Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

What if God wanted you to have a Pope you didn't like, and even so, do what he says [Vanity]
4/13/2014 | Charles O'Connell

Posted on 04/13/2014 7:37:12 AM PDT by CharlesOConnell

A fine young man, a father of children and a professional, approached me at church: "What do you think of that Pope John-Paul? He's no good." Others also didn't like him. I put a magnetic sign on my car, it was met with sneers: 5 pictures of the Pope immediately after being shot, in 1/6th of the space, "In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding blood." – Hebrews 12:4

Yet I also didn't like Pope John Paul II, not in himself, but because of the cult of personality around him. I love Pope John Paul, yet I dislike hearing his name appended with "The Great", as if I am expected to join in perpetual enthusiasm about his person, regardless of how well I correspond to his message and mission.

I loved Cardinal Ratzinger, but didn't notice such a rabid welcome for him as Pope Benedict XVI, so I felt freer to attend to Him, even despite controversies like the Regensburg Lecture or various public relations disasters caused by those who sought to manage him. I was happy when his resignation finally thwarted the manipulations of those who were secretly working against him.

Now I have seen enough to ignore those who get all hot and bothered by Pope Francis upsetting the apple cart, instead concentrating on the message of the man himself. If it were all peaches and cream, so that my comfort weren't afflicted by Francis' message, what use would it all be?

Jesus remarked that "foxes have dens and birds of the sky have nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to rest his head". Matthew 8:20. His followers were ready for him to expel the Romans and restore the Davidic Kingdom. Yet he told them to go out without even taking any money.

Why should we only listen and respond to messages, and messengers, that we like? What use is it, how can Christ's message transform us, if we only hear what confirms us in what we're already doing?


TOPICS: Apologetics; Current Events; Prayer; Religion & Culture
KEYWORDS: benedict; francis; johnpaul
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-100101-146 next last

1 posted on 04/13/2014 7:37:12 AM PDT by CharlesOConnell
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: CharlesOConnell

What if God doesn’t lead me to care who the Pope is?


2 posted on 04/13/2014 7:59:36 AM PDT by DManA
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: CharlesOConnell

I converted during Pope John Paul II’s reign, and felt quite simpatico with both him and Benedict XVI at the helm of the Barque of Peter. I’m having a bit more trouble relating to the new incumbent, about whom I have mixed feelings, but whom I’m trying to give the benefit of the doubt. I like some of the stuff he does and says, but I don’t like some of the loose talk, which can and obviously has been spun by liberals that want to change Church teaching. I am worried about his praise of Cardinal Kasper and about the upcoming Synod on the Family. I just hope Francis is orthodox at heart and will not allow change in Church teaching. (If you can’t rely on the Successor of Peter to defend the deposit of faith, including moral teachings, who can you trust?) On the other hand, if he really is orthodox in the end, he might perhaps be a genius if he truly is engaging in a cunning plan that gets liberals and skeptics and mushy middlers to actually engage with Christ and the Church in good faith. On most days I think he is orthodox at heart, but on dark days I sometimes wonder. Anyways, it’s in God’s hands, and Christ did promise to Peter that the Gates of Hell would not prevail against the Church, so all one can do is pray and ride the storm.


3 posted on 04/13/2014 8:04:12 AM PDT by Unam Sanctam
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: CharlesOConnell; Religion Moderator

Vanity?


4 posted on 04/13/2014 8:04:14 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: CharlesOConnell

This post is all about Charles O’Connell , not the pope.


5 posted on 04/13/2014 8:16:49 AM PDT by Rapscallion (Obama is the corruption of America - economic, criminal, judicial, political, sexual, and more)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Unam Sanctam

You cannot blame the pope for the misbehavior of leftists.


6 posted on 04/13/2014 8:38:23 AM PDT by Pikachu_Dad (Impeach Sen Quinn)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: Salvation

What did the Preacher say?

7 posted on 04/13/2014 8:40:34 AM PDT by BlueDragon (You can observe a lot just by watching. Yogi Berra)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: Unam Sanctam

You cannot blame the pope for the misbehavior of leftists.


8 posted on 04/13/2014 8:42:04 AM PDT by Pikachu_Dad (Impeach Sen Quinn)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: CharlesOConnell

What is a “Pope”?


9 posted on 04/13/2014 8:43:24 AM PDT by Dallas59 ("Remember me as you pass by, As you are now, so once was I, As I am now, so you will be," -Epitap)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: CharlesOConnell
Why should we only listen and respond to messages, and messengers, that we like? What use is it, how can Christ's message transform us, if we only hear what confirms us in what we're already doing?

