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Pope Francis makes history with dual canonization of Pope John XXIII, Pope John Paul II
FoxNews.com ^ | FoxNews.com

Posted on 04/27/2014 6:45:53 PM PDT by Salvation

Pope Francis declared Popes John XXIII and John Paul II saints before some 800,000 people on Sunday in an unprecedented ceremony made even more historic by the presence of emeritus Pope Benedict XVI in St. Peter's Square.

Never before have a reigning pope and a retired pope celebrated Mass together in public, much less at an event honoring two of their most famous predecessors.

Benedict's presence was a reflection of the balancing act that Francis envisioned when he decided to canonize John and John Paul together, showing the unity of the Catholic Church by honoring popes beloved by conservatives and progressives alike.

Francis made that point clear in his homily, praising both new saints for their work associated with the Second Vatican Council, the groundbreaking meetings that brought the 2,000-year-old institution into modern times. John convened the council in 1962 while John Paul helped ensure its more conservative implementation and interpretation.

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Francis took a deep breath and paused for a moment before reciting the saint-making formula in Latin at the start of the ceremony, as if moved by the history he was about to make in canonizing two popes at once.

He said that after deliberating, consulting and praying for divine assistance "we declare and define that Blessed John XXIII and John Paul II be saints and we enroll them among the saints, decreeing that they are to be venerated as such by the whole church."

Applause broke out from a crowd that stretched from St. Peter's to the Tiber River and beyond.

 

 


(Excerpt) Read more at foxnews.com ...


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; History; Theology
KEYWORDS: canonization; catholic; johnpaulii; johnxxiii; popefrancis
More to read here.
1 posted on 04/27/2014 6:45:54 PM PDT by Salvation
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To: nickcarraway; NYer; ELS; Pyro7480; livius; ArrogantBustard; Catholicguy; RobbyS; marshmallow; ...

More canonization details from a different source!


2 posted on 04/27/2014 6:47:07 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation
Pope Francis makes history with dual canonization of Pope John XXIII, Pope John Paul II
Pope Francis’ sermon for the canonization
Images of the Priest in the Life and Thought of John Paul II
Two Modern Saints for the Modern World [Catholic Caucus]
Woman healed by John Paul II's intercession recounts miracle
John Paul II and The Blessed Sacrament
Why Divine Mercy Sunday is the most fitting day for John Paul II’s canonization
LETTER OF POPE JOHN PAUL II TO WOMEN

Honoring Two Beloved Popes (Sainthood of John XXIII and John Paul II)
Sainthood rites for John Paul II, John XXIII to be beamed around the world (3D in cinemas, for free)
More to Know About John Paul II
Solemnity is the order of the day for John Paul II and John XXIII’s double canonization
Personal Notes Underscore John Paul II's Marian Devotion
In rare interview, Benedict XVI recalls life of John Paul II
Benedict XVI: 'It Was Clear John Paul II Was a Saint'
Thieves confess, but relic of Blessed John Paul II still missing [Catholic Caucus]
Book: Pope John Paul II’s Mother Rejected Doctor’s Abortion Suggestion
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The Day I Met John Paul II in a Pizza Joint (Joked: Catholic Church will collapse. But what if..)
Popes John XXIII, John Paul II to be canonized April 27th
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Film Review: "John Paul II: The Man, The Pope, and His Message"
Monument to John Paul II Unveiled in Moscow
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Monument to John Paul II to be Set Up in Moscow
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Rome’s exorcist finding Bl. John Paul II effective against Satan (Catholic Caucus)
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New book on John Paul II gives details on self-mortification, kidnap plot (Cath caucus)
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3 posted on 04/27/2014 6:54:59 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: All
Pope Francis makes history with dual canonization of Pope John XXIII, Pope John Paul II
Pope Francis’ sermon for the canonization
Angelo Roncalli and Priestly Celibacy (Pope John XXIII)
Two Modern Saints for the Modern World [Catholic Caucus]
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Solemnity is the order of the day for John Paul II and John XXIII’s double canonization
Two (soon to be) Saints Who Smiled

Popes John XXIII, John Paul II to be canonized April 27th
Canonization date announced for Blessed Popes John Paul II and John XXIII
Pope Francis signs canonization decrees for John XXIII and John Paul II
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The St. Pius X - Bl. John XXIII Connection
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Blessed Pope John XXIII [Catholic Caucus]
Wants Honor for John XXIII - Pope Should Be Declared "Righteous Among the Nations"
Blessed Pope John XXIII and Vatican II on Respect for Human Life
Angelo Roncalli (Pope John XXIII) and Priestly Celibacy

4 posted on 04/27/2014 6:56:09 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

The Apostle Paul addressed his Epistle to the Colossians thusly: To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ who are in Colosse, etc.
Also, Paul wrote “to all the saints in Christ Jesus who are in Phillipi, etc.; and, on another occasion, “To the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus.

No account is given as to how those folks achieved sainthood.


5 posted on 04/27/2014 7:06:18 PM PDT by Elsiejay
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To: Salvation
Francis took a deep breath and paused for a moment before reciting the saint-making formula in Latin

Wonder why the Apostles didn't have a saint-making formula in the Greek...

I guess that's because it's a 'not in the bible' far newer custom which does not exist in any of the scriptures that your religion invented...

Rom_15:25 But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints.

1Co 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

It's a pity your religion didn't pick a different name for all these people that supposedly are more holy than the rest of us because all born again Christians are saints...

6 posted on 04/27/2014 7:09:40 PM PDT by Iscool (Ya mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailer park...)
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To: Salvation

Why was Benedict left out?


7 posted on 04/27/2014 7:12:43 PM PDT by Theophilus (.)
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To: Theophilus

Don’t they have to be dead first?


8 posted on 04/27/2014 7:22:15 PM PDT by Hugin
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To: Salvation
the more little tidbits I read about John the 23rd the more I think he moved the church to accept the homosexual priest enmasse....at least it started with him...

now John Paul the 2nd...a true saint...a person who's presence moved people....is his sainthood diminished by being cannonzied with John the 23rd?...

are we seeing the face of schism in the church?....

9 posted on 04/27/2014 7:28:02 PM PDT by cherry
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To: Theophilus

Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI were much more devout Roman Catholics than Pope Roncalli/John XXIII ...


10 posted on 04/27/2014 7:34:38 PM PDT by Ken522
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To: Salvation

“Pope Francis makes history”

And he’ll make more history when he recognizes same sex
civil unions as a compromise. He will you know.


11 posted on 04/27/2014 7:38:55 PM PDT by Slambat
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To: Elsiejay

Many of the bible connotations were in greetings. Notice that it is saint with a small ‘s’.

Catholic Saints go through a decision process to be called first, venerable (holy person), blessed (beatified/beatification, and last sainthood with a CAP ‘S’ and they are then addressed at Saint.... or Saint.

So in a way we are talking about the same thing — living good lives on earth, but also different things because of the Catholic process.


12 posted on 04/27/2014 7:42:45 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Ken522

How do you know they were more devout? Did you work in the Vatican at that time to personally observe their prayer habits?


13 posted on 04/27/2014 7:44:35 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Slambat

He has already stated otherwise — supporting the indissolubility of a sacramental marriage between a man and a woman. There was a thread posted about it.


14 posted on 04/27/2014 7:45:57 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

Orate pro nobis! We’re going to need it in the next few years...


15 posted on 04/27/2014 7:50:08 PM PDT by Unam Sanctam
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To: Salvation
Not being Catholic, I don't really understand this “canonization” thing too well, but I think I would rather see the cannonading of Washngton DC.
16 posted on 04/27/2014 9:01:56 PM PDT by Tupelo (I feel more like Philip Nolan every day)
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To: Salvation

“Notice that it is saint with a small ‘s’.”

The only kind God recognizes in Scripture.

The procedure you reference is simply made up.


17 posted on 04/27/2014 9:04:48 PM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion
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To: Salvation

I stayed up to watch it LIVE on EWTN and I’ve seen the repeat again.

So GOOD to see Pope Benedict XVI looking well, happy and so good!

God bless and keep him.

I love that “saintly” man.


18 posted on 04/28/2014 1:56:23 AM PDT by onyx (Please Support Free Republic - Donate Monthly! If you want on Sarah Palin's Ping List, Let Me know!)
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To: Elsiejay

Rather it is better to wait for the title of saint to come out until one passes on.


19 posted on 04/28/2014 4:47:43 AM PDT by Biggirl (“Go, do not be afraid, and serve”-Pope Francis)
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To: aMorePerfectUnion

No, Salvation is correct here.


20 posted on 04/28/2014 4:48:23 AM PDT by Biggirl (“Go, do not be afraid, and serve”-Pope Francis)
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To: Salvation

Thank you,Lord, for the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. Amen.
Thank you, Pope Francis and Pope Benedict XVI, for making the faithful sure that these two virtuous men are truly Saints and models for the Church today.


21 posted on 04/28/2014 4:52:23 AM PDT by jacknhoo (Luke 12:51. Think ye, that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, no; but separation.)
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To: jacknhoo

I join in your prayer of thanksgiving. Bless you.


22 posted on 04/28/2014 6:36:41 AM PDT by Bigg Red (1 Pt 1: As he who called you is holy, be holy yourselves in every aspect of your conduct.)
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To: Biggirl; Salvation

Bless you both for trying to explain, but it is hopeless, IMO.

Praying for the detractors is all we can do.

My mother was fond of repeating the old admonition:
Don’t let them get your goat.


23 posted on 04/28/2014 6:39:22 AM PDT by Bigg Red (1 Pt 1: As he who called you is holy, be holy yourselves in every aspect of your conduct.)
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To: Biggirl

“No, Salvation is correct...”

Thank you for sharing your opinion. Do you have any facts to support it?


24 posted on 04/28/2014 6:47:20 AM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion
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To: Iscool

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/3149405/posts?page=12#12


25 posted on 04/28/2014 7:25:13 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: cherry
now John Paul the 2nd...a true saint...a person who's presence moved people....is his sainthood diminished by being cannonzied with John the 23rd?...

How so? It was during his long pontificate that the world-wide sex abuse crisis grew, festered and was concealed.

26 posted on 04/28/2014 7:37:58 AM PDT by BlatherNaut
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To: Elsiejay
Well, there are myriads of saints on earth among us, and multiple myriads who have gone before us into Eternal Life. And they *all* did it in the same way: by the grace of God, knowing Him, loving Him, and serving Him in this life, and by the merits of Jesus Christ, joining Him in triumph.

And --- as you note ---Saints have been honored in the Church since the first century of the Christian era. But the complex courtroom-type process to evaluate a candidate for canonization wasn't set up until 1,000 yeas later. And this was, in part, to stave off the "popular vote" honors going to war heroes, matriarchs of nobility, rich donors, sweet pretty girls who died young, and others who may have appealed to people on a celebrity level, but who might have had a certain mediocrity as to faith and morals.

Therefore the bishops installed a process that would take years, hopefully after the first emotions about a local celebrity's death had died down (typically a generation later) and there was still time to interview people who knew them, examine their writings in detail, see if the Devil's Advocate digs up any dirt, pray and wait... and wait ... and wait... for a couple of authenticating miracles, etc.

I personally favor this method, and my own opinion is that Pope Francis acted WAY too fast to canonize these two popes, especially +JP2 (although he does two well-attested miracles linked to his intercesssory prayer.) In my opinion, they should have waited until 2050 r so. But---

That'll be two cent, please.

There's my two cents' worth.

