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Is Russia Mentioned in Ezekiel?
March 5, 2014 | PhilipFreneau

Posted on 04/05/2014 11:10:17 AM PDT by PhilipFreneau

Is Russia Mentioned in Ezekiel?

A careful and literal reading of Ezekiel 38 and 39 reveal that modern-day interpretations that allude to Russia are misleading, at best. Oddly, most of those interpretations seem to come from those who claim to be "literalists.

As an example of the kind of misleading statements Christians have to contend with is this statement by Jennifer Rast in an article listed on the Contender Ministries website

"As we read the headlines in the newspapers of today, and witness the conflict in the Middle East, it's not hard to imagine that this invasion prophesied over 2600 years ago, could be fulfilled in our lifetime."

The key word is "imagine." What Jennifer didn't say is that it is easy to imagine the scriptures to mean anything, but generally difficult to prove.

Ms. Rast goes on to list some of the modern-day theories. This is #4:

"4. Russian Theory: The Hebrew word 'rosh' in verse 3 is identified with Russia, 'Tubal' with Tiblisi or Tobolsk and 'Meshech' with Moscow, therefore Gog and Magog refers to Russia. This is one of the most commonly held views and is based on a different interpretation of the Hebrew word Rosh (used as a noun rather than adjective), similarities in the pronunciation of words, and the Greek translation of Rosh referring to a tribe of people found in what is now Russia."

Let's examine the word "rosh'" in the Old Testament. Strong's Concordance lists the word as:

{7218} ro'sh, roshe; from an unused root apparently meaning to shake; the head (as most easily shaken), whether literal or figurative (in many applications, of place, time, rank, itc.): — band, beginning, captain, chapiter, chief(-est place, man, things), company, end, X every (man), excellent, first, forefront, ((be-)) head, height, (on) high(-est part, (priest)), X lead, X poor, principal, ruler, sum, top.

From all appearances, the correct translation for rosh would be: the chief, head, ruler, or similar adjective. For direct usage, the Septuagint provides the following:

"And the word of the Lord came to me, saying, Son of man, set thy face against Gog, and the land of Magog, Rhos, prince of Mesoch and Thobel, and prophesy against him, and say to him, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against thee, Rhos prince of Mesoch and Thobel:" (Eze 38:1-3 SEP)

In that translation the word "rosh" (Rhos) is used ambiguously the first time; but is used as, what appears to be, an adjective in the second part. Now compare with the King James Version:

"And the word of the Lord came unto me, saying, Son of man, set thy face against Gog, the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him, And say, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:" (Eze 38:1-3 KJV)

Therefore, it is safe to conclude that the Hebrew word "ro'sh" means "the chief" in this instance; Gog would be the chief prince of Magog; and the King James Version is translated correctly.

The Strong number 7218 for the Hebrew word "rosh" is used over 500 times in the Old Testament, and the usage in the verses I examined was to define a "leader" (e.g., the chief baker;) as one's actual head (e.g., upon my head;) or as the highest point (as in, the top of a mountain.)


Rast said common interpretations of Meshech and Tubal are Moscow and Tiblisi (or Tobolsk) respectively. Let's examine an earlier Ezekiel reference to those two cities:

"And say unto Tyrus, O thou that art situate at the entry of the sea, which art a merchant of the people for many isles, Thus saith the Lord God; O Tyrus, thou hast said, I am of perfect beauty … Tarshish was thy merchant by reason of the multitude of all kind of riches; with silver, iron, tin, and lead, they traded in thy fairs. Javan, Tubal, and Meshech, they were thy merchants: they traded the persons of men and vessels of brass in thy market. They of the house of Togarmah traded in thy fairs with horses and horsemen and mules. " (Eze 27:3, 12-14 KJV)

Tubal and Meshech are listed as two of the many merchants of Tyre. Guess who else was listed as a merchant?

"Judah, and the land of Israel, they were thy merchants: they traded in thy market wheat of Minnith, and Pannag, and honey, and oil, and balm." (Eze 27:17 KJV)

It does not appear that Meshech and Tubal are modern-day Russian cities.