Good question.

10 posted on 04/13/2014 8:51:08 AM PDT by Alex Murphy ("the defacto Leader of the FR Calvinist Protestant Brigades")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Dallas59

A Holy Papa.


11 posted on 04/13/2014 8:53:25 AM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (Christus vincit + Christus regnat + Christus imperat)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: Rapscallion; CharlesOConnell

oO-kay Rapscallion. Now that is has been established what "this post" was all about (I prefer to use the terms "reply" or "comment", myself) was there some further content, or would that have been too much like making a thread all about a particular freeper here?


12 posted on 04/13/2014 8:59:40 AM PDT by BlueDragon (You can observe a lot just by watching. Yogi Berra)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: CharlesOConnell

Your personal likes and dislikes are NOT the measure of God.


13 posted on 04/13/2014 9:00:06 AM PDT by G Larry (There's the Beef!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: BlueDragon
What if God Was One Of Us

What if God Could Be Stopped By Us

14 posted on 04/13/2014 9:10:49 AM PDT by Alex Murphy ("the defacto Leader of the FR Calvinist Protestant Brigades")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: Mrs. Don-o; Dallas59
The question What is a “Pope”? was asked.

An answer supplied was

Really. ?


15 posted on 04/13/2014 9:11:11 AM PDT by BlueDragon (You can observe a lot just by watching. Yogi Berra)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: BlueDragon

Tagline.


16 posted on 04/13/2014 9:15:48 AM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (Christus vincit + Christus regnat + Christus imperat)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: CharlesOConnell

Popes do not issue marching orders daily, weekly, monthly, or even yearly. No person who is well-instructed in the Catholic Faith, and is sincerely practicing it, needs to follow the Pope’s doings and sayings. A Catholic is at liberty to like or dislike any Pope. If he dislikes a Pope, he should try to remain unaware of the day-to-day news about the Pope. The notion that all Catholics must “heed the call” of the Pope to conversion, or spiritual renewal or growth, etc., and must therefore read all of the Pope’s interviews and daily homilies, is silly. The call to all those good things is in Scripture and the constant teaching of the Church.


17 posted on 04/13/2014 9:20:50 AM PDT by Arthur McGowan
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Alex Murphy
I guess those lyrics are appropriate. If not, then there is no guess as to them being thought provoking. Good questions.

But that's what "we" (the world) much did, wasn't it? while many of those among the best of "us" couldn't stay awake long enough during the dark of the night, and later, when the price was to be paid, ran away and hid (ourselves).

18 posted on 04/13/2014 9:20:53 AM PDT by BlueDragon (You can observe a lot just by watching. Yogi Berra)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: Mrs. Don-o

Whatever. write it out in English, if you wish for me to be able to read it.


19 posted on 04/13/2014 9:22:06 AM PDT by BlueDragon (You can observe a lot just by watching. Yogi Berra)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies]

To: BlueDragon

Protestant anti-Catholic bigots are not only bigots, but lazy bigots.


20 posted on 04/13/2014 9:33:28 AM PDT by vladimir998
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 19 | View Replies]

To: Dallas59

What is a “Dallas59”?


21 posted on 04/13/2014 9:33:54 AM PDT by vladimir998
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: vladimir998
Perhaps you could start your own vanity thread based on the premise?

Just think, it could be a place for you to reign conquer and command -- your very own vanities!

22 posted on 04/13/2014 9:40:10 AM PDT by BlueDragon (You can observe a lot just by watching. Yogi Berra)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: BlueDragon

No, it’s much more entertaining watching you fail to translate basic Latin.


23 posted on 04/13/2014 9:45:43 AM PDT by vladimir998
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: CharlesOConnell

Maybe it is test from God to measure if you understand his teachings or are just lemmings following human religious doctrine.


24 posted on 04/13/2014 9:50:12 AM PDT by CodeToad (Arm Up! They Are!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: vladimir998
One of the forum guidelines is to communicate in understandable language...

So you could translate it yourself (and be sure to show your work) showing the whole world how bad and how limited my own understanding is.

That would prove...my Latin is very limited, beyond yourself taking the easy way out and just saying that it is...

25 posted on 04/13/2014 9:57:39 AM PDT by BlueDragon (You can observe a lot just by watching. Yogi Berra)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: CharlesOConnell

Nowhere in Scripture does God ever mention the office of “pope”.


