Posted on 03/31/2014 7:35:15 AM PDT by Laissez-faire capitalist
A.) When the vote was taken on July 1870, at the First Vatican Council, with 433 votes in favour (placet) and only 2 against (non placet) against defining as dogma the infallibility of the pope when speaking ex cathedra, did those Bishops possess infallibility when (or at least only when) voting? Did any of them keep this infallibility (did it remain with all of them or any of them) after they left and returned home? Did any of these Bishops possess any infallibility at anytime before the vote was cast?
B.) Was Mary's (the Mother of Jesus) mother immaculately conceived as Mary was? Was Mary's grandmother immaculately conceived, too? If so, was there near-infinite regression of these immaculate conceptions? If so, how far back did these immaculate conceptions go? If they did not go back farther than two, why were only two and not say three or four immaculate conceptions needed?
C.) When the Apostle Paul confronted Peter (when Peter was being hypocritical concerning his eating with Jews and Gentiles), did the Apostle Paul possess infallibility when stating that Gentiles did NOT have to be circumcised as a requisite for being a Christian? If so, how many other Apostles possessed infallibility in their actions that were later recorded in the Book of Acts?
D.) During the time of the Western Great Schism of 1378, if papal infallibility was in existence at that time (and only later just codified), how could any person who was not one of the two Popes infallibly know (if they did not possess any measure of infallibility) which POpe was legitimate until this was later worked out? What about that period of time? Were people left "twisting in the wind?"
“You are Peter and on this Rock, I will build my Church.”
It’s all about the Biblical Rock of Christ, and as explained by others, infallibility is quite a limited concept. FWIW, the deeper things of God are always easy to skew, misrepresent or misinterpret.
BTW, Wikipedia is good pretty much for the LINKS it provides.
And Encyclopedia Brittanica is quite an excellent source -—that wiki provided...
Adam was created from the dust of the earth; Eve from his rib. Neither were “conceived.”
To me - and I admit to being less than an expert - to be conceived immaculately means conception without human impregnation (which is to be conceived without Original Sin) which I accept readily in the case of Jesus but not His mother.
What are you talking about?
It would be easier if you simply said which two people you think were conceived immaculately and what you think that means.
Hint: There is only one person that the Catholic Church teaches that was the product of an immaculate conception.
Why would anyone want a pagan title, pagan office (complete with pagan rites) that Roman Emperors possessed for quite a long time?
Kind of like taking an altar to Baal and consecrating it to Yahweh. I don’t think that Elijah would approve...
It is easier to believe that all humans are born free of sin than to believe in original sin of mankind. After all what is more innocent than a newborn. So in reality it is a matter of faith that we are all born into sin as opposed to choosing it.
The idea of the Immaculate Conception is that the Christ would not be born through woman that carried original sin. Since God decided to burden all mankind with original sin, he has every right to exempt whomever he desires from the stain of that original sin.
Also the idea is that the Pope is not infallible in all regards, only in the regards of speaking on maters of Faith and Morals. It is believed that it is not he the Pope or even the Church talking when the Pope speaks Ex Cathedra, it is the Holly Spirit speaking through the Pope. The Pope is called the Vicar of Christ because he is the “Earthly representative of God or Christ” . Yet, he is till only a man. Often a very human man with very real short comings and sometimes very many sins.
Adam, obviously.
Now, was Adam created immaculately or not?
I see. You have a completely incorrect understanding of the term as defined by the Catholic Church.
There is no point in discussing this until you educate yourself about the terms in use.
Thats funny, at least in the late 2nd century AD, 4 out of the 5 major centers of Christendom (Constantinople, Jerusalem, Antioch and Alexandria) did NOT agree with the primacy of the Bishop of Rome.
And yes, I agree with you.
Rome did skew, misinterpret and misrepresent the deeper things of God - but your Ad Hominem attack against me is duly noted - a personal attack that was meant to take this away from discussion and to make it personal.
Since sin enetered the world through Adam, God did not need Joseph physically in His plan for the redemption of man.
Sin did not enter the world through Eve, as sin is passed on through the loins of men, not women, thus there was no need for Mary the mother of Jesus to be immaculately conceived.
No he is never sitting in the chair when he speaks Ex Cathedra. That is simply a phrase denoting the power of the Papacy. As it comes directly from the Seat of Peter. The Holly See,The Eternal Church. Direct from God as the Holy Spirit speaking through the Pope.
I have no interest in debating anyone about the authenticity of Church teachings. They are what they are.
If you desire to bash the Church do so. I don’t have to play along. If you desire an education and understanding Please, feel free to ask others or do a little research. The Church is certainly well represented on the Inter-Webs and a simple Google question will result in many millions of returns.
If you desire not to follow the Church teachings but want to still call yourself a Christian there are more than 35,000 Christian Denominations to choose from.
I just read it and I laughed.
“maintaining that from the moment when she was conceived in the womb, the Blessed Virgin Mary was kept free of original sin”
There is ZERO evidence of that in the Bible and in fact quite the opposite.
That’s your decision. Just know that words are used that do not mean what you think they mean.
Was Adam created immaculately or not?
Where is this “sin is found in the sperm” idea found in the Bible anyway?
I am a loyal and faithful Catholic. But that doesn’t mean I blindly go along with EVERYTHING uttered by the leadership. Here in the L.A. Archdiocese, I sharply disagree with our current Archbishop’s position on illegal immigration, among some other issues.
Take your bigotry out on someone else. I am only answering a question. I have no desire to debate Catholic bashing Bigots as it would be a never ending battle.
Look to one of the many Schismatic churches if you desire an alternative. There have been well over 35,000 alternative Protestant religions.
So James, the leader of the Jerusalem Council, the FIRST center for Christendom before Antioch, possessed infallibility when he uttered his final pronouncement after all of those present finished conferring?
Interesting...
Laugh all you want, just don’t be ignorant.
Do please consult the catechism. Immaculate conception, as we feelthy papists use the term, has nothing to do with sexual intercourse. Wity respect to biology, Mary was conceived in the normal manner.
There’s plenty to argue about, if arguing is the goal. But the coversation will go better if it’s about a position we actually maintain.
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