Posted on 05/21/2014 3:55:37 AM PDT by markomalley
Msgr Pope ping
What did Jesus mean by the Fires of Hell? Uhhhh, the fires of hell?
It seems most obvious to me these are metaphors.
Being of the natural world, we only have natural pain to use as a reference point when describing a world of nothing but agony. It is obvious therefor we would use the strongest images of torture we could muster when describing such a place and for a long time, burning has been considered one of the worst ways to die.
This being said, burning cannot accurately describe hell. Burning is a transformative process through fire by which some element changes state.
Defined thus ~ “to undergo rapid combustion or consume fuel in such a way as to give off heat, gases, and, usually, light”
During burning, said element is consumed through combustion to its greatest possible degree into heat lost to surrounding elements, gases given off, light energy, and more often than not some after product which can withstand the flame but is unrecognizable from the original element.
Notice the finite nature of such a process. Nothing burns forever, for this is almost a contradiction in terms. Even suns do not burn forever. They eventually die and are no longer considered suns.
I take it to mean then, that when we are told of burning in hell, it is merely a dramatic metaphor for a world we are unable to describe accurately in any way due to our limitations of understanding in this natural world. All of this must be understood in the context of what God is, the source of all good in existence. Hell is a world emptied of His presence. We can have no idea what such a world would be like, but you can guarantee it would make the torture of burning feel like a walk in the park. Hell is void. A void for the spaceless and timeless entity, be it angelic or disembodied soul.
Do not be dismayed however, for it works both ways. In the same way as the Biblical description of hell is certainly an understatement, so is its description of heaven. We cannot comprehend the richness and glory of the coming Kingdom of God, and that should make you very happy and eager to be of the Word, follow the Son, and love the Lord your God will all your heart and all your soul and all your mind.
Excellent point!
Precisely. It is a location by which we have absolutely no concept, so the Master put it into terms that the Jews of the day would begin to understand, the valley of Hinnom (Gehenna).
Ping!
Umm, as you might suspect, we Jews have clear, precise tradition and understanding of Gehinom. If you were curious, it more literally translates to ‘purgatory’ and good news-it’s temporary (for Jews... Sorry, you just knew there was a catch right?)
We appreciate your concern however. Thanks.
Jesus gave an account of a rich man, and a begger named Lazerus. The details of this story (which was not a parable) contradict the notion that hell is without fire.
From what I learned, during the first three centuries of the Church, “hell” was a warm place but not eternal. Its “eternity” came later.
Hell is a place eternally without God.
We mustn’t think of this fallen state as if it’s the same as the eternal state. In the eternal state, the Second Law of Thermodynamics will no longer be operative. How else is eternal life possible? God will supernaturally uphold our lives in the eternal state we’re judged to enter. Just as Christ created additional bread ex nihilo, He’ll create perpetual, eternal fire.
The gruesome Knoxville crime the Pastor references in this sermon are the murders of Channon Christian and Christopher Newsom.
Thank God that He sent Jesus to save me, so I don’t have to be terrorized by thought of hellfire and eternal damnation! It is in my daily morning prayers to thank Him for His grace and mercy to me, a poor miserable sinner.
The problem is not necessarily the fire, it is the ‘burning’. I cannot see anything burning outside space and time in the sense we understand what ‘burning’ is. Those in hell presumably do not have physical forms (they are not given resurrection bodies for example). It seems farfetched to imagine God giving the dead eternal bodies and creating a physical world with eternal fire for them to suffer in.
I would find the idea of simply suffering beyond our human comprehension outside time and space to be a more likely truth when it comes to the reality of hell, and it was written as burning to communicate the highest form of suffering to the Ancient Jews of this period. God could have made a word for this suffering, but it would have been lost on human beings who had no way of experiencing it in their physical reality.
“In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.”
I find this to be inconclusive, though it is the best argument for literal fire. However, the rich man is using words to convey his pain, and thus is limited to his lexicon. It is possible that burning in fire is the closest description one can use to describe the agony of hell.
I understand the request to have a water-dipped finger pressed to his tongue to indicate some kind of heat, but in this lies a clue that we are not talking about somebody burning as we understand it. The request itself is strange. On fire, a simple drop of water would have zero effect on your temperature, so why does the rich man ask for a wet finger to be pressed to his tongue? Even this sounds like some kind of metaphor. Why not request a bucket of water to be tipped over him? I find it likely the rich man is grasping in a deluded state, overwhelmed by the pain he is in and trying desperately to draw strings between the world he resides in, and the world he knows.
Years ago at the seminary I had a priest take the exact opposite view. He said that these are so opposed to God that being in His presence would burn more than anything else.
An interesting take on it, but I believe God is not malicious and would not force His love/presence on anyone who did not want it unconditionally. On a side note, David wrote in the Psalms about the presence of God being everywhere, including Hell.
Psalm 139:8 "If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there."
It’s clear that Satan, the antichrist and the false prophet are all thrown into the “lake of fire” and tortured forever, and those whose names are not found in the book of life are thrown into the same place after the Great White Throne judgment.
You’re correct that it might be some sort of unknown torture, but the “rich man” in Luke 16 was wanting Lazarus to bring a drop of water to cool his tongue from the “phlox” (flame) he was experiencing. So it felt like torturous flames to him.
Also, the dead “stand before,” “histemi enopion,” God.
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
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