Other claimed scriptural references for a modern interpretation are these which use the word "north:"

"And I will turn thee back, and put hooks into thy jaws, and I will bring thee forth, and all thine army, horses and horsemen, all of them clothed with all sorts of armour, even a great company with bucklers and shields, all of them handling swords: Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya with them; all of them with shield and helmet: Gomer, and all his bands; the house of Togarmah of the north quarters, and all his bands: and many people with thee ... Therefore, son of man, prophesy and say unto Gog, Thus saith the Lord God; In that day when my people of Israel dwelleth safely, shalt thou not know it? And thou shalt come from thy place out of the north parts, thou, and many people with thee, all of them riding upon horses, a great company, and a mighty army:" (Eze 38:4-6, 14-15 KJV)

It should be noted that multiple invasions of Israel came from the north; for example, by Syria, Babylon, and Rome.

The land of Togarmah is mentioned in Ezekiel 27:14 as a merchant of Tyre for horses, horsemen and mules. Note also that in Ezekiel 38:4-6, the soldiers are not only riding horses; but are clothed with armour and carrying shields and swords. That sounds like an ancient army.

In verse 16 the Lord explains that He is bringing Gog against Israel:

"And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes. " (Eze 38:16 KJV)

So, who is this mysterious Gog? Adam Clarke, in his commentary, stated it was Antiochus IV, king of Syria, who invaded Israel around 168 BC and defiled the temple. Antiochus was defeated during the Maccabean Revolt which, incidentally, marked the beginning of the feast of Hanukkah.

Some key fulfilments mentioned by Clarke include:

"And I will call for a sword against him throughout all my mountains, saith the Lord God: every man's sword shall be against his brother." (Eze 38:16-18 KJV)

Clark: "Meaning Judas Maccabeus, who defeated [Antiochus'] army under Lysias, making a horrible carnage."

"So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the Lord, the Holy One in Israel." (Eze 39:7 KJV)

Clarke: "This defeat of Gog is to be in Israel: and it was there according to this prophecy, that the immense army of Antiochus was so completely defeated. Ands I will not let them pollute my holy name any more— See on 1 Macc. 1:11, etc., how Antiochus had profaned the temple, insulted Jehovah and his worship, etc. God permitted that as a scourge to his disobedient people; but now the scourger shall be scourged, and he shall pollute the sanctuary no more."

Note that Daniel 11 & 12 also prophesied of Antiochus' profanation of the temple. Read Clarke's entire commentary on Ezekiel 37-39, for more information.

Another commentary that mentions Antiochus is Matthew Henry Volume IV. Henry's comments for Ezekiel 38:5-6 include this statement:

"Antiochus had an army made up of all the nations here named, and many others."

I am of the opinion that Gog is not a modern figure, but an ancient king or ruler: most likely Antiochus IV.

Philip


TOPICS: Theology
KEYWORDS: antiochus; ezekiel; russia
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1 posted on 04/05/2014 11:10:17 AM PDT by PhilipFreneau
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To: PhilipFreneau

Not the word Russia, if that’s what you mean.


2 posted on 04/05/2014 11:26:34 AM PDT by BeadCounter (morning glory evening grace)
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To: BeadCounter

>>>Not the word Russia, if that’s what you mean.<<<

No. That is not what I mean. What I mean is: nothing in the scripture that has anything to do with Russia.


3 posted on 04/05/2014 11:30:20 AM PDT by PhilipFreneau
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To: PhilipFreneau

The comming four blood moons as well as an eclipse in 2014 and 2015 may shed light on why theologians elude to Russia.
Very interesting. (3 sermons in 1)

FOUR BLOOD MOONS
(Passover) 4/15/2014, (Sukkot) 10/8/2014 Nison 1 ( 3/20/2015 (Passover) 4/04/2015 (Sukkot) 9/28/2014

The Coming Four Blood Moons (3 sermons in one)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VK8NKXDinlE


4 posted on 04/05/2014 11:34:28 AM PDT by stars & stripes forever (Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord.)
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To: stars & stripes forever

>>>The Coming Four Blood Moons (3 sermons in one)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VK8NKXDinlE<<<

John Hagee? No thanks.

