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What Would Jesus Do On the Death Penalty?
http://the-american-catholic.com ^ | May 4, 2014 | Donald R. McClarey

Posted on 05/05/2014 6:09:42 AM PDT by NKP_Vet

I always find questions that begin “What Would Jesus Do?” rather obnoxious for two reasons. First, because they are usually posed by people absolutely certain that Jesus follows their views in lockstep, and second, because Christ of course is God and the mind of the All-Mighty is unknowable to us. As Lincoln put it so well in his Second Inaugural:

Each looked for an easier triumph, and a result less fundamental and astounding. Both read the same Bible and pray to the same God, and each invokes His aid against the other. It may seem strange that any men should dare to ask a just God’s assistance in wringing their bread from the sweat of other men’s faces, but let us judge not, that we be not judged. The prayers of both could not be answered. That of neither has been answered fully. The Almighty has His own purposes.

So questions that begin “What Would Jesus Do”?, strike me as presumptuous at best and blasphemous at worst.

(Excerpt) Read more at the-american-catholic.com ...


TOPICS: General Discusssion; Moral Issues; Religion & Politics
KEYWORDS:

1 posted on 05/05/2014 6:09:42 AM PDT by NKP_Vet
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To: NKP_Vet

Well, the death penalty did exist in Jesus’ homeland and I don’t recall him specifically condemning it.


2 posted on 05/05/2014 6:11:42 AM PDT by circlecity
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To: NKP_Vet

Lots of death penalty happening to real murdering criminals going on in Jesus’ day, and I think the only thing he ever said on it was:

....crickets....


3 posted on 05/05/2014 6:13:43 AM PDT by xzins ( Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! Those who truly support our troops pray for victory!)
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To: NKP_Vet

“What Would Jesus Do?”

The question that too many fail to ask is What Did Jesus Do? That is the critical question. The answer of course is he died for sinners.


4 posted on 05/05/2014 6:14:32 AM PDT by Gamecock (The covenant is a stunning blend of law and love. (TK))
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To: circlecity

Good point, but judging our lives against that of Jesus Christ is at the basis of being a Christian.


5 posted on 05/05/2014 6:15:25 AM PDT by 1010RD (First, Do No Harm)
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To: NKP_Vet

If someone who actually suffered the death penalty never condemned it, what does that tell you?


6 posted on 05/05/2014 6:20:33 AM PDT by Buckeye McFrog
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To: NKP_Vet

Since Jesus received the death penalty himself and didn’t protest the government’s action, one can assume he thought it was a legitimate form of punishment.


7 posted on 05/05/2014 6:20:56 AM PDT by MNnice
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To: NKP_Vet

God ordered the death penalty for agag as well as a whole lot of evil canaanites.

God is in the business of protecting the innocent, not the wicked.


8 posted on 05/05/2014 6:24:10 AM PDT by what's up (su)
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To: NKP_Vet

What basis is there to believe Christ Jesus would be at odds with God the Father on any question?


9 posted on 05/05/2014 6:24:19 AM PDT by .45 Long Colt
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To: NKP_Vet

Well, presumptuous is a pretty good description if given that the person asking does not go to the source.

Jesus Christ gave us all the infotmation we need—both old and new testaments. We do have to read them however.

I believe there is not one unanswered question regarding the affairs of men that were not addressed by Jesus Christ, the Word of God.

Oh, it is a fading memory, but it seems there was once a nation that was founded upon the instruction manual provided.

America. Just one. It was exceptional, one cannot read the foundational underpinnings and not hear the echoes of the Word.

Obama Osama is a blasphemous man, he taunts both God and God’s people, calls abortion a blessing from God.

Well... I still say “God Bless America”. That He will not is a given. You betray God and you lose His Grace. You blaspheme God as a leader and you lose everything.

Pray this. God forgive us our sins, give us repentance and a broken heart that you will know our sorrows are deep, we each are wretched and hopeless without You. We serve You, we are flawed and our best efforts are as filthy rags. Cover us in our shame we pray. In your Son’s holy and pure name, Jesus Christ we pray.

Amen.


