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Why The Revelation Was Written In Symbolic Language
Princeton Theological Seminary Library ^ | 1886 | Israel P Warren

Posted on 05/19/2014 9:41:02 PM PDT by PhilipFreneau

Why The Revelation Was Written In Symbolic Language
By Israel P Warren
Excerpted from his book: The Book of Revelation: An Exposition
1886, pp.30-34

   If we have found in the declared scope of [the Revelation] a key to its contents, and the purpose for which it was written, we may find also a clue to its peculiarities of composition, so unlike those of the other books of the New Testament.

   The "things" of special importance to the infant churches, which at that time were "shortly to come to pass," were comprehended in that persecution which, having already broken out under Nero, was destined to extend over a period of two and a half centuries, till the time of Constantine the Great. I have stated the reasons for believing that the object of this book was to comfort and strengthen the churches under this persecution, by predicting the destruction of their persecutors, the ultimate triumph of Christianity over all its foes, and the blessed rewards that would be conferred on the martyrs who should remain faithful unto death.

   With such a purpose in view, it is obvious, in considering the circumstances of the case, that two things were indispensable in its manner of composition, viz., concealment of its meaning from the enemies of the church, and a disclosure of that meaning to it and its friends.

   1. It must be written in such a way that its meaning would be concealed from the persecuting powers . To have written out in clear and express terms a paper of such a purport as we believe this to be, would have been an act of undoubted treason against the imperial government of Rome. To have predicted the overthrow of its emperors, the defeat of their plans, the downfall of the state religion and its splendid array of temples, priests, and rites, and the conquest by the hated sect of Nazarenes of the imperial throne and of the world, would have been taken as an insult to Roman authority and Roman pride, which could be expiated only by death. To have had in possession such a document, much more, to have read it in the public assemblies, and to be known as making it the ground of their common expectations and hopes, would have made the entire Christian body criminal. The highest offense known to Roman law was the crimen lœsœ majestatis —the crime of wounded majesty. None was pursued with such relentless fury; none punished with such pitiless severity.

   Nor could there have been any successful concealment of such a book. In those degenerate days of the empire, no trade was pursued more industriously than that of informer (delator ). Emissaries and spies of the tyrants thronged every province and every city, ready to report whatever could be construed into an offense against the emperor, and bring a reward for the informer. False brethren and apostates would have been found, who, for gain or personal safety would have betrayed a secret of such magnitude as this. In a word, the bare statement of the case shows that if such a document as we have supposed was to be written at all, it must be in such a way as to be unintelligible to those whose ruin it predicted. Suppose, during our late rebellion, a well-formed plan had been laid to rescue our suffering soldiers from Libby Prison, and a message was to be sent them announcing that purpose, to strengthen their fortitude and secure their co-operation in its execution, how obvious is it that that communication must have been concealed from the enemy—written in cypher, or by some other device made unintelligible, if it should fall into their hands.

   Hence, chiefly, as I regard it, the use of symbols and enigmatic utterances in this Book of Revelation. We shall see presently something of the nature and sources of these, and how remote both were from the knowledge of the pagan Romans of that day. In their pride of metropolitan culture and position, the Romans looked down with contempt on what they regarded the unintelligible superstitions of the thousand sects which filled the empire. It would, then, be nothing surprising nor improper if that contempt should be taken advantage of to be made a screen for so dangerous a book as this. Let it be shaped in enigmatic forms; let it make use of cabalistic names and numbers; of sealed scrolls, now to be opened and read, now to be eaten; let it be full of visions of impossible beasts and locusts and serpents, of dark shapes from Tartarus, and of bright celestials coming like Homer's gods from heaven to execute incomprehensible errands; of dirges over dead cities, and peans of victory over phantom foes, — and it might well be assured that even treason itself would be safe in such a garb as this. Nay, there might be uses of such a method for the church herself, in withholding from those of her own members, who for want of spiritual perception or discretion were not fit to be trusted, so important secrets as these. There were in all ancient religions mysteries , which were fully known only to the initiated—the innermost truths or rites of their faith— which were prudentially withheld from those not qualified to know them. So Christ, because of their lack of spiritual capacity, taught the people only in parables, and Paul fed his spiritual children with milk and not with meat, because they were not able to bear it.

   Such, then, as it appears to me, were, substantially, the reasons why this Book of Revelation was written in the manner it was,—one which from its example is frequently denominated the "Apocalyptic style."

