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Pope to Italian Steel Workers [Catholic Caucus]
Vatican Radio ^ | March 20, 2014 | Pope Francis

Posted on 03/20/2014 7:13:19 PM PDT by Rashputin

Pope to Italian Steel Workers: work is essential for human dignity, should be available to all

(Vatican Radio) Pope Francis has reaffirmed that employment is essential to society, families, and individuals and for the dignity of the human person. In a Vatican audience Thursday for staff and families of the Italian Steel Works company “Acciaierie di Terni” celebrating its 130th anniversary, Pope Francis said his thoughts were directed not only to their company and others in the region, but to “all of the working world.”

In the current economic climate and the difficulties facing the work environment, the Pope said, “it is necessary to reaffirm that employment is an essential reality for society, for families and for individuals. Work, in fact, directly regards the person, his/her life, freedom and happiness. The primary value of employment is the good of the human person,” because, the Pope explained, it “realizes a person,” intellectually by making demands on his or her attitudes and creative and manual abilities.

Employment, then, should not be considered simply as a means for obtaining profit, he continued, “but above all a purpose that affects man and his dignity. And if there is no work, this dignity is wounded! Anyone who is unemployed or underemployed risks, in fact, being placed on the margins of society, becoming a victim of social exclusion. Many times it happens that people out of work - I think especially of the many unemployed young people today - slip into chronic discouragement or worse, apathy.”

Speaking of the “grave” unemployment problems affecting various European countries, Pope Francis said, this “is the consequence of an economic system that is no longer able to create jobs, because it places in its center an idol which is called money!”

The Pope called on society’s political, social and economic spheres “to promote a different approach, based on justice and solidarity, to ensure everyone has the opportunity to perform work with dignity.”

Work is an essential need, he emphasized, which “should be available to everyone.”

Creativity and solidarity are needed to confront periods of “severe hardship and unemployment,” he said, describing as “courageous” those “creative entrepreneurs and artisans” who “look to the future with confidence and hope”

But he also called on all members of society to act in solidarity with those in need by “giving up something” and adopting “a more sober lifestyle.”

In concluding, the Pope entreated the working world to “never stop hoping for a better future” and to not be “trapped in the vortex of pessimism!”

This difficult and burdensome period of economic turmoil can be overcome, the Pope stressed, if “everyone does their part” by placing the dignity of the human person at the center.


TOPICS: Current Events; Moral Issues; Religion & Culture
KEYWORDS: liberationtheology; work

1 posted on 03/20/2014 7:13:19 PM PDT by Rashputin
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Comment #2 Removed by Moderator

To: ebb tide
I wonder if those who so frequently question the Pope and all things Catholic while claiming to be Catholic get the soles of their shoes damp when they walk on water.
3 posted on 03/20/2014 7:40:37 PM PDT by Rashputin (Jesus Christ doesn't evacuate His troops, He leads them to victory.)
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To: Rashputin

Bless his heart.


4 posted on 03/20/2014 10:19:48 PM PDT by Jeff Chandler (Obamacare: You can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs.)
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Comment #5 Removed by Moderator

Comment #6 Removed by Moderator

Comment #7 Removed by Moderator

To: ebb tide
Your posts and the replies to you were removed because this thread is labeled "Catholic Caucus" and the following applies:

The “Catholic Caucus” designation excludes Sedevacantists, Orthodox, SSPX and Inactive Catholics.

Any of the excluded groups may be included on a particular thread by extending the label, e.g. “Catholic/Orthodox Caucus” or “Cath/SV/SSPX Caucus”

Additionally, the label “All Catholic Caucus” may be used to include any Freeper who self identifies as a Catholic regardless of his attitude about the Pope, Papal Infallibility, Vatican II or Schisms or Sects.

The SSPX will be included by default in a Catholic Caucus when (and if) Bishop Fellay accepts the olive branch offered.


8 posted on 03/21/2014 8:39:20 PM PDT by Religion Moderator
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To: Religion Moderator

What makes you think I’m SSPX? Because Rasputin accused me of it?