10 posted on 05/05/2014 6:25:28 AM PDT by the anti-mahdi
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To: circlecity

The same applies to slavery.


11 posted on 05/05/2014 6:28:31 AM PDT by Natufian (t)
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To: Natufian
"The same applies to slavery."

And......?

12 posted on 05/05/2014 6:31:09 AM PDT by circlecity
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To: NKP_Vet

Jesus believed in the validity of the death penalty, enough that he allowed it to be performed on himself.


13 posted on 05/05/2014 6:35:02 AM PDT by dangerdoc
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To: 1010RD

My main issue with this supposedly good question is that the answer is this: Jesus did what ever the Father told Him to do at that time, in that place, in that situation. And it wasn’t always the same. He healed 6 different blind men 6 different ways.

It is the ultimate arrogance for one to assume that with the broken, sinful, limited human mind WE on our own can figure out what Jesus would do in every situation. It’s ludicrous to think that! AND, if we try it, we will most certainly be WRONG almost all the time.

That’s why God gave us His Holy Spirit - to hear and know what He is saying, in that time, that moment, that place. As He is infinite, there may be an infinite number of possibilites - which however will not generally contradict the truth He has given us in scripture. Yes, “we have the mind of Christ..”, but that is only as we totally yield ourselves to Him, willing to do His will and not our own, knowing how easily we can chose our own way and think it is “spiritual” or “scriptural”.

But the problem here is our INTERPRETATION of scripture may be.....wrong! The scribes, lawyers and Pharisees of Jesus time were absolute that their interpretation of scripture was the correct one.

Jesus comes along, the incarnate Son of God, and in much of what He did, totally contradicted their “correct” interpretation of scripture....as He listened to His Father’s voice and obeyed Him in every detail. Thus, He was a blasphemer who had to be killed.

Is my understanding of scripture totally correct? Of course not. I’m 69 and much of my more mature years has been spent repenting of things I knew to be absolutely true when young. Not about the person and work of our Lord Jesus, but about the peripherals.

“My sheep hear my voice..” We should never try to do what Jesus did as to His decisions or actions. Never. But we should always try, in meekness and humility, try to do what He always did: hear what the Father is saying to us in that time, in that place, in that moment.

Sometimes He will surprise us - just as Jesus so often surprised the 12 that spent so much time with Him........

And the self-righteous and religious around us will often react to us the very same way they did to Jesus.........Luke 18:9ff


14 posted on 05/05/2014 6:35:53 AM PDT by Arlis
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To: NKP_Vet

“What would JESUS do?”

I suspect that question originated with atheists.


15 posted on 05/05/2014 6:38:05 AM PDT by ryan71 (The Partisans)
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To: Natufian

Different definition of slavery then. Most of it was voluntary to work off debts.

It was nothing like the chattel slavery that you’re thinking of.

It IS, however, a comparison that anti-God leftists use to “judge” God and His Word.


16 posted on 05/05/2014 6:38:31 AM PDT by MrB (The difference between a Humanist and a Satanist - the latter admits whom he's working for)
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To: dangerdoc

Absolutely great point.

The penalty for sin is death. Eternal death.


17 posted on 05/05/2014 6:39:07 AM PDT by MrB (The difference between a Humanist and a Satanist - the latter admits whom he's working for)
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To: NKP_Vet

Jesus was a devout Jew (as well as the son of God), and as Dennis Prager has noted many times (I’ll do my best here) the only crime mentioned in all five books of the Torah is murder that is a crime punishable by death. Also, the commandment so often misinterpreted because of its mistranslation from the original Hebrew is “Thou shalt not murder”.


18 posted on 05/05/2014 6:40:52 AM PDT by glennaro
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To: NKP_Vet

No worries about the first death it’s the second death that counts.


19 posted on 05/05/2014 6:41:34 AM PDT by the_daug
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To: NKP_Vet

I don’t recall ever asking my government to be my Savior. Government has a very different role to fill. “Render unto Caesar what is Ceasar’s”... ought that not include the responsibilities that belong to government, along with the taxes?


20 posted on 05/05/2014 6:46:16 AM PDT by Teacher317 (We have now sunk to a depth at which restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men)
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To: NKP_Vet

What would Jesus do?

