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The Protestant's Dilemma
http://protestantsdilemma.com/ ^ | February 27, 2014 | Devin Rose

Posted on 03/31/2014 7:54:31 PM PDT by NKP_Vet

What if Protestantism were true? What if the Reformers really were heroes, the Bible the sole rule of faith, and Christ's Church just an invisible collection of loosely united believers?

As an Evangelical, Devin Rose used to believe all of it. Then one day the nagging questions began. He noticed things about Protestant belief and practice that didn't add up. He began following the logic of Protestant claims to places he never expected it to go—leading to conclusions no Christians would ever admit to holding.

In The Protestant's Dilemma, Rose examines over thirty of those conclusions, showing with solid evidence, compelling reason, and gentle humor how the major tenets of Protestantism—if honestly pursued to their furthest extent— wind up in dead ends of absurdity.

The only escape? Catholic truth, which Rose patiently unpacks. In each instance, he shows how Catholicism solves the Protestant's dilemma through the witness of Scripture, Christian history, and the authority with which Christ himself undeniably vested his Church.

The Protestant's Dilemma is the perfect book to give non-Catholics trying to work through their own nagging doubts, or for Catholics looking for a fresh way to deepen their understanding of the Faith.

(Excerpt) Read more at protestantsdilemma.com ...


TOPICS: Apologetics; History; Theology; Worship
KEYWORDS:
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When as a Protestant I began to explore Catholicism, I Googled, "Why become Catholic?" What I was really searching for was a book like The Protestant's Dilemma. This book pokes, prods, and wrestles with Protestant beliefs, showing how they come up short and how the Catholic alternatives are true. If you struggle with the claims of Protestantism—or even if you feel satisfied with them!—The Protestant's Dilemma will open your eyes to the rich, logical, biblical claims of the Catholic Church.—Brandon Vogt, Word on Fire Catholic Ministries

As a former Protestant pastor, I wish that I had read The Protestant's Dilemma years ago. Devin Rose serves as a theological tour guide, leading the Protestant from the parlor of Martin Luther to the high altar of St. Peter's Basilica. Along the way, he demonstrates that each and every step toward the Catholic Church conforms to Sacred Scripture and Church history. This is the guidebook to get you from the Reformation to Rome.—Taylor Marshall, author of The Crucified Rabbi: Judaism & the Origins of Catholicism

1 posted on 03/31/2014 7:54:31 PM PDT by NKP_Vet
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To: NKP_Vet

Why?? Because one of these tonight just isn’t enough, right?


2 posted on 03/31/2014 7:56:08 PM PDT by BipolarBob
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To: NKP_Vet

I like that St. Crispin’s Day quote in your profile.


3 posted on 03/31/2014 7:56:43 PM PDT by aposiopetic
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To: BipolarBob

How true!


4 posted on 03/31/2014 7:57:15 PM PDT by aposiopetic
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To: BipolarBob

It really is a stain on FR that they let this go on.


5 posted on 03/31/2014 8:00:44 PM PDT by DManA
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To: NKP_Vet

Another stalker article, with Catholics yet again obsessed with Protestants. Do they know Protestants rarely ponder Catholicism?

Its creepy,,, we don’t hate you, but we really aren’t coming back. Even if you slash our tires and send us cards. Don’t make us get a restraining order.


6 posted on 03/31/2014 8:05:23 PM PDT by DesertRhino (I was standing with a rifle, waiting for soviet paratroopers, but communists just ran for office.)
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To: NKP_Vet

I would prefer to read good summaries of the key arguments but all I can find at the link is advert to purchase the book ( did I overlook something?)


7 posted on 03/31/2014 8:07:18 PM PDT by faithhopecharity ((Brilliant, Profound Tag Line Goes Here, just as soon as I can think of one..))
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To: DManA

And FR is biased on this question.


8 posted on 03/31/2014 8:09:28 PM PDT by DManA
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To: NKP_Vet

Does the book talk about Catholic bishops hiding and protecting child-molesting priests? I know there may not be any more molestors in the Catholic priesthood than any other profession, but that’s not the point. The Catholic hierarchy shielded them, shunted them from parish to parish - exposing new congregations to potential danger - and that’s the real scandal. An institution that is wholly top-down in its power structure gives us a lesson in how power corrupts.

This is why Protestantism isn’t going to go away - many Christians want to have a voice in church government, and to be treated like adults, not children. This is the same impetus that gave rise to the American Revolution. Which was a largely protestant movement, as it happens.


