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Was "Babylon The Great" a Symbolic Name for Jerusalem?
March 22, 2014 | PhilipFreneau

Posted on 03/22/2014 1:35:03 PM PDT by PhilipFreneau

Was "Babylon The Great" a Symbolic Name for Jerusalem?


Recall that Jesus said:

"… it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem" (Luke 13:33.)

That is a very important statement to keep in mind when considering the following passages: and later in the same chapter of Luke, Jesus added:

"…I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute: That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation; From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation." (Luke 11:47-51 KJV)


That is pretty clear. Jerusalem is responsible for the blood of all the prophets, and at least some of the apostles. There is more in Matthew:

"Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in yoursynagogues, and persecute them from city to city: That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation." (Mat 23:34-36 KJV)


So, Jerusalem was not only responsible for the blood of all the prophets (and some apostles;) but for all the righteous blood shed upon the earth. And vengeance for that blood was required of the generation that Jesus was speaking to.

We all know that is exactly what happened within that generation: the Roman armies completely destroyed Jerusalem and the temple in 70 AD, fulfilling this prophecy by Jesus:

"And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down." (Mat 24:1-2 KJV)


But how do those verses compare to those on Babylon the Great found in the Revelation?

In the Revelation, Babylon the Great is also called the great whore, the mother of harlots, the great city, and the woman. In the context of blood responsibility, John mentions this:

"And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration." (Rev 17:6, KJV)

The first martyr of Jesus was Stephen, if I recall correctly; and there were many more. The next chapter reveals additional facts:

"And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth." (Rev 18:24, KJV)

But, according to Jesus, Jerusalem is supposed to be responsible for the blood of all the prophets; and Jerusalem is responsible for all the righteous blood? Yet, in the following verse we see that God avenged the blood of the apostles and prophets on Babylon the Great.

“Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.” (Rev 18:20, KJV)

And recall the first scripture at the top:

"… it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem" (Luke 13:33.)


So what do we know:

1. Jerusalem killed many of the apostles, yet their blood was avenged on Babylon the Great

2. Jerusalem is responsible for the blood of all the prophets, yet their blood was avenged on Babylon the Great.

3. Jerusalem was responsible for the blood of all the righteous, yet Babylon the Great was responsible for "all that were slain on the earth."


There are many other references in the Revelation that tie Babylon the Great to old Jerusalem. This is one of many:

"And their dead bodies [the two witnesses] shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified." (Rev 11:8 KJV)


It seem our Lord Jesus Christ was killed in both Babylon the Great and Jerusalem. It is difficult to imagine Babylon the Great being any other city than Jerusalem.

Philip


TOPICS: Theology
KEYWORDS: babylon; babylonthegreat; freneau; jerusalem; prophets; revelation; saints
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1 posted on 03/22/2014 1:35:03 PM PDT by PhilipFreneau
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To: PhilipFreneau

“Babylon” was literally an ancient city (located a little southwest of present day Baghdad, Iraq), a broader kingdom/empire, and symbolically a descriptor/label for the wicked/the worldly of all generations in all places for those people who choose the things of this world over the things of God.


2 posted on 03/22/2014 2:02:21 PM PDT by JustTheTruth
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To: JustTheTruth

I’m with JTT. In it’s heyday, Babylon was a center of pagan worship as well as of government operating without consideration of God’s will. Therefore it represents the all those who fail to worship God in “spirit and truth”.


3 posted on 03/22/2014 2:07:13 PM PDT by Still Thinking (Freedom is NOT a loophole!)
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To: JustTheTruth

>>>“Babylon” was literally an ancient city (located a little southwest of present day Baghdad, Iraq), a broader kingdom/empire, and symbolically a descriptor/label for the wicked/the worldly of all generations in all places for those people who choose the things of this world over the things of God.<<<

I agree with most of that. It also appears Babylon the Great was old Jerusalem.

Philip


4 posted on 03/22/2014 2:10:12 PM PDT by PhilipFreneau
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To: PhilipFreneau

It can be reference to Jerusalem.


5 posted on 03/22/2014 2:13:33 PM PDT by Star Traveler (Remember to keep the Messiah of Israel in the One-World Government that we look forward to coming)
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To: PhilipFreneau

my 2 cents on the NEW “Babylon”

A. San Francisco
B. New York city-
C. Washington D. C.
D. L.A.

Detroit does not count- it is already destroyed

:)


6 posted on 03/22/2014 2:32:12 PM PDT by mj1234
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To: PhilipFreneau
Sounds like Chicago.