Philip


5 posted on 04/05/2014 11:47:17 AM PDT by PhilipFreneau
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To: PhilipFreneau

I agree that Rosh is a title, not a name for Russia. That said, I don’t think Eze 38 was fulfilled with the Maccabean Revolt. Eze 38 follows Eze 37, the rebirth of the State of Israel which took place in 1948. In fact, it is not time for Eze 38 yet, since God promised in Eze 39:28 that no Jew would be left behind. Another reason I don’t think the Maccabean Revolt was Eze 38 is that Israel was not “a land of unwalled villages; [...]a peaceful people, who dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates” (Eze 38:11). When do I think Eze 38 will take place? Well, not before Israel lives at peace, which makes me think that another war with Israel’s neighbors have to take place first. Psalm 83? Isa 17?


6 posted on 04/05/2014 12:11:18 PM PDT by Former Fetus (Saved by grace through faith)
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To: PhilipFreneau
In the Septuagint translation of 38.1, the name "Mesoch" could be "Mosoch" (both forms are found in the manuscripts--the Alfred Rahlfs edition prints Mosoch in the text and mentions the variant reading in the notes).

The word applied to Rhos, arkhonta, is a general word for "ruler" or "commander." It is the participle form of the verb arkho maning "to be first," "to lead the way,' "to begin," "to rule, be leader of."

7 posted on 04/05/2014 12:23:44 PM PDT by Verginius Rufus
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To: PhilipFreneau
No. That is not what I mean. What I mean is: nothing in the scripture that has anything to do with Russia.

Then, Brother, I ask you to again look at verse 15 in the 38th chapter: 15 You will come from your place out of the remote parts of the north, you and many peoples with you, all of them riding on horses, a great assembly and a mighty army;

Where would the remote part of the north be? Any further north would be in the Arctic. And unless we're talking about mighty herds and collections of sea lions and polar bears, we're kind of stuck with Russia.
8 posted on 04/05/2014 1:20:01 PM PDT by righttackle44 (Take scalps. Leave the bodies as a warning.)
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To: righttackle44

Take Google Earth & draw a line due north from the center of Jerusalem to the most northern city & see where you end up.


9 posted on 04/05/2014 1:43:32 PM PDT by jimbobfoster
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To: jimbobfoster

Turkey, the Black Sea, and then Russia.


10 posted on 04/05/2014 2:16:10 PM PDT by MuttTheHoople (Nothing is more savage and brutal than justifiably angry Americans. Don’t believe me? Ask the Germa)
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To: Former Fetus
I agree. There are too many things left unfulfilled for the Maccabean Revolt to have been what Ezekiel, Psalms and Isaiah, not to mention Daniel, Zechariah, Jeremiah and other prophecies say will happen. To presume that ALL these are only figurative or allegorical instead of some being literal, fails to answer WHAT they were all supposed to represent. Clearly, there are many yet-to-be-fulfilled prophecies. God is not yet done with the Jewish people or Israel.
11 posted on 04/05/2014 2:20:46 PM PDT by boatbums (Simul justis et peccator.)
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To: Former Fetus
Israel was not “a land of unwalled villages;

It may be that Israel will not have peace until after the tribulation, this would mean Gog and Magog would still be around at the end of the thousand years as is suggested by Revelation 20:7-8. Maybe a big time gap in Ezekiel 37-38.
12 posted on 04/05/2014 2:26:31 PM PDT by Seven_0 (You cannot fool all of the people, ever!)
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To: PhilipFreneau

The problem with the acceptance of the word of God is the translations of the writers.

The bible might be the word of God, but man translates translations. And then we translate it into English. And then we translate into modern English.

It is ridiculous.

We should read the bible for its purpose. Anyone taking the words as literal is wasting their time and kidding themselves.

Lets focus on the parts where it says to love each other, as we would be loved.

The rest is pretty much secondary.

Just my opinion. I am prepared for most everyone around here to go all fundamentalist on me.


13 posted on 04/05/2014 2:32:22 PM PDT by Vermont Lt (If you want to keep your dignity, you can keep it. Period........ Just kidding, you can't keep it.)
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To: Former Fetus
>>>Eze 38 follows Eze 37, the rebirth of the State of Israel which took place in 1948.<<<

How did you get that out of Ezekiel 37? That is quite a stretch.


>>>In fact, it is not time for Eze 38 yet, since God promised in Eze 39:28 that no Jew would be left behind.>>>

This is the context:

"After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid. When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations; Then shall they know that I am the Lord their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there." (Eze 39:26-28 KJV)

What are the names of the enemy lands where Jews are held captive today? New York City? LOL!