9 posted on 03/31/2014 8:09:35 PM PDT by WilliamIII
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To: NKP_Vet; logitech

While I’m not sure what catholics mean by “protestant,” I’m guessing they simply mean people who take the Lord at His Word and rely on the Bible and who don’t rely on man-made traditions and works for their salvation, but who instead rely solely on Jesus—you know, just like Jesus told us to. I’ll take the Lord’s Word over corrupt, man-made, extra-biblical traditions ANY DAY.


10 posted on 03/31/2014 8:11:28 PM PDT by WXRGina (The Founding Fathers would be shooting by now.)
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To: NKP_Vet

Nice ad, typical Catholic analysis. Kevin Trudeau Part Two.


11 posted on 03/31/2014 8:11:34 PM PDT by xone
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To: DManA
And FR is biased on this question.

Yes, it is. I imagine that because there's a huge catholic presence here, and they donate, it is what it is.

12 posted on 03/31/2014 8:13:15 PM PDT by WXRGina (The Founding Fathers would be shooting by now.)
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To: NKP_Vet
Why repeat the SAME article in a thread that is also the same??? Do you claim to not be intentionally provoking Protestants once again?

This was posted on March 18 The Protestant's Dilemma

It went up to 820 posts that only ceased input last Saturday. Why did you need to repost? Hasn't pretty much everything that can be said already been said???

13 posted on 03/31/2014 8:13:54 PM PDT by boatbums (Simul justis et peccator.)
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To: NKP_Vet

It is amazing that you allow Protestants to live rent free in your head.


14 posted on 03/31/2014 8:14:56 PM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion
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To: NKP_Vet

There is no content in this post.

It is an advertisement only.

It doesn’t introduce any arguments or facts for us to discuss.


15 posted on 03/31/2014 8:15:27 PM PDT by Mount Athos (A Giant luxury mega-mansion for Gore, a Government Green EcoShack made of poo for you)
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To: NKP_Vet

Another one bashing Protestants. Isn’t one a night enough? What is it with you Catholics? Aren’t y’all secure in your beliefs? I have never seen one religious group so obnoxious.


16 posted on 03/31/2014 8:16:15 PM PDT by MamaB
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To: DesertRhino

I’d believe that if certain posters didn’t ping the entire contingent of FR protestantism when making a reply to a thread on the RF.


17 posted on 03/31/2014 8:16:40 PM PDT by JPX2011
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To: WXRGina

Frankly, I don’t think it’s that huge. The same names post A LOT.


18 posted on 03/31/2014 8:17:25 PM PDT by DManA
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To: DManA

I will agree with you on this. The hit pieces are tiresome.


19 posted on 03/31/2014 8:18:53 PM PDT by F15Eagle (1Jn4:15;5:4-5,11-13;Mt27:50-54;Mk15:33-34;Jn3:17-18,6:69,11:25,14:6,20:31;Ro10:8-11;1Tm2:5-6;Ti3:4-7)
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To: faithhopecharity
The very heart of the differences is the true meaning of the Eucharist. Some mainline Protestants believe it almost the same as the Catholic doctrine, but other mainliners like Methodists for one and the younger groups like AOG just can't wrap their mind around that it might be something more than symbolic if they even bother with it.

I started getting into a discussion about it with a friend who talks faster than I do ;-) and she didn't want to hear what I had to say after I informed her that I have issues with the Catholic church but the most basic doctrine is if you believe in your heart and confess with your mouth that Jesus Christ is Lord you will be saved. I explained that a Catholic who recites the creed and thinking about the words they are reciting believe in their hearts and confess with their mouths " . . . . we believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, only son of the Father." I got that much out, not sure which creed, not the Apostles but the Athanasian or Nicean.

With me it's not a case that one side is all wrong and the other side is all right.

I've been stuck on it for a few years now, I think the bible alone can save if that's all a person has, but it would be good to know the right teaching about the Eucharist and then work on the other areas of misunderstanding. There are many things Catholics believe that are not required for belief, just that over the years, private revelations and experiences become popular, especially by culture.

20 posted on 03/31/2014 8:22:00 PM PDT by Aliska
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To: MamaB

My former roommate was like this as well. Nearly 24/7.

Way over the top and terribly-obssessed with it.

Always looking for an argument and making all sorts of jabs.

