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“We Are Church” Movement Leader Is “Shocked” by Her Excommunication
http://www.patheos.com ^ | May 22, 2014 | Kathy Schiffer

Posted on 05/22/2014 12:03:30 PM PDT by NKP_Vet

Martha Holzer, a senior leader in the dissident Catholic group We Are Church, is “shocked” that Pope Francis has taken the extraordinary step of excommunicating her and her husband Gert.

Pope Francis took this action after the pair “simulated the Mass”–that is, they regularly took part in “private Eucharistic celebrations” at her home with no priest present. The Church considers the simulation of the Mass a delictum gravius, or “grave delict”.

We Are Church, which has members in more than 20 countries, is notorious for its disregard for the priesthood–insisting, as they do, that all participate in the “priesthood of all believers” and that both men and women should be ordained to the ministerial priesthood.

Here in the United States, We Are Church’s member organizations are a Who’s Who of dissident groups including the American Catholic Council, Call To Action, Catholics Speak Out, Corpus, DignityUSA, FutureChurch, PaxChristi/Maine, the Women’s Ordination Conference, and others.

(Excerpt) Read more at patheos.com ...


TOPICS: Current Events; History; Religion & Culture; Theology
KEYWORDS: catholic; popefrancis; religiousleft
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRt2cKvJLlE
1 posted on 05/22/2014 12:03:30 PM PDT by NKP_Vet
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To: NKP_Vet

I read this over on Fr. Z’s cite. Pope Francis seems to be finding his way as Pope. His off the cuff remarks cause confusion, particularly when the MSM puts their spin on it. One thing I have seen constantly from him, he talks of satan still active in the world seducing humanity and he is solid on the Priestly ordination is not open for woman. This is the 2nd bomb on this question today that I have read, one American woman in Chicago I believe and now this one in Austria.


2 posted on 05/22/2014 12:06:34 PM PDT by CTrent1564
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To: NKP_Vet
the simulation of the Mass a delictum gravius, or “grave delict”.

In flagrante delicto gravius.

3 posted on 05/22/2014 12:06:55 PM PDT by MUDDOG
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To: NKP_Vet

“As often as you do this, do it in remembrance of Me.”

My wife and I take communion at home. It is open to all Christian believers and does not require a priest, pastor, or anybody else some church organization deems a “special” Christian.


4 posted on 05/22/2014 12:08:15 PM PDT by cuban leaf
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To: NKP_Vet

One can hardly blame Catholics for not wanting/needing/trusting priests. This couple will soon find that the Lord has in fact set them free to worship Him directly since He is our only high priest.


5 posted on 05/22/2014 12:09:33 PM PDT by Dr. Thorne ("How long, O Lord, holy and true?" - Rev. 6:10)
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To: NKP_Vet

Well done for the Pope, maybe he is not such a panzy as he seems to be. Now he just needs to excommunicate pro-abort Catholics.


6 posted on 05/22/2014 12:13:19 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: Dr. Thorne

They don’t come from your angle of hatred against catholic priests. They want all to actually be catholic priests.


7 posted on 05/22/2014 12:17:55 PM PDT by Berlin_Freeper (You can't be passive and moral.)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

“He just needs to excommunicate pro-abort Catholics.”
He should start with the politicians and work his way down.I would pay good money to see Pelosi’s face when she got hers.


8 posted on 05/22/2014 12:18:39 PM PDT by Farmer Dean (stop worrying about what they want to do to you,start thinking about what you want to do to them)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans
Now he just needs to excommunicate pro-abort Catholics.
Put (divorced) Cuomo, Pelosie and Harry Reid at the top of that list.
9 posted on 05/22/2014 12:18:52 PM PDT by oh8eleven (RVN '67-'68)
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To: oh8eleven

Harry couldn’t care less,he’s a Mormon.


10 posted on 05/22/2014 12:20:00 PM PDT by Farmer Dean (stop worrying about what they want to do to you,start thinking about what you want to do to them)
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To: Dr. Thorne
This couple will soon find that the Lord has in fact set them free
BS. The "Lord" hasn't done a damned thing since creating the universe.
11 posted on 05/22/2014 12:21:37 PM PDT by oh8eleven (RVN '67-'68)
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To: NKP_Vet

One who persists in heresy ought not be “shocked” when the boom is lowered. Doesn’t happen often enough, though.


12 posted on 05/22/2014 12:22:04 PM PDT by Fester Chugabrew
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To: Farmer Dean

Excommunicate him from the human race then.


13 posted on 05/22/2014 12:22:54 PM PDT by oh8eleven (RVN '67-'68)
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To: NKP_Vet

these kooks only call themselves “Catholic” for the media attention. lady, start your own church, call yourself a “priestess,” dance around a liberty tree, and celebrate whatever “sacraments” you want


14 posted on 05/22/2014 12:23:17 PM PDT by ghost of stonewall jackson (An amateur built the Ark; professionals built the Titanic)
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To: cuban leaf
You are right.

However, this woman and her husband profess to be Catholics, and insist that they are Catholic, despite flouting the tenets and doctrines of the Church.

They are the ones demanding to be "special Catholics". You do not have to be Catholic to be a Christian, and if they were simply "Christian believers", there would be no problem with the Pope. If they also just had their "Masses" in private, at home, then odds are the Pope would never find out about it, and problem solved.

There's nothing wrong with "activating" for Church reforms according to your beliefs, but actions have consequences. Why do they want to be Catholic, when they feel the doctrines are wrong? Much easier to join another Church, or be your own Church - both viable options, surely! You just can't be your own Catholic Church...simple!

15 posted on 05/22/2014 12:25:52 PM PDT by 88keys (broken glass GOP; it matters, replace the Dems. 2014!!)
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To: oh8eleven
He's a miserable old man and his time on earth will soon end.Old age is the final arbiter,his real problems will begin after he passes.
16 posted on 05/22/2014 12:29:50 PM PDT by Farmer Dean (stop worrying about what they want to do to you,start thinking about what you want to do to them)
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To: oh8eleven

Run that by us one more time?... Explain.


17 posted on 05/22/2014 12:30:49 PM PDT by Resolute Conservative
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To: oh8eleven

re: “BS. The “Lord” hasn’t done a damned thing since creating the universe.”

Deist?


18 posted on 05/22/2014 12:32:15 PM PDT by rusty schucklefurd
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To: NKP_Vet

God bless Pope Francis.


19 posted on 05/22/2014 12:32:26 PM PDT by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: NKP_Vet

There are Protestant churches that believe this. The honest thing would have been to go join one of those and quit misappropriating the Catholic label.


20 posted on 05/22/2014 12:32:52 PM PDT by Buckeye McFrog
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To: Dr. Thorne

it will take awhile but they will come to the conclusion eventually that they have been set free.


21 posted on 05/22/2014 12:33:35 PM PDT by fish hawk (no tyrant can remain in power without the consent and cooperation of his victims.)
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To: Buckeye McFrog

I agree. A similar comparison is how the left is now high-jacking words and institutions (marriage) and trying to change them. Start your own or join one that aligns with your beliefs. If you are not practicing Catholic doctrine then don’t call yourself Catholic.


22 posted on 05/22/2014 12:36:11 PM PDT by Resolute Conservative
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To: CTrent1564
Pope Francis seems to be finding his way as Pope.

"Finding his way" seems overly generous. Still seems way in the hole to me.

23 posted on 05/22/2014 12:39:13 PM PDT by steve86 ( Acerbic by nature, not nurture)
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To: Dr. Thorne
This couple will soon find that the Lord has in fact set them free

They don't want to be "set free" from the Catholic Church - they want to change its teachings to their liking.

24 posted on 05/22/2014 12:39:55 PM PDT by ConservingFreedom (A goverrnment strong enough to impose your standards is strong enough to ban them.)
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To: Dr. Thorne
Jesus Christ set them free on the Cross.

They chose to enslave themselves to the zeitgeist.

25 posted on 05/22/2014 12:43:42 PM PDT by Campion
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

“Now he just needs to excommunicate pro-abort Catholics”

But they tend to be redistributionist. So ain’t gonna happen.


26 posted on 05/22/2014 12:43:45 PM PDT by all the best (sat`~!)
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To: Resolute Conservative; rusty schucklefurd
Run that by us one more time?
The only way I can believe in God, is one who created the universe, gave us free will and then bailed out.
Any "interactive" God who sat back and (for example) allowed 50 million people to die in WWII, when all He had to do was knock off Hitler in WWI, is no God to me.
27 posted on 05/22/2014 12:44:10 PM PDT by oh8eleven (RVN '67-'68)
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To: Buckeye McFrog

Agreed.


28 posted on 05/22/2014 12:45:04 PM PDT by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: oh8eleven
... hasn't done a damned thing...

Semantically, you're correct.

29 posted on 05/22/2014 12:49:06 PM PDT by jonno (Having an opinion is not the same as having the answer...)
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To: NKP_Vet

I am of two minds on this.

On the one hand, I can find nothing in Scripture that requires that Communion be conducted in church or be administered by a minister. The only admonitions I can find are that the believer examine himself/herself before partaking to insure that we are not partaking unworthily - that is with unrepented sin in our lives - and that when we partake in Communion, we do so in remembrance of Him.

On the other hand, if you want to call yourself Catholic, you should be willing to abide by the teachings of the Catholic Church. If you are not willing to do so, and are very public about it, then you should not be surprised when you are removed from the body of that organization.


30 posted on 05/22/2014 12:49:39 PM PDT by CA Conservative (Texan by birth, Californian by circumstance)
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To: 88keys

I’m in complete agreement with your assessment of this. Churches have rules, if you don’t like them you can go all martin luther on them if you want.

But nowadays tape is as good as a nail.


31 posted on 05/22/2014 12:50:57 PM PDT by cuban leaf
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To: CA Conservative

Thread killer! ;-)


32 posted on 05/22/2014 12:51:31 PM PDT by cuban leaf
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To: CA Conservative
you are not willing to do so, and are very public about it, then you should not be surprised when you are removed from the body of that organization.

Excommunication is much more severe than mere removal from an organization.

33 posted on 05/22/2014 12:52:56 PM PDT by Teacher317 (We have now sunk to a depth at which restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men)
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To: cuban leaf

I know, logic and reason certainly don’t do much to spice up a thread, do they? :-)


34 posted on 05/22/2014 12:53:17 PM PDT by CA Conservative (Texan by birth, Californian by circumstance)
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To: steve86

steve86:

Well he is still the Pope and as Pope Benedict taught, even by his resignation, we should never get caught up in the personality of the Pope. Francis is a Jesuit so that will take some getting use to. But 2 excommunications on the issue of woman’s ordination is a very good sign, you through that in with the excommunication of Fr. Reynolds of Australia, who participated in a womyn’s ordination in Australia, that is 3 in the last few months.


35 posted on 05/22/2014 12:54:20 PM PDT by CTrent1564
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To: Dr. Thorne

yep, they get to join some protestant group and make up religion to their own liking. Good for them.


36 posted on 05/22/2014 12:56:07 PM PDT by CTrent1564
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To: Teacher317
Excommunication is much more severe than mere removal from an organization.

For a Catholic, I am sure it is much more serious. I am speaking, of course, as a lay Christian not a part of the Catholic Church. As such, a Catholic priest telling me I was excommunicated would not affect me or my relationship with God at all...

37 posted on 05/22/2014 12:58:54 PM PDT by CA Conservative (Texan by birth, Californian by circumstance)
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To: oh8eleven

The fallen world is a dangerous place.


38 posted on 05/22/2014 1:00:43 PM PDT by Doomonyou (Let them eat Lead.)
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To: CA Conservative

;-)


39 posted on 05/22/2014 1:03:09 PM PDT by cuban leaf
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To: Berlin_Freeper

“They want all to actually be catholic priests.”

According to your catechism, they already are:

“1268 The baptized have become “living stones” to be “built into a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood.”74 By Baptism they share in the priesthood of Christ, in his prophetic and royal mission. They are “a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s own people, that [they] may declare the wonderful deeds of him who called [them] out of darkness into his marvelous light.”75 Baptism gives a share in the common priesthood of all believers.”

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p2s2c1a1.htm

Though, this seems a fairly meaningless concession, since the Catholic church doesn’t seem to think members of this priesthood are able to perform priestly duties.


40 posted on 05/22/2014 1:04:38 PM PDT by Boogieman
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To: oh8eleven

“Any “interactive” God who sat back and (for example) allowed 50 million people to die in WWII, when all He had to do was knock off Hitler in WWI, is no God to me.”

Huh? You just conceded that God gave us free will, but then you want Him to step in and act like a babysitter when we exercise that free will in bad ways?

You can’t have it both ways. Either we get free will, along with the consequences, or it is just an illusion of free will.


41 posted on 05/22/2014 1:08:31 PM PDT by Boogieman
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To: cuban leaf

Wrong. It is a local church ordinance as is clearly demonstrated by passages about it in the new testament.


42 posted on 05/22/2014 1:09:53 PM PDT by sigzero
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To: oh8eleven

re: “The only way I can believe in God, is one who created the universe, gave us free will and then bailed out. Any “interactive” God who sat back and (for example) allowed 50 million people to die in WWII, when all He had to do was knock off Hitler in WWI, is no God to me.”

So, if I understand you correctly, if God interacts with His creation, then you don’t want Him to allow for free will - because, if He does interact with creation, and He allows for free will, then He’s responsible for all the evil we do because He doesn’t stop it?


43 posted on 05/22/2014 1:10:30 PM PDT by rusty schucklefurd
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To: Boogieman
Catholic church doesn’t seem to think members of this priesthood are able to perform priestly duties.
Thank you very much for pointing to the error of your interpretation.
44 posted on 05/22/2014 1:12:58 PM PDT by Berlin_Freeper (You can't be passive and moral.)
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To: oh8eleven
Any "interactive" God who sat back and (for example) allowed 50 million people to die in WWII, when all He had to do was knock off Hitler in WWI, is no God to me.

You're assuming He "sat back" and did nothing, even though the scripture teaches that every catastrophe, every war, every death (for he ordains even the very second when it should happen) and, indeed, every good thing we receive too, comes from His power and will. Even the unleashed devil is only unleashed because God allowed it, and planned to use it to fulfill His own purposes. If God did not want to demolish us with so many dead, it would not have happened. We should take our calamities then as judgment and warning for even worse things, unless we repent.

45 posted on 05/22/2014 1:14:37 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: oh8eleven

Nope, you’re wrong.

I’ve seen God’s intervention in my life many times, including having my life saved from danger miraculously more than once.

He acts, and continues to act, since well after the creation of the universe.

Ed


46 posted on 05/22/2014 1:16:39 PM PDT by Sir_Ed
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To: Dr. Thorne; NKP_Vet

As Catholics, they are frauds. As Protestants, they would just be Protestants.


47 posted on 05/22/2014 1:16:40 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (What does the LORD require of you, but to act justly, to love tenderly, to walk humbly with your God)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans
If your existence is used to continuously deal with the bad things being done by someone else, how God-like are you? If God were tempt-able, then He would be inferior to the one we call Satan. If God became relegated to dealing with all the evil men do via the urging of The Evil One, then how desirable would be a relationship with such a God?
48 posted on 05/22/2014 1:18:42 PM PDT by MHGinTN
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To: Teacher317

True. It’s removal from the sacraments. But they seem to think they can cobble together their own sacraments, so what the heck?


49 posted on 05/22/2014 1:19:39 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (What does the LORD require of you, but to act justly, to love tenderly, to walk humbly with your God)
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To: CTrent1564
Well he is still the Pope and as Pope Benedict taught, even by his resignation

I don't necessarily accept the validity of any papal appointment subsequent to (roughly) St John XXIII. Having said that, it is becoming increasingly evident that Benedict (who certainly wasn't a bad pope), was forced from the papacy by dark forces.

50 posted on 05/22/2014 1:20:53 PM PDT by steve86 ( Acerbic by nature, not nurture)
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