Please check my posting history.


9 posted on 03/21/2014 8:54:24 PM PDT by ebb tide
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To: ebb tide

They probably say that about me too although I attend the Extraordinary Form in the Yakima Diocese, Washington State.


10 posted on 03/21/2014 8:58:40 PM PDT by steve86 (Acerbic by nature not nurture)
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To: ebb tide
I have checked your posting history, e.g. click here.
11 posted on 03/21/2014 9:07:30 PM PDT by Religion Moderator
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To: steve86; Religion Moderator

Well I attend the Masses offered by the FSSP, but that apparently won’t stop the RM from believing false accusations by others.


12 posted on 03/21/2014 9:09:39 PM PDT by ebb tide
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To: ebb tide; Rashputin; Salvation; NYer; NKP_Vet; sitetest; markomalley
Rashputin, I'm sorry that your thread is being trashed by this sidebar but evidently the Religion Forum guidelines on what is or is not "Catholic" for a "Catholic Caucus" needs to be revisited.

The issue is whether FSSP (ebb tide claiming to be a member) is so closely associated with SSPX that it ought to be excluded also - or whether it ought to be included in the general "Catholic" category because FSSP is in communion with the Pope.

Evidently the SSPX view of the FSSP/communion with the Pope is available here.

The current guideline reads:

The “Catholic Caucus” designation excludes Sedevacantists, Orthodox, SSPX and Inactive Catholics. Any of the excluded groups may be included on a particular thread by extending the label, e.g. “Catholic/Orthodox Caucus” or “Cath/SV/SSPX Caucus”

Additionally, the label “All Catholic Caucus” may be used to include any Freeper who self identifies as a Catholic regardless of his attitude about the Pope, Papal Infallibility, Vatican II or Schisms or Sects.

The SSPX will be included by default in a Catholic Caucus when (and if) Bishop Fellay accepts the olive branch offered.

I'm pinging some others who post Catholic Caucuses or have been around for a long time.

My objective is to avoid disruption on caucus threads.

What are your opinions?

13 posted on 03/21/2014 9:28:37 PM PDT by Religion Moderator
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To: Religion Moderator

This is ridiculous. The FSSP exists BECAUSE of the so-called “schismatic act” of abp. Lefebvre consecrating bishops without papal mandate. The FSSP was formed immediately following the consecrations by JPII himself in order to provide a home for traditionalists within the Church who could not in conscience continue to be members of the SSPX. The FSSP operates with proper episcopal approval everywhere it is active. Anyone who is trying to excommunicate the faithful who attend FSSP Masses is out of his mind.


14 posted on 03/21/2014 9:46:55 PM PDT by Legatus (Keep calm and carry on)
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To: Religion Moderator

Sounds like you’e proposing to lump the FSSP together with the SSPX, either in the Caucus or not. I think it’s a bad idea.

There’s no reason to include the FSSP in the Catholic Caucus “exclusion” category.


15 posted on 03/21/2014 9:47:51 PM PDT by ebb tide
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To: Religion Moderator
Correct, FSSP is in full communion with the Catholic Church and the pope.

It is not in any manner affiliated with SSPX. As a point of fact, the Church establishes FSSP parishes adjacent to SSPX churches in many or most cases, so that local Catholics have a in-Church alternative to the SSPX for the Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite (using Roman Rite Liturgical Books of 1962). An example would be SSPX in Post Falls, ID and FSSP in Coeur d'Alene, a handful of miles apart and the closest example to me.

Notice the reference to the Bishop of Boise Diocese in the following:

St. Joan of Arc Roman Catholic Chapel is home to the Traditional Latin Mass Community located in Coeur d’Alene, Idaho operating with the approval of the Bishop of the Diocese of Boise and served by the priests of the Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter.

http://www.stjoanarc.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=87&Itemid=53

16 posted on 03/21/2014 9:53:31 PM PDT by steve86 (Acerbic by nature not nurture)
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To: Religion Moderator; ebb tide
Dear Religion Moderator,

“The issue is whether FSSP (ebb tide claiming to be a member) is so closely associated with SSPX that it ought to be excluded also - or whether it ought to be included in the general ‘Catholic’ category because FSSP is in communion with the Pope.”