Like when I left the kitchen lights off, because the computer doesn’t need and the screen is in fact, harder to see with lights, he jumped in 1 second after hitting the door about “Boy, you Protestants love the darkness, don’t you?”.

Good gosh.


21 posted on 03/31/2014 8:22:11 PM PDT by F15Eagle (1Jn4:15;5:4-5,11-13;Mt27:50-54;Mk15:33-34;Jn3:17-18,6:69,11:25,14:6,20:31;Ro10:8-11;1Tm2:5-6;Ti3:4-7)
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To: dsc

One for your collection of threads and posts that you claim NEVER bash Protestants.


22 posted on 03/31/2014 8:22:21 PM PDT by boatbums (Simul justis et peccator.)
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To: JPX2011

Don’t see it here on this one. And besides, is pinging only allowed for Catholics?


23 posted on 03/31/2014 8:22:25 PM PDT by DesertRhino (I was standing with a rifle, waiting for soviet paratroopers, but communists just ran for office.)
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To: WXRGina

“While I’m not sure what catholics mean by “protestant,” I’m guessing they simply mean people who take the Lord at His Word and rely on the Bible and who don’t rely on man-made traditions and works for their salvation, but who instead rely solely on Jesus—you know, just like Jesus told us to. I’ll take the Lord’s Word over corrupt, man-made, extra-biblical traditions ANY DAY.”

AMEN!


24 posted on 03/31/2014 8:24:06 PM PDT by bk1000 (A clear conscience is a sure sign of a poor memory)
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To: NKP_Vet
In The Protestant's Dilemma, Rose examines over thirty of those conclusions, showing with solid evidence, compelling reason, and gentle humor how the major tenets of Protestantism—if honestly pursued to their furthest extent— wind up in dead ends of absurdity.

You do recognize that this is the essence of the logical fallacy of reductio ad absurdum? It is really nothing more than a straw man argument and proves nothing.

Honestly pursued? A critic of a doctrine has little credibility in claiming to honestly pursue it. Everyone knows that the examination is only being done to discredit the idea.

25 posted on 03/31/2014 8:25:06 PM PDT by CommerceComet (Ignore the GOP-e. Cruz to victory in 2016.)
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To: DesertRhino

Not at all. But it’s been my experience when discussing religion with protestants on FR it is rarely a one-on-one discussion. Why are people being pinged to a discussion that they aren’t even a part of? For their own edification and understanding to the poster’s point? Color me skeptical. Protestants jump on Catholics as if they were playing knockout king.


26 posted on 03/31/2014 8:27:42 PM PDT by JPX2011
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To: WXRGina; DManA

I think you are way, way, way off track there.


27 posted on 03/31/2014 8:28:53 PM PDT by ansel12 ((Libertarianism offers the transitory concepts and dialogue to move from conservatism, to liberalism)
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To: ansel12

Maybe. There are simple ways to deal with this but they refuse to do it.


28 posted on 03/31/2014 8:30:21 PM PDT by DManA
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To: JPX2011; DesertRhino
Protestants jump on Catholics as if they were playing knockout king.

Oh you poor, pitiful, persecuted papists! This thread, as well as several others just today, is a REPEAT of one posted a mere two weeks ago and is designed to intentionally provoke non-Catholic Christians. Don't whine when answers come back.

29 posted on 03/31/2014 8:34:35 PM PDT by boatbums (Simul justis et peccator.)
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To: boatbums

Oh I ain’t whining. Just making an observation. Which I noticed you didn’t deny. But that’s okay. I’d wager money on one good catechized Catholic versus a horde of Protestants and their cognitive dissonance.

However, I’ll remember your intentionally provoke comment the next time certain members of the FR protestant contingent decides to post Protestant Pedoporn. Which is done purely for news consumption I’m sure.


30 posted on 03/31/2014 8:44:23 PM PDT by JPX2011
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To: NKP_Vet

Tell me again, which Saint do I pray to to eliminate the smells from farts?


31 posted on 03/31/2014 8:46:01 PM PDT by ConservativeMind ("Humane" = "Don't pen up pets or eat meat, but allow infanticide, abortion, and euthanasia.")
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To: NKP_Vet
The only escape? Catholic truth

Coming Home Network

32 posted on 03/31/2014 8:47:45 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: NKP_Vet

Oh, and where can people pray before “The Holy Toenail” shrine?