****

The book is available for download at the Princeton Theological Seminary Library, via https://archive.org/details/bookofrevelation00warr

Philip


TOPICS: Theology
KEYWORDS: bible; revelation

1 posted on 05/19/2014 9:41:02 PM PDT by PhilipFreneau
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To: PhilipFreneau
the reasons why this Book of Revelation was written in the manner it was,

Is it possible that it was written that way because the author was tripping on hallucinogenics?

Which is not meant to discredit his prophecy. Some ancient history refers to the use of drug induced trances to communicate with a higher power.

2 posted on 05/19/2014 9:56:18 PM PDT by UCANSEE2 (Lost my tagline on Flight MH370. Sorry for the inconvenience.)
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To: PhilipFreneau

John had escaped to Patmos to write. The language is purposely written this way because of the active persecutions that were occurring.


3 posted on 05/19/2014 10:02:13 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: UCANSEE2
Revelation is a fine example of apocalyptic writings of the inter testamentary period, roughly 200 BC to 200 AD. If you follow the Bible as a record of Man's growing understanding of his relationship to God, from ancient origins to the New Testament, you find a trend from angels as messengers and actors to visions interpreted by angels, such as in Daniel, Zechariah and now John at Patmos. It is understood to be resistance literature, exhorting Christians to stand fast against persecution.
4 posted on 05/19/2014 10:02:21 PM PDT by hinckley buzzard
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To: PhilipFreneau
Introduction to the Book of Revelation
5 posted on 05/19/2014 10:04:20 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: PhilipFreneau

It’s written that way because that is how God has revealed it to man. There are reasons for that method, which He Provides.


6 posted on 05/19/2014 10:11:33 PM PDT by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: UCANSEE2

The books entitled Matthew, Mark and Luke all quoted Jesus as saying that those to whom He was speaking “would not taste death” until they saw His kingdom.
At least they made sense, even if they were flat wrong. Revelations, as you say, was either written by a man in his cups and/or completely off his rocker.


7 posted on 05/19/2014 10:28:01 PM PDT by tumblindice (America's founding fathers: all armed conservatives)
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To: tumblindice

That was in reference to the Mount of Transfiguration.

Where, having never met Moses nor Elijah from hundreds and hundreds of years before them, instantly recognized them for who they were.


8 posted on 05/19/2014 10:39:32 PM PDT by F15Eagle (1Jn4:15;5:4-5,11-13;Mt27:50-54;Mk15:33-34;Jn3:17-18,6:69,11:25,14:6,20:31;Ro10:8-11;1Tm2:5-6;Ti3:4-7)
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To: tumblindice

You misinterpret the passage. In Matthew 24:32 (and in Mark and Luke as you mentioned) Jesus spoke the parable of the fig tree, which represents Israel. It is the generation that witnesses the rebirth of the nation of Israel that he is speaking of when he says “this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.”


9 posted on 05/19/2014 10:47:22 PM PDT by vrwc1
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To: PhilipFreneau
The problem with Revelation (no 's) is that most people don't read it for themselves. They think it is beyond them and are too willing to adopt someone else's understanding. This author would have us believe that Revelation is "symbolic". Some of it is, but most of it isn't.

The following Revelation Sermon Series will prompt you to read Revelation for yourself. It is a fascinating adventure into the Word of God as scripture is used to interpret scripture.

The Book of Revelation: Chapter 1 of 22

10 posted on 05/20/2014 3:03:37 AM PDT by nonsporting
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To: nonsporting

A lot of the things described by John in Revelation were most likely attempts to describe the horrors of modern warfare by a man who had never seen the modern implements of war. I think he described things as best he could as far as he comprehended them in the language of his time.


11 posted on 05/20/2014 3:24:53 AM PDT by Twinkie (John 3:16)
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To: tumblindice

No John was not off his rocker.

he did not make the visions up...Jesus showed them to him. John was a passive participant. all John did was write them down.

The vision does nothing but glorify Christ . The persecuted saints needed it.


12 posted on 05/20/2014 4:29:28 AM PDT by what's up (sun)
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To: what's up

Exactly, it is the revelation of Christ, of who he really is and what he’s going to do when he returns to redeem his own and set up his Kingdom - and what he’s going to do to his enemies. Most make weird comments about the book (often calling it “Revelations”) because they don’t know the rest of the Bible or it’s author either.


13 posted on 05/20/2014 4:40:38 AM PDT by Lake Living
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To: UCANSEE2

Hippie fantasy nonsense.


14 posted on 05/20/2014 5:02:19 AM PDT by ifinnegan
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To: tumblindice

What’s your excuse?


15 posted on 05/20/2014 5:04:47 AM PDT by ifinnegan
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To: Lake Living

thanks,

The unveiling (singular) is what God gave to his son who rendered it into signs by his angel for his servant John to record,

“The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John” Revelation 1:1

and I cannot recall over the years the number of times someone uses the word ‘revelations’ plural and then whatever follows from them shows you they’ve never read it, or completely do not understand it, when someone uses that word, i generally stop reading as its always not only wrong, but completely out in left field,


16 posted on 05/20/2014 5:17:49 AM PDT by captmar-vell
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To: nonsporting

>>>This author would have us believe that Revelation is “symbolic”. Some of it is, but most of it isn’t.<<<

I personally believe, and have for nearly forty years, that after the first 3 chapters, it is all symbolic. So far, no one—no scholar or laymen—has provided any reason for me to believe otherwise.

Philip


17 posted on 05/20/2014 5:26:51 AM PDT by PhilipFreneau
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To: UCANSEE2

>>>Which is not meant to discredit his prophecy<<<

Really?


18 posted on 05/20/2014 5:30:15 AM PDT by PhilipFreneau
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To: hinckley buzzard

>>>If you follow the Bible as a record of Man’s growing understanding of his relationship to God, from ancient origins to the New Testament, you find a trend from angels as messengers and actors to visions interpreted by angels, such as in Daniel, Zechariah and now John at Patmos.<<<

Israel Warren makes similar comparisons in his book. It is a very good read.

Philip


19 posted on 05/20/2014 5:32:56 AM PDT by PhilipFreneau
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To: PhilipFreneau

How about, it was written that way because John is repeating the visions he saw and was directed by God to write down what he saw...

I’m sure John saw nothing other than what he wrote and had no intentions of writing in ‘code’ for any reason...


20 posted on 05/20/2014 5:34:01 AM PDT by Iscool
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To: Iscool
>>>How about, it was written that way because John is repeating the visions he saw and was directed by God to write down what he saw...<<<

That is a given. All scripture is inspired by the Holy Ghost:

    "For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." (2 Pet 1:21 KJV)

Philip

21 posted on 05/20/2014 5:37:55 AM PDT by PhilipFreneau
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To: Salvation

>>>The language is purposely written this way because of the active persecutions that were occurring.<<<

That is what the author, Israel Warren, claims; and that is what I believe as well.

Philip


22 posted on 05/20/2014 5:44:33 AM PDT by PhilipFreneau
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To: PhilipFreneau

Got to remember that Revelations is the hardest book in the Bible to read and understand. That is why it should be read LAST.


23 posted on 05/20/2014 7:59:59 AM PDT by Biggirl (“Go, do not be afraid, and serve”-Pope Francis)
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To: PhilipFreneau

Graphic novel version, which I have myself.

http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/16132284-the-book-of-revelation


24 posted on 05/20/2014 8:04:49 AM PDT by Biggirl (“Go, do not be afraid, and serve”-Pope Francis)
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To: Iscool
Something you wrote nagged me throughout the day:

>>>I’m sure John saw nothing other than what he wrote and had no intentions of writing in ‘code’ for any reason..<<<

Then I recalled that John actually heard things that he didn't write about:

"And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not." (Rev 10:4 KJV)

I wonder what he heard?

-:)

Philip

25 posted on 05/20/2014 4:37:10 PM PDT by PhilipFreneau
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To: Biggirl

>>>Graphic novel version, which I have myself.<<<

There are loads of graphic novels out there, mostly by dispensational/futurist authors like Hal Lindsey.

Philip


26 posted on 05/20/2014 4:39:34 PM PDT by PhilipFreneau
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To: PhilipFreneau
1. It must be written in such a way that its meaning would be concealed from the persecuting powers .

This is not peculiar to the book of Revelation.
1 Cor 2:7-8 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
God can prevent people from seeing things.
Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Israel is still spiritually blind today and will remain that way until the times of the Gentiles ends.

Can you think of any symbols in the book of Revelation that were not used elsewhere in scripture? 666 is the only one I could think of but the meaning of the numbers 3 and 6 comes from other parts of the bible.
27 posted on 05/20/2014 7:25:01 PM PDT by Seven_0 (You cannot fool all of the people, ever!)
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To: Seven_0
>>>Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.<<<

>>>Israel is still spiritually blind today and will remain that way until the times of the Gentiles ends.<<<

I believe that has already been fulfilled. Recall that Jesus said a similar thing about the Gentiles when prophesying the AD 70 destruction of Jesusalem in the Olivet Discourse:

    "And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled." (Lk 21:24 KJV)

In the referenced book, The Book of Revelation: An Exposition , 1886, on page 144, Warren writes:

     "And the holy city they shall tread under foot forty and two months." The word trample fitly expresses the insolent abuse which is practiced upon a city and people by a cruel and exasperated conqueror. The period of time here mentioned accords almost literally with the duration of the Roman invasion up to the capture of the city. Nero appointed Vespasian general of the army that was to attack Judea in the first part of February, A.D. 67, and the city was taken August 10, A.D. 70, a space of almost exactly three and a half years, or forty-two months, or twelve hundred sixty days. It is true that the Romans were not all this time in the city itself; but they were in the land, burning and plundering, and making their way continuously towards that city, which, being the capital, might naturally be named for the entire province. This was in exact coincidence with what had been predicted by Christ himself, "They shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations, and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled." Luke xxi. 24. Besides, the city itself during that period was actually in the possession of a fierce horde of robbers— called by Josephus Zealots and Idumeans, —the latter a Gentile race who murdered and plundered at their will, inflicting miseries on the helpless inhabitants without a parallel in all the annals of war."

>>>Can you think of any symbols in the book of Revelation that were not used elsewhere in scripture? 666 is the only one I could think of but the meaning of the numbers 3 and 6 comes from other parts of the bible. <<<

I believe 666 represented Nero. He persecuted the saints for 42 months before committing suicide.

Philip

28 posted on 05/21/2014 7:34:42 AM PDT by PhilipFreneau
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To: ifinnegan
Hippie fantasy nonsense.

Did they have hippies back in Greece, and Rome ?

29 posted on 05/21/2014 9:47:22 AM PDT by UCANSEE2 (Lost my tagline on Flight MH370. Sorry for the inconvenience.)
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To: PhilipFreneau

Yes, really.

There are many ‘ways’ to try and induce some kind of trance state to achieve a ‘closeness’ to God. Drugs are one way. Abstention from sex (worldly pleasures) is another and used by priests. Ritualistic starvation is another popular method.

The choice of method usually due more to accepted customs of the time. Whether the ‘prophecy’ they produce is ‘true’ is another story.


30 posted on 05/21/2014 9:54:50 AM PDT by UCANSEE2 (Lost my tagline on Flight MH370. Sorry for the inconvenience.)
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To: UCANSEE2

>>>There are many ‘ways’ to try and induce some kind of trance state to achieve a ‘closeness’ to God. Drugs are one way. Abstention from sex (worldly pleasures) is another and used by priests. Ritualistic starvation is another popular method.<<<

No thanks. I will stick to feasting on the Word of God, and prayer.

Philip


31 posted on 05/21/2014 11:28:17 AM PDT by PhilipFreneau
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To: PhilipFreneau
I believe that has already been fulfilled. Recall that Jesus said a similar thing about the Gentiles when prophesying the AD 70 destruction of Jesusalem in the Olivet Discourse:

If you read the next verse you see that all Israel will be saved. Are you trying to say that Israel is saved by the destruction of Jerusalem?
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
When Israel and Jacob are mentioned in the same passage, Jacob is the natural man and Israel is the spiritual man. If you argue that the verse is talking about spiritual Israel(the church) , then what do you do with the reference to Jacob? The church is not spiritual Jacob. And what about Israel's blindness? Surely this is not talking about the Israel of God. Doesn't the verse imply that Israel will see again when the fulness of the gentiles comes?
32 posted on 05/21/2014 9:47:29 PM PDT by Seven_0 (You cannot fool all of the people, ever!)
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To: Seven_0
>>>If you read the next verse you see that all Israel will be saved. Are you trying to say that Israel is saved by the destruction of Jerusalem?

Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:<<<

You are assuming "all Israel" means "All Israel." That is not the case. Paul went into some detail explaining that only the children of the promise are the seed of Abraham; and while not all of Abraham's seed are Israel, all of Israel are Abraham's seed:

    "Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed." (Rom 9:6-8 KJV)

Therefore, as previously explained by both Jesus and John the Baptist, not all who claimed descendancy from Abraham were in fact his seed, because they were not children of the promise. And who were the children of the promise? Paul begins by explaining Abraham's seed is, first, through Isaac, and then through Jacob, each time eliminating many of Abraham's seed. But he doesn't stop there: in verses 27-29 he quotes Isaiah:

    "27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: 28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth. 29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha." (Rom 9:27-29 KJV)

Note the implication: There was only a remnant saved, and what appears to be only a single seed of the promise (verse 29.)

How can this be? Paul explains in Galatians 3:16 that only a single seed of Abraham, Jesus Christ, actually received the promises. Note the word "promises" is plural. Christ received all the promises:

    "Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ." (Gal 3:16 KJV)

Christ, in turn, has deemed his children to be fellow-heirs of the promise; but ye are children by faith, not through the flesh, which was the theme of Romans 9:

    "For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." (Gal 3:26-29 KJV)

To assume that "all Israel" means everyone of the race of Israelites is to read way too much into the scripture. Recall that Paul initiates Romans 9 with a lamentation:

    "For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:" (Rom 9:3 KJV)

Would Paul have lamented his Jewish brethren if he thought all were to be saved? He further explains here:

     "What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory," (Rom 9:22-23 KJV)

So, some were destined for destruction, and some were destined for glory. Let's get back to the scripture you quoted:

    "And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:" (Rom 11:26 KJV)

But who was the "all Israel" that the Deliverer saved? Recall that only those of the promise were considered the seed of Abraham; and Paul, in quoting Isaiah, explained that only a remnant were saved. He quoted similar prophecy in chapter 11:

    "But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace." (Rom 11:4-5 KJV)

You can add to the remnant those who called upon the name of the Lord:

    "And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call." (Joel 2:32 KJV)

Paul explained both methods of salvation for Israel. This is for those whom Christ called, who Joel labeled the remnant, and who Paul explained (above) were the elect, which included Paul:

    "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will … In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ." (Eph 1:4-5, 11-12 KJV)

And in chapter 10 Paul explained how the others were saved:

    "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent?" (Rom 10:13-15 KJV)

Those who did not fit into either of these two categories were either destroyed, enslaved, or scattered. The remnant--the elect---became the foundations of our faith, and reign in heaven with Christ. We know some of them by name, for example, Peter, Paul, Stephen, James, and John.


>>>When Israel and Jacob are mentioned in the same passage, Jacob is the natural man and Israel is the spiritual man. If you argue that the verse is talking about spiritual Israel(the church), then what do you do with the reference to Jacob? The church is not spiritual Jacob. And what about Israel's blindness? Surely this is not talking about the Israel of God. Doesn't the verse imply that Israel will see again when the fulness of the gentiles comes?<<<

I don't how the natural vs spiritual man applies in this instance. Note that Paul lumped them together: Israel and Jacob, in the verse you quoted. Joel doesn't distinguish at all, except to note the two paths of salvation.

Regarding the Church: the first Church was "all Israel," and remained that way until the days of Cornelius. I also believe, from the scripture, that the first resurrection was "all Israel." That is, the kings and priests in heaven serving with Christ are all from the tribes of Israel. Before I comment on your claim that "the Church is not spiritual Jacob," I would need to see some clear scriptural support for your claim, and to know what point you are trying to make.

Recall that "the Israel" that was blinded (in part) was only a small remnant. All were eventually saved and were resurrected during the first resurrection in AD 70, after the fulness of the Gentiles, and during the generation Christ promised. The disciples were given thrones and judge the twelve tribes of Israel:

    "And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." (Mt 19:28 KJV)

Their thrones are mentioned in the first resurrection of Revelation 20:

    "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years." (Rev 20:4 KJV)

Philip

33 posted on 05/22/2014 2:34:30 AM PDT by PhilipFreneau
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To: PhilipFreneau

Whatever works for you. However, I wasn’t talking about you or me. I’m not sure any of those ‘ways’ actually hook you up with God’s personal chatline, but still, there is a long history of using such methods.


34 posted on 05/22/2014 11:47:44 AM PDT by UCANSEE2 (Lost my tagline on Flight MH370. Sorry for the inconvenience.)
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To: PhilipFreneau
You are assuming "all Israel" means "All Israel."

Have you considered the possibility that "all Israel" means "All Israel?"

I don't how the natural vs spiritual man applies in this instance. Note that Paul lumped them together: Israel and Jacob, in the verse you quoted. Joel doesn't distinguish at all, except to note the two paths of salvation.

Scripture is not careless with words and we do well to pay attention to the details. The rule from 1Corinthians 15:46 is natural first then spiritual. When you see a passage that mentions both Jacob and Israel you know that Jacob is the natural man and Israel is the spiritual man. When you compare the Church with Israel the same rule applies. Israel the came first and is the natural man the church came second and is the spiritual man. Be mindful of this relationship as you develop your doctrine, there are many places where you can use it for guidance, especially when you distinguish between Israel and the Church. So if we look at the passage in Romans:
Rom 11:24-26 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree? 25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
We see that verses 24 and 25 is speaking of the natural man. Verse 26 says that all Israel shall be saved, but only the spiritual man can be saved. Thus the reference to Jacob brings us back to the natural man. Interestingly it is not talking about natural blindness, but natural blindness is how we understand what spiritual blindness is.

Modern day Israel is constantly demonstrating her blindness.
35 posted on 05/22/2014 10:33:13 PM PDT by Seven_0 (You cannot fool all of the people, ever!)
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To: Seven_0
>>>Have you considered the possibility that "all Israel" means "All Israel?"<<<

I have considered if for about forty years. It is not in the Bible. Over the centuries it was rarely considered to be in the bible until the new-age doctrines were created about the mid 1800's. There is, however, this about all nations being of one blood, which has been with us since the first century:

    "And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;" (Acts 17:26 KJV)

And this about showing favouritism:

    "But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors." (Jas 2:9 KJV)

    "For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Rom 10:12-13 KJV)

    "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." (Gal 3:28-29 KJV)

And there is this about the general resurrection of all people:

    "Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." (Jn 5:28-29 KJV)

And finally this about how Christ has broken down the wall between Jews and Gentiles, allowing the Gentiles into the kingdom:

    "That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us…" (Eph 2:13-14 KJV)

Some--the enemies of Christ--the children of Satan--are attempting to rebuild that wall. They will not succeed.


>>>Scripture is not careless with words and we do well to pay attention to the details. The rule from 1Corinthians 15:46 is natural first then spiritual.<<<

There is a difference between the natural (carnal) body and the resurrected (spiritual) body. If you read on in ch.15 you see the point Paul was trying to make:

    "Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption." (1 Cor 15:50 KJV)

Peter made a similar statement:

    "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:" (1Pet 1:23-24 KJV)


>>>When you see a passage that mentions both Jacob and Israel you know that Jacob is the natural man and Israel is the spiritual man.<<<

I believe you are reading way too much into the scripture. I see the names interchanged at random. These are examples, the first being one of the verses that mentions God renaming Jacob:

    "And God said unto him, Thy name is Jacob: thy name shall not be called any more Jacob, but Israel shall be thy name: and he called his name Israel." (Gen 35:10 KJV)

    "Israel then shall dwell in safety alone: the fountain of Jacob shall be upon a land of corn and wine; also his heavens shall drop down dew." (Deu 33:28 KJV)

    "O ye seed of Israel his servant, ye children of Jacob, his chosen ones." (1Chr 16:13 KJV)

    "And hath confirmed the same to Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant," (1Chr 16:17 KJV)

    "Ye that fear the Lord, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all ye the seed of Israel." (Ps 22:33 KJV)

    "For he established a testimony in Jacob, and appointed a law in Israel, which he commanded our fathers, that they should make them known to their children:" (Ps 78:5 KJV)


>>>When you compare the Church with Israel the same rule applies. Israel the came first and is the natural man the church came second and is the spiritual man. Be mindful of this relationship as you develop your doctrine, there are many places where you can use it for guidance, especially when you distinguish between Israel and the Church. <<<

The first Church was all Israel--the Israel of God. Only later were the Gentiles allowed into the Church when Christ broke down the middle wall, as aforementioned.


>>>We see that verses (Romans 11) 24 and 25 is speaking of the natural man. Verse 26 says that all Israel shall be saved, but only the spiritual man can be saved. Thus the reference to Jacob brings us back to the natural man. Interestingly it is not talking about natural blindness, but natural blindness is how we understand what spiritual blindness is. Modern day Israel is constantly demonstrating her blindness.<<<

I really do not understand your reasoning. Th scriptures are simple. Israel, in part, was blinded; and in part, was not. Paul, Peter, James, … all the early Christians were not blinded. Those who persecuted the early Christians were blinded.

The deliverer of Israel is spoken of in Isaiah and Joel. As mentioned in a previous post, Joel provides details about who from Israel were to be saved, and how they were to be saved, e.g., some were called--they were the elect; and the remainder were/are saved by hearing and believing the Words of the New Covenant and calling upon the name of the Lord. This cannot be stressed enough:

    "For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Rom 10:12-13 KJV)

Philip

36 posted on 05/23/2014 7:40:36 AM PDT by PhilipFreneau
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To: PhilipFreneau
Over the centuries it was rarely considered to be in the bible until the new-age doctrines were created about the mid 1800's.

I don't think it matters when something is discovered in God's word, what matters is what is true.

I believe you are reading way too much into the scripture. I see the names interchanged at random.

I have come to believe that there are many things in scripture yet to be discovered. God has revealed his character to us through his word and his work. If you assert that some things are random in scripture then you need a mechanism to determine which things are random and which things have a specific meaning. All scripture is inspired by God and is profitable. Here "all scripture" means "all scripture."

The Bible also declares that scripture cannot be broken but we are constantly pointing out mistakes in the various translations. I believe the bible we have today is exactly as God intended it to be. God gave it to us and God certifies it. There were no rough drafts and God has no plan B.
37 posted on 05/23/2014 10:04:59 PM PDT by Seven_0 (You cannot fool all of the people, ever!)
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To: Seven_0

>>>I don’t think it matters when something is discovered in God’s word, what matters is what is true.<<<

I thought that is what this discussion was all about: to find the truth.

Philip


38 posted on 05/24/2014 10:17:33 AM PDT by PhilipFreneau
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To: Seven_0
>>>I have come to believe that there are many things in scripture yet to be discovered. God has revealed his character to us through his word and his work.<<<

I agree, somewhat. I believe Christ fulfilled his old testament (his old covenant) with his new testament (his new covenant;) and I believe the scripture is unambiguous on that matter. I believe those "things yet to be discovered" are mostly related to how prophecies (old and new testament) have been fulfilled (as in, already fulfilled, but incorrectly explained.) The few exceptions---the things yet to be fulfilled---are all found in the latter passages of Rev 20; namely, the defeat of Satan and the final or general judgement.


>>>If you assert that some things are random in scripture then you need a mechanism to determine which things are random and which things have a specific meaning.<<<

Alternately, we can simply assume that Jacob and Israel are interchangeable in the scripture, since both were his actual names. For example, ponder this verse I posted previously:

    "Ye that fear the Lord, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all ye the seed of Israel." (Ps 22:33 KJV)

Who are the seed of Jacob, and who are the seed of Israel? Are they not the same? And how about this verse:

     "O ye seed of Israel his servant, ye children of Jacob, his chosen ones." (1Chr 16:13 KJV)

Who was the servant, and who were the chosen ones? Maybe this will explain:

     "Yet now hear, O Jacob my servant; and Israel, whom I have chosen:" (Isa 41:8 KJV)

Therefore, bear witness that Jacob is both his servant and his chosen, and Israel is both his servant and his chosen.

There are many more examples. This is a very good one! Do you recall the record of Balaam, when he was seeking to bless Israel, and saw Israel abiding in tents?

     "And when Balaam saw that it pleased the Lord to bless Israel, he went not, as at other times, to seek for enchantments, but he set his face toward the wilderness. And Balaam lifted up his eyes, and he saw Israel abiding in his tents according to their tribes; and the spirit of God came upon him. . . How goodly are thy tents, O Jacob, and thy tabernacles, O Israel!" (Num 24:1-2, 5 KJV)

Okay, who was abiding in tents? Was it Jacob or Israel?

Do you recall the prophecy of, what I call, "the grumbling servant?"

     "Then I said, I have laboured in vain, I have spent my strength for nought, and in vain: yet surely my judgment is with the Lord, and my work with my God. And now, saith the Lord that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the Lord, and my God shall be my strength. And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth." (Isa 49:4-6 KJV)

Of course, the so-called "grumbling servant" was Jesus; but who were the tribes of Jacob? LOL!

I hope you can understand why I believe the words are interchangeable, and typically interspersed in the text in a random nature. The only exception might be when the tribes were temporarily split into two kingdoms.


>>>All scripture is inspired by God and is profitable. Here "all scripture" means "all scripture."<<<

Without a doubt.


>>>The Bible also declares that scripture cannot be broken but we are constantly pointing out mistakes in the various translations. I believe the bible we have today is exactly as God intended it to be. <<<

I believe it is all God's Word.

Philip

39 posted on 05/24/2014 11:31:51 AM PDT by PhilipFreneau
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To: PhilipFreneau
I hope you can understand why I believe the words are interchangeable, and typically interspersed in the text in a random nature. The only exception might be when the tribes were temporarily split into two kingdoms.

I understand why you believe the words are interchangeable and you understand why I think they are not. It is one of the places we disagree. Jacob and Israel are not the only examples in scripture:
Mal 1:2-3 I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob, And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.
Here Jacob is the spiritual man because he is compared to Esau.
Ruth 3:12 And now it is true that I am thy near kinsman: howbeit there is a kinsman nearer than I.
Here Boaz is the spiritual man because he is second in line to redeem Ruth. These are types and they are all through scripture and the more of them you find the stronger the argument becomes that they have specific meaning. Cain and Able, Ishmael and Issac, Zarah and Pharez, first and second birth, first and second testaments, all are related to the first and second man, Adam and Christ.

God is the author of all of this and it is therefore perfect. Does he speak deliberately or can we say it is random?
Luke 4:4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

40 posted on 05/24/2014 11:11:18 PM PDT by Seven_0 (You cannot fool all of the people, ever!)
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To: Seven_0
>>>God is the author of all of this and it is therefore perfect. Does he speak deliberately or can we say it is random?<<<

Are you implying that God, the author of the universe, is forbidden to speak randomly? Who forbids him? Should we be placing our own rules and restrictions on God's Word, as if we know the mind of God: as if we are his counselor?

If God intended for everyone to understand everything, why did Jesus speak in parables? Why are prophecies written symbolically, and not in plain language? Why was Daniel's book sealed?

We do know that this will occur at the time of his choosing, and for those of his choosing:

    "For there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; neither hid, that shall not be known." (Luke 12:2 KJV)

Until that time, we debate. LOL!

Philip

41 posted on 05/25/2014 6:34:48 AM PDT by PhilipFreneau
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To: PhilipFreneau
Are you implying that God, the author of the universe, is forbidden to speak randomly?

You bring up an interesting point. If God were to pick a random number, he would know ahead of time what he would pick.

Until that time, we debate. LOL!

Ah yes. The Bible is a very large book. I tend to learn more from people I disagree with. It forces me to take a another look.
Josh 13:1 Now Joshua was old and stricken in years; and the LORD said unto him, Thou art old and stricken in years, and there remaineth yet very much land to be possessed.

42 posted on 05/25/2014 2:08:59 PM PDT by Seven_0 (You cannot fool all of the people, ever!)
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To: Seven_0
>>>Josh 13:1 Now Joshua was old and stricken in years; and the LORD said unto him, Thou art old and stricken in years, and there remaineth yet very much land to be possessed.<<<

Interesting point!

    "And the Lord gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein. And the Lord gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the Lord delivered all their enemies into their hand. There failed not ought of any good thing which the Lord had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass." (Jos 21:43-45 KJV)

    "Take good heed therefore unto yourselves, that ye love the Lord your God. Else if ye do in any wise go back, and cleave unto the remnant of these nations, even these that remain among you, and shall make marriages with them, and go in unto them, and they to you: Know for a certainty that the Lord your God will no more drive out any of these nations from before you; but they shall be snares and traps unto you, and scourges in your sides, and thorns in your eyes, until ye perish from off this good land which the Lord your God hath given you. And, behold, this day I am going the way of all the earth: and ye know in all your hearts and in all your souls, that not one thing hath failed of all the good things which the Lord your God spake concerning you; all are come to pass unto you, and not one thing hath failed thereof. Therefore it shall come to pass, that as all good things are come upon you, which the Lord your God promised you; so shall the Lord bring upon you all evil things, until he have destroyed you from off this good land which the Lord your God hath given you. When ye have transgressed the covenant of the Lord your God, which he commanded you, and have gone and served other gods, and bowed yourselves to them; then shall the anger of the Lord be kindled against you, and ye shall perish quickly from off the good land which he hath given unto you." (Jos 23:11-15 KJV)

    "Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people." (Jer 31:31-33 KJV)

God keeps his promises.

Philip

43 posted on 05/25/2014 6:17:50 PM PDT by PhilipFreneau
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