7 posted on 03/22/2014 2:34:52 PM PDT by MuttTheHoople (Nothing is more savage and brutal than justifiably angry Americans. Don’t believe me? Ask the Germa)
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To: Still Thinking

>>>In it’s heyday, Babylon was a center of pagan worship as well as of government operating without consideration of God’s will. Therefore it represents the all those who fail to worship God in “spirit and truth”.<<<

That would include old Jerusalem, wouldn’t it?

Philip


8 posted on 03/22/2014 2:51:00 PM PDT by PhilipFreneau
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To: JustTheTruth; Still Thinking
>>>“Babylon” was literally an ancient city …. symbolically a descriptor/label for the wicked/the worldly of all generations in all places for those people who choose the things of this world over the things of God.<<<

Speaking of wicked, the following is what Flavius Josephus, an Orthodox Jewish Priest and historian, wrote about old Jerusalem in his book, Wars of the Jews:

"That neither did any other city ever suffer such miseries, nor did any age ever breed a generation more fruitful in wickedness than this was, from the beginning of the world." [Wars V.10.5]

Josephus was also a Jewish general, captured early in the war, and became an eye-witness. He personally believed the destruction caused by the Roman armies was God's judgement on Jerusalem because of it's wickedness.

Philip

9 posted on 03/22/2014 3:06:39 PM PDT by PhilipFreneau
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To: PhilipFreneau

I am convinced that the prophetic Babylon of the near future is also the City of Seven Hills, as Jesus states in Rev 17:9. Jerusalem never was the city that ruled the kings of the earth, Rev. 17:18. It is the home of the only church that is a sovereign nation, and with whom the major nations of the earth exchange ambassadors even today.

Some, if not many of those very nations would refuse to accept Israel’s declaration that Jerusalem is its national capital and would refuse to locate their embassies there. Indeed, they would happily vote to “internationalize” Jerusalem and send in “peace-keeping” soldiers if necessary to enforce their vote.

Nobody is talking about doing that to the sovereign nation of Vatican City.


10 posted on 03/22/2014 3:19:47 PM PDT by theBuckwheat
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To: theBuckwheat

Neither as the prophetic Babylon the Great is a business mecca of ‘merchants became rich selling her goods’, among other perverse things that are there(paraphrased,) from Revelations 18:1-9


11 posted on 03/22/2014 3:25:35 PM PDT by Kackikat
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To: theBuckwheat

Vatican City isn’t built on seven hills, and the hill it is built on wasn’t one of the seven hills of ancient Rome, all of which are on the opposite side of the Tiber.

Ancient Jerusalem, however, like ancient Rome, was noted as a city built on seven hills


12 posted on 03/22/2014 3:31:02 PM PDT by Campion ("Social justice" begins in the womb)
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Comment #13 Removed by Moderator

To: PhilipFreneau

“Babylon the Great” represents “worldly” culture that has rejected the true God for materialism, affluence and comfort. It is not a literal single city, but any place with an idolatrous materialistic character and worldview.

Also, the “harlot” is not a literal person, but she represents a culture and people that are obsessed with pleasure and sensuality and have rejected the Lord.

Both are alive and well in the world today.


14 posted on 03/22/2014 3:43:42 PM PDT by chickenlips (Karl Rove: The Donut Whisperer)
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To: PhilipFreneau

No. Supercessionism is sick.


15 posted on 03/22/2014 3:55:07 PM PDT by Tzfat
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To: PhilipFreneau

This would mean that Peter wrote his first epistle from Jerusalem and not Rome or the real Babylon.

1 Peter 5:13 The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son.


16 posted on 03/22/2014 4:18:03 PM PDT by Ruy Dias de Bivar (Sometimes you need 7+ more ammo. LOTS MORE.)
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To: Campion; theBuckwheat

Catholic apologist Karl Keating confirms that Rome was known as Babylon and cites 1 Peter:5:13 The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son.. 1 The Catholic Encyclopedia states, “It is within the city of Rome, called the city of seven hills, that the entire area of Vatican State proper is now confined.” [The Catholic Encyclopedia ( Thomas Nelson, 1976), under the heading, “Rome.”]