33 posted on 03/31/2014 8:48:15 PM PDT by ConservativeMind ("Humane" = "Don't pen up pets or eat meat, but allow infanticide, abortion, and euthanasia.")
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To: DesertRhino

Many Protestants convert because one Catholic dared to share the truth.


34 posted on 03/31/2014 8:48:41 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: NKP_Vet

Nothing like feasting on the rotten fruit of the religious forums at free republic.


35 posted on 03/31/2014 8:56:09 PM PDT by right way right (America has embraced the suck of Freedumb.)
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To: boatbums

Every “ism” will miss the mark on Christ.


36 posted on 03/31/2014 8:57:00 PM PDT by HiTech RedNeck (Embrace the Lion of Judah and He will roar for you and teach you to roar too. See my page.)
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To: Salvation

Many Catholics believe because one Protestant witnessed.


37 posted on 03/31/2014 8:57:28 PM PDT by HiTech RedNeck (Embrace the Lion of Judah and He will roar for you and teach you to roar too. See my page.)
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To: NKP_Vet

The whole premise is ridiculous. I’m not a Protestant, I’m a Christian. Catholicism is a “religion”. I don’t belong to a religion, I belong to Jesus.

Now I attend a church affiliated with the Southern Baptist Convention, but I’m not a Baptist, again, I’m a Christian.

I didn’t CHOOSE to be a Protestant, I read the bible.
Billy Graham wasn’t in there and the pope wasn’t in there. Mary was in there, but she had a very small role. It was about God of the old testament and the Savior to come and Jesus of the new testament, born, died, and risen to forgive the sins of the world for those who accepted Him.

It’s not about what “club” you belong to, Protestant or Catholic. These are silly labels invented by men.

Just be a Christian. There even is an instruction book to follow. You don’t need other books or people to tell you what it means. The Holy Spirit will guide you.


38 posted on 03/31/2014 9:04:06 PM PDT by faucetman ( Just the facts, ma'am, Just the facts)
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To: Aliska

Thank you very much.
1. nature of the Eucharist or Lord’s supper...
a. RCC: literally the body and blood of Jesus (Matt. 26:26-28)
b. Ignatius of Antioch: “The Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior, Jesus Christ...”
c. Justin Martyr: ...”the elements are both the flesh and blood of that same incarnate Jesus...”
d. Clement — may have leaned to a more symbolic understanding?
e. Origin — may have leaned to a more symbolic understanding?
f. Augustine — referred to the bread and wine as the body and blood, but also distinguished between the sign and the thing signified (in that he believed that non-believers partaking of the Eucharist do not partake of the body even though they ingest the bread....)so that, in modern language, we might say Augustine saw the Eucharist as principally symbolic
g. conclusion of above by about year 500 or so — Christ IS at least spiritually in the Eucharist (”the real presence” doctrine), with some probably still holding to the “actual body and blood” perspective


h. in year 818, Paschasius Radbertus (abbot) said that the regular bread and wine are transformed into the actual body and blood of wine (by the priest, so this raises the additional question of the role and “powers” of the priesthood in the church, the two questions now become intertwined!)...
i. arguments against Paschasius — he confuses the sign with that which is signified (Rabanus Maurus)
j. in year 1050, Berenger of Tours said that Jesus is present not in essence but in power, and that the recipient must have faith for this power to be effective. (Note how this harkens back to Augustine in a way that the recipient must have faith for anything to happen)
k. 1089 priest Humbert: the very body of Christ ... is truly chewed by the teeth of the faithful “ (literal view again)
l. Hildebert of Tours agrees with Humbert, literal view.
m. 4th Lateran Council in 1225: adopted this literal view.
n. Thomas Aquinas — God performs a miracle by causing the Eucharist to change into, or at least contain (I can’t recall) the actual body and blood of Christ..even though we can’t see the difference (falling back on Aristotle that an object can have an Essence which we maybe cannot discern with our limited senses — so the assertion can be put forward without fear of refutation by any evidence to the contrary)
o. Council of Trent in 1546: the entire body, blood, soul, and divinity of Christ are present in their entirety in the Eucharist (upon consecration by the priest), which in turn may properly be venerated
p. Luther, as a RCC priest, began with the then-current transsubstantiation view of the Eucharist, that it IS the body and blood, once consecrated by him or another priest...... and then moved to a “real presence” point of view (cosubstantiation), that Christ is present IN the Eucharist but the Eucharist remains real unchanged bread and wine just like the look like...
Luther maintained this POV but Zvingli argued that some scriptural passages were meant to be taken symbolically or figuratively...that to force a strictly literal reading on everything is both unnatural and unsubstantiated (so to speak). Zvingli argued that Christ moved away from a strictly literal reading of this in John 6, and cited many other verses which everyone, or most people at least, agreed were in fact symbolic.
Calvin took over the Reformed school after Zvingli, Calvin felt that Christ was present in a spiritual but not literal sense in the Eucharist. Calvin saw the presence of a miracle but that the miracle was centered on the spiritual aspect of the Lord’s Supper and not on its physicality. Calvin said Luther’s view of the ubiquity of Christ’s presence was a “phantasm,” and that Christ’s body remains in Heaven. He considered the transsubstantiation doctrine to be a work of Satan.