That is a lunatic idea.

The FSSP is in good standing with the Bishop of Rome. If you start excluding genuinely Catholic groups from Catholic Caucus threads, then you've vitiated the purpose of the label. If the decision of the actual Catholic Church in communion with the actual Bishop of Rome isn't sufficient to define who is Catholic and who is not, then the meaning of “Catholic” as used in the Religion Forum becomes unmoored from reality.

As well, ebb tide is NOT a member of the FSSP (unless I've missed the fact that he is ordained or on the road to ordination). Ebb tide is a CATHOLIC. Pure and simple. No modifiers. No qualifiers. Just an ordinary, run-of-the-mill CATHOLIC.

The FSSP is a society of PRIESTS, DEACONS, and those studying to be PRIESTS and DEACONS.

Laypeople who are not in the seminary on their way to ordination are not members of the FSSP.

Furthermore, it is a society of Pontifical Right, meaning that it answers only to the pope. Is that Catholic enough? As a layperson, ebb tide is entitled to assist at Mass at any Mass celebrated publicly by priests with faculties in communion with the Church. That doesn't include the Masses offered by the SSPX, but it does include those offered by the FSSP.

My perspective was that the caucus label is meant to avoid disruption from OUTSIDERS, not internal disagreement when there are legitimate differences of opinion within the Catholic community here at FR.

What's next - throwing out "Novus Ordo" Catholics who have problems with Pope Francis? I guess I fall into that category. I assist pretty much at the ordinary form of the Mass, in the vernacular, every Sunday and holy day. But sometimes, the pope says things that strike me as foolish, poorly thought-out, badly expressed, or just plain old silly. Am I next to be excluded from Catholic Caucus threads?

Ebb tide is, as far as I can see, a devout, faithful Catholic who is critical of this pope and of Blessed Pope John Paul II. I'm unsure of his views of Benedict XVI. Contrary to popular rumor, Catholics may be critical of a pope's actions and words, as long as they submit to the legitimate, binding Magisterium of the Church. Not every utterance and action of the pope is part of the Magisterium. It's not all infallible (by a very long shot).

My suggestion is to let actual Catholics hash out these issues among ourselves.


sitetest

17 posted on 03/21/2014 10:16:25 PM PDT by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
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To: Legatus; ebb tide; steve86
The issue here is only how to avoid disruption on threads labeled "Catholic Caucus." From the Religion Forum guidelines:

Caucus labels exist only for the purpose of avoiding unwanted disruptions on Religion Forum threads. The terms used in a caucus label are not necessarily precise with reference to Canon Law, theology or even dictionaries – but are intended to communicate briefly who should or should not post on a thread.


18 posted on 03/21/2014 10:18:01 PM PDT by Religion Moderator
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To: sitetest
My perspective was that the caucus label is meant to avoid disruption from OUTSIDERS, not internal disagreement when there are legitimate differences of opinion within the Catholic community here at FR.

That is correct.

Years ago there were complaints that the Orthodox, who were part of the "Catholic Caucus" at the time, were disrupting thread after thread. The caucus was then split into Catholic on the one hand and Orthodox on the other, but posters could combine the two on any thread by stipulating "Catholic/Orthodox Caucus." Several Orthodox posters became so indignant about it, they left the forum altogether.

Recently, traditionalists of various stripes have been disrupting Catholic Caucus threads and in a similar hashing session, the guidelines were changed to read as shown on post #8.

Perhaps the best solution is to scrap all of it and instead leave it to the poster of the article to be specific, or not.

19 posted on 03/21/2014 10:33:43 PM PDT by Religion Moderator
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To: Religion Moderator
Dear Religion Moderator,

The difference in the labels you describe actually mirror some external reality.

The Catholic Church and the various Orthodox Churches are not in formal communion with each other. This is objective reality. That lack of formal communion exists in part because the Orthodox do not think it's a good idea to have formal communion with the Catholic Church at this point. The objective reality is that the two sets of entities distinguish themselves from each other.

“Traditionalist” Catholic groups that aren't in communion with the Bishop of Rome are, well, not entirely Catholic, or in some anomalous state vis-a-vis the Church, at least in the view of the Church of Rome.

Although I'm against excluding SSPXers from Catholic Caucus threads (the pope said that the issue of the SSPX is an INTERNAL church issue), at least there is some objective reality onto which to hang the caucus label hat - their position is not canonically regularized.

But the FSSP?!?

The FSSP are NOT outsiders to the Catholic Church IN ANY WAY, SHAPE, OR FORM.

You seem to agree with this statement that I made:

“My perspective was that the caucus label is meant to avoid disruption from OUTSIDERS, not internal disagreement when there are legitimate differences of opinion within the Catholic community here at FR.”

Then, why would you exclude the FSSP or those who assist at FSSP Masses? They are NOT outsiders to the Catholic Church. What differences we may have between us are INTERNAL disagreements.


sitetest

20 posted on 03/21/2014 10:44:17 PM PDT by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
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To: sitetest; ebb tide
The consensus on the last go-around of this great debate was that the SSPX and Sedevacantists Catholics were disruptive on "Catholic Caucus" threads. Evidently, ebb tide was considered among them as he was accused earlier on this thread of being SSPX which he later clarified he was not but rather was FSSP - hence this sidebar.

The entire point is to find a way the poster of a caucus can avoid disruption.

I was happy as a clam when the term "Catholic" included "Orthodox." And it would be fine with me if the further distinctions in post #8 were dropped or if the usual caucus posters agree that excluding FSSP was not their intent.

21 posted on 03/21/2014 11:05:07 PM PDT by Religion Moderator
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To: Religion Moderator
The Priestly Society of St Peter was erected by a decree of Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei in 1988. It is in full communion with the Holy See.

If the other poster in question claims to be a member of FSSP (which is likely, as has been mentioned, a misnomer) then he is in violation of the Constitutions of that Society:

6.Founded in the spirit of the apostolic letter Motu proprio Ecclesia Dei Adflicta of Pope John Paul II (2 July 1988), the Priestly Fraternity of Saint Peter professes its fidelity to the Roman Pontiff, who, according to the words of the First Vatican Council (Pastor æternus), is the “successor of Blessed Peter, Prince of the Apostles, Vicar of Christ, head of the whole Church, the Father and Doctor of all Christians” (see Vatican Council II, Lumen Gentium, n. 22). “Each one of its members is held to obey the Supreme Pontiff as his highest superior” (Can. 590, §2).

Of course, though, dealing with that would be a matter between the member and his superior.

I would propose that if there is a poster or a FReeper (there is a difference) who is causing problems, then that poster should be the one receiving fraternal correction, a medicinal remedy, or expiation...rather than messing with your very well considered caucus definitions.

22 posted on 03/22/2014 3:43:32 AM PDT by markomalley (Nothing emboldens the wicked so greatly as the lack of courage on the part of the good -- Leo XIII)
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To: Religion Moderator
IMHO, how some folks classify themselves is more a matter of what's convenient at the moment than an honest characterization of what they believe.

For example, how many people could be routinely attending an SSPX or similar Mass even if they wanted to ? More fleas want to ride a well cared for old hound than can find one but they're still fleas whether they can find a hound or not.

Basically, some folks aren't happy unless they get to nail their own list of complaints about the Catholic Church to any door they see.

Like you, I can only look at a posting history and get an idea of where someone is coming from. I suppose that as long as someone says they're Catholic in full Communion with the Church the same way Nancy Pelosi echos John Hus but claims to be a faithful Catholic, then that's how they see their Self.

I wasn't actually thinking about whether or not a given poster should be commenting when a asked, "SSPX much?", I was wondering how someone believes they're helping anything by trying to read their viewpoint into even a really trivial bit of news.

I run across a lot of little things I feel would be useful, or very useful, to refer to when dealing with more complete treatments of topics in the news but which in and of themselves don't prove much of anything. Having all that available on FR seemed like a good idea as long as posting it didn't just add more noise than signal. Obviously, there's no real way to post such things and therefore no need to.

I am sorry for the hassle this has caused you and thought I had taken steps to avoid the need for your involvement. I stand corrected.

23 posted on 03/22/2014 4:52:40 AM PDT by Rashputin (Jesus Christ doesn't evacuate His troops, He leads them to victory.)
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To: markomalley
I would propose that if there is a poster or a FReeper (there is a difference) who is causing problems, then that poster should be the one receiving fraternal correction, a medicinal remedy, or expiation...rather than messing with your very well considered caucus definitions.

Thank you. That is where I am leaning though I will leave the issue open until this evening so others can weigh in.
24 posted on 03/22/2014 8:09:55 AM PDT by Religion Moderator
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To: Religion Moderator; ebb tide; steve86
The issue here is only how to avoid disruption on threads labeled "Catholic Caucus."

With respect, that isn't going to be possible, believe it or not sometimes people will disagree for the sheer sake of disagreeing... especially Catholics. If you suppress disruption in caucus threads by members of the caucus you'll end up stifling discussion. I suppose there could be a Novus Ordo caucus and a traddy caucus but that just seems silly.

25 posted on 03/22/2014 8:13:02 AM PDT by Legatus (Keep calm and carry on)
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To: Rashputin
It's no problem, my job is to foster religious debate or conversation. And that necessarily involves providing niches for all, sedate to noisy and all points in between.
26 posted on 03/22/2014 8:15:47 AM PDT by Religion Moderator
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To: Legatus

It is not unusual for religious groups to caucus on the Religion Forum based on a doctrine or interpretation, e.g. Dispensationalist Caucus. Sometimes posters want to discuss their own views without outside noise.


27 posted on 03/22/2014 8:31:58 AM PDT by Religion Moderator
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To: sitetest

Thanks, sitetest. You’ve pegged me pretty well about my concerns about Pope Francis and Pope John Paul II. I do miss Pope Benedict and his too short reign as the Vicar of Christ.


28 posted on 03/22/2014 6:19:02 PM PDT by ebb tide
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To: Religion Moderator
Sometimes posters want to discuss their own views without outside noise.

How is it "outside" noise if it's amongst the Caucus members?

29 posted on 03/22/2014 6:27:04 PM PDT by ebb tide
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To: ebb tide
It's like concentric spheres. What is "outside" to a smaller set may be "inside" to a larger set.

Or more to the point, if the caucus wants to discuss Novus Ordo liturgical matters, it may consider other Catholics to be "outsiders" in that discussion even though it considers them "insiders" in discussing Daily Mass Readings, etc.

30 posted on 03/22/2014 7:15:30 PM PDT by Religion Moderator
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To: Religion Moderator

**What are your opinions? **

It is distressing in some cases when trying to post a Catholic Caucus thread about a current event and labeling it only Catholic Caucus, since these supposed sedevacantists also choose to post on such a thread, demeaning the Pope and the Vatican.

Just my opinion.


31 posted on 03/22/2014 7:26:32 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Religion Moderator

I understand the concentric spheres concept. But who defines the spheres?

Take for instance your example of “Daily Mass Readings”. Traditional Roman Catholics, e.g. FFOTI, FFSP, ICK follow the traditional Catholic calendar; their daily Mass Readings are not the same as those posted on this forum; but I don’t see anybody complaining.


32 posted on 03/22/2014 7:46:50 PM PDT by ebb tide
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To: Salvation; Religion Moderator

Who are “these supposed sedevacanists”? Please name them and list the reasons you accuse them of such a title.


33 posted on 03/22/2014 7:49:53 PM PDT by ebb tide
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To: ebb tide

The spheres are defined by the ones posting caucus threads and by the moderators enforcing them.


34 posted on 03/22/2014 8:08:41 PM PDT by Religion Moderator
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To: Religion Moderator
Dear Religion Moderator,

The problem with the “concentric circles” idea is that folks who even fit within various “concentric circles” might not all agree with each other.

I'm not a traditionalist, just an ordinary Catholic. So, I'm certainly eligible for the Catholic Caucus, or even a narrower “Novus Ordo” Caucus. I am, at times, critical of the words and deeds of the current pope. Are you going to have a “Catholic Novus Ordo - Uncritical of Pope Francis Caucus” label to exclude my joining a thread about Pope Francis in which I might offer criticisms? Or how about the fact that I don't like most modern liturgical music? Are you going to have a “Catholic Novus Ordo - Love Haugen & Haas Music Caucus”? I prefer to receive in the hand. A “Catholic Novus Ordo - Communion Reception on the Tongue Caucus”? I don't like to hold hands at the Our Father. A “Catholic Novus Ordo - Our Father Hand-Holders Caucus”?

And then, among those Catholics who like the newer music, if one dislikes “On Eagles Wings,” and another takes offense, are we going to see a label of “Catholic Novus Ordo - Post-VII Liturgical Music, ‘On Eagles Wings’ Lovers Only Caucus:?

C’mon. This is silly.

The reason why a Catholic Caucus label works is that there is something identifiable as the Catholic Church, and there are objective criteria which define one as a Catholic. Nonetheless, that group of persons which properly belong to the Catholic Church are not monolithic, all of one opinion on every topic.

Like markomalley said, if someone otherwise violates the posting rules by personal attack, etc., then deal with that person. But as you said, the caucus label is to prevent EXTERNAL disruption of the talk of the labeled group, not to prevent disagreement within the labeled group.

Excluding actual Catholics in complete communion with the Bishop of Rome from Catholic Caucus threads is not a good idea at all.


sitetest

35 posted on 03/22/2014 8:21:47 PM PDT by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
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To: ebb tide

You’re welcome.


36 posted on 03/22/2014 8:23:26 PM PDT by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
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To: Religion Moderator

So please define the spheres. Do you consider traditional Catholics to be “Catholics”?


37 posted on 03/22/2014 8:24:31 PM PDT by ebb tide
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To: ebb tide; Rashputin; Salvation; NYer; NKP_Vet; sitetest; markomalley; Legatus; steve86
Thanks to those of you contributing to this sidebar. Your opinions are very helpful to me.

The decision is that the Religion Forum guidelines remain unchanged. FSSP is part of the "Catholic Caucus" as are all other identities in full communion with the Pope.

ebb tide, you are a member of the Catholic Caucus.

To all of you who post "caucus" labeled threads on the Religion Forum:

If you have a non-member of the caucus posting on the thread, DO NOT engage him except perhaps to mention that it is a caucus. Instead, let me know by Freepmail and I will get to it as soon as I can.

If you or other posters engage him, then when I pull every post he wrote and all the ones pinging him, the thread will look like Swiss cheese.

In the same way, if you have a trouble-maker on the caucus, DO NOT engage him except perhaps to ask him to quiet down. Let me know by Freepmail and I will deal with it as soon as possible.

If you need more immediate relief, then use the Abuse button.

sitetest, if a Catholic Freeper wanted to have a "communion by hand Catholic Caucus" he is certainly free to do so. But all the caucus rules apply. The article and reply posts cannot mention communion by mouth, etc.
38 posted on 03/22/2014 8:56:23 PM PDT by Religion Moderator
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To: Rashputin; KingOfVagabonds; Berlin_Freeper; UnRuley1; mlizzy; mc5cents; RichInOC; ...
+

Freep-mail me to get on or off my pro-life and Catholic List:

Add me / Remove me

Please ping me to note-worthy Pro-Life or Catholic threads, or other threads of general interest.

39 posted on 03/22/2014 9:04:37 PM PDT by narses (Matthew 7:6. He appears to have made up his mind let him live with the consequences.)
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