26 posted on 04/13/2014 10:06:24 AM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: BlueDragon

“One of the forum guidelines is to communicate in understandable language...”

I understand the language. So it’s in understandable language. Also, as a tagline, it doesn’t have to be in a language you can read.

“So you could translate it yourself”

I sure could.

“(and be sure to show your work)”

No need.

“showing the whole world how bad and how limited my own understanding is.”

That’s already happening.

“That would prove...my Latin is very limited, beyond yourself taking the easy way out and just saying that it is...”

Sometimes easy is best.


27 posted on 04/13/2014 10:06:43 AM PDT by vladimir998
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 25 | View Replies]

To: aMorePerfectUnion

“Nowhere in Scripture does God ever mention the office of “pope”.”

He also doesn’t mention “Trinity” or “Bible”.


28 posted on 04/13/2014 10:07:45 AM PDT by vladimir998
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 26 | View Replies]

To: vladimir998

Gods triune nature is taught in Holy Scripture.
Inspiration of certain men and certain Holy Writings is taught in Holy Scripture.

Pope? Not there...


29 posted on 04/13/2014 10:09:49 AM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 28 | View Replies]

To: vladimir998

Translate non-English words to English unless the word or phrase is well known to all.


30 posted on 04/13/2014 10:16:54 AM PDT by Religion Moderator
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: Mrs. Don-o

See my above post.


31 posted on 04/13/2014 10:19:39 AM PDT by Religion Moderator
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 30 | View Replies]

To: aMorePerfectUnion

“Pope? Not there...”

Except only Protestants say that. Just like JWs say there’s nothing there about the Trinity.


32 posted on 04/13/2014 10:27:56 AM PDT by vladimir998
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 29 | View Replies]

To: Religion Moderator

“Translate non-English words to English unless the word or phrase is well known to all.”

Why on earth are you posting that to me? And yes, I will accept your apology when you proffer it.


33 posted on 04/13/2014 10:30:20 AM PDT by vladimir998
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 30 | View Replies]

To: vladimir998

Says the one calling others lazy.


34 posted on 04/13/2014 10:32:15 AM PDT by BlueDragon (You can observe a lot just by watching. Yogi Berra)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: BlueDragon

“Says the one calling others lazy.”

Exactly - because the internet exists, you’re on it, and yet you refuse to use it. Instead you insist others do something as simple as translate a common Latin phrase for you.


35 posted on 04/13/2014 10:38:05 AM PDT by vladimir998
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 34 | View Replies]

To: CharlesOConnell

In the spirit of,
‘Why should we only listen and respond to messages, and messengers, that we like? What use is it, how can Christ’s message transform us, if we only hear what confirms us in what we’re already doing?’, I submit..

Those 15 promises mary gave for praying the rosary has enough mary -centered, non Torah messages, to make me believe she is pointing to a substitute false Messiah.

Can one ascend to pope level and not be very supportive of these mary visions and her promises?

And before one perceives me as protestant church goer- if this mary of the catholic church points to ‘jesus’, what does that say to those protestants who also proclaim that name, jesus?

Maybe that’s why only three Jesus entries are being changed(or have been changed) to ‘Joshua’ in some new testament translations (Luke 3:29, Acts 7:45 and Hebrews 4:8).

If the translators changed them all to the proper English transliteration (and not just those 3 related to that Old Testament guy with the same name of the Messiah) , it may screw with traditions of the churches- not the least, screwing with the only ‘name’ under heaven ,by which we must all be saved...

I don’t know if popes, priests, pastors, preachers would want to follow down that rabbit hole too far.. It may mess up their entire church belief and worship systems...


36 posted on 04/13/2014 10:38:21 AM PDT by delchiante
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: vladimir998

“Except only Protestants say that. Just like JWs say there’s nothing there about the Trinity.”

Well... I don’t know any Methodists, Lutherans or Presbyterians who recognize “pope” as an office of the church - but more importantly, neither does the Apostle Paul in his list of church offices.


37 posted on 04/13/2014 11:22:05 AM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 32 | View Replies]

To: aMorePerfectUnion

“Well... I don’t know any Methodists, Lutherans or Presbyterians who recognize “pope” as an office of the church”

I do. There was a small Lutheran synod that recognized the pope but didn’t actually follow him. Rather strange, but it shows just how theologically divergent Protestant sects are.

“- but more importantly, neither does the Apostle Paul in his list of church offices.”