And it is from these origins that so many of today’s arguments derive, indeed today’s debaters often just repeat both the ideas and the invective style of language (at least when it comes to Luther and Calvin).

But, it is interesting, thanks for raising the topic!
I am always open to better ideas, too.... so jump right in if you like.
All the best,
fhc


39 posted on 03/31/2014 9:07:26 PM PDT by faithhopecharity ((Brilliant, Profound Tag Line Goes Here, just as soon as I can think of one..))
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To: faucetman

Catholics were the first Christians. It’s in the Bible!


40 posted on 03/31/2014 9:09:42 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: JPX2011
Protestant Pedoporn

Protestant Pedos go to prison, they don't just shuffle the deck like the Catholics do.

41 posted on 03/31/2014 9:11:20 PM PDT by xone
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To: xone

Thanks for making my point Xone.


42 posted on 03/31/2014 9:12:19 PM PDT by JPX2011
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To: JPX2011

No problem.


43 posted on 03/31/2014 9:13:44 PM PDT by xone
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To: Salvation

Convert? From Christian to Christian?


44 posted on 03/31/2014 9:21:13 PM PDT by DesertRhino (I was standing with a rifle, waiting for soviet paratroopers, but communists just ran for office.)
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To: JPX2011; boatbums
I’ll remember your intentionally provoke comment the next time certain members of the FR protestant contingent decides to post Protestant Pedoporn. Which is done purely for news consumption I’m sure.

Now there's a new argument that I've not heard before. (Some) Catholic priests sexually assaulted male children and minors in order to sexually stimulate Protestants.

And all done in a spirit of ecumenism, I'm sure.

45 posted on 03/31/2014 9:22:31 PM PDT by Alex Murphy ("the defacto Leader of the FR Calvinist Protestant Brigades")
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To: faucetman
OK, the Bible came from the Catholics, correct? So the Catholics were the first ones called Christians.

Acts, chapter 11

 

26and when he had found him he brought him to Antioch. For a whole year they met with the church and taught a large number of people, and it was in Antioch that the disciples were first called Christians.*

You do believe the Bible, correct?

46 posted on 03/31/2014 9:22:59 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: DesertRhino

All the time. If I had my list of converts from other denominations to Catholicism ridded of all the duplicates I would post them to you.

Believe me, there are a lot!


47 posted on 03/31/2014 9:28:05 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Aliska

...eternally, eternity, Ethiopian, eunuch, eunuchs, eutychus, evangelist...

No Eucharist. Should be right in the middle of that list...


48 posted on 03/31/2014 9:29:37 PM PDT by Blue Collar Christian (Vote Democrat. Once you're OK with killing babies the rest is easy. <BCC><)
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To: boatbums
I missed the original post.
Thank you for linking to it. I perused a few of the replies.

While not a follower of either religious sect, I do have two favorite Christian groups: Catholics and Baptists.

Of course both are equally “wrong”, but God will sort us all out eventually.

Myself, I thank the Catholics for their help in fighting against spiritual evil, and I also thank the Baptists for their help in the fight against physically evil human acts.

I have found great comfort, when I needed it most, amidst both denominations.

49 posted on 03/31/2014 9:30:12 PM PDT by sarasmom (Extortion 17. A large number of Navy SEALs died on that mission. Ask why.)
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To: Salvation
Catholics were the first Christians. It’s in the Bible!

Imagine the Disciples' surprise.

50 posted on 03/31/2014 9:32:32 PM PDT by Colonel_Flagg (Some people meet their heroes. I raised mine. Go Army.)
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