Posted on 04/25/2014 6:35:42 PM PDT by Belteshazzar
Depends on your perspective. I would not call it “infinite punishment.” I would say it’s “infinite you got what you wanted.” Some people don’t want God in their lives. In a way, they are getting their fondest wish.
My wife and I once attended a child-raising seminar sponsored by the Institute for Love and Logic. There was much to it but the essence was you taught your children that actions have consequences. When they make the wrong choices you don’t interfere with the consequences. Was that sadistic?
And what is the nature of torture? My daughter needed her jaw broken in order to align her bite, and then spent years with her teeth wired together, with regular and painful tightening of the wires. It was painful as parents for us to watch and I’m sure that at the time it felt like torture to her, but today she is a lovely young mother with a beautiful smile. Maybe what you perceive as torture is God trying to nudge you in the right direction. After all, the Bible says that those whom God loves He chastens. Perhaps He loves you more than you know.
That sounds like you will be in Dante’s first circle.
Existence is Hell.
I agree with much of what you say, but how can we prove that God is all-good? Do we know that God is all good to some Chinese peasant who lived 4,000 years ago? No. We finite creatures cannot prove these infinite claims even remotely.
And if God would punish one person for infinity who deserves a finite punishment, then He is not just not omnibenevolent, but worse than all humans put together. That is how fragile this whole thing is. The claims that Christianity makes are totally shocking, and people do not really try to comprehend them, but go about their daily lives and do what others are doing.
If Heaven is total communion with God for eternity and God is sadistic, then again things break down completely and we should all choose Hell, because even if there is intense physical suffering (like heat and fire), Hell is the only place free from God’s “love.”
Thank you all for your kind words of advice and prayers. I took some time off from this to calm down.
I have read everyone’s post and am just trying to think things through at a someone slower pace now. I am trying to carefully consider what everyone has said to me.
Thank you all.
Exactly, my friend. Hell is a choice, not a punishment imposed by God. As to nonbelievers who have not had a chance to know God, there is ample evidence in the Bible that God makes allowances for their lack of knowledge. The Catholic Church (though I’m a protestant) have a doctrine called “invincible ignorance,” which states essentially that He won’t condemn someone to hell for not knowing what they can’t know. Those who have had a chance to know but reject it have no excuse.
Yes, I was raised Catholic, as you can tell.
Since no one really can comprehend infinity, and I would argue that no one can comprehend or prove that God is perfectly good (assuming that he is), thus maybe God can send no one to Hell, except the fallen angels who know much more than we do.
The only problem is Jesus spend a whole lot of time talking about Hell in the Gospels. I cannot read the Gospels anymore without getting extremely anxious.
Maybe people go to Hell, but it is a lower percentage than I fear. Because right now, with the sins people are doing, it seems like almost everybody is going there.
I am just confused. Thank you though for the thought that some may avoid Hell through invincible ignorance.
I would argue that no one can comprehend or prove that God is sadistic (assuming that He is), thus maybe God sends no one to Hell.
You make an interesting point about the fallen angels. The United Church of God (of which I am NOT a member) posits that only the fallen angels are sent to hell. In fact, they make a pretty good argument that we don’t have immortal souls to begin with. The same word “nephesh” is used in the OT to denote life, spirit, and soul, and it is translated according to the context. Of course, the NT (Greek being somewhat more precise than Hebrew) distinct words are used for each of these. The same is true of “sheol” and “hades.” The OT uses “sheol” 65 times. It is translated as grave 31 times, hell 31 times, and pit 3 times. The NT uses hades 11 times, translating it as hell 10 times and as grave once. So, in a sense, translation makes all the difference in reading the scriptures.
But I’m getting off the point: The UCoG says that Revelation 20:10 indicates that hell is the destination for the devil and his cohorts, where they will be tormented forever, but that Malachi 4:1-3 and Mark 9:47-48 indicate that any human beings cast into the lake of fire will be destroyed. So, in a sense a human’s punishment WILL be eternal, in that being destroyed is a forever thing, but humans will not be tormented eternally. They make a pretty good argument. I could send you a pamphlet they put out on it if you’d like.
Where lies the truth? To be honest, friend, I don’t know, and I’m content with that. I’m not sure that it’s possible for a human to understand all of the mysteries of God. Whoever God is, He is so much beyond what we are that we can’t comprehend Him in totality. It would be like asking a chimpanzee to understand Shakespeare. Fortunately, we are not asked to; we are asked only to have faith, and that, of course, is a gift from God, free for the asking.
Thank you for the offer of the pamphlet, but I am going to decline. To me Jesus says numerous times that the pain never ends. I think you are trying to be a bit too clever by suggesting that punishment can continue while the person can be destroyed forever.
I have been concentrating on some moments in my life in God may have spoken to me. Not that this is clear, but maybe He gave me help in a few areas of my life. The thing that is so confusing is often I think the ideas were mine alone and other times I think someone gave them to me.
Actually it is more than just guidance, I often get the sense that my life means something, and the guidance is just helping me fulfill the meaning in my life.
If I am created for a meaningful purpose, and if someone (other than myself) is internally guiding me to the right purpose, than this person must be God, and this guidance must be His will. Sometimes this guidance seems loving, sometimes is seems downright cruel, and sometimes I am not sure that anyone is guiding me at all.
This is sort of an existential proof of God that I came up with the last few days. Not sure if it works.
Christ was kind of "hard boiled," actually. But his yoke was light, I hear. :-)
(Sorry, I couldn't help myself).
He says if you seek Him with all your heart you will find Him. Sounds like you’re seeking. As a former agnostic/atheist who also sought, good luck with your quest!
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