Posted on 04/08/2014 4:11:07 PM PDT by markomalley
“True. You have a good understanding of Catholic doctrine. “
And yet, I never hear them teach their members that every Christian is a saint.
You should come around more.
May I invite you to join my RCIA class?
One would be, all those who belong to Jesus Christ. All His Church are saints. You and me too I hope.
Another would be, the saints gone on to heaven.
A third would be, he latter whose lives have been examined and have been recognized as people of heroic virtue, recommended as examples to the whole Christian community, i.e. canonized.
We are not all going to be canonized, but there are many, many more Christians in heaven than the canonized. Canonization does not change their status in heaven, where he last will be first, and the first last.
Scripture uses saint in just one way - applied to every single person who has entrusted themselves to Christ for salvation, based on His sacrifice alone to pay for our sins.
Only God knows His own. No church can state who is a saint with 100% accuracy. Nor are miracles ever required by God. This process perverts God’s clear Word and confuses Christians on earth.
“You should come around more.”
Thanks for the invite, but I have a local Ekklesia for corporate worship, teaching, fellowship and celebrating the Lord’s Supper. We teach God’s declaration of who He considers a saint. None of the added stuff.
No, really. Paul refers to saints who are on this earth; he also refers to believers who are "called to be saints," --- aspiring to be saints, evidently in the future sense, saints in heaven; since if there is only one sense of the word "saint," then these believers care not merely "called to be" saints.
Paul also writes of the saints in heaven: (1 Thessalonians 3:13) - " And may he so strengthen your hearts in holiness that you may be blameless before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all his saints." Here Jesus is coming from Heaven, accompanied by the saints who were with Him in heaven.
Jpn often refers o the saints in heaven, in Revelation 5:8-9, and in Rev. 8:3-4, Rev. 18:24 and Rev. 19:8. In fact, where John in his heavenly vision sees the angels of God offering God incense which represents the prayers of the saints (Rev. 8) the angels are interceding for saints, either ones on earth or ones in heaven. This shows that the citizens of heaven intercede for us.
I am very grateful for the intercessory prayers of angels and saints.
You don’t believe in miracles?
“You don’t believe in miracles?”
Oh, dear Mrs. O, of course I believe in miracles! We see them every week of the year.
It is truly amazing to watch and be a part of God’s miracle of raising the dead!
Tattooed, pierced, lost, dead people come to our church, learn of God’s great love for them and Christ’s sacrifice for their sins. As the Holy Spirit speaks to their hearts, He draws them to Himself. They miraculously entrust themselves to Him for salvation and become saints. They follow Him in baptism that the world may know that they are His and they’ve chosen to follow him.
This is the greatest miracle happening in this age. Death to Life. Lazarus, but raised to eternal life.
They were dead in their sins. Now they are forgiven and made alive in Him.
They were lost. He finds them.
They were sinners. Now they are saints.
They were part of the kingdom of darkness. Now they have been translated to the kingdom of light.
They were alone. Now they are His forever.
They were estranged from God. Now they are told to approach His throne with boldness.
They were headed to hell. Now they are headed to Heaven.
They were not loved or valued. He loves them unconditionally and to the utmost.
Their past was bigger than their future. Now their future is bigger than their past.
They are sealed unto Him for the Day of Redemption by the Holy Spirit.
They are baptized into the Body of Christ.
They are uniquely gifted by the Holy Spirit.
They are born from above.
They became dead to the Law through Christ.
They became children of God - adopted into a position of heirs.
They are indwelt by the Holy Spirit.
They have a future and a hope.
They become the temple of the Living God.
They were crucified with Christ.
Their sins were forgiven.
Christ now lives inside them.
They have eternal life.
They were made sanctified.
They were made the righteousness of God through Christ.
They are blessed with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ.
Do we believe in miracles? Oh, yeah. We see them weekly in real lives changed by Christ. It is amazing. The church can’t hold any more people, but they continue to come and we continue to open new churches to reach more.
So exciting. We baptized quarterly. Last time there were 109 who followed Him in baptism, from 10 years old to 79 years old.
“God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. (2 Corinthians 5:21)
Dear FRiend,
You wrote...
“Paul refers to saints who are on this earth;”
“he also refers to believers who are “called to be saints,” -— aspiring to be saints, evidently in the future sense,”
No friend, they were called by God. It is not their aspiration. No one becomes a saint by aspiring to do so or working for it. God’s calling is sure.
“Paul also writes of the saints in heaven: (1 Thessalonians 3:13) - “ And may he so strengthen your hearts in holiness that you may be blameless before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all his saints.” Here Jesus is coming from Heaven, accompanied by the saints who were with Him in heaven.”
We agree. Wherever Christians are - heaven or earth, God calls them saints.
“the angels are interceding for saints, either ones on earth or ones in heaven. This shows that the citizens of heaven intercede for us.”
No, dear friend, the angels present the prayers. Nowhere does Scripture say those prayers went to the angels or saints. Nowhere do they pray in Scripture. Nowhere in Scripture do saints intercede for us.
best to you
What I wanted to comment upon was that,since about the 10th century, the process for canonization required 2 authenticated miracles which were obtained through the saint's intercession. The miracles are God's signal that this person really is in heaven interceding for us.
I've noticed among my non-Catholic Christian friends and family, the instant canonization of their beloved departed: that is to say, they are quite publicly proclaimed to be in heaven. It routinely appears in the obituaries, and always in the eulogies.
I see nothing offensive in this, but it contrasts with your statement that nobody on earth can know if anybody is in heaven. Common Protestant practice is to assume that everybody is in heaven.
And that same assumption seems to be creeping into Catholic practice, too.Pope John Paul II, in his eagerness to provide us with a lot of holy role-models by canonizing a lot of people, began dispensing with the "miracles" requirement back in the 90's.
But I think that was unwise. The Catholic Church should, I think, return to the traditional strictness over miracles as validating a person's arrival in heaven. Because how could we know that, unless God gave us a sign? Let God make the call. It's His job!
“But I think that was unwise. The Catholic Church should, I think, return to the traditional strictness over miracles as validating a person’s arrival in heaven. Because how could we know that, unless God gave us a sign? Let God make the call. It’s His job! “
I have to disagree here. No one can even know if the so-called miracle was attributable to that particular person. A human has to decide, yup! it was them.
There are serious problems with this.
First, they aren’t real miracles the person did. Peter’s shadow fell on people and they were healed. Everyone saw it. It is recorded in inspired Scripture.
Contrast that to an ignorant person who prays to a departed pope:
1. Scripture never indicates Christians are ever to pray to a person or angel
2. Scripture never indicates a departed person can hear them
3. Scripture never indicates the ignorant prayer’s prayer ever got to God
4. There is no way to confirm the departed person even went to heaven
5. There is no human way to confirm the departed person had a role at all in the so-called miracle.
6. In the end, you have a human opinion that is influenced by their desire to categorically state a departed person was indeed a saint.
Now, on to your earlier point.
Virtually everyone, regardless of denomination, assumes their departed friend or family member has gone to heaven (”a better place”). It is a shame, but they do it because it is comforting. The opposite thought is unthinkable to them.
However, the requirement to have eternal life in God’s presence is to entrust ourselves to Him for salvation, based entirely on His sacrifice and not our own efforts or merit. If we do this, surely His new life will manifest itself in a changed life marked by good works.
We are right to take God at His Word in this instance.
Kindest regards to you...
Thank you. Kind regards to you, too!
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