9 Things You Should Know About John Calvin

‘”QUOTE: What do you think God is telling us/you via the following vss:”

That in spite of God setting up mankind all conditions that would enable them to seek him, Romans 3:11 confirms that “...there is no one who seeks God”.’

You have totally & completely misunderstood the meaning of the Acts 17 passage. I will quote it again for you. This time, please comment on the passage itself. I.e.: don’t read the Acts passage & see only the Romans passage. Read & interpret the Acts passage itself this time. [Once you’re clear on Acts, then it can be harmonized with Romans. But if you never comprehend the meaning of the Acts passage to begin with, you will never successfully reconcile it with any other Scriptural passage.]

“26 and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, 27 that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28 for in Him we live and move and [t]exist, as even some of your own poets have said, ‘For we also are His children.’”

While we’re at it, here’s another passage for you. Proverbs 8:17:

“I love those who love me; And those who diligently seek me will find me.”

What does this passage say, Jimmyray? (Hint: it doesn’t say: “I love only the Elect; And nobody diligently seeks Me or finds Me.’)

Now, getting back to Acts 17 again. There is a second passage in it that I would particularly like to hear your thoughts about. If all you can do is respond, ‘Romans!’ then you will certainly miss the point. But if you can read this passage independently & comment on it, your thoughts would be very interesting:

30 “Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, 31 because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead.”

QUOTE: "While we’re at it, here’s another passage for you. Proverbs 8:17: “I love those who love me; And those who diligently seek me will find me.”

I think the key word here is "diligently". We disagree on whether anyone does so without God's prompting. I have quoted multiple verses above that indicate "...no one cometh unto me (Jesus) unless the Father first draw him". Thus, I am convinced that no on seeks God diligently.

As far as your intentions regarding limited punishment, I told you I did not contest that point. However, the destiny of all unbelievers is "everlasting punishment" in the Lake of Fire, or eternal fire, if you want to allegorize away Revelation 20.

Regarding your challenge for me to summarize your intentions, why prevaricate about the bush. What's your point?

Okay, here is a different translation of the same verse from Proverbs:

“I love those who love me, and those who seek me find me.”

Use whatever translation you like. But the point is, it affirmatively says, ‘those who seek me find me.’. You are saying the opposite. Why doesn’t it scare you out of your very mind, to contradict the Word of God? If it doesn’t, it should.

‘As far as your intentions regarding limited punishment, I told you I did not contest that point. However, the destiny of all unbelievers is “everlasting punishment” in the Lake of Fire, or eternal fire, if you want to allegorize away Revelation 20.

Regarding your challenge for me to summarize your intentions, why prevaricate about the bush. What’s your point?’

My point is that I’ve already written to you extensively on this topic, & you misunderstood every word. If you want me to repeat everything I’ve already said, no dice. Once, & in some cases twice already, is enough. You have three options. (1) go back & reread my comments, & this time really try to grasp the point. (2) Ask yourself *why* you can’t understand a non-complicated answer in this particular case. (3) Just keep whiffling around acting like I’m the one who should rehash it all, when in fact there is no need for any of it to be reiterated. It’s all been said. Something is keeping you from comprehending it. Please note, I’m not saying something is keeping you from agreeing with it. You can comprehend something & disagree w it. But you can’t possibly disagree with what you can’t comprehend. That is axiomatic.

QUOTE: Okay, here is a different translation of the same verse from Proverbs:
“I love those who love me, and those who seek me find me.”
Use whatever translation you like. But the point is, it affirmatively says, ‘those who seek me find me.’. You are saying the opposite. Why doesn’t it scare you out of your very mind, to contradict the Word of God? If it doesn’t, it should.

Here is the Word of God:

John 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day."

Romans 3:11 there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God.

1 Cor 12:3 Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.

Matt 16:17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven.

We are in total agreement, whoever seeks God earnestly will find him. Problem is, NO ONE seeks Him unless he calls them first.

Do you want to dismiss, contradict, or ignore these passages? All the while you quote your preferred "seek" passages, you ignore these. Why?

Now you’re just lobbing cranky insults. The simple fact is that I put a tremendous amount of time into my prior replies. You have previously mischaracterized them, & now you’re gratuitously insulting them. You haven’t yet become as rude as other Calvinistic people I’ve encountered, but you’re headed in that direction. In a prior post I mentioned the fruit of the Spirit. Which fruit, specifically, are you exhibiting when you wholly & fundamentally mischaracterize what I’ve written? You’ve gone from misstating my point to claiming I posted antagonistic nonsense. If you honestly believe this, there is no point in conversing with you.