The Lord sent Antiochus (Gog) against Israel (Eze 38:16) because they had become complacent after more than 300 years of peace: peace that began during the reign of Darius. Antiochus had taken captives (Dan 11:33,) and in this prophecy the Lord promised they would all be allowed to return. Regarding the captives, Josephus said:

"And when he had pillaged the whole city, some of the inhabitants he slew, and some he carried captive, together with their wives and children, so that the multitude of those captives that were taken alive amounted to about ten thousand." [Antiquities XII.5.4]

Recall that under Cyrus all were allowed to return, but many chose not to. I assume the same here. When the Lord says "he left none any more there," I would be hesitant to take that as if he dragged them back into Israel. Rather, I see it as simply releasing them from captivity.

Of course, if you insist on taking that literally, and you have exhausted all Hebrew and Greek translations and have assumed there is no ambiguity; then should you not also take 39:9-13 literally?

For example, imagine the size of the army where Israel would need no firewood for seven years, but the wood of the army's shields, bucklers, spears, handstaves, and bows and arrows (Eze 39:9-12.) Can you think of any army today that carries any kind of wood? Even rifle stocks are plastic these days. And does Israel even use firewood these days?

Now imagine the number of corpses from Gog's army that are scattered about that would require all the people of Israel (millions of Israeli's) a total of 7 months to bury (Eze 39:11-15.)

Either it is all literal, or it is all figurative. You can't have it both ways.


>>>Another reason I don’t think the Maccabean Revolt was Eze 38 is that Israel was not “a land of unwalled villages; [...]a peaceful people, who dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates” (Eze 38:11). <<<

I recall the walls of Jerusalem were rebuilt during Ezra, but I don't recall the villages having walls. Do you have scriptural references for that?


>>>When do I think Eze 38 will take place? Well, not before Israel lives at peace, which makes me think that another war with Israel’s neighbors have to take place first. Psalm 83? Isa 17?<<<

I understand there was a great period of peace for Israel, beginning in the reign of Darius, that lasted over 300 years, even during the reign of Alexander. That peace ended upon the invasion of Antiochus IV.

Philip

14 posted on 04/05/2014 2:43:49 PM PDT by PhilipFreneau
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To: Vermont Lt
The rest is pretty much secondary.

Do you have a method to decide which parts are primary and which parts are secondary?
15 posted on 04/05/2014 2:48:32 PM PDT by Seven_0 (You cannot fool all of the people, ever!)
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To: Verginius Rufus

Thanks. I notice both variations you listed are used in my translation, which is Brenton, 1851.

Philip


16 posted on 04/05/2014 2:52:27 PM PDT by PhilipFreneau
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To: boatbums

Invaders from the north?

Possibilities include Hittites (empire long destroyed before David), Macedonians (considered rough country cousins at best by the Athenians and other southern Greeks), several empires governed from Damascus, I will also add groups like the Huns and Mongols who would have approached by crossing the Caucus region.


17 posted on 04/05/2014 2:53:53 PM PDT by Fraxinus (My opinion, worth what you paid.)
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Comment #18 Removed by Moderator

To: righttackle44
>>>Then, Brother, I ask you to again look at verse 15 in the 38th chapter: 15 You will come from your place out of the remote parts of the north, you and many peoples with you, all of them riding on horses, a great assembly and a mighty army;<<<

>>>Where would the remote part of the north be? Any further north would be in the Arctic. And unless we're talking about mighty herds and collections of sea lions and polar bears, we're kind of stuck with Russia.<<<

It all boils down to what the "remote parts of the north" really means. The King James Version translates it as "out of the north parts," which is not the same as your New American Standard. One thing should be clear: it was mostly like not too far away since they were all riding on horses:

"Therefore, son of man, prophesy and say unto Gog, Thus saith the Lord God; In that day when my people of Israel dwelleth safely, shalt thou not know it? And thou shalt come from thy place out of the north parts, thou, and many people with thee, all of them riding upon horses, a great company, and a mighty army:" (Eze 38:14-15 KJV)

Philip

19 posted on 04/05/2014 3:22:18 PM PDT by PhilipFreneau
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To: Vermont Lt

bttt


20 posted on 04/05/2014 3:42:44 PM PDT by ConservativeMan55 (In America, we don't do pin pricks. But sometimes we elect them.)
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To: boatbums; Former Fetus
>>>Clearly, there are many yet-to-be-fulfilled prophecies. <<<

