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Purgatory is in the Bible
Tim Staples' Blog ^ | March 11, 2014 | Tim Staples

Posted on 05/02/2014 12:28:06 AM PDT by GonzoII

Purgatory is in the Bible

This may well be the most common single question I receive concerning our Catholic Faith whether it be at conferences, via email, snail mail, or any other venue. In fact, I’ve answered it twice today already, so I thought I might just blog about it.

We’ll begin by making clear just what we mean by “Purgatory.” The Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches:

All who die in God’s grace, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven (1030).

This seems so simple. Its common sense. Scripture is very clear when it says, “But nothing unclean shall enter [heaven]” (Rev. 21:27). Hab. 1:13 says, “You [God]… are of purer eyes than to behold evil and cannot look on wrong…” How many of us will be perfectly sanctified at the time of our deaths? I dare say most of us will be in need of further purification in order to enter the gates of heaven after we die, if, please God, we die in a state of grace.

In light of this, the truth about Purgatory is almost self-evident to Catholics. However, to many Protestants this is one of the most repugnant of all Catholic teachings. It represents “a medieval invention nowhere to be found in the Bible.” It’s often called “a denial of the sufficiency of Christ’s sacrifice.” It is said to represent “a second-chance theology that is abominable.” And most often the inquiries come from Catholics who are asking for help to explain Purgatory to a friend, family member, or co-worker.

A Very Good Place to Start

Perhaps the best place to start is with the most overt reference to a “Purgatory” of sorts in the Old Testament. I say a “Purgatory of sorts” because Purgatory is a teaching fully revealed in the New Testament and defined by the Catholic Church. The Old Testament people of God would not have called it “Purgatory,” but they did clearly believe that the sins of the dead could be atoned for by the living as I will now prove. This is a constitutive element of what Catholics call “Purgatory.”

In II Maccabees 12:39-46, we discover Judas Maccabeus and members of his Jewish military forces collecting the bodies of some fallen comrades who had been killed in battle. When they discovered these men were carrying “sacred tokens of the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear” (vs. 40), Judas and his companions discerned they had died as a punishment for sin. Therefore, Judas and his men,

“… turned to prayer beseeching that the sin which had been committed might be wholly blotted out… He also took up a collection… and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering. In doing this he acted very well and honorably… Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.”

There are usually two immediate objections to the use of this text when talking with Protestants. First, they will dismiss any evidence presented in II Maccabees because they do not accept its inspiration. And second, they will claim these men in Maccabees committed the sin of idolatry, which would be a mortal sin in Catholic theology. According to the Catholic Church, they would be in Hell where there is no possibility of atonement. Thus, and ironically so, they will say, Purgatory must be eliminated as a possible interpretation of this text if you’re Catholic.

The Catholic Response:

Rejecting the inspiration and canonicity of II Maccabees does not negate its historical value. Maccabees aids us in knowing, purely from an historical perspective at the very least, the Jews believed in praying and making atonement for the dead shortly before the advent of Christ. This is the faith in which Jesus and the apostles were raised. And it is in this context Jesus declares in the New Testament:

And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come (Matthew 12:32, emphasis added).

This declaration of our Lord implies there are at least some sins that can be forgiven in the next life to a people who already believed it. If Jesus wanted to condemn this teaching commonly taught in Israel, he was not doing a very good job of it according to St. Matthew’s Gospel.

The next objection presents a more complex problem. The punishment for mortal sin is, in fact, definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed (the definition of Hell)  according to Catholic teaching (see CCC 1030). But it is a non-sequitur to conclude from this teaching that II Maccabees could not be referring to a type of Purgatory.

First of all, a careful reading of the text reveals the sin of these men to be carrying small amulets “or sacred tokens of the idols of Jamnia” under their tunics as they were going in to battle. This would be closer to a Christian baseball player believing there is some kind of power in his performing superstitious rituals before going to bat than it would be to the mortal sin of idolatry. This was, most likely, a venial sin for them. But even if what they did would have been objectively grave matter, good Jews in ancient times—just like good Catholics today—believed they should always pray for the souls of those who have died “for thou [O Lord], thou only knowest the hearts of the children of men” (II Chr. 6:30). God alone knows the degree of culpability of these “sinners.” Moreover, some or all of them may have repented before they died. Both the ancient Jews and Catholic Christians always retain hope for the salvation of the deceased this side of heaven; thus, we always pray for those who have died.

A Plainer Text

In Matthew 5:25-26, Jesus is even more explicit about Purgatory.

Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison; truly I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny.

For Catholics, Tertullian for example, in De Anima 58, written in ca. AD 208, this teaching is parabolic, using the well-known example of “prison” and the necessary penitence it represents, as a metaphor for Purgatorial suffering that will be required for lesser transgressions, represented by the “kodrantes” or “penny” of verse 26. But for many Protestants, our Lord is here giving simple instructions to his followers concerning this life exclusively. This has nothing to do with Purgatory.

This traditional Protestant interpretation is very weak contextually. These verses are found in the midst of the famous “Sermon on the Mount,” where our Lord teaches about heaven (vs. 20), hell (vs. 29-30), and both mortal (vs. 22) and venial sins (vs. 19), in a context that presents “the Kingdom of Heaven” as the ultimate goal (see verses 3-12). Our Lord goes on to say if you do not love your enemies, “what reward have you” (verse 46)? And he makes very clear these “rewards” are not of this world. They are “rewards from your Father who is in heaven” (6:1) or “treasures in heaven” (6:19).

Further, as St. John points out in John 20:31, all Scripture is written “that believing, you may have [eternal] life in his name.” Scripture must always be viewed in the context of our full realization of the divine life in the world to come. Our present life is presented “as a vapor which appears for a little while, and afterwards shall vanish away” (James 1:17). It would seem odd to see the deeper and even “other worldly” emphasis throughout the Sermon of the Mount, excepting these two verses.

When we add to this the fact that the Greek word for prison, phulake, is the same word used by St. Peter, in I Peter 3:19, to describe the “holding place” into which Jesus descended after his death to liberate the detained spirits of Old Testament believers, the Catholic position makes even more sense. Phulake is demonstrably used in the New Testament to refer to a temporary holding place and not exclusively in this life.

The Plainest Text

I Corinthians 3:11-15 may well be the most straightforward text in all of Sacred Scripture when it comes to Purgatory:

For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble—each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

No Christian sect I know of even attempts to deny this text speaks of the judgment of God where the works of the faithful will be tested after death. It says our works will go through “fire,” figuratively speaking. In Scripture, “fire” is used metaphorically in two ways: as a purifying agent (Mal. 3:2-3; Matt. 3:11; Mark 9:49); and as that which consumes (Matt. 3:12; 2 Thess. 1:7-8). So it is a fitting symbol here for God’s judgment. Some of the “works” represented are being burned up and some are being purified. These works survive or burn according to their essential “quality” (Gr. hopoiov – of what sort).

What is being referred to cannot be heaven because there are imperfections that need to be “burned up” (see again, Rev. 21:27, Hab. 1:13). It cannot be hell because souls are being saved. So what is it? The Protestant calls it “the Judgment” and we Catholics agree. We Catholics simply specify the part of the judgment of the saved where imperfections are purged as “Purgatory.”

Objection!

The Protestant respondent will immediately spotlight the fact that there is no mention, at least explicitly, of “the cleansing of sin” anywhere in the text. There is only the testing of works. The focus is on the rewards believers will receive for their service, not on how their character is cleansed from sin or imperfection. And the believers here watch their works go through the fire, but they escape it!

First, what are sins, but bad or wicked works (see Matthew 7:21-23, John 8:40, Galatians 5:19-21)? If these “works” do not represent sins and imperfections, why would they need to be eliminated? Second, it is impossible for a “work” to be cleansed apart from the human being who performed it. We are, in a certain sense, what we do when it comes to our moral choices. There is no such thing as a “work” floating around somewhere detached from a human being that could be cleansed apart from that human being. The idea of works being separate from persons does not make sense.

Most importantly, however, this idea of “works” being “burned up” apart from the soul that performed the work contradicts the text itself. The text does say the works will be tested by fire, but “if the work survives… he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he shall suffer loss.” And, “he will be saved, but only as through fire” (Gr. dia puros). The truth is: both the works of the individual and the individual will go through the cleansing “fire” described by St. Paul in order that “he” might finally be saved and enter into the joy of the Lord. Sounds an awful lot like Purgatory.

If you’d like to dive deeper into this topic, click here.



TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; History; Theology
KEYWORDS: bible; catholic; maine; purgatory; romancatholicism; scripture; scriptures
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"The Catholic Response:

Rejecting the inspiration and canonicity of II Maccabees does not negate its historical value. Maccabees aids us in knowing, purely from an historical perspective at the very least, the Jews believed in praying and making atonement for the dead shortly before the advent of Christ. This is the faith in which Jesus and the apostles were raised. And it is in this context Jesus declares in the New Testament:

And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come (Matthew 12:32, emphasis added).

This declaration of our Lord implies there are at least some sins that can be forgiven in the next life to a people who already believed it. If Jesus wanted to condemn this teaching commonly taught in Israel, he was not doing a very good job of it according to St. Matthew’s Gospel."