17 posted on 03/22/2014 4:50:10 PM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ)
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To: PhilipFreneau

Babylon is symbolic of Man’s effort to replace or overthrow God.

Just like Satan’s sin was pride and trying to exhale himself above God, Mankind has tried the same thing.

Since Mankind would have been successful in believing it had replaced God, God decided to confuses the languages.

As to the actual city, in different times, this will actually be a different place.

Jerusalem? No. Why? Because God has a special place for Jerusalem, not based on it’s or it’s inhabitant’s behavior. Once God makes a promise, it’s done.

And no, God cannot make mistakes, he has not replaced the Jews or Jerusalem. We must wait on his timing.


18 posted on 03/22/2014 5:01:58 PM PDT by BereanBrain
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To: BereanBrain

I like your homepage.


19 posted on 03/22/2014 5:05:03 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: theBuckwheat
>>>I am convinced that the prophetic Babylon of the near future is also the City of Seven Hills, as Jesus states in Rev 17:9. <<<

It doesn't say seven hills: it says seven mountains. The only city that sat on seven mountains in the ancient days was Jerusalem, that I am aware.

But I believe it is possible that it was referring to the Roman Empire as the beast, with the beast interpreted as the overall entity, rather than as one of the seven "kings." Recall the woman also sat upon the beast (Rev 17:3.)


>>>Jerusalem never was the city that ruled the kings of the earth, Rev. 17:18.<<<

That is a very good point. I pondered that for a long time until I researched the Greek. It appears the words kings and earth could have also been translated to read "the sovereigns of the land," which in the case of Judea would have been the local or provincial Jewish leaders. Using that translation, Jerusalem would have been the overall ruler, and would "reign" over the others.

Strong's translates earth to:

(1093) ghay ; contrete from a primary word; soil ; by extension a region , or the solid part or the whole of the terrene globe (including the occupants in each application): — country, earth (-ly), ground, land, world.

A word study produces this:

1) arable land
2) the ground, the earth as a standing place
3) the main land as opposed to the sea or water
4) the earth as a whole
       4a) the earth as opposed to the heavens
       4b) the inhabited earth, the abode of men and animals
5) a country, land enclosed within fixed boundaries, a tract of land, territory, region

Many uses of the same Greek word in the NT show local regions, such "land of Sodom," "land of Zabulon," etc.; but the translations are all over the place.

Strong's translates kings to:

(935) bas-il-yooce’ ; probably from (939) (ba>siv) (through the notion of a foundation of power); a sovereign (absact, relative or figurative): — king.

A word study produces this:

1) leader of the people, prince, commander, lord of the land, king


>>>It is the home of the only church that is a sovereign nation, and with whom the major nations of the earth exchange ambassadors even today.<<<

Which verse in the Revelation would that refer to?


>>>Some, if not many of those very nations would refuse to accept Israel’s declaration that Jerusalem is its national capital and would refuse to locate their embassies there. Indeed, they would happily vote to “internationalize” Jerusalem and send in “peace-keeping” soldiers if necessary to enforce their vote.<<<

I was referring to old Jerusalem that was destroyed in 70 AD. In other words, I believe Babylon the Great was destroyed in 70 AD, and it was also known as Jerusalem.

These things also happened in both Jerusalem and Babylon the Great:

“Then will I cause to cease from the cities of Judah, and from the streets of Jerusalem, the voice of mirth, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride: for the land shall be desolate.” (Jer 7:34)

“And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee . . .And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee:” (Rev 18:23-24)

Both were also made desolate.

I have read many commentaries that claim Babylon was the Papacy; but the Papacy will never be responsible for the blood of the prophets, apostles, and all the righteous slain upon the earth. Therefore, it can never be Babylon the Great, without massive spiritualization of the scriptures.

Jerusalem, on the other hand, was responsible for all of those. That was the point of this discussion: to explore other alternatives that the traditional, bandwagon interpretation.