I would agree there are many unexplained/uninterpreted old testament prophecies. But Jesus himself made it unclear that there are any "yet-to-be-fulfilled" prophecies:

"And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled." (Luke 21:20-22 KJV)


>>>God is not yet done with the Jewish people or Israel.<<<

Paul didn't think so:

"For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:" (Rom 9:3 KJV)


The apostles went way out of their way trying to beat it into our thick skulls that God is no respecter of persons:

"God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;" (Acts 17:24-26 KJV)

"Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:" (Acts 10:34 KJV)

"For there is no respect of persons with God." (Rom 2:11 KJV)

"And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him." (Eph 6:9 KJV)

"But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons." (Col 3:25 KJV)

"My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons." (Jam 2:1 KJV)

"But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors." (Jam 2:9 KJV)

"And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:" (1 Pet 1:17 KJV)

"For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him." (Rom 10:12 KJV)

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." (Gal 3:28-29 KJV)

"That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ." (Eph 2:12-13 KJV)

"Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all." (Col 3:11 KJV)

There are more . . .

Philip

21 posted on 04/05/2014 3:48:58 PM PDT by PhilipFreneau
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To: Vermont Lt
>>>Lets focus on the parts where it says to love each other, as we would be loved.<<<

That is the Law!

"Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets." (Mat 7:12 KJV)

"Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law." (Rom 13:10 KJV)

"For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." (Gal 5:14 KJV)

"If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors." (Jam 2:8-9 KJV)

And it fulfills the Commandments:

"This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you." (John 15:12 KJV)

"Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God." (1 Jn 4:7 KJV)

And it was known from old:

"Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the Lord." (Lev 19:18 KJV)

Philip

22 posted on 04/05/2014 3:56:00 PM PDT by PhilipFreneau
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To: PhilipFreneau

Interestingly, the campaign of Gog and Magog is held by modern Orthodox Jews to be a future event. If it had in reality been fulfilled in the second century one would think that such a view would be recognized by the Jewish rabbis from that time until our present. Instead, the details of this battle have not yet been fulfilled in the past but await a future fulfillment.


23 posted on 04/05/2014 4:03:38 PM PDT by wolfman
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To: Vermont Lt
Yes. The parts, such as the ones discussed in this thread, which are under examination are stupid.

Are you saying that some parts of Ezekiel are stupid?
24 posted on 04/05/2014 4:05:45 PM PDT by Seven_0 (You cannot fool all of the people, ever!)
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To: Former Fetus

The army that fights against Israel:

“Their flesh shall dissolve while they stand on their feet,
Their eyes shall dissolve in their sockets,
And their tongues shall dissolve in their mouths.”

Sounds like a microwave pulse from a nuke. The eyeballs and tongue would burst into flames in the skull because of their relatively high water content.


25 posted on 04/05/2014 4:07:12 PM PDT by equalator
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To: Seven_0

>>>It may be that Israel will not have peace until after the tribulation...<<<

As mentioned in another reply, it appears (mostly from historical silence) that Israel had peace from the days of Darius until the invasion of Antiochus IV, a period of over 300 years.

Philip


26 posted on 04/05/2014 4:17:15 PM PDT by PhilipFreneau
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To: wolfman

>>>Interestingly, the campaign of Gog and Magog is held by modern Orthodox Jews to be a future event. If it had in reality been fulfilled in the second century one would think that such a view would be recognized by the Jewish rabbis from that time until our present. Instead, the details of this battle have not yet been fulfilled in the past but await a future fulfillment.<<<

They have been wrong about many things: in general their obsession with the antichristian religion of Judaism, and in particular their insistence on a literal interpretation of figurative prophecy.

Philip


27 posted on 04/05/2014 4:26:58 PM PDT by PhilipFreneau
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To: PhilipFreneau
As mentioned in another reply, it appears (mostly from historical silence) that Israel had peace from the days of Darius until the invasion of Antiochus IV, a period of over 300 years.

How does that relate to the Gog and Magog of Revelation 20.
28 posted on 04/05/2014 4:28:32 PM PDT by Seven_0 (You cannot fool all of the people, ever!)
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To: Seven_0

I am saying the way you guys are trying to pick apart a text that has been translated at least four times before it got to a form you can understand is stupid.

What understanding does it matter whether Russia is in the text. What good is that going to do anyone? Are you going to change your behavior one little bit based on your “understanding?”

The bible is full of wisdom. It is full of history. It is a wonderfully blessed collection of books.

But this navel gazing will get you nowhere. If you are in Isreal, there is a pretty good chance you will be nuked. Does it much matter who is nuking you?

The time and discussion on this would be better spent playing with your kids, raking the lawn, loving your wife, or washing your car.

Live the life within the precepts of the bible. You will be fine.

I am not suggesting that reading and understanding the bible is not a valid use of time. I AM suggesting that spending time trying to plug in 2014 to 3000 year old prophecies IS a waste of time.


29 posted on 04/05/2014 4:55:05 PM PDT by Vermont Lt (If you want to keep your dignity, you can keep it. Period........ Just kidding, you can't keep it.)
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To: PhilipFreneau

So what difference does picking apart Ezekiel make?

What will you walk away understanding. If His hand is moving things, you don’t have to worry. If YOU are living your life understanding Jesus’ law...you could spend your time more productively.

That’s all I was saying.


30 posted on 04/05/2014 4:58:34 PM PDT by Vermont Lt (If you want to keep your dignity, you can keep it. Period........ Just kidding, you can't keep it.)
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To: Vermont Lt
>>>I am saying the way you guys are trying to pick apart a text that has been translated at least four times before it got to a form you can understand is stupid.<<<

We have the Hebrew from Strong's, and we have the Septuagint. Of course, we also have The Preacher:

"The words of the wise are as goads, and as nails fastened by the masters of assemblies, which are given from one shepherd. And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh. Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man." (Ecc 12:11-13 KJV)

>>>But this navel gazing will get you nowhere. If you are in Isreal, there is a pretty good chance you will be nuked. Does it much matter who is nuking you?<<<

All is vanity.

>>>The time and discussion on this would be better spent playing with your kids, raking the lawn, loving your wife, or washing your car.<<<

If you are so busy, why are you here?

>>>I am not suggesting that reading and understanding the bible is not a valid use of time.<<<

LOL! You really had me fooled! LOL!

>>> I AM suggesting that spending time trying to plug in 2014 to 3000 year old prophecies IS a waste of time.<<<

Join the club of those who have time to waste.

Philip

31 posted on 04/05/2014 5:07:32 PM PDT by PhilipFreneau
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To: PhilipFreneau
Eze 37, the rebirth of the State of Israel which took place in 1948.
How did you get that out of Ezekiel 37? That is quite a stretch.

Most rabbis and Christian commentators see the Valley of Dry Bones as the Holocaust, and the bones coming together, forming bodies and becoming alive, the rebirth of the State of Israel.

What are the names of the enemy lands where Jews are held captive today? New York City? LOL!

The Jews are not held captive today, but they were taken captive from Israel and can be found today all over the world. I think part of Eze 39:28 is that all Jews will return to Israel. Look at the Aliyah numbers from Europe, the US... it is happening!

more than 300 years of peace: peace that began during the reign of Darius

Like you wrote to another poster, this "peace" is based on historical silence. Lack of evidence is not evidence of something not happening.

I don't recall the villages having walls.

Archeology shows that at that time all villages were walled or did not exist for long!

32 posted on 04/05/2014 5:11:24 PM PDT by Former Fetus (Saved by grace through faith)
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To: Seven_0
It may be that Israel will not have peace until after the tribulation

Israel will not have real peace until Jesus returns.

33 posted on 04/05/2014 5:13:09 PM PDT by Former Fetus (Saved by grace through faith)
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To: Vermont Lt

>>>So what difference does picking apart Ezekiel make?<<<

Like the Blues Brothers, we all think we are on a Mission From God!

>>>What will you walk away understanding. If His hand is moving things, you don’t have to worry. If YOU are living your life understanding Jesus’ law...you could spend your time more productively.<<<

Frankly, I enjoy studying and debating the scriptures (debating? well, most of the time.) I am too old and worn-out to do anything else -:)

Phillip


34 posted on 04/05/2014 5:13:55 PM PDT by PhilipFreneau
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To: Vermont Lt
The bible might be the word of God, but man translates translations. And then we translate it into English. And then we translate into modern English [...]Anyone taking the words as literal is wasting their time and kidding themselves.

Are you saying that the God who is mighty enough to inspire the writers of the different books in the Bible, so that they write exactly what He wants, is not mighty enough to make sure that those books are properly translated? Granted, there are some pretty bad "versions", like the Message, or the Queen James... but overall, the Word of God has been protected. If you read a word-by- word translation you won't go wrong.

35 posted on 04/05/2014 5:21:13 PM PDT by Former Fetus (Saved by grace through faith)
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To: Former Fetus
>>>Most rabbis and Christian commentators see the Valley of Dry Bones as the Holocaust, and the bones coming together, forming bodies and becoming alive, the rebirth of the State of Israel.<<<

I don't care what a rabbi thinks; but can you list those Christian commentators?

>>>The Jews are not held captive today, but they were taken captive from Israel and can be found today all over the world. I think part of Eze 39:28 is that all Jews will return to Israel. Look at the Aliyah numbers from Europe, the US... it is happening! <<<

What happens to those who decide not to return? Are they dragged kicking and screaming to Israel to fulfill the prophecy? How does that work?

>>>Like you wrote to another poster, this "peace" is based on historical silence. Lack of evidence is not evidence of something not happening.<<<

If there was a war during that period, Josephus would have written about it.

>>>Archeology shows that at that time all villages were walled or did not exist for long!<<<

Throughout all Israel? Do you have any scripture to support your opinion? Also, archeology is not an exact science.

Philip

36 posted on 04/05/2014 5:27:16 PM PDT by PhilipFreneau
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To: Seven_0

>>>How does that relate to the Gog and Magog of Revelation 20.<<<

It doesn’t. Nothing in Ezekiel relates to Revelation 20.

Philip


37 posted on 04/05/2014 5:29:38 PM PDT by PhilipFreneau
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To: Former Fetus

Yes..that is exactly what I am saying.


38 posted on 04/05/2014 5:35:28 PM PDT by Vermont Lt (If you want to keep your dignity, you can keep it. Period........ Just kidding, you can't keep it.)
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To: PhilipFreneau

If you are so busy..why are you here?

In all honesty..and not to be crude, I read FR when I am sitting on the can. Or when my wife is watching “her show”, which I find more tedious than poking folks on the thread!

All in fun. No offense intended.


39 posted on 04/05/2014 5:37:58 PM PDT by Vermont Lt (If you want to keep your dignity, you can keep it. Period........ Just kidding, you can't keep it.)
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To: Vermont Lt

>>>In all honesty..and not to be crude, I read FR when I am sitting on the can.<<<

Wow! Do you ever have it made! A John with a computer station! That sure beats the Sears Roebuck catalog.

Philip


40 posted on 04/05/2014 6:04:23 PM PDT by PhilipFreneau
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To: PhilipFreneau
can you list those Christian commentators?

I've just moved and my books are still packed in boxes, but I believe the first time I read about it was in a commentary by Jimmy Swagart.

What happens to those who decide not to return?

I don't know. But my lack of understanding in no way invalidates the prophecy.

Josephus would have written about it

Maybe... I'm just thinking that minor skirmishes may not make it into Josephus's writings, but the conditions would not have been peaceful.

Do you have any scripture to support your opinion? Also, archaeology is not an exact science.No, I don't. And there is a lot of "constructive deduction" in archaeology, but the remnant of walls are hard to miss.

41 posted on 04/05/2014 7:01:32 PM PDT by Former Fetus (Saved by grace through faith)
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To: PhilipFreneau
I understand there was a great period of peace for Israel, beginning in the reign of Darius, that lasted over 300 years, even during the reign of Alexander. That peace ended upon the invasion of Antiochus IV.

So if everything has already taken place, all prophecy fulfilled, we must be living in heaven...I gotta say I am sorely disappointed...And you don't want to listen to John Hagee???

42 posted on 04/05/2014 7:04:03 PM PDT by Iscool (Ya mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailer park...)
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To: PhilipFreneau

Is Ezekiel mentioned in Russia?


43 posted on 04/05/2014 7:05:52 PM PDT by Larry Lucido
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To: PhilipFreneau
"Therefore, son of man, prophesy and say unto Gog, Thus saith the Lord God; In that day when my people of Israel dwelleth safely, shalt thou not know it? And thou shalt come from thy place out of the north parts, thou, and many people with thee, all of them riding upon horses, a great company, and a mighty army:" (Eze 38:14-15 KJV)

It is not out of the realm of speculation and likelihood that while the verse is literal that a word or two can be symbolic...In this case it's possible the term horse can just be a form of transportation...Or, it really could be factual...

