. My ticket's already punched.

Yeppers, that what we see far too often. Judging others comes in the bargain. Heck anything goes. It's like having God in a box in your pocket.

34 posted on 03/18/2014 9:32:38 PM PDT by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies]

To: Iscool
Why does your pope say he will have a clean slate but none of you will???

Why do you say he says that?

35 posted on 03/18/2014 9:35:33 PM PDT by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 26 | View Replies]

To: .45 Long Colt

Salvation is of The Lord, so it is way beyond my purview. We can, however, identify those who believe, as Paul put it, “another gospel.” And we are not to be unequally yoked with unbelievers and we are to separate from them. In order to do those things we must judge.


I agree.


36 posted on 03/18/2014 11:49:45 PM PDT by ravenwolf
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 32 | View Replies]

To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

“But he that is spiritual judgeth all things”.

This verse refers to the Christian’s internal witness to the truths of Christianity, not in all the thorny matters, but in the essentials, and in his ability to discern when the Gospel is preached and when it is not, and to whom he owes his salvation to (Christ alone). Then it continues:

“yet he himself is judged of no man,” that is, the ungodly cannot discern what manner of men we are. They cannot comprehend us in the same way the damned are incapable of comprehending Christ, for “we have the mind of Christ,” and therefore think spiritually, and are not of this world, but are the enemies of it.


I see nothing to disagree with here.


37 posted on 03/18/2014 11:52:33 PM PDT by ravenwolf
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 33 | View Replies]

To: Iscool

Now how many of you really believe that??? How many of your were ever taught that??? I would venture to say none of you...


I have not heard the forget part but Jesus told Peter to forgive not seven times but seventy seven times mat 18:21

I do not expect to have a clean slate but if i do not forgive those who trespass against me i can not expect my sins to be forgiven.

32
“Then the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to.

33
Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’

34
In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.

At the same time i do understand that this may not cover the meaning of what the pope was saying.

1John ch1
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

John puts it two ways
have no sin
have not sined

it refers to past sins and present sins

I believe Christians will be completely rid of their sins only when they die and their bodies are turned back to dust.


38 posted on 03/19/2014 12:34:31 AM PDT by ravenwolf
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 26 | View Replies]

To: ravenwolf
John puts it two ways have no sin have not sined

Rom_4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Have no sin...
Have not sinned
Will sin in the future...

39 posted on 03/19/2014 7:30:57 AM PDT by Iscool (Ya mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailer park...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 38 | View Replies]

To: Iscool

Rom_4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Have no sin...
Have not sinned
Will sin in the future...

RIGHT.


40 posted on 03/19/2014 7:40:54 AM PDT by ravenwolf
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 39 | View Replies]

To: markomalley; Gamecock
I think what the Holy Father is merely expounding upon the concept of removing the log in your own eye before commenting on the speck in another person's eye. But the amount of red font that is necessary to fully explain that is very troubling. And I don't know that it's so troubling for the words that Francis, himself, uses...but because we all *know* how those words are going to be twisted....

....If you can respond to post #6 as well, I’d appreciate it.

The amount of spin control that FRoman Catholics and Catholic bloggers are engaging in to make this pope more/less palatable to themselves and outsiders has become quite the event. Have Catholics always been this malcontent with their own leaders' words? Can popes not speak for themselves? Is every layperson their own pope, rendering their own Personal Interpretation Of The Catholic Magisterium / Canon Law / Catechism / Scripture? But that's not what you asked for.

Let me address the "beam in your eye" verse you asked about. In my own mind, the issue of Christians and judgment centers around three concepts and three (other) verses. Those concepts are:

Wait And See, i.e. refusing to render a subjective short-term judgment about a person (or their salvation) until more time has passed and more information is gathered/known,

Temporal judgment, i.e. making a subjective short-term judgment about a person (or their salvation) based on externally observed behaviors, and

Eternal judgment, i.e. making an objective final judgment about a person's salvation based on lifetime behaviors and internal "heart condition"

And the three verses are:
"Judge not, that you be not judged.
For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you
."
-- Matthew 7:1-2

...do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by you, are you incompetent to try trivial cases?
Do you not know that we are to judge angels? How much more, then, matters pertaining to this life! 4 So if you have such cases, why do you lay them before those who have no standing in the church? 5 I say this to your shame. Can it be that there is no one among you wise enough to settle a dispute between the brothers, 6 but brother goes to law against brother, and that before unbelievers?
-- 1 Corinthians 6:2-3

"I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire."
-- Matthew 5:22

FWIW, I myself think that your pope is taking a pastoral approach and using Wait And See when he says "Who am I to judge?" On the other hand, a large number of FRoman Catholics have rendered (Temporal ? Eternal?) judgment over Francis' spiritual state and of the Catholic church's spiritual state in response to their own interpretation of his words. IMO they have done so because they have always placed themselves in judgment over everyone else that intolerance of others has become their natural state of mind, and now it has been extended to the new pope.

Me? I'm just enjoying the show. Pass the popcorn.

41 posted on 03/19/2014 8:11:25 AM PDT by Alex Murphy ("the defacto Leader of the FR Calvinist Protestant Brigades")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: boop

bkmk


42 posted on 03/19/2014 8:59:18 AM PDT by AllAmericanGirl44
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: Alex Murphy
Me? I'm just enjoying the show. Pass the popcorn.

Indeed. It must be particularly humorous for non-Catholics.

Thanks for the feedback.

43 posted on 03/19/2014 3:55:02 PM PDT by markomalley (Nothing emboldens the wicked so greatly as the lack of courage on the part of the good -- Leo XIII)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 41 | View Replies]

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson