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FALLING AWAY FROM GOD'S GRACE
http://www.aconqueringfaith.net/2014/05/falling-away-from-gods-grace.html ^

Posted on 05/26/2014 7:44:27 PM PDT by discipler

When it comes to the topic of if a Christian can fall from God's grace, the "once saved, always saved" people bring up the sheep example. Very oddly, they miss something.

Jesus said, "28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 “My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand." John 10:28f. Jesus also said earlier, "11 I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep. 12 “He who is a hired hand, and not a shepherd, who is not the owner of the sheep, sees the wolf coming, and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them. 13 “He flees because he is a hired hand and is not concerned about the sheep. 14 “I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me," John 10:11ff.

What do the Calvinistic "perseverence of the saints" folks miss in these verses?

What they miss is two things, 1] the wolves can and are destroying sheep, and 2] sheep sometimes stray from the good shepherd. The prodigal son had a good father and yet he was able to leave. While we faithful have great security in Christ, when we are weak in faith and when we listen to the false teachers, we can be led astray and lose our salvation.

Romans 8:37-39 is a good passage to show that external things cannot separate us from the love of God. That equates with great security for our salvation in Christ. So don't lose heart. But a rebellious Christian can depart from God. As sheep sometimes go astray from the flock, so Christians can quit listening to the voice of the great Shepherd and go the path of destruction. Said in love, Discipler


TOPICS: Theology
KEYWORDS: christianity; salvation; sanctification; theology
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1 posted on 05/26/2014 7:44:27 PM PDT by discipler
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To: discipler

Nope. Dead wrong. Roman 8:1. “there is no condemnation in Christ Jesus” and John 3:16 “He who believes that Jesus is the Son of God has everlasting life” You are just reading what you want so you can get money from the confused.


2 posted on 05/26/2014 7:49:14 PM PDT by SADMILLIE
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To: discipler
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory. Ephesians 1:13-14

No where in the Bible does it ever say we are unsealed or that we can unseal ourselves.

From a Biblical teaching your salvation is secure.

3 posted on 05/26/2014 7:51:16 PM PDT by ealgeone (obama, borderof)
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To: discipler

“What they miss is two things, 1] the wolves can and are destroying sheep,”

Here is where you are pushing the analogy too far. It breaks down as you try to make it not apply to eternal security.

“and 2] sheep sometimes stray from the good shepherd. The prodigal son had a good father and yet he was able to leave.”

Exactly. He was able to stray. He was always a son.

“While we faithful have great security in Christ, when we are weak in faith and when we listen to the false teachers, we can be led astray and lose our salvation.”

The only false teaching I see in this thread is your opening post... but even that cannot steal a believer from the hand of God.


4 posted on 05/26/2014 7:52:44 PM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion ( "I didn't leave the Central Oligarchy Party. It left me." - Ronaldus Magnimus, 2014)
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To: discipler
I wished the baptists were correct about "once saved, always saved". As a matter of fact, if I found out that was correct all along when I get to heaven, I'll praise the Lord even more.

However, I've seen too much scripture that shows that one can walk away from their Salvation. Judas walked away from it, and when confronted with his sin killed himself rather than ask forgiveness. On the other hand, Peter denied Jesus three times yet came back to Christ in repentance.

In the Epistles, Demas walked away from Christ when he deserted Paul.

To summarize, I wouldn't place my eternal destiny in a Confession and Dunking I got when I was 12.

5 posted on 05/26/2014 7:53:18 PM PDT by MuttTheHoople (Ob)
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To: discipler

Does not Ephesians 1:13 say:

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

That seal, afforded only to the believers, cannot be broken. Not even by the believer. Those that rebel to the extent you describe I would question their belief in the first place.


6 posted on 05/26/2014 7:53:44 PM PDT by MichaelCorleone (Jesus Christ is not a religion. He's the Truth.)
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To: discipler
If the "sheep" straying away from the shepherd because of the wolves turns them from BEING sheep into goats, then you may have a point, but it doesn't. Sheep are sheep and goats are goats. Jesus used that metaphor for a reason. Our salvation is not dependent upon our efforts or merit. We do nothing to earn or deserve the gift of eternal life. It is by grace THROUGH faith we are saved and that SAME grace keeps us saved.
7 posted on 05/26/2014 7:54:18 PM PDT by boatbums (Proud member of the Free Republic Bible Thumpers Brigade.)
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To: GiovannaNicoletta; F15Eagle; .45 Long Colt; Buddygirl; Former Fetus; Bockscar; Graybeard58; JLLH; ..

Ping. Falling from Grace means getting away from Grace as a means of Salvation which is what the Galatians were doing.

Galatians 5:4
You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.


8 posted on 05/26/2014 7:55:12 PM PDT by WKB
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To: discipler

You’re right.

Jesus said to the disciples “Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.”

John 15:4


9 posted on 05/26/2014 7:56:06 PM PDT by reasonisfaith ("...because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved." (2 Thessalonians))
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To: MuttTheHoople

You are not rightly dividing the Word.


10 posted on 05/26/2014 7:56:32 PM PDT by MichaelCorleone (Jesus Christ is not a religion. He's the Truth.)
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To: reasonisfaith

Jesus warns the disciples themselves about losing their salvation.

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away”

John 15:1-2


11 posted on 05/26/2014 7:58:32 PM PDT by reasonisfaith ("...because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved." (2 Thessalonians))
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To: MuttTheHoople

Agreed. Good post.


12 posted on 05/26/2014 8:01:06 PM PDT by boycott
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To: MuttTheHoople

**However, I’ve seen too much scripture that shows that one can walk away from their Salvation.**

That’s right. The five foolish virgins had their lamps lit, but they didn’t ‘keep the faith’. They didn’t make sure they had enough oil to make it.

The seed that fell on the ground that had thorns and thistles, and the ground that had little depth of earth, both sprouted to life, but didn’t endure.

All seven churches (souls already born again) in Revelation had this command directed at them: “he that over cometh....”.

The little word “if” found all over in the epistles.


13 posted on 05/26/2014 8:08:51 PM PDT by Zuriel (Acts 2:38,39....Do you believe it?)
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To: discipler
Who can know the mind of God?

It is enough for one to "work out your own salvation" and try and bring as many people with you along the way.

We are all scattered seed. If you are in fertile ground you will grow and bare fruit. It is by our fruit that we will be known.

14 posted on 05/26/2014 8:12:03 PM PDT by gov_bean_ counter (Romans 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools)
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To: discipler

God deals with believers; “Thy rod and thy staff, they comfort me.” Chastisement can be even to death.

Hebrews 12: 6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.


15 posted on 05/26/2014 8:15:40 PM PDT by gusopol3
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To: discipler

For my own part, I confess that, if it could any
how be, I should be unwilling to have Freewill
given to me, or any thing left in my own hand,
which might enable me to endeavour after salva
tion :

not only because in the midst of so many
dangers and adversities on the one hand, and of
so many assaulting devils on the other, I should
not be strong enough to maintain my standing
and keep my hold of it (for one devil is mightier
than all men put together, and not a single indi
vidual of mankind would be saved) ;

but because,
if there were even no dangers, and no adversities,
and no devils, still I should be compelled to toil
for ever as uncertainly, and to fight as one that
beateth the air.

v For, though 1 should live and
work to eternity, my own conscience would never
be sure and secure how much she ought to do,
that God might be satisfied with her. Do what
she might, there would still be left an anxious
doubt, whether it pleased God, or whether he
required any thing more; ...Martin Luther, Bondage of the will


16 posted on 05/26/2014 8:21:35 PM PDT by Ruy Dias de Bivar (Sometimes you need more than seven rounds, Much more.)
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To: ealgeone

“No where in the Bible does it ever say we are unsealed or that we can unseal ourselves”
Wrong...
Hebrews Chapter 6: 4-7
READ IT..IT IS CLEAR.
Now granted it is speaking of those who have been operating in the nine gifts of the spirit as in ministry, who have basically “intentionally thrown away salvation in pursuit of earthly pleasures”....but it does mean a person can lose their salvation at certain point in Christian Maturity by choice.


17 posted on 05/26/2014 8:23:24 PM PDT by Kackikat
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To: SADMILLIE
John 3:16 “He who believes that Jesus is the Son of God has everlasting life”

That's not what John 3:16 says. It says 'should have' - not 'has'. Big difference.

18 posted on 05/26/2014 8:29:34 PM PDT by Hoodat (Democrats - Opposing Equal Protection since 1828)
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To: MuttTheHoople

“...”once saved, always saved”. As a matter of fact, if I found out that was correct all along when I get to heaven...”

As I read your comments, I have one question...why are you so sure that you will ‘get to Heaven...’?

That being said, I have a problem with ‘alter calls’. I have seen many respond because someone else has, or because they want to be one of ‘us’...however we are. And then they go out for the church, lite up the cigarette, go home and polish off a six-pack, swear at the TV ‘cause their team is losing...etc...you know what I mean. Was their ‘conversion’ real? Time will tell, but I hope that somewhere in the course of their life here on earth they really ‘get knocked off their horse, blinded’ and really know that they have had a face to face with Yeshua.

For those who have had that experience, in what ever way they have it, but a deep personal experience, I believe that ‘no one can separate us’, not even me.


19 posted on 05/26/2014 8:30:53 PM PDT by GGpaX4DumpedTea (I am a Tea Party descendant...steeped in the Constitutional Republic given to us by the Founders)
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To: discipler
I believe this verse here is a slam dunk:

Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

2 Peter 1:10-11

20 posted on 05/26/2014 8:32:48 PM PDT by Hoodat (Democrats - Opposing Equal Protection since 1828)
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To: Kackikat

Hebrews says nothing about becoming unsealed by the Holy Spirit.


21 posted on 05/26/2014 8:35:41 PM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion ( "I didn't leave the Central Oligarchy Party. It left me." - Ronaldus Magnimus, 2014)
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To: Kackikat
And then there's Revelation 3:5:

He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

22 posted on 05/26/2014 8:36:23 PM PDT by Hoodat (Democrats - Opposing Equal Protection since 1828)
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To: MichaelCorleone
Those that rebel to the extent you describe I would question their belief in the first place.

The Catch-22 of OSAS.

23 posted on 05/26/2014 8:42:52 PM PDT by Hoodat (Democrats - Opposing Equal Protection since 1828)
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To: Kackikat

I disagree as this would contradict a substantial portion of the New Testament teaching on the security of the believer. We have to be careful with one verse theology.


24 posted on 05/26/2014 8:50:55 PM PDT by ealgeone (obama, borderof)
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To: SADMILLIE

I witnessed numerous Christians depart the faith while we were in Turkey, being seduced into believing that Allah was God and they actually renounced Jesus as only a prophet, not the Son of God. Can a True believer really depart from the faith? At age 65, I’d have to say that I think you can take YOURSELF away from God, but no one else can. You CAN decide to stop believing. I have seen this. I know that ONLY GOD knows for sure, in the long run, but it seems to me that those who choose to later repent of their belief in God will likely not be among the saints.

It is sad to watch as some grow cold in their faith and begin to become deliberately hostile to those who remained in their faith. I’ve witnessed that, also. Those who end in faith are the true believers. Those who remain faithful to the end. While one may stray for a while, if one repents and turns back to faith, God forgives. If one forsakes the faith and does not repent, then I’d say that it is quite likely they may not be among the saints who gain the first resurrection. The teaching of salvation appears to hold somewhat to both views, which is called an antinome. Two opposing views, both having validity. When we get to Heaven, I guess we’ll understand it all, but for now it is one of the mysteries of the faith. I feel that God leaves it unsolved for us for now because it keeps us wondering a little so we don’t get too cocky and self-assured. So, we should NOT be beating one another up over this. The main thing to remember is that our faith is not of our own works, but the saving grace God extends to us through the death of His Son, and His resurrection. His work on the cross, not our goodness. The ground is level at the foot of the cross, where we all must come and repent.

We should be encouraging one another in the faith, not looking for ways to disagree and condemn one another. We are going to need one another in the days ahead. We are going to need to be ready to give shelter and support. It worries me to read some of the comments about believers in other countries that seem t have a little different form of worship, or traditions. We MUST set these aside, we MUST pray for each one (ourselves included) to be filled with God’s spirit and His Truth, to love one another in such a way that the world does not see our differences but our love of each other that can only be contributed to God’s power working in us.

“You are just reading what you want so you can get money from the confused.”
I think we need to be careful in our accusations towards one another. To say that someone is trying to make gain on their beliefs or lord it over others is inflammatory. If you know this to be a fact, that is one thing, but to just say something like this to make someone look bad reminds me of the left, who instead of being able to really argue their points resorts to insults and accusations. We don’t want to parrot the left. State your case, but do it in love, remembering that it is God’s grace alone that ANY of us have anything, and we are all at different places in our growth and understanding. Be gracious towards one another.


25 posted on 05/26/2014 8:51:12 PM PDT by Shery (in APO Land)
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To: Hoodat
Cute response but the fact remains once the believer is sealed by the Holy Spirit, he is sealed until the day of redemption. Also go back and read, really read, Roamn Ch 8.

And you need to study and reflect on 2 Tim 2:15 “Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.”

I would caution you not to diminish the finished work of Christ. We will pray for you.

26 posted on 05/26/2014 9:03:27 PM PDT by MichaelCorleone (Jesus Christ is not a religion. He's the Truth.)
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To: MichaelCorleone
"Sealed by the Holy Spirit" does not equate to spending eternity in heaven. On the day of redemption, one could find things turning sour for them in a big way in a very short matter of time. I can even hear people saying "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?" Such people will be in for a rude awakening on the day of redemption if they never bothered to enter into a relationship with Christ because they thought they didn't need to since they were already saved.

As for Romans 8, I know the chapter intimately. It is hands down far and away the greatest chapter in the entire Bible. Verse 9 says that we are positionally perfect. Verses 18-22 reveal God's purpose behind salvation. Verses 31-39 reveal the love of God. And verse 37 tells us who we are.

Yet it is very possible for us to walk away from this. Paul warns us against grieving the Holy Spirit by whom we were sealed for the day of redemption. Because if we do, we may find ourselves subject to the consequence of the unforgivable sin and one that we would not have confessed much less repented for when that day of redemption comes.

I get the point about God's infallibility. But we as humans are fully capable of forfeiting a gift we had at one time accepted. As for 2 Timothy 2:15, my translation begins with 'be diligent'. If OSAS is true, there would be no need for being diligent. In fact, all of 2 Timothy 2 would be a waste since there is no legitimate reason for godliness once a person gets saved. In fact, one could discard the entire New Testament save for a few verses if it was impossible to forfeit salvation. Jesus entire gospel of the kingdom of heaven would be pointless as well since the kingdom represents the restoration of our souls (among other things) after our spirit has been renewed. Yet the OSAS doctrine gives no account of the process we endure after we accept Christ and His Spirit as a foundation for living.

And in no way am I diminishing anything concerning the finished work of Christ. But I would remind you that Covenant is a two-way street. If the finished work of Christ was all it took, then everyone would already be saved.

I will leave you with this:

Matthew 13:3-9

27 posted on 05/26/2014 9:33:22 PM PDT by Hoodat (Democrats - Opposing Equal Protection since 1828)
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To: MichaelCorleone
>>>That seal, afforded only to the believers, cannot be broken. Not even by the believer. Those that rebel to the extent you describe I would question their belief in the first place.<<<

I have always wondered about the "once saved, always saved" doctrine, primarily because of verses like these:

    "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame." (Heb 6:4-6 KJV)

    "Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul." (Heb 10:38-39 KJV)

    "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;" (2Th 2:3 KJV)

    "Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness." (2Pet 3:17 KJV)

    "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels." (Rev 3:5 KJV)

    "And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book." (Rev 22:19 KJV)

Philip

28 posted on 05/26/2014 9:39:13 PM PDT by PhilipFreneau
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To: SADMILLIE

Then what would you say to the likes of Stalin? At one time he was a seminarian, which argues very strongly he was saved.

Personally, I feel that one can tell from a person’s actions whether or not they are saved.


29 posted on 05/26/2014 10:26:52 PM PDT by Frumious Bandersnatch
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To: reaganaut; Godzilla

BLFR


30 posted on 05/26/2014 10:52:54 PM PDT by reaganaut (Ex-Mormon, now Christian. I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see.)
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To: Hoodat

~~~It says ‘should have’~~~

What version are you quoting there?


31 posted on 05/26/2014 11:27:41 PM PDT by F15Eagle (1Jn4:15;5:4-5,11-13;Mt27:50-54;Mk15:33-34;Jn3:17-18,6:69,11:25,14:6,20:31;Ro10:8-11;1Tm2:5-6;Ti3:4-7)
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To: discipler
we can be led astray and lose our salvation.

If you could loose eternal life ... it's not eternal.

32 posted on 05/27/2014 1:21:40 AM PDT by dartuser
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To: boatbums

Great point.

When faced with those who believe we can lose our salvation, I’ve found a couple of points worthwhile to communicate.

1) God knows everything in eternity future from eternity past. When He gave salvation to each believer, He wasn’t having a senior’s moment and went, DOH!!!!, I forgot about that sin.....

2) The very act of thinking we can lose our salvation ONLY happens if we are NOT thinking through faith in what Christ performed on the Cross. Our salvation is based upon our faith/believing in Him and what He provided on the Cross,...He was judged for ALL our sin. (If this isn’t understood, consider it a test,....try it though not needed, those who believe we can lose salvation are already out of fellowship, so it can be pointed out to them for them to consider it, to wake up and return back to faith in Christ.)

3) The issue being confused is salvation and fellowship. Once we are saved, we have been forgiven our sins. If we sin again, we can return to Him by facing back to Him, remembering what He Provided on the Cross and confess those sins to Him. He is sure and just to forgive those sins and we are back in fellowship.

4) When we sin, we simply fall out of fellowship. We are not condemned again. Our goal is to return to fellowship, so we might follow the Plan He has made for us from eternity past. It isn’t the believer’s goal to constantly accuse. That is the thinking pattern of the Adversary.


33 posted on 05/27/2014 1:43:56 AM PDT by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: PhilipFreneau

Try this.

Focus on your thinking,...the object of your thinking, when in fellowship with Christ and what He Provided at the Cross,...compared to say,...when you think about a sin you’ve committed before you’ve confessed it to God through faith in what Christ provided.

Now consider how we think, if we are out of fellowship, in the context of the verses you posted. They don’t point to loss of salvation, rather they point out how we should be thinking and when we aren’t how God is thinking.

IMHO, the most challenging task for God was to communicate to fallen man, who lacked the faculty to spiritually perceive with a regenerated human spirit. Think about it. How do we evangelize to those who have no clue or perception what the spirit means. They have no means to identify the object in their thinking. The natural tendency is to treat anything spiritual as foolishness.

The sealed believers are different. They have a regenerated spirit. We can still sin and fall out of fellowship. God recognizes this and realizes we have volition which He made in us. When we step away from Him by our volition, it’s something He doesn’t control because He made that volition for us to exercise. Even though He recognizes we fall away, and He remains in His integrity, sound in His nature, our actions thereby cause him Grief. That’s why when we sin or fall out of fellowship, it is also called, “Grieving the Holy Spirit”.

So many arguments appealing to guilt/obedience, simply remain out of fellowship with His Plan. We do feel guilty when we recognize we have fallen out of fellowship, but that is part of why He has provided a mechanism for post-salvation sin to be forgiven, namely through faith in what Christ Provided on the Cross and our confession of it to Him. He returns us to fellowship because He loves us.


34 posted on 05/27/2014 2:03:14 AM PDT by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: Frumious Bandersnatch

There are all sorts of charlatans and wicked people who PROFESS Christ but are wolves in sheep’s clothing, liars.

Many people may think such people are saved, but they “never knew” God.

They are simply liars.

The final accounting is when you can no longer repent for your sins and get right with God.

That’s when you die.

At THAT point, one’s record is final.

Stalin is clearly not saved, no matter if he went to Church, was a choirboy, or whatever.

It was all for nought.

Even if everyone and his aunt Tillie was fooled by him.


35 posted on 05/27/2014 2:07:55 AM PDT by PieterCasparzen (We have to fix things ourselves)
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To: Frumious Bandersnatch

Some of the most heinous acts in all history have been committed by believers out of fellowship with God.

BTW, this is a feature which Satan also hates in us. Neither can he control us when we sin. We might be rebelling from God, but the Adversary can’t forgive,...it’s not in his nature.


36 posted on 05/27/2014 2:08:09 AM PDT by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: PieterCasparzen
The final accounting is when you can no longer repent for your sins and get right with God.

Maybe we can rephrase that a little bit to better convey the meaning.

The object in God's Plan is to glorify the Son, ..it's not all about us.

If we find ourselves out of fellowship, but God the Holy Spirit still indwells us. ...but for some reason we refuse to return to Him,...this places God in an awkward position, because He does nothing that is "good for nothingness".

This implies the Holy Spirit is not going to remain in us if He can't perform anything good in us. So if we are no longer in a state of any potential good by His Plan from eternity past, we are simply taken home is what is called the "sin unto death".

He may have other mechanisms available to Him, but His Integrity remains sound. If we are sealed, we remain sealed.

He might treat us like little spoiled kids. We might have fallen out of fellowship,...refuse to return to Him, ...even after He disciplines and punishes us,...and if we continue to throw tantrums, His hand isn't cornered to perform our selfish volition. He might simply ignore us or place us off to the side.

He might use us to prove other points to all of Creation as a witness and they might not be complementary of our behavior.

Remember, good and evil have not been resolved in the same fashion sin has been settled at the Cross.

Also remember from the Garden,...man ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil and because of it we would surely die. More believers are separated from God by good and evil, than legalism. We easily confuse good and evil with obedient fellowship and sin. They aren't the same.

37 posted on 05/27/2014 2:23:43 AM PDT by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: Cvengr

His law is “written on the hearts” of men.

People internally know when they’re opposing God.

Some tell themselves they’re not and perhaps convince themselves, sort of.

Some people will hide their sin and lie to cover up. “What I’m doing is ok”. “I didn’t do that”.

Some unsaved profess Christ - they are liars, wolves in sheep’s clothing.

Some people revel their sin and do not cover it up.

On the other hand,

One who is saved feels an overpowering feeling of needing to get right with God; to repent. They will come to be repulsed by their own sin, and thus come back to God repenting.

Of course, those who are saved will see progressive sanctification in their lives.

They’ll want to study the Word of God, they’ll want to be obedient to Christ. They’ll have trials and setbacks, but they’ll persevere through to the end in their lives.

They’ll realize and admit that it’s nothing for them to boast of, what they’ve done and said well in their life, they give the glory to God for these things.


38 posted on 05/27/2014 2:24:48 AM PDT by PieterCasparzen (We have to fix things ourselves)
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To: PieterCasparzen

Good post.

When is the law written into the hearts of man? Is it at salvation or is it part of sanctification or is it future Millennial Kingdom?

I know for the Jews, it’s future Millennial. I was under the impression it is part of our continuing sanctification process, but I need to restudy this point.


39 posted on 05/27/2014 2:34:14 AM PDT by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: F15Eagle

NKJV


40 posted on 05/27/2014 2:38:53 AM PDT by Hoodat (Democrats - Opposing Equal Protection since 1828)
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To: Cvengr

Well, the concrete part I know is it’s part of OT prophecy of the coming of Christ and the establishment of his kingdom; he reigns today at the right hand of God.

Matthew 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

One OT prophetic verse:

Jeremiah 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

And this is of course confirmed in the NT.

2 Corinthians 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

Further explained:

Romans 2

“13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)”

There are more verses in both OT and NT, of course, that I don’t have time to list.

The Law in the OT was given to the Israelites, even though it applies universally, of course. They were God’s chosen people. But by _faith_, which is where many misunderstood. One could convert to Judaism or marry in.

The nation of Israel is thus an archetype of the Church, as God’s chosen people; all who are saved by Grace through Faith in Christ. We are likened to “adopted” children of God as opposed to children by blood. Instead of God’s law being given to us in tablets of stone, it is written on the hearts of believers.

Hebrews 8

“6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.”

Which is referenced in the OT in the Psalms, so obviously the preferred, better arrangement is to take God’s Law to heart, not just intellectually know it - even in the OT.

Psalm 40

“1 I waited patiently for the Lord; and he inclined unto me, and heard my cry.
2 He brought me up also out of an horrible pit, out of the miry clay, and set my feet upon a rock, and established my goings.
3 And he hath put a new song in my mouth, even praise unto our God: many shall see it, and fear, and shall trust in the Lord.
4 Blessed is that man that maketh the Lord his trust, and respecteth not the proud, nor such as turn aside to lies.
5 Many, O Lord my God, are thy wonderful works which thou hast done, and thy thoughts which are to us-ward: they cannot be reckoned up in order unto thee: if I would declare and speak of them, they are more than can be numbered.
6 Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.
7 Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me,
8 I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart.”

But notice it does not say written. All I found is references meaning “take it to heart”, etc., not that the law was written by God on hearts in the OT.

Except for this one, where Jeremiah prophecies about Israel’s coming enslavement:

Jeremiah 17:1 The sin of Judah is written with a pen of iron, and with the point of a diamond: it is graven upon the table of their heart, and upon the horns of your altars;

There are more verses, of course, that was just a quick search.


41 posted on 05/27/2014 4:23:59 AM PDT by PieterCasparzen (We have to fix things ourselves)
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To: Hoodat
~~~NKJV~~~

OK, let's go back to your post. The NKJV does not say that.

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To: SADMILLIE
John 3:16 “He who believes that Jesus is the Son of God has everlasting life”

That's not what John 3:16 says. It says 'should have' - not 'has';. Big difference.

18 posted on 05/26/2014 8:29:34 PM PDT by Hoodat (Democrats - Opposing Equal Protection since 1828)

42 posted on 05/27/2014 6:16:09 AM PDT by F15Eagle (1Jn4:15;5:4-5,11-13;Mt27:50-54;Mk15:33-34;Jn3:17-18,6:69,11:25,14:6,20:31;Ro10:8-11;1Tm2:5-6;Ti3:4-7)
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The NKJV doesn’t say ‘*should* have’ at all. Here is the NKJV. “Should” is not there with “have”. Only “should not perish”.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+3%3A16&version=NKJV

John 3:16

New King James Version (NKJV)

16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.


43 posted on 05/27/2014 6:18:58 AM PDT by F15Eagle (1Jn4:15;5:4-5,11-13;Mt27:50-54;Mk15:33-34;Jn3:17-18,6:69,11:25,14:6,20:31;Ro10:8-11;1Tm2:5-6;Ti3:4-7)
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To: Shery

A very good post, I believe, in that it follows the whole counsel of God. The only thing I really wonder about somewhat is your comment on criticisms of those who worship a little differently. What are those differences? Without them being spelled out here I feel I have to wonder if they are something of true substance or not.


44 posted on 05/27/2014 6:30:53 AM PDT by Faith Presses On
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To: MuttTheHoople

Your eternal destiny in no way depends on a dunking.

Dunking is purely outward ceremony. Ceremony does not save. Jesus’ righteousness saves. If God has given you faith in that you are his child. Just as you cannot remove yourself from being the child of your earthly parent you cannot remove yourself from being god’s child. His word is much greater than your own.


45 posted on 05/27/2014 7:08:41 AM PDT by what's up (sun)
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To: F15Eagle; SADMILLIE
“Should” is not there with “have”. Only “should not perish”

'Should' goes with both verbs. If 'should' did not go with 'have', then it would say 'has' instead of 'have'.

Read it both ways. This is what you are claiming it says:

whoever believes . . . have everlasting life.

But this is what it really says:

whoever believes . . . should . . . have everlasting life.

Say it out loud. 'Whoever have' is not grammatically correct. 'Whoever should have' is grammatically correct.

46 posted on 05/27/2014 7:09:58 AM PDT by Hoodat (Democrats - Opposing Equal Protection since 1828)
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To: Hoodat

Well, I quoted it word-for-word.

But, I just happen to have a friend who has taught not only Greek but Hebrew at the college level as well, and who is a conservative Christian pastor. I’ll mention it to him next time I see him.

But again, as I noted, the rendering is not ‘should have’ instead of ‘has’.


47 posted on 05/27/2014 7:15:24 AM PDT by F15Eagle (1Jn4:15;5:4-5,11-13;Mt27:50-54;Mk15:33-34;Jn3:17-18,6:69,11:25,14:6,20:31;Ro10:8-11;1Tm2:5-6;Ti3:4-7)
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To: F15Eagle
If it was supposed to say 'has', then it would say 'has'. But it doesn't. It says 'have' which is subjunctive rather than indicative.

Grammar is your friend.

I really hate to see people get so caught up focusing on the afterlife while completely ignoring the present one. Jesus preached for three years about the kingdom of heaven. Yet so many people miss out on that because they are stuck on John 3:16.

But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you.

Matthew 6:33

48 posted on 05/27/2014 7:29:26 AM PDT by Hoodat (Democrats - Opposing Equal Protection since 1828)
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To: Hoodat

It’s not a grammar issue. I say you’re doing a bit of eisegetical interpretation of your own.

And the other translations don’t do it.

And even what you claimed doesn’t exist as you first suggested it did.

So right now you have an opinion and we don’t agree.


49 posted on 05/27/2014 7:31:54 AM PDT by F15Eagle (1Jn4:15;5:4-5,11-13;Mt27:50-54;Mk15:33-34;Jn3:17-18,6:69,11:25,14:6,20:31;Ro10:8-11;1Tm2:5-6;Ti3:4-7)
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To: Cvengr
Those are all good points, and I certainly believe this:

    "Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much." (Jas 5:16 KJV)

        "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (1Jn 1:9 KJV)

But I am unable to resolve the meaning of verses like Hebrews 6:4-6:

        "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame." (Heb 6:4-6 KJV)

I was hoping someone could take that verse and, using the scriptures, explain how it doesn't apply to us.

Philip

50 posted on 05/27/2014 7:32:31 AM PDT by PhilipFreneau
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