44 posted on 04/05/2014 7:16:23 PM PDT by Iscool (Ya mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailer park...)
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To: PhilipFreneau
But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ." (Eph 2:12-13 KJV)

You even had it bolded out...With whoever is in Christ Jesus there is no respect of persons...Outside of Jesus Christ there definitely is respect of persons...

Did Jesus eliminate the Master/servant relationship??? Nope...Did Jesus eliminate the distinction between the Jews and the Ethiopians??? Nope...Did Jesus eliminate the distinction between dogs and horses and just call them all animals??? Nope...

It is only in Christ where there is no distinction between bond and free, Black and White, Jew and Gentile, circumcision and uncircumcision...

I don't know how you can miss that...Even if you aren't a born again Christian that much is very clear in the Scriptures...

45 posted on 04/05/2014 7:27:52 PM PDT by Iscool (Ya mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailer park...)
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To: PhilipFreneau
As mentioned in another reply, it appears (mostly from historical silence) that Israel had peace from the days of Darius until the invasion of Antiochus IV, a period of over 300 years.

That wasn't it...That's not nearly long enough...

Amo 9:14 And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them.
Amo 9:15 And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the LORD thy God.

When peace comes to Israel, and it will, it will be for a long, long time...

46 posted on 04/05/2014 7:58:07 PM PDT by Iscool (Ya mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailer park...)
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To: Iscool
>>>So if everything has already taken place, all prophecy fulfilled, we must be living in heaven...I gotta say I am sorely disappointed...<<<

Things should get much better when the nations are no longer deceived by Satan:

"In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations." (Rev 22:2 KJV)

>>>And you don't want to listen to John Hagee???<<<

No, but I do try to warn people about him. You don't believe that charlatan, do you?

Philip

47 posted on 04/05/2014 8:17:52 PM PDT by PhilipFreneau
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To: Former Fetus
>>>I've just moved and my books are still packed in boxes, but I believe the first time I read about it was in a commentary by Jimmy Swagart.<<<

I was asking a serious question about those commentators.

>>>I don't know. But my lack of understanding in no way invalidates the prophecy.<<<

All prophecy is valid. Nearly all is misinterpreted. Recall what Jesus said to his disciples about the things he revealed to them, and you will understand how few people understood prophecy when Jesus began his ministry. Things are no different today.

>>>Maybe... I'm just thinking that minor skirmishes may not make it into Josephus's writings, but the conditions would not have been peaceful.<<<

He was not the only historian. Do you know of any historian who said times were not peaceful during that period?

>>>>>>>And there is a lot of "constructive deduction" in archaeology, but the remnant of walls are hard to miss.<<<

Those would have to be very large walls to repel an invasion; and generally there were multiple walls that were filled in with dirt to resist battering rams and catapulted stones. That costs money, and lots of it. What city in Israel could afford such walls after the return from Babylon, except Jerusalem?

Philip

48 posted on 04/05/2014 8:56:49 PM PDT by PhilipFreneau
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To: Larry Lucido

>>>Is Ezekiel mentioned in Russia?<<<

Probably on a regular basis. It is a Christian nation.

Philip


49 posted on 04/05/2014 8:58:06 PM PDT by PhilipFreneau
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To: Iscool
>>>It is not out of the realm of speculation and likelihood that while the verse is literal that a word or two can be symbolic...In this case it's possible the term horse can just be a form of transportation...Or, it really could be factual...<<<

One of the northern countries allied against Jerusalem was a horse and mule merchant for Tyre, which was a city on the coast of, what is today, southern Lebanon:

"Tarshish was thy merchant by reason of the multitude of all kind of riches; with silver, iron, tin, and lead, they traded in thy fairs. Javan, Tubal, and Meshech, they were thy merchants: they traded the persons of men and vessels of brass in thy market. They of the house of Togarmah traded in thy fairs with horses and horsemen and mules." (Eze 27:12-14 KJV)

Judah and Israel were also merchants for Tyre.

Philip

50 posted on 04/05/2014 9:13:09 PM PDT by PhilipFreneau
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