Philip

20 posted on 03/22/2014 5:23:40 PM PDT by PhilipFreneau
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To: Ruy Dias de Bivar
>>>This would mean that Peter wrote his first epistle from Jerusalem and not Rome or the real Babylon.<<<

>>>1 Peter 5:13 The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son.<<<

The notion that Babylon represents Rome was made up out of thin air. There is no evidence of that connection, whatsoever; and there is certainly no evidence Peter wrote his epistle from Rome. In fact, there is not a whisper about Peter ever being in Rome. If you know of any, it would be much appreciated if you present it.

Peter and James appeared to spend their time in Jerusalem until the end; and there are some who believe they were the two witnesses who were killed in Jerusalem. If they were, it answers a lot of questions about the two witnesses.

Anyway, I will continue to believe that Peter wrote his epistle from "Babylon the Great," which was Jerusalem, until I see some evidence to the contrary.

Philip

21 posted on 03/22/2014 5:45:38 PM PDT by PhilipFreneau
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To: Tzfat

>>>No. Supercessionism is sick.<<<

Explain yourself.


22 posted on 03/22/2014 5:48:58 PM PDT by PhilipFreneau
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To: chickenlips

>>>“Babylon the Great” represents “worldly” culture that has rejected the true God for materialism, affluence and comfort. It is not a literal single city, but any place with an idolatrous materialistic character and worldview.<<<

Where does it say that?

Philip


23 posted on 03/22/2014 5:54:06 PM PDT by PhilipFreneau
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To: BereanBrain

>>>Babylon is symbolic of Man’s effort to replace or overthrow God.<<<

Where does it say that?

>>>Jerusalem? No. Why? Because God has a special place for Jerusalem, not based on it’s or it’s inhabitant’s behavior.<<<

Is that why it was completely destroyed and leveled in 70 AD, to the point that soldiers plowed salt into the soil? The word desolate took on a new meaning after the destruction of Jerusalem and the accompanying slaughter and starvation that killed over 1.1 million people. It doesn’t sound so special to me.

New Jerusalem, on the other hand, now that sounds special.

>>>Once God makes a promise, it’s done.<<<

What was that promise?

Philip


24 posted on 03/22/2014 5:59:49 PM PDT by PhilipFreneau
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To: PhilipFreneau

>> “Was “Babylon The Great” a Symbolic Name for Jerusalem?” <<

.
No, definitely not.

“That Great city called Sodom and Egypt, wherein our Savior was crucified...” (Rev 11)

Babylon is the Biblical name of Satan’s global system, that he has nurtured since Cain was cast out to the wilderness.
.

The catholic church is the ecclesiastical branch of Mystery Babylon. (there are two separate operational branches to Babylon, as pointed out by Alexander Hislop; that is why Isaiah prophesied “Mystery Babylon is fallen is fallen.” There will be two separate falls, centered on two separate cities.)
.


25 posted on 03/22/2014 5:59:59 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: editor-surveyor

>>>Babylon is the Biblical name of Satan’s global system, that he has nurtured since Cain was cast out to the wilderness.<<<

Where can that be found in the scriptures?

>>>The catholic church is the ecclesiastical branch of Mystery Babylon. (there are two separate operational branches to Babylon, as pointed out by Alexander Hislop; that is why Isaiah prophesied “Mystery Babylon is fallen is fallen.” There will be two separate falls, centered on two separate cities.)<<<

When did the catholic church kill all the prophets?

Philip


26 posted on 03/22/2014 6:01:53 PM PDT by PhilipFreneau
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To: CynicalBear; Campion; theBuckwheat

>>>Catholic apologist Karl Keating confirms that Rome was known as Babylon and cites 1 Peter:5:13 The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son.. 1 The Catholic Encyclopedia states, “It is within the city of Rome, called the city of seven hills, that the entire area of Vatican State proper is now confined.” [The Catholic Encyclopedia ( Thomas Nelson, 1976), under the heading, “Rome.”]<<<

When did the catholic church kill all the prophets?

Philip


27 posted on 03/22/2014 6:03:57 PM PDT by PhilipFreneau
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To: chickenlips

>> “Babylon the Great” represents “worldly” culture that has rejected the true God for materialism, affluence and comfort. <<

.
No, it is more than that. It is Satan’s web of control of all Earthly endeavor, secular, and ecclesiastical.
.


28 posted on 03/22/2014 6:05:17 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: Ruy Dias de Bivar

Considering that Peter specifically calls out the Hebrew settlements of the area that was then known as Babylon as the intended recipients of the epistle, I suspect that was where he was when he wrote it.
.