Actually he listed “apostles”. That’s what Peter was, an Apostle. The successor to the Apostles were bishops.


38 posted on 04/13/2014 11:36:56 AM PDT by vladimir998
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 37 | View Replies]

To: vladimir998
Other than some possible quibbling over my word order (as I used them) -- here being as it seems others won't.

Look --- I know a fishing expedition when I see one, having myself embarked upon many.

Matthew 11:16-17... and more hopefully 29-30 also. shalom

Matthew 13:47-50

47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:

48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.

49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.


39 posted on 04/13/2014 11:48:30 AM PDT by BlueDragon (A ship in the harbor is safe, but that is not what ships are for)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 35 | View Replies]

To: BlueDragon

Internet. Use it.


40 posted on 04/13/2014 11:50:14 AM PDT by vladimir998
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 39 | View Replies]

To: CharlesOConnell

who’s chaining you to the pew?


41 posted on 04/13/2014 11:52:06 AM PDT by morphing libertarian
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: DManA
What if God doesn’t lead me to care who the Pope is?

I don't care who the Pope is either because HE isn't the one who makes all the rules. JESUS did that and appointed Peter as His Vicar on earth to continue His work.

There have been bad popes but it didn't destroy His Church. NO ONE can do that.
Lucifer tried and keeps on trying but he won't win either. HIS "kingdom" is eternal damnation. Yikes, it scares me just to write it.

42 posted on 04/13/2014 11:58:36 AM PDT by cloudmountain
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: vladimir998

#22 -- read it. (it is in English)

Links otherwise provided to you, click on those.

43 posted on 04/13/2014 12:06:56 PM PDT by BlueDragon (A ship in the harbor is safe, but that is not what ships are for)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 40 | View Replies]

To: BlueDragon
I used the wrong url for the link which I had said "here" (being as it seems other won't)

Mash here instead, for that was the originally intended destination. Speaking of "fish" of course...

44 posted on 04/13/2014 12:19:54 PM PDT by BlueDragon (A ship in the harbor is safe, but that is not what ships are for)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 39 | View Replies]

To: vladimir998

ping to #44.
forgot to add your handle to the previous comment.


45 posted on 04/13/2014 12:21:47 PM PDT by BlueDragon (A ship in the harbor is safe, but that is not what ships are for)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 44 | View Replies]

To: vladimir998
"Actually he listed “apostles”. That’s what Peter was, an Apostle."

Apostles are an office that existed at one time, forming the foundation of the church, as the Apostle Paul wrote in Ephesians...

"Together, we are his house, built on the foundation of the apostles and the prophets. And the cornerstone is Christ Jesus himself."

However, we are discussing "pope" not being an office of the church. It never appears an as office under any name, including "pope."

There are also gifts given to the church, but none of them are popes either. "The successor to the Apostles were bishops."

Sorry, your choices are these:

Elder
Deacon

Qualifications are laid out in Scripture, as are responsibilities.

We find several Greek words used to describe functions of Elders.

We find no bishops, archbishops, popes, grand pubas, etc. We also find no Apostolic succession.

46 posted on 04/13/2014 1:05:18 PM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 38 | View Replies]

To: vladimir998

Playing the Catholic card?


47 posted on 04/13/2014 1:07:28 PM PDT by Starstruck (If my reply offends, you probably don't understand sarcasm or criticism...or do.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: aMorePerfectUnion

“However, we are discussing “pope” not being an office of the church. It never appears an as office under any name, including “pope.””

Who is a bishop - an episkopos. The office you left off of your list.


48 posted on 04/13/2014 2:11:41 PM PDT by vladimir998
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 46 | View Replies]

To: vladimir998

Episkopos is just another Greek word describing one duty of Elders of the Church. Five different words are used to describe the main duties of this office.


49 posted on 04/13/2014 2:33:20 PM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 48 | View Replies]

To: aMorePerfectUnion

“Episkopos is just another Greek word describing one duty of Elders of the Church.”

No. The same root word is used in regard to the replacement of Judas. Thus, the bishop is a successor to an Apostle when most properly understood. Otherwise in the NT the word is used interchangeably with the word presbuteros (elder/priest). Distinctions might have come later - obviously - but that is not out of keeping with the NT.

“Five different words are used to describe the main duties of this office.”

And even so, as I said, in Acts 1 we see the clear link between the office of bishop and Apostle.


50 posted on 04/13/2014 3:24:44 PM PDT by vladimir998
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 49 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-100101-146 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson