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Evangelicals Review Matthew Vines' 'God and the Gay Christian' Book
Christian Post ^ | 04/23/2014 | BY STOYAN ZAIMOV

Posted on 04/23/2014 8:23:21 AM PDT by SeekAndFind

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Matthew Vines holding a Bible in a photo dated Aug. 16.

Andrew Walker's full review of God and the Gay Christian, which includes pastoral considerations, can be read here

1 posted on 04/23/2014 8:23:21 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
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To: SeekAndFind
Al Mohler, Jim Hamilton, Denny Burk, Owen Strachan, and Heath Lambert have put together a booklet responding to Matthew Vines.

Here are the chapters:

“God, the Gospel and the Gay Challenge: A Response to Matthew Vines”

“How to Condone What the Bible Condemns: Matthew Vines Takes on the
Old Testament”

“Suppressing the Truth in Unrighteousness: Matthew Vines Takes on the New Testament”

“What Has the Church Believed and Taught? Have Christians Been Wrong All Along?”

“Is a ‘Gay Christian’ Consistent with the Gospel of Christ?”

Read the booklet by clicking here

2 posted on 04/23/2014 8:24:09 AM PDT by SeekAndFind (If at first you don't succeed, put it out for beta test.)
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To: SeekAndFind

“The former Harvard University student, who is gay, rejected traditional Christian teaching on homosexuality and explained in an over hour-long argument using Scripture that the Bible does not condemn loving, same-sex relationships.”

Well, sure, the Bible in fact demands that we love everyone regardless of their sex. Having homosexual sex, on the other hand, is roundly denounced as an abomination.


3 posted on 04/23/2014 8:27:00 AM PDT by Boogieman
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To: SeekAndFind

And Luther’s great work continues.


4 posted on 04/23/2014 8:28:18 AM PDT by wideawake
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To: wideawake

RE: And Luther’s great work continues.

I don’t see how this relates to Luther at all...


5 posted on 04/23/2014 8:29:19 AM PDT by SeekAndFind (If at first you don't succeed, put it out for beta test.)
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To: SeekAndFind
Everyone thinks his own personal interpretation of Scripture is authoritative.

Matthew Vines is standing on the shoulders of giants.

6 posted on 04/23/2014 8:32:40 AM PDT by wideawake
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To: Boogieman

Yes Sir, the bible is extremely clear on this, there’s no way to misinterpret it. I’m an evangelical Christian, and I know myself and others are not going to be “confused” as he would like. Just another false prophet, nothing to see here, move along.


7 posted on 04/23/2014 8:35:05 AM PDT by Bulwyf
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To: SeekAndFind

Coming soon...
“God and the Lustful Christian: A New Look at Looking and Drooling”
“God and the Angry Christian: An Alternative View to Suppressing Real Feelings”
“God and the Covetous Christian: Another Perspective on Wanting More Stuff Than You Have”
“God and the Obese Christian: A Second Look at a Second Helping”


8 posted on 04/23/2014 8:36:59 AM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: SeekAndFind

Well, today we have three lesbians in a marriage in Massachussets. Hopefully Vine will write a wonderful book about how that’s God’s will too. </s>


9 posted on 04/23/2014 8:40:38 AM PDT by struggle
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To: wideawake

“And Luther’s great work continues.”

Spreading misinformation and sowing discord is never a admirable attribute.


10 posted on 04/23/2014 8:43:00 AM PDT by HereInTheHeartland (Obama lied; our healthcare died.)
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To: wideawake

My, aren’t you a little ray of sunshine?


11 posted on 04/23/2014 8:48:28 AM PDT by Boogieman
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To: SeekAndFind

Dude looks possessed literally...


12 posted on 04/23/2014 8:49:46 AM PDT by Roman_War_Criminal (Bible Summary in a few verses: John 14:6, John 6:29, Romans 10:9-10)
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To: SeekAndFind

“nor is there any call to lifelong celibacy for gay people”

No, there isn’t, since God does not acknowledge ‘gay’ as a real thing. Same sex attracted people are free to find a wife or husband of the opposite sex and engage in sexual activity within marriage with that person.

What does God say about same-sex sexual activities?

“If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.” Lev 20:13

Pretty damn clear on the moral law their. The word abomination doesn’t have double-meanings.


13 posted on 04/23/2014 8:52:18 AM PDT by Viennacon
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To: SeekAndFind

the gay christian along with the virgin prostitute and the honest thief.


14 posted on 04/23/2014 8:54:43 AM PDT by MNDude
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To: wideawake

“And Luther’s great work continues.”