He would use it to his advantage to bring the opportunity for salvation to all mankind . . . .


21 posted on 05/05/2014 6:46:26 AM PDT by RatRipper (The political left are utterly evil and corrupt)
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To: NKP_Vet

Probably the same thing he did about the laws that governed Rome. Nothing, or teach his disciples to obey them to the extent that obedience to God permitted.


22 posted on 05/05/2014 6:54:11 AM PDT by demshateGod (The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.)
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To: what's up
God is in the business of protecting the innocent, not the wicked.

So are liberals, but their view of reality is upside down, and the wicked are protected, while the innocent are throw to the wolves to fit that view.

23 posted on 05/05/2014 6:58:09 AM PDT by Calvin Locke
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To: NKP_Vet
Christ stated without equivocation in Mark 13:23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.

When Christ made this declaration the only Written WORD from the Heavenly Father on this planet was what is commonly called the Old Testament.

Christ made God's law, (and penalties for the transgression of said laws) given directly to Moses, one and the same as the Gospel. Some will wrongly claim the law is no longer in effect. This is impossible. The first commandment is ......Thou shalt have no other gods before Me.

These that claim the law has been fulfilled, because as it is also Written the law does not save. Salvation will not be offered to those who have other gods before Him. Or any that habitually break the other nine, because they are not believers in Jesus. By the way which law(s) did Jesus break?

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, (that means die) but have everlasting life.

There is no honesty in claiming a ‘belief’ in Jesus and then doing the exact opposite of what God instructed, claiming a visit from the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is not going to send an opposite message than that God gave Himself.

God required the return of the soul of premeditated murders to Him. But then religion decided they could do things better and treat murderers just like the religious folk did when they wanted to murder Christ. They demanded Barabbas be freed in exchange for the life of Christ.

As it is Written there is nothing new under the ‘sun’.

24 posted on 05/05/2014 7:09:11 AM PDT by Just mythoughts (Jesus said Luke 17:32 Remember Lot's wife.)
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To: NKP_Vet

A man who finds the question “What Would Jesus Do?”to be “presumptuous”, “blasphemous”, and “obnoxious”, needs to quit trying to write Christian articles and go get a job that involves rolling up his sleeves to do physical work because, obviously, his gifts do not lie in his tongue or brain.

Why? Because the apostles gave us instructions from God to follow Christ’s example:

1 John 2:6
He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

1 Peter 2:21
For to this you were called, because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps.

And Christ Himself told us to be like Him:

Matthew 10:25 a
It is enough for a disciple that he be like his teacher, and a servant like his master.

In order to obey these commandments, we must learn what Jesus is like, remember what we have learned, and do things as He would do them.


25 posted on 05/05/2014 7:17:28 AM PDT by unlearner (You will never come to know that which you do not know until you first know that you do not know it.)
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To: NKP_Vet
He already died on a cross isn't that enough
26 posted on 05/05/2014 7:19:07 AM PDT by mware
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To: NKP_Vet
"What would Jesus do" is the wrong question. He was God and I'm not. The right question is, "What would Jesus have me do?"
27 posted on 05/05/2014 7:28:29 AM PDT by JoeFromSidney (Book: Resistance to Tyranny. Buy from Amazon.)
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To: NKP_Vet
The Bible gives explicit laws for death. Jesus said He didn't come to change the Law, but to fulfill it. That means to "pay the price". There is nothing wrong with us changing whatever penalty we want to from the Biblical price to an agreed upon price. Ergo, it isn't necessary to stone an adulteress, but adultery should always be forbidden in society.

What we see today is sodomy being celebrated rather than forbidden written into law. Sodomy is, and always has been a sin, but as long as the "sin" was kept in the dark, we haven't executed the perps for 200 years. Leviticus 18:22 tells us what God thinks of sodomy and the penalty for accepting it in the country is loss of your country. Murder has always had a death penalty except for the short period recently overturned by the SCOTUS. God recommended the penalties in the OT to solve societal ills, but we are not bound to kill a child that back talks his father. The problem lies when you don't agree with God that a sin is a sin. When you decide murdering your child is legal if it's in the womb, but a child is not executed for attacking his parents, it shows the prejudice against God's reasoning. If a homosexual was shunned and kept in the closet, I don't think God would punish the country that decided to change the law, but accepting sodomy into the society is grounds for God's intervention, ergo the Sodom and Gomorrah account. Most of the rest of the admonishments against homosexuals had to do with their own sinfulness and repentance, such as found in 1st Cor where Paul said "such WERE some of you". The sin could be forgiven if they repented and remained chaste or switched to heterosexual relationships. The problem remains the judgement that is carried out on the LAND that accepts sodomy. We can repent, but the land won't and must be judged. No one would suggest that we accept thieves into our midst, yet many of the death penalties in the Bible listed by Moses from God have been overturned in the modern age. If we wrote a law that said "blacks" should get the death penalty for a crime but whites should get prison time for the same crime, there would be an uproar. How is a defenseless child worth less legally than a child out of the womb? The injustice found in our laws for individuals I believe anger God as we move away from His civil structure as to what is a crime and what isn't.

Jesus came to fulfill GOD'S Law, not man's. He made little comment on man's law and appeared to refuse to challenge whatever the Romans had on the books at the time. He didn't refuse to pay Roman taxes, but had the advantage of getting money from a fish. This is why slavery is written about in the NT. God didn't take a position on it's legality, but gave a Christian's response to the treatment of slaves or the response a slave should have to his owner. This is how a Christian should treat a slave should they ever find themselves owning one. Obviously Jesus came to set the captive free, so I don't see Adam and Eve owning slaves. The reality was and had been for thousands of years that slaves were taken after battle from both sides and rules were written.

The old ruse that God wrote the 6th Commandment to stop the death penalty for murder is just a non believer's construct. A better translation of the law should have said "Thou shalt not murder", or "Thou shalt not shed innocent blood". As it is translated now, we have weirdo's that won't step on a cockroach, but will abort their child.

God measures the heart, so giving mercy to a criminal is not unlawful, but accepting the sin is an abomination to Him. A recent example was Karla Faye Tucker. She murdered people with pick ax and admitted it and received the death penalty. After several years in prison, she received Jesus and became a lay preacher in prison and brought many to repentance. The law said she was to die, but many believed she was no longer a threat to anyone and asked for mercy. The state had the right to execute her, but it could also show mercy. She was eventually executed due to politics. At the same time, murderers are grated clemency all the time without any repentance. In the end, we all meet God and are judged for our lives. The irony about Ms. Tucker was she was a repented killer, but the woman and man she killed were in the middle of committing adultery when she killed them. It would be ironic if God judged the victim and welcomed the murderer. If we received the "justice" that we should get, we are all doomed. Mercy is always desired, but Grace is unspeakable joy. That's why we sing about it as Christians.

28 posted on 05/05/2014 7:51:03 AM PDT by chuckles
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To: glennaro

(I’ll do my best here) the only crime mentioned in all five books of the Torah is murder that is a crime punishable by death.


There are many crimes in the old testament punishable by death, including homosexuality.

Lev 20
13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death;


29 posted on 05/05/2014 10:02:36 AM PDT by ravenwolf
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To: glennaro

In the case of adultery, we always hear about the woman, but the man could be punished also.


30 posted on 05/05/2014 10:26:13 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: MrB

There was plenty of chattel slavery.


31 posted on 05/05/2014 10:48:07 AM PDT by Natufian (t)
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To: NKP_Vet

If I recall correctly, Jesus said to “render unto Caesar”.


32 posted on 05/05/2014 10:53:12 AM PDT by JimRed (Excise the cancer before it kills us; feed & water the Tree of Liberty! TERM LIMITS NOW & FOREVER!)
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To: 1010RD

God the father rendered the punishment of death upon his sinless son, for the sins of us all. Christ was the fulfillment of the law...including those laws that prescribed death for the transgressions of those laws. His death did not negate the laws that mandated death for those who shed innocent blood, whether by the Noah covenant or the Mosaiv covenant. Governments are given the sword by God so that his vengeance is wreaked amongst the nations. So the death penalty still stands for those who do gruesome crimes!


33 posted on 05/05/2014 10:54:14 AM PDT by mdmathis6
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To: chuckles

“She was eventually executed due to politics”

She was a powerful witness for Christ in a prison full of lost hopeless people and was successful in gaining many converts? No wonder Satan had to have her eliminated, it was “bad for business”. Politics, indeed!


34 posted on 05/05/2014 11:08:20 AM PDT by mdmathis6
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To: NKP_Vet
"What would Jesus do?"

The last refuge of the brainless...

35 posted on 05/05/2014 11:42:45 AM PDT by publius911 ( At least Nixon had the good g race to resign!)
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To: xzins

Essentially, the government, and authorities over a man are appointed by God; so in essence, God has spoken, and has allowed the death penalty to be adjudicated, rendered, and carried out.

Now, that’s just the earthly version; the spiritual version is one in which Jesus has paid the price, and we can live with both Him and God for eternity. Or not - depending on your point of view.


36 posted on 05/05/2014 11:50:55 AM PDT by ro_dreaming (Chesterton, 'Christianity has not been tried and found wanting. ItÂ’s been found hard and not tried')
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To: chuckles

If any condemned killer ever deserved clemency it was Karla Faye Tucker. She had the misfortune of being on death row in Texas, where if you are condemned to die you die. She actually met with George W. Bush and asked him to spare her. About a year after she was executed he was on Larry King Live talking about meeting her. When asked what she said to him, he said “she made a little prayer with her hands and said “please”. He smirked while telling the story.

http://www.itbn.org/index/detail/lib/Networks/sublib/TBN/ec/54NG8wMzpQ_yOtxgkr33OSPLYKkOLzn0


37 posted on 05/05/2014 12:25:13 PM PDT by NKP_Vet ("It is foolish and wrong to mourn the men who died;we should thank God that such men lived" ~ Patton)
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To: NKP_Vet
Deu 19:11-13 "But if anyone hates his neighbor and lies in wait for him and attacks him and strikes him fatally so that he dies, and he flees into one of these cities, then the elders of his city shall send and take him from there, and hand him over to the avenger of blood, so that he may die. Your eye shall not pity him, but you shall purge the guilt of innocent blood from Israel, so that it may be well with you.

The rules haven't changed. We simply want to pity the people who commit hideous crimes. It has always been that way and we are warned against it.

38 posted on 05/05/2014 5:53:19 PM PDT by HarleyD ("... letters are weighty, but his .. presence is weak, and his speech of no account.")
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To: HarleyD

If God forgave the apostle Paul he can forgive anyone! David was also a murderer.


39 posted on 05/05/2014 6:10:46 PM PDT by NKP_Vet ("It is foolish and wrong to mourn the men who died;we should thank God that such men lived" ~ Patton)
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To: NKP_Vet
There were several problems with the Tucker death sentence that were out of the norm. Bush was known to be a "tough on crime" kinda guy, so she had to overcome that which was a tall hurdle, and yes, Texas is a tough on crime state. If a woman bats her eyes and asks for clemency Bush would have looked weak to many and many Texans that knew the case were not very interested in mercy for her. If you heard or read about the case, she wasn't a very sympathetic figure.

The problems started with real Christians. They bonded with her spirit. If you have the Holy Spirit, you can tell if this was just another "jail house Jesus" convert. I have been around many and believe me, it's tougher than you might think. While in jail, they have little more to do than read the Bible. Many are more knowledgeable than the average local pastors. If you meet her, there was something there that you would know it was real. She had said that if the state wanted to, she was OK with taking her punishment because she would be with Jesus. She however had built up quite a ministry in prison and had many prisoners depending on her for their spiritual healing. She married a local pastor while behind bars and they really loved each other. It became quite evident that allowing her to remain alive in jail for life was not that big of a stretch for most politicians. Dubya didn't really have the power to force the parole board to grant clemency, but we were all hoping he would at least put his 2 cents in favor for her. The problem there is always 40 more heinous criminals would line up behind her and say they deserved mercy because they met Jesus or Allah or turned Wiccan or something.