29 posted on 03/22/2014 6:12:43 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: PhilipFreneau

>> “When did the catholic church kill all the prophets?” <<

.
The catholic church slaughtered all the real followers of Yeshua, and all the Jews, that they could find, from the fourth through fifteenth centuries.
.

The description of Babylon in The Revelation is easily recognized as the Vatican, and the British royal family.
.


30 posted on 03/22/2014 6:21:56 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: PhilipFreneau

And who sits “as a queen” in Jerusalem?
.
.


31 posted on 03/22/2014 6:23:40 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: PhilipFreneau

Sure, because by that time Judaism was no longer the true religion (post Pentecost). Anyway, the form of Judaism still extant by that time was hopelessly corrupt anyway. That’s why the native branch of the olive tree would be chopped off and another grafted in.


32 posted on 03/22/2014 6:32:04 PM PDT by Still Thinking (Freedom is NOT a loophole!)
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To: editor-surveyor

>>>The catholic church slaughtered all the real followers of Yeshua, and all the Jews, that they could find, from the fourth through fifteenth centuries.<<<

But no prophets? No apostles? I guess we can strike the catholic church from the list of potential Babylon the Greats.

>>>The description of Babylon in The Revelation is easily recognized as the Vatican, and the British royal family.<<<

You are kidding, right?

Philip


33 posted on 03/22/2014 6:32:33 PM PDT by PhilipFreneau
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To: editor-surveyor

>>>And who sits “as a queen” in Jerusalem?<<<

It doesn’t say “who.” It says “she,” “the city.” She was also labeled a Harlot, just like Jerusalem by the old testament prophets.

Read some of Josephus’ works. Jerusalem was the “showcase of the middle east,” in its day. It was a splendid city: maybe even “A Queen” among cities.

No matter. The written word is all that matters. We have to determine which city was responsible for the blood of the prophets, and we will find Babylon the Great.

Philip


34 posted on 03/22/2014 6:39:41 PM PDT by PhilipFreneau
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To: Still Thinking

>>>Sure, because by that time Judaism was no longer the true religion (post Pentecost). Anyway, the form of Judaism still extant by that time was hopelessly corrupt anyway. That’s why the native branch of the olive tree would be chopped off and another grafted in.<<<

Good post! I also recall reading that some of the natural branches would also be grafted back in. To me that can only mean one thing: God is no respecter of persons.

Philip


35 posted on 03/22/2014 6:45:31 PM PDT by PhilipFreneau
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To: PhilipFreneau

Read it again. It definitely is a real queen.


36 posted on 03/22/2014 6:50:32 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: PhilipFreneau

Rome slaughtered ALL of the apostles.
.


37 posted on 03/22/2014 6:51:53 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: editor-surveyor

>>>Considering that Peter specifically calls out the Hebrew settlements of the area that was then known as Babylon as the intended recipients of the epistle, I suspect that was where he was when he wrote it.<<<

I recall that Peter wrote his epistle to strangers scattered throughout Asia Minor, including Proconsular Asia. What areas are you referring to?

Philip


38 posted on 03/22/2014 6:56:19 PM PDT by PhilipFreneau
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To: editor-surveyor

>>>Rome slaughtered ALL of the apostles.<<<

You forgot to include your sarcasm tags. You are kidding, right?

Philip


39 posted on 03/22/2014 6:57:59 PM PDT by PhilipFreneau
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To: PhilipFreneau

If you look up the word used for “strangers” in the Greek text, you will see that he was speaking to his Hebrew cousins is the area below the Black sea.


40 posted on 03/22/2014 7:00:02 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: PhilipFreneau

Get real!


41 posted on 03/22/2014 7:01:12 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: PhilipFreneau

Rev 17
1
And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:

How could it be said that Jerusalem sit up on many waters?
They have a big problem staying in control of their own land.

2
With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.

In times past the Church shared power with many kings and in some cases even controlled them.

3
So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

4
And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

Golden cup? wine? communion?

5
And upon her forehead was a name written, Mystery, Babylon The Great, The Mother Of Harlots And Abominations Of The Earth.

6
And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

Does it read that the blood of the saints was on her hands? no, it says she was drunken with the blood of the saints.

Could it be she was falsely representing the saints and therefore drunken (figuratively speaking) on the blood that they shed?