1 posted on 05/02/2014 12:28:06 AM PDT by GonzoII
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To: GonzoII
Wow, Timmy Staples is on a roll! No, Tim, there is no Purgatory, the Bible NEVER speaks of, infers, allegorizes or hints that such an intermediate place between heaven and hell exists. Even using the NON-inspired writings of Maccabees DISPROVES it as well. There is less than scant evidence for this perverted doctrine in Scripture - not that this has been a problem for many of the doctrines thought up over the centuries by the Roman Catholic Church.
2 posted on 05/02/2014 12:45:53 AM PDT by boatbums (quod semper, quod ubique, quod ab omnibus)
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To: GonzoII; Jed Eckert; Recovering Ex-hippie; KingOfVagabonds; Berlin_Freeper; UnRuley1; mlizzy; ...
+

Freep-mail me to get on or off my pro-life and Catholic List:

Add me / Remove me

Please ping me to note-worthy Pro-Life or Catholic threads, or other threads of general interest.

3 posted on 05/02/2014 12:51:05 AM PDT by narses (Matthew 7:6. He appears to have made up his mind let him live with the consequences.)
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To: boatbums

4 posted on 05/02/2014 12:51:24 AM PDT by narses (Matthew 7:6. He appears to have made up his mind let him live with the consequences.)
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To: narses; boatbums

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/3151157/posts?page=22#22


5 posted on 05/02/2014 12:59:29 AM PDT by Berlin_Freeper (Land of the Free and the home of the Brave!)
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To: GonzoII
Just why couldn't the Bible have been more precise on this immensely important theological point? Why didn't it spell out in black and white exactly what happens after death? That wouldn't have prevented a lot of uncertainty and unnecessary speculation (much of it presumably wrong).

On other matters (dietary regulations, rules regarding menstruation, etc.), the Bible splits hairs and explains in embarassing detail what we are to do and what we can expect. But when it comes to a matter literally of Life and Death and the eternal destiny of our everlasting souls, the Bible provides us only with a few vague passages haphazardly strewn across hundreds of years - some of those passages even apparently contradicting one another.

I wouldn't sign a rental agreement that was this unclear, let alone bet my everlasting soul on it.

Regards,

6 posted on 05/02/2014 1:19:38 AM PDT by alexander_busek (Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.)
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To: GonzoII
Catholic Playlist Show - Episode #36 - May 2, 2014
7 posted on 05/02/2014 1:29:34 AM PDT by Berlin_Freeper (Land of the Free and the home of the Brave!)
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To: GonzoII; metmom; boatbums; Gamecock; rnmom

What a load of bilge.

The verses used as proof texts are so pulled and twisted that it might be humorous; except that this is God’s word that’s being twisted.

Hmmm. I suppose that the thief on the cross was told, “in some unspecified time, you’ll be with me in Paradise” — uh, wait ...

Jesus told the thief that “TODAY you shall be with me in Paradise.”

Now, a thief being crucified just HAD to be in need of some purification.

Right?

Hoss


8 posted on 05/02/2014 2:48:42 AM PDT by HossB86 (Christ, and Him alone.)
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To: boatbums

This.


9 posted on 05/02/2014 2:52:25 AM PDT by madison10
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To: HossB86

To be fair there is some dispute about the placement of a comma, such as: “I tell you today, you shall be be with me in Paradise.”

The comma placement does change the time factor.


10 posted on 05/02/2014 2:54:47 AM PDT by madison10
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To: GonzoII

Question: “What is the difference between Catholics and Protestants?”

Answer: There are several important differences between Catholics and Protestants. While there have been some attempts over the last several years to find common ground between the two groups, the fact is that the differences remain, and they are just as important today as they were at the beginning of the Protestant Reformation. The following is brief summary of some of the more important differences:

One of the first major differences between Catholicism and Protestantism is the issue of the sufficiency and authority of Scripture. Protestants believe that the Bible alone is the source of God’s special revelation to mankind and teaches us all that is necessary for our salvation from sin. Protestants view the Bible as the standard by which all Christian behavior must be measured. This belief is commonly referred to as “sola scriptura” and is one of the “five solas” (sola is Latin for “alone”) that came out of the Protestant Reformation as summaries of some of the differences between Catholics and Protestants.

While there are many verses in the Bible that establish its authority and its sufficiency for all matters of faith and practice, one of the clearest is 2 Timothy 3:16, where we see that “all Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.” Catholics reject the doctrine of sola scriptura and do not believe that the Bible alone is sufficient. They believe that both the Bible and sacred Roman Catholic tradition are equally binding upon the Christian. Many Roman Catholics doctrines, such as purgatory, praying to the saints, worship or veneration of Mary, etc., have little or no basis in Scripture but are based solely on Roman Catholic traditions. Essentially, the Roman Catholic Church’s denial of sola scriptura and its insistence that both the Bible and tradition are equal in authority undermine the sufficiency, authority, and completeness of the Bible. The view of Scripture is at the root of many, if not all, of the differences between Catholics and Protestants.

Another disagreement between Catholicism and Protestantism is over the office and authority of the Pope. According to Catholicism the Pope is the “Vicar of Christ” (a vicar is a substitute) and takes the place of Jesus as the visible head of the Church. As such, the Pope has the ability to speak ex cathedra (with authority on matters of faith and practice), making his teachings infallible and binding upon all Christians. On the other hand, Protestants believe that no human being is infallible and that Christ alone is the Head of the Church. Catholics rely on apostolic succession as a way of trying to establish the Pope’s authority. Protestants believe that the church’s authority comes not from apostolic succession but from the Word of God. Spiritual power and authority do not rest in the hands of a mere man but in the very Word of God. While Catholicism teaches that only the Catholic Church can properly interpret the Bible, Protestants believe that the Bible teaches God sent the Holy Spirit to indwell all born-again believers, enabling all believers to understand the message of the Bible.

Protestants point to passages such as John 14:16–17: “I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.” (See also John 14:26 and 1 John 2:27.)

A third major difference between Catholicism and Protestantism is how one is saved. Another of the five solas of the Reformation is sola fide (“faith alone”), which affirms the biblical doctrine of justification by grace alone through faith alone because of Christ alone (Ephesians 2:8–10). However, Catholics teach that the Christian must rely on faith plus “meritorious works” in order to be saved. Essential to the Roman Catholic doctrine of salvation are the Seven Sacraments, which are baptism, confirmation, the Eucharist, penance, anointing of the sick, holy orders, and matrimony. Protestants believe that, on the basis of faith in Christ alone, believers are justified by God, as all their sins are paid for by Christ on the cross and His righteousness is imputed to them. Catholics, on the other hand, believe that Christ’s righteousness is imparted to the believer by “grace through faith,” but in itself is not sufficient to justify the believer. The believer must supplement the righteousness of Christ imparted to him with meritorious works.

Catholics and Protestants also disagree on what it means to be justified before God. To the Catholic, justification involves being made righteous and holy. He believes that faith in Christ is only the beginning of salvation and that the individual must build upon that with good works because God’s grace of eternal salvation must be merited. This view of justification contradicts the clear teaching of Scripture in passages such as Romans 4:1–12, Titus 3:3–7, and many others. Protestants distinguish between the one-time act of justification (when we are declared righteous by God based on our faith in Christ’s atonement on the cross) and the process of sanctification (the development of righteousness that continues throughout our lives on earth). While Protestants recognize that works are important, they believe they are the result or fruit of salvation but never the means to it. Catholics blend justification and sanctification together into one ongoing process, which leads to confusion about how one is saved.

A fourth major difference between Catholics and Protestants has to do with what happens after death. Both believe that unbelievers will spend eternity in hell, but there are significant differences about what happens to believers. From their church traditions and their reliance on non-canonical books, the Catholics have developed the doctrine of purgatory. Purgatory, according to the Catholic Encyclopedia, is a “place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God’s grace, are not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions.” On the other hand, Protestants believe that because we are justified by faith in Christ alone and that Christ’s righteousness is imputed to us—when we die, we will go straight to heaven to be in the presence of the Lord (2 Corinthians 5:6–10 and Philippians 1:23).

One disturbing aspect about the Catholic doctrine of purgatory is the belief that man can and must pay for his own sins. This results in a low view of the sufficiency and efficiency of Christ’s atonement on the cross. Simply put, the Roman Catholic view of salvation implies that Christ’s atonement on the cross was insufficient payment for the sins of those who believe in Him and that even a believer must pay for his own sins, either through acts of penance or time in purgatory. Yet the Bible teaches that it is Christ’s death alone that can satisfy or propitiate God’s wrath against sinners (Romans 3:25; Hebrews 2:17; 1 John 2:2; 1 John 4:10). Our works of righteousness cannot add to what Christ has already accomplished.

The differences between Catholicism and evangelical Protestants are important and significant. Paul wrote Galatians to combat the Judaizers (Jews who said that Gentile Christians had to obey the Old Testament Law to be saved). Like the Judaizers, Catholics make human works necessary for one to be justified by God, and they end up with a completely different gospel.

It is our prayer that God will open the eyes of those who are putting their faith in the teachings of the Catholic Church. It is our hope that everyone will understand that his “works of righteousness” cannot justify him or sanctify him (Isaiah 64:6). We pray that all will instead put their faith solely in the fact that we are “justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith” (Romans 3:24–25). God saves us, “not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life” (Titus 3:5–7).

http://www.gotquestions.org/difference-Catholic-Protestant.html


11 posted on 05/02/2014 3:25:20 AM PDT by Mechanicos (When did we amend the Constitution for a 2nd Federal Prohibition?)
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To: GonzoII

“All who die in God’s grace, but still imperfectly purified”

Ah, Christ’s sacrifice doesn’t purify us “whiter than snow” after all? Into the cosmic washing machine for a few millennia?

A couple strained interpretations stemming from a rejected work does not undo the clear totality of scripture.


12 posted on 05/02/2014 3:35:12 AM PDT by ctdonath2 ("If they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun" - Obama, setting RoE with his opposition)
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To: HossB86

-——Jesus told the thief that “TODAY you shall be with me in Paradise.”——
Geez....if Jesus had asked Peter the first Pope for clarification while he was hanging on the cross, Peter would have spoken in “ex cathedra” and none of this would be confusing...../ S


13 posted on 05/02/2014 3:43:48 AM PDT by Popman ("Resistance to Tyrants is Obedience to God" - Thomas Jefferson)
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To: GonzoII

no, it is not in the Bible

Not even once.


14 posted on 05/02/2014 3:47:24 AM PDT by RaceBannon (Lk 16:31 And he said unto him If they hear not Moses and the prophets neither will theybe persuaded)
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To: GonzoII

The biggest problem I have with Purgatory is that it leaves the work of Jesus only partly finished. When Jesus said from the cross, “It is finished!” there was nothing left to be done. Through the Grace of His sacrifice we are made Holy, fully worthy of standing before God Almighty. Alleluia!


15 posted on 05/02/2014 3:54:00 AM PDT by impactplayer
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To: HossB86

I will take Jesus’ word for it over not universally recognized scripture.


16 posted on 05/02/2014 3:55:13 AM PDT by Josa
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To: madison10; HossB86
To be fair there is some dispute about the placement of a comma [...]

Which only goes to show that Christ should have waited until the publication of the Chicago Manual of Style (which regulates the use of commas in the English language) or the development of cell phones with built-in cameras and live video feed before being born. Then we'd all have certainty about this vital issue.

"I tell you today: You shall be with me in Paradise [after a few millenia in Purgatory]."

"I tell you today - as opposed to informing you yesterday or mentioning it to you tomorrow: You shall be with me in Paradise [in less than 12 parsecs]."

Regards,

17 posted on 05/02/2014 4:20:56 AM PDT by alexander_busek (Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.)
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To: alexander_busek

Why wasn’t the Bible precise about the Trinity either? That must be wrong too.


18 posted on 05/02/2014 4:54:57 AM PDT by tiki
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To: GonzoII

Purgatory as a holding place for believers DID exist... but it was not and is NOT a place for “purification”

It has a name... Sheole; Paradise

It is also now EMPTY!

Jesus set the captives free from Sheole when he descended to hell upon death (with that thief who died with Him)

Christians before Jesus death on the cross resided in Sheole.

Christians after Jesus death on the cross go straight to heaven. (to be abscent from the body is to be present with the Lord)

Death of the physical body IS the final purification.

There is no “purification” AFTER death.

“It is appointed to man ONCE to die, THEN comes the judgment.


19 posted on 05/02/2014 4:58:12 AM PDT by Safrguns (PM me if you like to play Minecraft!)
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To: boatbums

“How many of us will be perfectly sanctified at the time of our deaths?”

Scripture answers that and it answers it clearly: ALL those in Christ will be perfectly sanctified.

It’s not about the perfection or sanctification of the sinner, it’s all about the perfection of the sinner’s substitute, Christ Jesus. “For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.” (2 Corinthians 5:21)

We will stand in at the bar of justice as pure and innocent as Christ Himself. Why? Because His righteousness is imputed to our account and He bore our ALL of our sin on the tree.

Speaking of the Savior, Titus 2:14 says, “Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.” Did you catch that? He redeemed us from ALL iniquity.

“But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption”
—1 Corinthians 1:30

Christ Jesus is our righteousness! Christ Jesus is our SANCTIFICATION! It’s all about HIM!

Hebrews 10:10 says, “By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.” We are sanctified through Him!

In Galatians 3:3 Paul asks, “Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?”

Hebrews 10:14 says, “For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.” How are we going to be more sanctified than perfect forever?

Colossians 2:9-10 tells us, “For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:” True born again believers are COMPLETE in HIM.

Purgatory is another unbiblical form of bondage foisted on poor sinners by the papal antichrist system and I don’t how anyone could consider it good news. It’s a lie! Sinners, look to Christ alone and be free of the bondage of Rome! (or any other manmade bondage!) You can never purify yourself enough to be fitted for heaven, but HE can.

This is what Christ Himself said, “Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.” (Matthew 11:28-30)

Now that is good news!


20 posted on 05/02/2014 5:02:45 AM PDT by .45 Long Colt
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To: madison10

I’m glad you mentioned that.
After his resurrection he said:
Jhn 20:17

Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

He plainly states that he did not go to paradise.


21 posted on 05/02/2014 5:45:03 AM PDT by spankalib ("I freed a thousand slaves. I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves.")
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To: Popman

Seriously! But, be careful: there may be some old parchment somewhere that can be twisted to say that Peter actually DID say that....</sarcasm>

It’s amazing the semantic gymnastics that occur to try to make something that never is mentioned in Scripture support the Magicsterium’s dictat.

Hoss


22 posted on 05/02/2014 5:52:55 AM PDT by HossB86 (Christ, and Him alone.)
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To: Josa

God’s inerrant, inspired word is good enough for me too. Too bad it’s not enough for the RCC..

Hoss


23 posted on 05/02/2014 5:54:06 AM PDT by HossB86 (Christ, and Him alone.)
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To: GonzoII

I believe that the *only* thing that can wash away my sin is the blood of JESUS! Why do I believe this? Because the bible says so, and it doesn’t require interpretation, debate, translation or verbal wrestling to understand.

Why look for inferences and implied meanings to believe one thing, when the truth is plain, simple and clear?

Then I need to remind myself that segregation by denomination is a man-made concept....


24 posted on 05/02/2014 5:59:41 AM PDT by jaydee770
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To: GonzoII

“Purgatory.

New Testament

There are several passages in the New Testament that point to a process of purification after death. Thus, Jesus Christ declares (Matthew 12:32): “And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come.” According to St. Isidore of Seville (Deord. creatur., c. xiv, n. 6) these words prove that in the next life “some sins will be forgiven and purged away by a certain purifying fire.” St. Augustine also argues “that some sinners are not forgiven either in this world or in the next would not be truly said unless there were other [sinners] who, though not forgiven in this world, are forgiven in the world to come” (City of God XXI.24). The same interpretation is given by Gregory the Great (Dial., IV, xxxix); St. Bede (commentary on this text); St. Bernard (Sermo lxvi in Cantic., n. 11) and other eminent theological writers.

A further argument is supplied by St. Paul in 1 Corinthians 3:11-15:

“For other foundation no man can lay, but that which is laid; which is Christ Jesus. Now if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay stubble: Every man’s work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work, of what sort it is. If any man’s work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man’s work burn, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.”


25 posted on 05/02/2014 6:05:10 AM PDT by franky8 (For the souls of the faithful departed.)
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To: tiki

It is precise about the Trinity. Twice all three were in one place at one time, especially Jesus’ baptism. The word “trinity” just is not used.


26 posted on 05/02/2014 6:24:36 AM PDT by madison10
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To: franky8

You and these “saints” are reading something into the text that isn’t there while ignoring the very plain reading of other texts. Ignore what Rome says and pay close attention to the clear words of Scripture.

I promise you entering heaven isn’t about the perfection or sanctification of the sinner, it’s all about the perfection of the sinner’s substitute, Christ Jesus. “For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.” (2 Corinthians 5:21)

Sinners in Christ are made righteous, not partially righteous, but righteous!

In reference to Christ Jesus, Titus 2:14 says, “Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.”

He redeemed us from ALL iniquity. Why would a sinner in Christ need purgatory when He redeemed us from ALL iniquity?

“But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption”
—1 Corinthians 1:30

Christ Jesus is our righteousness! Christ Jesus is our SANCTIFICATION! It’s all about HIM!

Hebrews 10:10 says, “By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.”

We are sanctified through Him! And it was done once and it was perfect.

In Galatians 3:3 Paul asks, “Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?”

What good can your sinful flesh really do?

Hebrews 10:14 says, “For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.”

How are we going to be more sanctified than perfect forever? What need be added to perfect?

Colossians 2:9-10 tells us, “For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:”

True born again believers are COMPLETE in HIM.


27 posted on 05/02/2014 6:52:25 AM PDT by .45 Long Colt
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To: madison10

Twice all three were in one place at one time, especially Jesus’ baptism.


Where was the other time?


28 posted on 05/02/2014 7:19:52 AM PDT by rwa265 (Love one another as I have loved you, says the Lord.)
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To: .45 Long Colt

Protestant interpretation of purgatory.

“Me and Jesus got us a good thing going, I don’t need no stinkin’ pergatory or stinkin’ church to tell me what’s all about”. I done been washed in da blood of da lamb! Praise da lawd and pass the biscuits.


29 posted on 05/02/2014 7:41:14 AM PDT by NKP_Vet ("It is foolish and wrong to mourn the men who died;we should thank God that such men lived" ~ Patton)
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To: NKP_Vet
“Me and Jesus got us a good thing going, I don’t need no stinkin’ pergatory or stinkin’ church to tell me what’s all about”. I done been washed in da blood of da lamb! Praise da lawd and pass the biscuits.

What a despicable comment!

30 posted on 05/02/2014 8:06:32 AM PDT by 2nd amendment mama ( www.2asisters.org | Self defense is a basic human right!)
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To: GonzoII

We’ll begin by making clear just what we mean by “Purgatory.” The Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches:


I have no doubt that there is much more about Heaven, Hell, Paradise, purgatory and in general every thing else that we do not know than what we do know about the mystery of God.

After having said that I believe we could write a book about what many Churches teach that is not in the Bible, and that is what separates religion from just pure belief in God.

We have a right to believe it the way we see it but is it right to teach something that may or may not even be there?

Like the rapture, one little sentence where the word rapture is not even there.

On the other hand you can read verse after verse explaining how you have to die to be changed.

Matthew 23
9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

Father and pope has the same meaning, don`t call any one on earth pope but the Catholics call peter pope and not only that but they have had many popes and they also call many fathers.

But what happens when a scripture is plain and to the point? it is ignored.


31 posted on 05/02/2014 8:10:51 AM PDT by ravenwolf
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To: GonzoII
Purgatory is in the Bible
Purgatory: An Objection Answered
Essays for Lent: Purgatory
Of saints, sinners, and purgatorial souls [Catholic Caucus]

First Things - Purgatory for Everyone
What the Church means by Purgatory
Radio Replies Second Volume - Purgatory
Purgatory Exists. And It Burns
The Month of November: Thoughts on the "Last Things"
To Trace All Souls Day (Protestants vs Catholics)
Radio Replies First Volume - Purgatory
The Doctrine of Purgatory [Ecumenical]
The Heroic Act [Catholic-Orthodox Caucus] (Offering everything for the Souls in Purgatory)
MONTLIGEON MIRACLE: HOW PRIEST TURNED INTO 'TRAVELING SALESMAN' OF PURGATORY

IN BRUSH WITH DEATH, PRIEST SHOWN HELL, PURGATORY, DEGREES OF SUFFERING
Praying for the Dead [All Souls Day] (Catholic/Orthodox Caucus)
Purgatory: Service Shop for Heaven [Ecumernical]
Beginning Catholic: Catholic Purgatory: What Does It Mean? [Ecumenical]
OF GUARDIAN ANGELS AND THE ROLE THEY PLAY NOT JUST ON EARTH BUT IN PURGATORY [Catholic Caucus]
IN ANNALS OF SAINTS IS CONVERT'S STRIKING DEDICATION TO THOSE SOULS IN PURGATORY [Catholic Caucus]
Explaining Purgatory from a New Testament Perspective [Ecumenical]
PURIFYING THE SOUL ON EARTH IS WORTH 100X WHAT IT TAKES AFTER [Catholic Caucus] What Happens After Death?
Purgatory
A Brief Catechism for Adults - Lesson 12: Purgatory

The Doctrine of Purgatory
The Early Church Fathers on Purgatory - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus
Required for entrance to Purgatory? Personal question for Cathloic Freepers.
(Protestant) Minister Who Had Near-Death Episode Believes In Purgatory
Straight Answers: What Is Purgatory Like?
Do Catholics Believe in Purgatory?
Purgatory, Indulgences, and the Work of Jesus Christ (Discussion)
Prayer to Release the Souls of Purgatory
The Forgotten Souls in Purgatory
Praying for the dead [Purgatory]

32 posted on 05/02/2014 8:12:20 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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Comment #33 Removed by Moderator

To: HossB86

And he got that through his Baptism of Desire and Baptism of Blood. He asked Christ for forgiveness and Christ forgave him.


34 posted on 05/02/2014 8:48:16 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: RaceBannon

Perhaps not in your Bible since you do not have the entire Bible.


35 posted on 05/02/2014 8:50:21 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Safrguns

**It is also now EMPTY!**

Just what facts to you have to back this up?


36 posted on 05/02/2014 8:51:38 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: boatbums
All who die in God’s grace, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven (1030).

Wrong premise from the get go.

The blood of Christ cleanses us from ALL sin.

1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.

That's what forgiveness is all about.

Romans 8:1-4 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

1 Corinthians 6:9-11 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Purgatory CANNOT cleanse us from sin because ONLY the blood of Jesus is capable of that.

Hebrews 9:22 Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.

There's not one verse of Scripture that says that forgiveness or cleansing come any other way.

37 posted on 05/02/2014 9:12:54 AM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith....)
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To: tiki
Why wasn’t the Bible precise about the Trinity either? That must be wrong too.

Only someone totally unfamiliar with Scripture could think that the Bible is unclear about the Trinity.

38 posted on 05/02/2014 9:19:18 AM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith....)
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To: .45 Long Colt
Christ Jesus is our righteousness! Christ Jesus is our SANCTIFICATION! It’s all about HIM!

Which is why salvation is by grace through faith in Christ SO THAT NO MAN CAN BOAST.

If our works can contribute to our salvation, then it's all about us, how much WE do, how good WE do it, because without OUR input and efforts, the blood of Christ isn't good enough.

That takes the focus off the finished work of Christ on the cross and puts it on us for whatever part we have to play in or salvation. The it's not for the glory of God alone.

39 posted on 05/02/2014 9:23:02 AM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith....)
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To: franky8
Thus, Jesus Christ declares (Matthew 12:32): “And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come.” According to St. Isidore of Seville (Deord. creatur., c. xiv, n. 6) these words prove that in the next life “some sins will be forgiven and purged away by a certain purifying fire.”

That's not Scripture and it does not even come close to saying that/ It's proof of nothing but how deceived someone can become.

St. Augustine also argues “that some sinners are not forgiven either in this world or in the next would not be truly said unless there were other [sinners] who, though not forgiven in this world, are forgiven in the world to come” (City of God XXI.24). The same interpretation is given by Gregory the Great (Dial., IV, xxxix); St. Bede (commentary on this text); St. Bernard (Sermo lxvi in Cantic., n. 11) and other eminent theological writers.

Also not Scripture. Simply opinion pieces by ECFs.

A further argument is supplied by St. Paul in 1 Corinthians 3:11-15: “For other foundation no man can lay, but that which is laid; which is Christ Jesus. Now if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay stubble: Every man’s work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work, of what sort it is. If any man’s work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man’s work burn, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.”

That verse does not speak of the purification of a person from sin. What is being tried by the fire is the persons WORKS. If all their works are burned up, then the person is STILL SAVED. Which I know is contrary to Catholic belief.

40 posted on 05/02/2014 9:29:35 AM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith....)
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To: NKP_Vet
“Me and Jesus got us a good thing going, I don’t need no stinkin’ pergatory or stinkin’ church to tell me what’s all about”. I done been washed in da blood of da lamb! Praise da lawd and pass the biscuits.

Mockery is so befitting of a real man. /s

Galatians 6:7 Do not be deceived: God is not mocked, for whatever one sows, that will he also reap.

Mock God and His Scripture at your own peril.

? And no, no one needs purgatory. You're either saved or not. If you're saved, it's heaven. If you're not, it's hell.

41 posted on 05/02/2014 9:33:23 AM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith....)
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To: 2nd amendment mama

It’s all Catholics have left in their arsenal when they cannot context a teaching out of Scripture.


42 posted on 05/02/2014 9:34:04 AM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith....)
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To: 2nd amendment mama

It’s all Catholics have left in their arsenal when they cannot context a teaching out of Scripture.

Chalk it up as a win.

It says more about the poster than those being mocked.


43 posted on 05/02/2014 9:34:33 AM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith....)
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To: Salvation; HossB86
And he got that through his Baptism of Desire and Baptism of Blood. He asked Christ for forgiveness and Christ forgave him.

Unscriptural baptisms. They are not even alluded to in Scripture. Simply another Catholic construct.

The thief on the cross got into heaven that day because Jesus forgave him, not because of some alleged reason that the Catholic church made up to explain away why it doesn't believe Scripture.

44 posted on 05/02/2014 9:38:38 AM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith....)
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To: Salvation
And he got that through his Baptism of Desire and Baptism of Blood.

Just what facts to you have to back this up?

45 posted on 05/02/2014 9:39:33 AM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith....)
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To: Mechanicos

The common ground for catholics and protestants is quite solid... they tend to have some common worship habits that most don’t think about...I never did until I started to ask, seek and knock...

purgatory and the sacraments and mary and the pope are just mother/daughter squabbles with what they do share..


46 posted on 05/02/2014 9:53:12 AM PDT by delchiante
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To: metmom

“And no, no one needs purgatory. You’re either saved or not. If you’re saved, it’s heaven. If you’re not, it’s hell”

Well so says brotha Jimmah Swaggart and so says metmom.
And you certainly don’t need to go to church, so says brotha
Jimmah Swaggart and so says metmom. Just “believe” and “get born” again! Can I hear an amen? How bout another?? Amen!


47 posted on 05/02/2014 10:03:00 AM PDT by NKP_Vet ("It is foolish and wrong to mourn the men who died;we should thank God that such men lived" ~ Patton)
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To: metmom

Baptism of Desire

http://www.romancatholicism.org/trent-baptism.html

http://ccc.scborromeo.org.master.com/texis/master/search/?sufs=0&q=baptism+of+desire&xsubmit=Search&s=SS


Baptism of Blood

http://ccc.scborromeo.org.master.com/texis/master/search/?sufs=0&q=baptism+of+blood&xsubmit=Search&s=SS

http://www.cmri.org/02-baptism_blood-desire_stalph.html

http://catholicism.about.com/od/baltimorecatechism/f/Question_160_BC.htm


48 posted on 05/02/2014 10:14:48 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: metmom

http://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/HOW2PURG.htm

Because the doctrine of purgatory was held by pre-Christian Jews, post-Christian Jews, Catholics, and Eastern Orthodox, nobody thought of denying it until the Protestant Reformation, and thus only Protestants deny it today.


49 posted on 05/02/2014 10:19:13 AM PDT by NKP_Vet ("It is foolish and wrong to mourn the men who died;we should thank God that such men lived" ~ Patton)
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To: Salvation

Opinion pieces by Catholics to rationalize things that have no Scriptural support are meaningless.

There is no God breathed, Holy Spirit inspired Scripture that teaches that anything but the blood of Jesus cleanses us from sin.


50 posted on 05/02/2014 12:05:54 PM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith....)
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