The pressure was pretty great for her to be put to death. The husband of the woman that was killed was adamant he would never forgive her. The brother of the dead woman had forgiven her and was on Karla's side. It was so ironic it was almost humorous when the victims husband was saying when Karla got to heaven with his wife, she would beat the hell out of Karla. You had to dig a little to find out the victim was sleeping around on her husband and I was wondering how a murderer like Karla would end up in the same place as an adulterer. I thought then, just like Jesus to throw some irony in a situation like this. The murderer is in heaven and the victim is in hell. I guess we won't know till we get there.

Just as kind of a side note, I think,( meaning I'm not sure), I lived about mile from the father of the victim. I installed his phones when he built a house where I lived. He stated his daughter had been killed by a pick ax and wondered if I had heard about it. I assumed it was the Tucker murders. I guess someone else could have been killed by a pick ax, but I wasn't really interested in talking very long. He built a humongous ugly home that resembles a jail. He was a millionaire that invented the goose neck trailer or maybe he just built goose neck trailers by the thousands, I'm not sure, but he was filthy rich. The home he built was big and square so he could have young boys over to party with. He divorced his wife and thought boys were better. He was in his 60's. He had a 40 car parking area covered so the license plates were hidden. A couple of years after Karla died he was found murdered in the home. He had kidnapped a couple of homeless boys and held them there for sex toys. One got loose and found his shotgun and waited for him to come home. Shot him in the face and left the house.

The house cost $3 million to build but couldn't be sold for $300k. They finally bulldozed it. It was named "Murder Mansion" by local folklore.

40 posted on 05/06/2014 1:06:34 AM PDT by chuckles
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To: chuckles

I’m for the death penalty. It should have never been abolished as it has been today....not to mention the lengthy appeals which serve no one other than the criminal.


41 posted on 05/06/2014 1:08:41 AM PDT by caww
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To: caww

We still have it in Texas. When I was young, we had it for rape. Now that women have been liberated, we call it sexual assault and it’s treated like somebody got beat up. The old southern ideas about how to treat a woman have been swept under the liberal rug. Course, many of the old rapes involved blacks with white women and trees were involved. I guess they figure the woman would heal up and forget about it so they lowered the penalty.


42 posted on 05/06/2014 1:16:49 AM PDT by chuckles
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To: chuckles

Every state in the union use to have a crime called “assault on a woman”. Every state in the union used to have a crime called “crime against nature”. That was in a land far, far away. Now we treat women, EXACTLY LIKE A MAN, and treat degenerate homosexual predators as normal behavior. The next crime to be done away with will be “sex with a minor”, or “bestiality”. Both will be recognized as perfectly normal behavior in this immoral brave new world. Jesus weeps.


43 posted on 05/06/2014 8:47:48 AM PDT by NKP_Vet ("It is foolish and wrong to mourn the men who died;we should thank God that such men lived" ~ Patton)
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To: chuckles

Am leaving soon but wanted to answer your post....

We’ve done such an injustice to people who have survived criminal assault, or lost family members. It’s terrible the suffering they go through while they watch our courts extend “swift justice” for years and years.

The criminal element today knows exactly how far they can push the boundaries because these are either non-existent or made of rubber and moves from one moment to the next.

Our nation today is upside down..right is wrong and wrong is right...bad is good and good is bad. A nation without the carrying through the laws..rather laws are made, tweaked and designed to protect the criminal element.


44 posted on 05/06/2014 12:42:48 PM PDT by caww
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To: caww
I'm wondering if everyone here has seen the Youtube video on the Harbingers by Johnathan Cahn. There are several of them there and some are better than others. The point is America have been cursed now because of 50 years of abortion and now gay marriage. I could give you a bunch of verses on it but start with Leviticus 18:22 where God promises to vomit us out of the land we defile. Then 9-11 happened and a modern prophet drew a connection to Isaiah 9:10. It makes quite a case that America is finished if we don't repent. We haven't repented. Then the market crash in 2008 on the exact day Jews were to forgive debts every 7 years. If the prophesy is true we can expect another punishment in Sept 2015, 7 years later than 2008. Then we have the "4 Blood Moons" right on Jewish Feast days ending in 2015.

If we don't repent and change our ways back to what is acceptable to God, America is finished, IMO. If people call themselves Christian, they can't just brush over the facts saying, well that was long ago for someone else. Killing babies and letting murderers live is calling evil good. Allowing sodomites to marry is calling evil good. We are reviled as haters, which is calling good evil. It's time to decide if you are willing to follow God or be the one He says "I never knew you". The lights should crawl out from under the baskets and make it to the top of the hill. As Christian soldiers, we seem to be laying in the bottom of a muddy foxhole with our helmets pulled down over our eyes and our swords sheathed. God is shouting to take the hill and here we set.

No matter if you believe this or not, if Hillary get elected America is finished. You will not believe what's in store if we survive 8 years of this for another 8 years of the same.

It's time to figure out what Jesus would do and then do it. It's not enough to talk about it. Everywhere in verse we read that we are to be doer's of the Word and not just hearer's. If you aren't being called a fanatic fundamentalist Jesus freak, your probably not doing it right.

45 posted on 05/06/2014 2:06:46 PM PDT by chuckles
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To: NKP_Vet
Every break of a commandment brings down judgment. God forgave both the apostle Paul and David, but both suffered life long consequences for their actions.

Earthly judgment of individuals is to forestall God's judgment of nations. When we cease to execute justice, God will intervene against the nation.

Doing kindness should never be misconstrued as justice.

46 posted on 05/06/2014 3:23:10 PM PDT by HarleyD ("... letters are weighty, but his .. presence is weak, and his speech of no account.")
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To: mdmathis6
God the father rendered the punishment of death upon his sinless son

I don't know that I agree with that.

47 posted on 05/11/2014 6:21:14 PM PDT by 1010RD (First, Do No Harm)
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To: 1010RD

2 Corinthians 5:21 says: “For our sake [God] made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.”

Obviously, the question and answer of sin and redemption from sin revolves around the death of Jesus and his resurrection. Since the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one and were always one, one more looks at Jesus as that sacrifice that cleanses his children from unrighteousness, making them acceptable in the sight of the Father. Christ died so that the wrath of the Father could be turned away from those humans who sought salvation, acknowledging their sin, believing in their hearts that the Father had raised the son from the grave.

The wages of sin are death, but the gift of God is eternal life. Christ took the consequences of our sin upon himself, in full co-operation with the will of the Father. So is it proper to say God poured out his wrath upon the son, you ask? I guess it has become a kind of short hand answer over the years to the more accurate explanation above based on 2Corinthians 5:21. I firmly believe that to the extent that the fullness of the Godhead could have died “as a ransom for many” as the scripture says, it did so on the cross. Christ cried out as many a dying man has done so when his flesh is failing, in despair, expressing feelings of abandonment(My God why have you forsaken me)...yet he was not alone since Father, Son, and Holy Spirit were all, one and all the same in that same consciousness, purpose and Commitment. Do you not think the Ark angels that support the throne of the Father did not note the pain of the Father? Were not the elements shaken, the light of day darkened, the earth quaking at the death of Christ? Was not the temple veil rent in two? Let us mourn God in flesh....now let us rejoice in the risen God in flesh. In death, Christ has taken death captive...why do all this? Because God had loved us with a wild raging love, this fallen race, ruled and scorned by demons and hated by Satan, so much so that he sent the Son, who the Bible states, willingly came for our sakes. Was he not God who could command legions of angels and by the power of God raise Lazarus from the grave? Yet was he also not a man who sweated great drops like blood at the thought of his death? Father,Son, and Spirit all at once were sharing Christ’s consciousness at the end when he said “It is finished”. What utter love compelled God to do this for us? We shall never be able to fathom it!

Perhaps it may be the epitome of accuracy to say that Jesus became sin for us so that the fullness of the Godhead, by pouring out the wrath for our sin upon itself/themself(yes..THEMSELF!... deliberate misspelling), might bring about the means for the redemption of our souls.

Or simply John 3:16-18!16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.


48 posted on 05/12/2014 3:29:33 AM PDT by mdmathis6 (It was never Bush's fault...Spock's messing with red matter was what screwed us all up!)
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