27 posted on 04/28/2014 2:21:52 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o ("The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" - Jeremiah 17:9)
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To: Iscool
Well, Fox News may call it a "saint-making formula," but of course it's not5 it at all. God makes people saints, not formulas.

After there's been a well-attested miracle or two, the "formula," is more or less saying, "OK, God, we hear ya loud and clear."

28 posted on 04/28/2014 2:24:16 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o ("The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective." James 5:16)
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To: cherry; Salvation
"Homosexual priests"? Now that puzzles me. I am no expert, but I understand that in 1962 Pope John published a Motu Proprio or something of the sort, saying that young homosexually-inclined men were not to be admitted to seminaries.

My own guess--- and it is admittedly a guess --- is that he was unaware of the presence of what Pope Francis now calls the "Gay Lobby" --- when there are secret networks of homosexuals in key positions (e.g. rectors of seminaries) who recommend each other, promote each other, and cover up for each other.

Some of these "secretive" operators are deceitful, manipulative, and cunning to such a degree that an honest normal person never even suspects because they cannot fathom it.

29 posted on 04/28/2014 2:31:26 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o ("The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective." James 5:16)
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To: Slambat
Thank you for your clairvoyance in the confident prediction of things that haven't happened.

The future sure ain't what it used to be. /s/

30 posted on 04/28/2014 2:33:17 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (Your sarcasm tag: never leave home without it.)
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To: aMorePerfectUnion
Well, Christ gave the Church the power to forgive sins and to retain them, to bind and to loose, and went so far as to ordain teachers:

1 Corinthians 12:28
"And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers; then deeds of power, then gifts of healing, forms of assistance, forms of leadership, various kinds of tongues."
Not all, but only some:

1 Corinthians 12:29
"Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles?"
and to endow those teachers with His authority:

Luke 10:16
‘Whoever listens to you listens to me, and whoever rejects you rejects me, and whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me.’

So these things you call "made up" flow from the mandate Christ gave to His Church. Not Biblical? Of course they're Biblical -- in this sense: they come from the reality of the Church doing what it needs to to doing order to teach, govern, and sanctify.

The Church is not a fly trapped in amber, fossilized and inert for centuries. The Church, springing from that mustard-seed of faith, becomes the largest of garden plants, where even the birds can come and nest.

31 posted on 04/28/2014 2:55:00 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o ("The Holy Catholic Church: the more Holy she is, the more Catholic she is.")
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To: Mrs. Don-o
Well, Fox News may call it a "saint-making formula," but of course it's not5 it at all. God makes people saints, not formulas.

I got that information from where I get all my Catholic information, from other Catholics...That came from a piece posted by a Catholic in a censored thread...

32 posted on 04/28/2014 2:59:53 PM PDT by Iscool (Ya mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailer park...)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

Mrs. Don-o,

Because of my respect and appreciate for you, I will not take your post apart, verse by verse.

I will simply say that on every point I find the Scriptures are not saying what you wrote. Ironically, there are different reasons for each point.

In any case, what you are arguing is that the Church can teach whatever it wishes, without the restrictions of God’s revelation, because it is the church. This is a false argument.

In this instance, the Roman Church invented a process to create a new super-Christian title that is foreign to Scripture. It perverts the simplicity of what God inspired and revealed and consequently, diminishes His revelation of EVERY believer’s position in Christ. It clouds the understanding of the members of the Body of Christ who may be included in the Roman Church.

For these reasons and others, it is a man-made religious ladder of works that is to be rejected.

kindest regards.


33 posted on 04/28/2014 3:06:47 PM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion
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To: Mrs. Don-o
Luke 10:16
‘Whoever listens to you listens to me, and whoever rejects you rejects me, and whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me.’

So these things you call "made up" flow from the mandate Christ gave to His Church. Not Biblical? Of course they're Biblical -- in this sense: they come from the reality of the Church doing what it needs to to doing order to teach, govern, and sanctify.

Just because they are in the bible doesn't make them biblical...

Luk 10:16 He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.
Luk 10:17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.
Luk 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
Luk 10:19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
Luk 10:20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

Is there anyone in your religion who has the power to tread on scorpians and serpents without injury??? How about do your clergy have all power over all the power of the enemy??? I certainly hope you said no...

In which case it is abundantly clear that these verses don't apply to you, your religion or anyone you know...

34 posted on 04/28/2014 3:19:37 PM PDT by Iscool (Ya mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailer park...)
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To: Iscool
"I got that information from where I get all my Catholic information, from other Catholics...That came from a piece posted by a Catholic in a censored thread.."

Well, there's your problem.

A more intellectually respectable source of Catholic information would be from official teachers or official summaries of the teachings e.g. the Catechism, which is searchable (LINK)in a couple of mouse clicks.

If you want to get information about the relationship between biliary metal stents and air embolism, you could talk to a guy who has a stent, or you could go to cardiologists or medical journals. If it's a matter of life or death to you, I'd recommend the latter.

35 posted on 04/28/2014 3:25:30 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o ("The Holy Catholic Church: the more Holy she is, the more Catholic she is.")
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To: aMorePerfectUnion
"...what you are arguing is that the Church can teach whatever it wishes, without the restrictions of God’s revelation, because it is the church."

Not true. That is absolutely NOT what I am arguing. (???I'm surprised you could even imagine such a thing.)

Obviously the Truth is One and is non-self-contradictory. The Church cannot contradict the truths of Scripture, which are the words of the Lord God.

"... Roman Church invented a process to create a new super-Christian title that is foreign to Scripture."

Not true, again. "Saint" just means "Holy," and in most of Europe's languages (the Romance languages) they are expressed by the same word (variations on Sancta) Like Spanish: Santa Cruz = Holy Cross.

Also in the Germanic languages (Heilig, etc.) So Christians can apply the word "holy" to any number of people, places, customs, or things, if they are sepecially associated with, or dedicated to, God.

Think of these terms: Holy Bible. Holy Night. Sacred Music. Holy Land. Sacred Cross. Holy Apostles. Sacred Art. Holy Books. Sacred duty.

None of those phrases are verbatim in the Bible,--- for that matter,the word "Bible" is not even in the Bible--- but we use them every day. Even if they ARE new super-Christian titles not found in Scripture. The canon (book-list) of the BIBLE is not fund in Scripture. So I do not think it unbiblical to speak of holy saints who hold up their holy hands, etc.

God makes things holy. That's it.

I appreciate your gracious and cordial tone, as always. No need to think that any of this is said, or perceived, disrespectfully. We know each other better than that, dear AMPU!

36 posted on 04/28/2014 3:46:09 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o ("The Holy Catholic Church: the more Holy she is, the more Catholic she is.")
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To: Iscool
#36
37 posted on 04/28/2014 3:47:24 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o ("The Holy Catholic Church: the more Holy she is, the more Catholic she is.")
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To: Mrs. Don-o

I also understand that some complicit Bishops were nominated by Bernardin and Jadot. I call them Bernardin’s Boys and Jadot’s Jots.


38 posted on 04/28/2014 5:47:07 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Mrs. Don-o; NYer

I also think that almost all these left-leaning Bishops have been replaced. There are only a couple or so left. Or maybe Hubbard was the last one.


39 posted on 04/28/2014 5:48:09 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Iscool

**I get all my Catholic information, from other Catholics**

This is making you sound as though you are a Catholic. Is that true?


40 posted on 04/28/2014 5:49:15 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

That’s what concerns me. Apostolic Nuncios who are part of the Lobby. Jean Jadot and Pio Laghi.


41 posted on 04/28/2014 6:14:50 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o ("St. Michael the Archangel, defend us in battle ...against the wickedness and snares of the devil.")
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To: Mrs. Don-o

MDO,

“Not true, again. “Saint” just means “Holy,” and in most of Europe’s languages (the Romance languages) they are expressed by the same word (variations on Sancta) Like Spanish: Santa Cruz = Holy Cross.”

Saint means to be set apart. That is Biblical and is used by God to describe every true believer in Christ.

“Also in the Germanic languages (Heilig, etc.) So Christians can apply the word “holy” to any number of people, places, customs, or things, if they are sepecially associated with, or dedicated to, God.”

This is interesting, but has nothing to do with NT Greek usage of the word, which is inspired.

“None of those phrases are verbatim in the Bible,-— for that matter,the word “Bible” is not even in the Bible-— but we use them every day. Even if they ARE new super-Christian titles not found in Scripture. The canon (book-list) of the BIBLE is not fund in Scripture. So I do not think it unbiblical to speak of holy saints who hold up their holy hands, etc.”

Two points:

1. We are not talking about “speaking” of something, as in “holy saints who lift their hands. We are discussing the creation of a category of (we hope) Christians who are above all other Christians. This is unBiblical. It perverts the position of a man or woman in Christ by lessening it and exalting another without absolute knowledge.

2. The word “bible” isn’t in Scripture. Inspiration of certain writings is revealed by God in the Bible. As such, when we speak of the “Bible”, we know it is a collection of the inspired writings. It is short-hand for referring to the entire collection. The index of the Bible is not inspired. It is a listing of the writings that are believed to be inspired and is there for convenience. As you know, the same applies to verse numbers and chapters and the arrangement of the writings within the collection. “Trinity” is not found in the Bible, but we find the teaching of the Triune God in the inspired writings. What we don’t find is a teaching of a process to declare “Saints” - something that is foreign to Scripture. God declares all believers “saints”.

Best to you,
ampu


42 posted on 04/29/2014 6:12:33 AM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion
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To: Salvation
This is making you sound as though you are a Catholic. Is that true?

I think you probably know better than that...If I want to know what the bible teaches, I go to the bible...If I want to know what Catholicism teaches, I go to Catholics...And that's how I know your religion doesn't line up with the bible...I compare the two and they don't match...

43 posted on 04/29/2014 8:29:40 AM PDT by Iscool (Ya mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailer park...)
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To: Iscool; Salvation
If I want to know what the bible teaches, I go to the bible...If I want to know what Catholicism teaches, I go to Catholics...And that's how I know your religion doesn't line up with my interpretation of the bible...I compare the two and they don't match...

Your unfortunate mistake is corrected above.

44 posted on 04/29/2014 10:41:50 AM PDT by Al Hitan ("you did it to me")
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To: aMorePerfectUnion
I was going to say "Good Morning," AMPU, but I've been out in the garden all morning trying to divide my clumps of chives, give my strawberries a little TLC, and put up some supports for my fava beans so they don't all bent and broken by the severe thunderstorms and high winds we have predicted. So here we we are, afternoon already, tired, eating some excellent potato soup (with a lot, lot, lotta chives in it), and attending to our mutual theological education :o)

"Saint means to be set apart. That is Biblical and is used by God to describe every true believer in Christ."

Agreed.

" We are discussing the creation of a category of (we hope) Christians who are above all other Christians. This is unBiblical."

Tis not unBiblical. Paul talks of those gone on before us as a "cloud of witnesses" and Revelation is full of references to these "myriads of people" "souls of the just" and so forth. All of these terms, like "saint," can be correctly be used for people both in heaven and on earth.

However how do we know how many of the saints on earth persevered to the end? We cannot know.

That is, we cannot know unless God tells us.

There is an unfortunate tendency, both in Protestant and Catholic funeral practices, to instantly acclaim all of the former pew-sitters who are now deceased, to be in heaven. You know what I'm talking about: newspaper obits that say "Gracie Ann Fuller, of Bluff City TN, age 87, has gone to be with the Lord." Eulogies guaranteeing that the recently-passed has "gone to a better place."

Comforting to the survivors, to be sure, but nobody knows that. The person might have had a huge, well-concealed, unrepented sin on their soul that successfully tempted them to reject Christ at the end.

Nevertheless, you end up, not just with funeral canonizations for one and all, but also being (analogically) raised to the honors of the altar: you have "Munsey Memorial Methodist Church" and "Ryder Memorial Presbyterian Church" and "Snyder Chapel" and "Clarence Walker Ministries" and "Steven Walker Ministries" and "Melanie Walker Ministries" (those Walkers sure do get around"---

And none of those Munseys, Snyers or Walkers have ever been subjected to a sustained and systematic scrutiny of their lives, words or works, lest alone received confirmation of their being in heaven from God via a posthumous miracle or two linked to their intercessory prayer.

One of the hoped-for results of a formalized canonization process is (to some extent) to prevent the proliferation of the kind of sentiment-based or Founder-Donor-based saint-making you find in almost every religious denomination.

You will find very few, if any, Catholic Churches dedicated to hometown sports heroes, deep-pockets contributors, Pastors'-Grandmas, or sweet pretty girls who died young.

In fact, if anyone in Rome had asked me, I would have said to set aside this project of the double-pope-canonization until they BOTH had TWO confirming miracles (Gideon and the fleece, you know) via their posthumous intercessory prayer, and they BOTH were dead for 50 years.

It prevents hasty celebrity canonizations.

Yes, I'm more traditional that the Pope.

OK, I finished my soup and my cornbread. Back outside now to put in the stakes and and stabilize my fava beans before the storm hits.

Grace and peace to you and all the saints.

45 posted on 04/29/2014 11:45:31 AM PDT by Mrs. Don-o ("St. Michael the Archangel, defend us in battle ...against the wickedness and snares of the devil.")
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To: Mrs. Don-o

MD-O,

My day was rainy and filled with doctor’s appointments. Yours sounds better.

“However how do we know how many of the saints on earth persevered to the end? We cannot know.”

No we do not know.

I would add that when someone has entrusted themselves to Christ’s finished work, the issue is eternal rewards vs. “If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.” I Cor 3:15.

In this sense ALL who have entrusted themselves to Christ - the Gospel of Grace in exchange for all their sins, is a saint, starting from the moment of salvation.

Those who are Christians indeed, will persevere. God called all Christians saints (without exception), while still alive.

“That is, we cannot know unless God tells us.”

Agreed. He did, of course tell us. What we do not know is whether they came to the point of faith in Him and His sacrifice alone. Their lives testify.

“There is an unfortunate tendency, both in Protestant and Catholic funeral practices, to instantly acclaim”

We agree - even more-so, every friend and every family member whether churched or not makes this assumption. And they are “looking down at us right now.”

“The person might have had a huge, well-concealed, unrepented sin on their soul that successfully tempted them to reject Christ at the end.”

We will disagree there. All sins were paid for at the cross.

“And none of those Munseys, Snyers or Walkers have ever been subjected to a sustained and systematic scrutiny of their lives, words or works, lest alone received confirmation of their being in heaven from God via a posthumous miracle or two linked to their intercessory prayer.”

Well, this is true to a large degree on earth. In heaven, and on earth, only God knows the heart. When it comes to posthumous miracles, no one can possibly know the miracle was the result of the intercession to the departed person - indeed, can not know the departed person heard it, prayed themselves, or that God’s miracle was a result of this prayer. Again, it is an opinion on earth - regardless of the level of scrutiny.

“One of the hoped-for results of a formalized canonization process is (to some extent) to prevent the proliferation of the kind of sentiment-based or Founder-Donor-based saint-making you find in almost every religious denomination.”

... at the expense of adding requirements to God’s plain declaration.

“OK, I finished my soup and my cornbread. Back outside now to put in the stakes and and stabilize my fava beans before the storm hits.”

You must be south of us. Our frost date isn’t until May 15th. I’m still building raised beds.

“Grace and peace to you and all the saints. “

Mega Grace & Peace dittos back at you.


46 posted on 04/29/2014 6:07:11 PM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion
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