And the work of many of your buggering priests.


15 posted on 04/23/2014 8:56:47 AM PDT by PetroniusMaximus
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To: wideawake

So there are no heretics or queers in the Catholic Church?


16 posted on 04/23/2014 8:58:14 AM PDT by Resolute Conservative
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To: SeekAndFind

Butt boy drivel


17 posted on 04/23/2014 8:59:36 AM PDT by Vendome (Don't take life so seriously-you won't live through it anyway-Enjoy Yourself ala Louis Prima)
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To: PetroniusMaximus
And the work of many of your buggering priests.

Well that's just the thing, isn't it?

The ones in our ranks don't even bother to argue that what they are doing is defensible according to Church teaching. They either publicly denounce Church teaching or they hide.

They can't really argue that they are following the Church's interpretation of Scripture or that they are following the Church's tradition.

They are forced to either be non-Catholics or disobedient Catholics.

What Vines is doing is quite different. He is insisting on two core Reformation principles: the sufficiency of Scripture alone and private judgment of Scripture.

He is arguing that traditional morality is not sufficiently supported by Scripture alone and he is also arguing that his own prayerful, deliberate searching of the Scriptures supports his view.

There Matthew Vines, he can do no other.

And who can refute him on these grounds? Albert Mohler - a very intelligent and learned theologian of a thoroughly reformed background falls back on a 2,000 year interpretive tradition to refute Vines.

As well he should, because he cannot fight Vines on either sufficiency or private judgment grounds.

18 posted on 04/23/2014 9:10:08 AM PDT by wideawake
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To: Resolute Conservative

Please see post 18.


19 posted on 04/23/2014 9:10:50 AM PDT by wideawake
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To: SeekAndFind
...using Scripture that the Bible does not condemn loving, same-sex relationships...

Sure ... those are called friendships.
When those "same-sex relationships" turn sexual -- they are condemned throughout the Bible for the perversions that they are.
Sodom and Gomorrah got a front row preview seat regarding those that 'go after strange flesh' (Jude 1:7).
We are told not to deceive ourselves into believing that God will 'wink' at these sins (1 Corinthians 6:9-10 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God).
And the first Chapter of Paul's letter to the Romans tells us that a Nation should expect this outbreak of 'perversion' when it forgets God (or as Psalm 9 puts it: Psalms 9:17 The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God).

20 posted on 04/23/2014 9:11:01 AM PDT by El Cid (Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house...)
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To: wideawake; SeekAndFind

“And they do it with Maradiaga’s sophisms, which state that, yes, Jesus’ words on marriage are binding, “but they can be interpreted” as today there are many new situations of cohabitation and “answers which can no longer be based on authoritarianism and moralism” are needed. “

Unique marriage being discussed in the Catholic church too.


21 posted on 04/23/2014 9:15:15 AM PDT by the_daug
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To: wideawake

I am sure Lucifer is happy with Matthew.


22 posted on 04/23/2014 9:20:24 AM PDT by ohioman
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To: struggle

re: Well, today we have three lesbians in a marriage in Massachussets.

Can you provide a source or link to that?


23 posted on 04/23/2014 9:23:22 AM PDT by SeekAndFind (If at first you don't succeed, put it out for beta test.)
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To: the_daug
Maradiaga is certainly not the first - and there is no way he is the last - bishop to temporize.

I am reminded of Cardinal Ottaviani's comment that the first Scriptural example of collegiality is Matthew 14:50.

24 posted on 04/23/2014 9:23:58 AM PDT by wideawake
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To: wideawake

RE: The ones in our ranks don’t even bother to argue that what they are doing is defensible according to Church teaching. They either publicly denounce Church teaching or they hide.

I refer you to the likes of Nancy Pelosi, John Kerry, Andrew Cuomo and many other Pro-gay, pro-abortion Roman Catholics who are shaping the future of this country. I don’t see them hiding.

In fact, they are setting PUBLIC POLICY.


25 posted on 04/23/2014 9:26:11 AM PDT by SeekAndFind (If at first you don't succeed, put it out for beta test.)
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To: wideawake

I don’t see anyone disciplining Bishop Ackermann...


26 posted on 04/23/2014 9:31:09 AM PDT by PetroniusMaximus
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To: SeekAndFind
I refer you to the likes of Nancy Pelosi, John Kerry, Andrew Cuomo and many other Pro-gay, pro-abortion Roman Catholics

You seem to have missed the point.

All three openly admit that they disagree with Church teaching.

Not one of them argues that their indefensible positions are based on Catholic tradition. Whenever they defend themselves against critics, they use secular or heretical arguments for their position because they cannot proceed on Catholic principles. They basically argue: "We are keeping up with the times: the Church is backward now, but we think it will catch up to us."

Vines, by contrast, builds his arguments on at least two core principles of the Reformation: the principle of the sufficiency of Scripture and the principle of private judgment of Scripture.

27 posted on 04/23/2014 9:35:52 AM PDT by wideawake
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To: wideawake

RE: All three openly admit that they disagree with Church teaching.

And Matthew Vines agrees with the church’s teachings?

Did you miss the refutations by Pastors and Scholars of various denominations to what he wrote?


28 posted on 04/23/2014 9:40:59 AM PDT by SeekAndFind (If at first you don't succeed, put it out for beta test.)
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To: wideawake

RE: Vines, by contrast, builds his arguments on at least two core principles of the Reformation: the principle of the sufficiency of Scripture and the principle of private judgment of Scripture.

On the principle of sufficiency of scripture, scripture itself ALREADY condemns homosexuality both in the Old and New Testament. No amount of appeal to tradition is going to change the minds of people like Pelosi, Cuomo, Kerry or Vines.

On the private judgment of scripture -— what’s going to stop people like these from making their own private judgments of tradition?


29 posted on 04/23/2014 9:44:57 AM PDT by SeekAndFind (If at first you don't succeed, put it out for beta test.)
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To: PetroniusMaximus
What has Ackermann done?

He has expressed an opinion - and demonstrated his poor understanding of Church doctrine.

Ackermann has, however, been very careful not to issue written instructions to his flock to disobey Church teaching, nor has he presided over illicit remarriages, nor has he authorized his clergy to do so, nor has he taken any other actions to "put his money where his mouth is."

Because, if he does, he knows he will be disciplined.

He knows the Hans Kung line, and he knows not to cross it.

Discipline in the Church is not arbitrary: it is canonical.

30 posted on 04/23/2014 9:45:09 AM PDT by wideawake
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To: wideawake

RE: The ones in our ranks don’t even bother to argue that what they are doing is defensible according to Church teaching. They either publicly denounce Church teaching or they hide.

Not all of them..

See here:

http://www.christianpost.com/news/radical-nuns-supporting-abortion-gay-marriage-meet-with-us-bishops-84887/

‘Radical’ Nuns Supporting Abortion, Gay Marriage Meet With US Bishops

EXCERPT:

An “open” and “cordial” meeting was held this past weekend by three U.S. Catholic bishops and the Catholic sisters whom the Vatican has called “radical” and “feminist” for their support of same-sex marriage and abortion.

The Leadership Conference of Women Religious (LCWR) officers met with Seattle Archbishop J. Peter Sartain, Springfield, Ill., Bishop Thomas Paprocki and Toledo, Ohio, Bishop Leonard Blair, all members of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops (USCCB).

Annmarie Sanders, Director for Communications for the LCWR, shared with The Christian Post the full statement from the group, which was said to address the doctrinal assessment of the LCWR by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (CDF). Sanders noted that further discussions were planned for a later date, although the specific issues that might have been brought up with were not revealed.

MORE HERE:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/12/father-bob-pierson-gay-marriage-minnesota_n_1589996.html

Father Bob Pierson, Gay Priest, On Why Catholics Should Support Same-Sex Marriage (VIDEO)


31 posted on 04/23/2014 9:52:30 AM PDT by SeekAndFind (If at first you don't succeed, put it out for beta test.)
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To: SeekAndFind

You just have to LAUGH at these fools. Don’t give them one smidgen of credibility. Anyone who thinks that the bible doesn’t condemn homosexuality can’t read.

I won’t list the many old and new testament verses, we all know them, but I will address the word “ABOMINATION”, used in several of those verses.

“Abomination” is what God thinks of homosexual activity (gay sex acts). It has always been my understanding that the strongest word you could use to describe something vile, is abomination.

noun: abomination; plural noun: abominations

1. a thing that causes disgust or hatred.

synonyms: atrocity, disgrace, horror, obscenity, outrage, evil, crime, monstrosity, anathema, bane

1. Abhorrence; disgust.

2. A cause of abhorrence or disgust.

1. a person or thing that is disgusting

2. an action that is vicious, vile

3. intense loathing

1. something greatly disliked or abhorred.

2. intense aversion or loathing; detestation.

3. a vile or shameful action, condition, or habit.

Abomination translated from Hebrew, means... abomination

Abomination translated from Greek, means... abomination

There is NO WAY a sane person can think that homosexuality and Christianity are compatible in any form.

There is HOPE. REPENT

•2 Chronicles 7:14 “If My people, which are called by My Name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from Heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.”

If you stop homosexual activity, you are no longer homosexual. Homosexual sex is what PROVES that a person is a homosexual.


32 posted on 04/23/2014 9:58:35 AM PDT by faucetman ( Just the facts, ma'am, Just the facts)
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To: SeekAndFind
That's pretty weak tea.

The LCWR, which is not a canonical organization but a private one, has publicly disagreed with Church teaching.

Just as I said these sorts of people do.

Robert Pierson voluntarily withdrew from the Catholic ministry and lives in an Episcopal retreat house now.

You prove my point again.

Far from arguing from Catholic doctrine and tradition, these people argue against both.

33 posted on 04/23/2014 9:58:36 AM PDT by wideawake
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To: SeekAndFind

http://offbeatbride.com/2013/11/massachusetts-lesbian-poly-wedding


34 posted on 04/23/2014 10:00:19 AM PDT by struggle
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To: SeekAndFind

Matthew Vines is but fuel for the fire.

His evil heart will leave him with no defense when his judgement comes before God.

He can change, and even accept Christ as his Lord and savior, but the damage he has done will make it very difficult.

Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is a tough one to overcome.

History is replete with reprobates who joined Satan’s army.


35 posted on 04/23/2014 10:01:33 AM PDT by OneVike (I'm just a Christian waiting for a ride home)
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To: wideawake

Ugh. I’ve come to expect Roman Catholic FReepers to be arrogant, but your injecting your denominational arrogance into this discussion within just a few comments ... is just pathetic.

Why not promote Jesus as much as you promote your denomination, yeah? And try not to derail conversations like you are doing here.


36 posted on 04/23/2014 10:03:32 AM PDT by Theo (May Christ be exalted above all.)
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To: wideawake

My point is this — you have Scripture and you have tradition.

If you are going to ignore scripture, you WILL ignore tradition.

Catholics do it, non-Catholics do it.

And you can’t blame Luther for sinful people regardless of which denomination they claim to come from.


37 posted on 04/23/2014 10:05:34 AM PDT by SeekAndFind (If at first you don't succeed, put it out for beta test.)
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To: wideawake

RE: Far from arguing from Catholic doctrine and tradition, these people argue against both.

And is Catholic doctrine in HARMONY with Scripture or not?

If so, then, by arguing against scripture, they are DE FACTO arguing against Catholic doctrine.


38 posted on 04/23/2014 10:11:55 AM PDT by SeekAndFind (If at first you don't succeed, put it out for beta test.)
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To: Theo
Ugh. I’ve come to expect Roman Catholic FReepers to be arrogant, but your injecting your denominational arrogance into this discussion within just a few comments ... is just pathetic.

That's not much of an argument.

I don't have a "denomination." The Church is the Body of Christ. You are making a false distinction.

And try not to derail conversations like you are doing here.

You're derailing the conversation.

The article clearly describes what Vines is arguing and what grounds he is using to make his argument.

It also outlines the response of the SBC to his argument.

My comments are precisely on topic and on point: Vines is using core Reformation principles to argue against traditional Christian morality.

The SBC response is to either sidestep like Walker or, like Mohler, fall back on 2,000 years of traditional Scriptural interpretation.

That's fascinating, wouldn't you say?

39 posted on 04/23/2014 10:13:46 AM PDT by wideawake
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To: Theo

Exactly. It is like the Church is on the same level as Jesus. I will choose Him and His word over any church.


40 posted on 04/23/2014 10:16:05 AM PDT by Resolute Conservative
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To: wideawake

The majority of Catholics support the homosexual agenda and vote for their party, your reaction to this man trying to win over the bastion of Christian voters who vote as Christians, is interesting, and bizarre.


41 posted on 04/23/2014 10:17:37 AM PDT by ansel12 ((Libertarianism offers the transitory concepts and dialogue to move from conservatism, to liberalism)
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To: SeekAndFind
And you can’t blame Luther for sinful people

I'm not ascribing Vines' personal sins to Luther. Vines did those things himself.

I am ascribing Vines' argument in justification of his sins to Luther.

Luther argued for using Scripture as the sole grounds for theological argument, denouncing both Tradition and Reason as extraneous and dangerous.

Luther also argued that one's own personal interpretation of Scripture was the ultimate rule of faith, not any external guide.

Vines is proceeding on precisely these principles.

42 posted on 04/23/2014 10:19:17 AM PDT by wideawake
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To: wideawake

“the first Scriptural example of collegiality is Matthew 14:50.”

sorry! I don’t have Matthew 14:50 in my Bible.

Anyway this, Mathew Vines is in need of intercessory prayer on the part of Christian’s before he leads struggling hurting people to the wide road of destruction.


43 posted on 04/23/2014 10:22:14 AM PDT by the_daug
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To: wideawake

RE: I am ascribing Vines’ argument in justification of his sins to Luther.

And my point is YOU CANNOT DO IT.

Scripture ALREADY condemns homosexuality. Any sinful person can RATIONALIZE what scripture clearly teaches and ignore it.

Just as anyone can interpret scripture by rationalization, anyone can IGNORE Catholic doctrine by rationalizing it away.

There is NO GUARANTEE that because you are Catholic, you will obey Catholic doctrine ( which I am sure you will agree, is IN HARMONY with scripture ).

Therefore, mentioning Luther is a red herring. He has NOTHING TO DO with Matthew Vines, just as Pelosi, Cuomo or these priests and nuns have NOTHING TO DO with Catholic doctrine.


44 posted on 04/23/2014 10:23:31 AM PDT by SeekAndFind (If at first you don't succeed, put it out for beta test.)
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To: wideawake

RE: Luther argued for using Scripture as the sole grounds for theological argument, denouncing both Tradition and Reason as extraneous and dangerous.

Let’s be clear, Luther was not against tradition or reason.

Luther was always for JUDGING tradition and reason in the light of what is written in scripture.


45 posted on 04/23/2014 10:25:40 AM PDT by SeekAndFind (If at first you don't succeed, put it out for beta test.)
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To: ansel12
The majority of Catholics support the homosexual agenda and vote for their party

Is a Catholic a Catholic if he never goes to Mass?

your reaction to this man trying to win over the bastion of Christian voters who vote as Christians

Catholics who attend weekly Mass vote as Christians, just as most "cultural Protestants" and "cultural Catholics" do not vote as Christians, and if a Catholic attends weekly Mass he is most likely impervious to Vines' method of argument.

is interesting, and bizarre

Interesting because I think Vines' rhetorical strategy needs to be examined, instead of being accepted uncritically?

My reaction is bizarre because I actually paid attention to what Vines' rhetorical strategy is? Should the proper reaction be to ignore what he is doing rather than try to pick it apart?

46 posted on 04/23/2014 10:28:23 AM PDT by wideawake
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To: the_daug
sorry! I don’t have Matthew 14:50 in my Bible.

My apologies. Mark 14:50.

47 posted on 04/23/2014 10:30:03 AM PDT by wideawake
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To: SeekAndFind
Scripture ALREADY condemns homosexuality.

Indeed. It also condemns private judgment.

Yet when one uses the principle of private judgment as one's starting point, once can justify anything.

Matthew Vines is living proof of the depths to which this principle leads.

Just as anyone can interpret scripture by rationalization, anyone can IGNORE Catholic doctrine by rationalizing it away.

They cannot, however, argue that such rationalization is justified on the grounds of an inviolable principle of private judgment.

Non serviam is where it all begins.

48 posted on 04/23/2014 10:35:54 AM PDT by wideawake
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To: wideawake

The gay marriage left depends on the vote of the Catholic denomination, and wrote a law promoted by the Catholic president, to import millions more Catholic voters, to advance the left’s agenda and to insure the future of the left and Europeanism over Americanism.

Now here we are on this thread arguing with the democrat owned denomination, about the Christians who are most hated by the left, the Evangelicals.


49 posted on 04/23/2014 10:40:01 AM PDT by ansel12 ((Libertarianism offers the transitory concepts and dialogue to move from conservatism, to liberalism)
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To: wideawake

RE: Indeed. It also condemns private judgment.

Being led by the spirit and carefully and soundly interpreting scripture by studying it is COMMANDED in scripture. Therefore, studying it in community with the saints is not “private” interpretation.

Based on this, Matthew Vines is NOT interpreting scripture soundly.

The admonitions of those who refute him shows this already.

RE: They cannot, however, argue that such rationalization is justified on the grounds of an inviolable principle of private judgment.

Neither can one argue that interpreting scripture by using SOUND JUDGMENT based on the leading of the spirit in communion with like minded Christians is wrong.

Vines DID NOT DO THAT and it is shown by the responses made to his book by Christians who STUDIED SCRIPTURE seriously and interpreted it soundly and rightly interpreted it.

See Paul’s admonition in 2 Timothy 2:15.


50 posted on 04/23/2014 10:41:28 AM PDT by SeekAndFind (If at first you don't succeed, put it out for beta test.)
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