Was she drinking from the golden communion cup unworthily?.

While it is true that Rome itself sits on and around the seven hills and was surrounded by a wall the Vatican is in Rome.

The mother Church and her daughters are the only ones that fit the bill, we can see a lot just by reading a little history.

rev 18
4
And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

Who is God talking to here? he says my people, are we who are reading his word and wondering about it his people? i think so.

Why would he be telling his people to come out of Israel, or parts of the Muslim world? why would he feel the need to?

He is telling us to come out of something we love and even worship.

I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:

The Church and her daughters are all over the world, many waters which represent multitudes of people.


42 posted on 03/22/2014 7:10:44 PM PDT by ravenwolf (ost void of pend)
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To: PhilipFreneau

I think it was said that the other branches “could” be grafted back in. IIRC, it was said as a warning to Gentile Christians, that if God would lop off the Jewish branches for corruption, they would certainly not be spared the same fate if they too failed to be obedient. But your basic point is right, that now God views everyone the same, whether Jew or Greek, slave or freeman, etc., as Paul said.


43 posted on 03/22/2014 7:12:18 PM PDT by Still Thinking (Freedom is NOT a loophole!)
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To: PhilipFreneau
Babylon was the center for paganism and pagan practices. That Catholic Church has incorporated many of the pagan Babylonian practices into their religion. It was the pagans who killed the prophets.

With your system of hermeneutics I would seriously doubt you would understand the connection

44 posted on 03/22/2014 7:19:42 PM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ)
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To: PhilipFreneau

The answer to your question in the title is no. The stuff you are peddling is Supercessionism.


45 posted on 03/22/2014 7:21:19 PM PDT by Tzfat
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To: Tzfat
>> The stuff you are peddling is Supercessionism.<<

That goes hand in hand with Preterism.

46 posted on 03/22/2014 7:26:44 PM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ)
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To: CynicalBear

Yup. Eventually, it gets millions of Jews murdered. Sick stuff.


47 posted on 03/22/2014 7:28:34 PM PDT by Tzfat
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To: editor-surveyor
This is the scripture you quoted:

"How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow. (Rev 18:7)

This is from the Revelation, identifying the great city as Jerusalem (where our Lord was crucified):

"And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified." (Rev 11:8 KJV)

This identifies Babylon as the great city, and as a "she""

"And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication." (Rev 14:8 KJV)

This identifies the great whore as Babylon the Great, Mother of Harlots; and as a woman:

"And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters: With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication…. And upon her forehead was a name written, Mystery, Babylon The Great, The Mother Of Harlots And Abominations Of The Earth. And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration." (Rev 17:1-2, 5-6 KJV)

This identifies the woman as the great city:

"And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth." (Rev 17:18 KJV)

This identifies Babylon, the great city, as a "queen" in her heart. Keep in mind that God called her a whore:

"And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies. And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities. Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double. How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow. Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her. And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning, Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come." (Rev 18:2-10 KJV)

So, the "queen" is the great city, Babylon, Mother of Harlots, which was Jerusalem until 70 AD when she was made desolate. She became a widow alright. This is from Lamentations talking about Jerusalem:

"How doth the city sit solitary, that was full of people! how is she become as a widow! she that was great among the nations, and princess among the provinces, how is she become tributary!" (Lam 1:1 KJV)

Philip

48 posted on 03/22/2014 7:28:37 PM PDT by PhilipFreneau
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To: Tzfat

>>>The answer to your question in the title is no. The stuff you are peddling is Supercessionism.<<<

Thanks for the contribution. When you get some time off from your name-calling supersession, how about contributing a supporting scripture, or two.

Philip


49 posted on 03/22/2014 7:30:00 PM PDT by PhilipFreneau
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To: CynicalBear

>>>Babylon was the center for paganism and pagan practices. That Catholic Church has incorporated many of the pagan Babylonian practices into their religion. It was the pagans who killed the prophets.<<<

Jesus said it was Jerusalem (implying the Jewish leadership.) Do I believe you, or Jesus?

>>>With your system of hermeneutics I would seriously doubt you would understand the connection.<<<

If I had your system, I seriously doubt I would care.

Philip


50 posted on 03/22/2014 7:31:51 PM PDT by PhilipFreneau
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