I said I would correspond with you so long as you remained polite & responsive. The conditions are no longer met.

It was not my intention to become beligerant, insulting, or flippant, and for that my apologies. Below is a summation of the points I gleaned from your posts:

Here are your main points, then:

1. Post 74 - Calvin’s god was a Sadistic monster.

2. Post 76 - The eternal destiny of the unsaved is eternal torture

3. Post 76 - The degree of eternal torture is varied based on the level of guilt

4. Post 77 - Belief is something we do, independent of God, in response to his offer of salvation

5. Post 77 - QUOTE: Predestination is not to justification, but to being conformed to the image of Jesus. And those he “foreknew” are the subject of that predestination, but it does not say if those he foreknew means a list of names God picked to save, or those whom God knew would repent and believe. (in response to the SCRIPTURE Rom 8:30 "And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified")

6. Post 86 - QUOTE: "If not, why do you believe the lake of fire is literal?" I suppose you are asserting that it is not literal?

7. Post 87 - QUOTE: "Notice that once he is in ‘this place of torment’ (in which ‘flames’ are mentioned), the rich man still acts on the basis of free will. I.e.: an eternal perspective hasn’t made a Calvinist out of him; quite the contrary; he believes his brothers are capable of repentance if they so choose." I am not sure what to make of this. You mentioned the "Entirely non-Biblical, but quite remarkable." idea of multiple judgments (which I did not suggest), yet you assert this man is in "torment", yet his brothers can still repent. You could be asserting: a) People are judged immediately at death, and cast into the "place of torment" forever, thus his brothers could still repent. b)This is after a final judgment of all men, and the rich man does not understand his brothers are hopelessly condemned like himself c)same as b, but the brothers could repent and escape the "place of torment. d)something else?

8. Post 104: QUOTE: "if some had previously been judged worthy to occupy a place of comfort, & to enjoy Abraham’s embrace, & were marched in from that place to stand judgment (again), while others had been judged worthy to occupy a place of flame & torment, & had been routed from there only to face a second damning judgment, there would be no surprises. Every person present would already have been judged once, & the second time would be redundant." Another one I am not sure how to take. I get your aversion to multiple judgements, but you have a hole in your timeline. What happened to Lazarus when he died 2000 years ago, that is, what happened to his soul? Soul Sleep? Limbo? Purgatory? If he did not go to Abarahams bosom to await final judgment, and the rich man did not go to a less comfortable place to await judgment, where did they go?

Hi again, jimmyray. Apology accepted. I read through your post, and I can tell you it will take me a while to respond. I’m about to log off for the night, & I literally don’t know when I’ll be back online for any length of time. I’m on the brink of another very busy period. I’ll plan to answer when my schedule permits.

Meantime, I did want to address one of your prior comments. I really should have said something about it at the time. It was late, however, & the discussion seemed at an end, so it slipped past.

Here is the comment in question:

“QUOTE: Something is keeping you from comprehending it.”

‘So I’m thick, there it is.’

You said of one of my prior comments, it went to the heart of the matter. [I don’t agree, but that is another topic.] This comment, in its own way, goes to the heart of a serious matter. Namely, it reveals that after all this interaction, you still have no earthly idea what I am like as a person. I.e.: you see me as the kind of person who would not only call you stupid (on a public forum, no less), but would ask you to analyze yourself & *admit* you are stupid.

jimmyray, only a jerk would do that. Have you really exchanged all these comments with me, only to conclude that I am a jerk?

This is what I’m talking about when I say you don’t understand what I’m writing. I’m not saying that because I think you’re stupid. That thought never entered my mind. However, ***something*** is impeding communication between us. If you rule out even the possibility that the ‘something’ I have in mind has to do with IQ [& you really do need to rule this out; as I said, this idea never entered my thinking, not even obliquely], then can you form any hypothesis as to what it may be?

I believe that something is making it very difficult for you to get to the heart of my comments. I may be wrong or I may be right...I think I am right. I would like to bring my idea out into the open. However, I would first like to hear any speculation you have on the subject. If you have the time & inclination, can you brainstorm a little, & toss out any ideas that occur to you? Perhaps we’ll end up agreeing on at least one thing, prior to returning to the specific points at hand. Time will tell.

I’ll plan to comment more as time permits. Blessings to you, in the meanwhile.

I wrote: ‘So I’m thick, there it is.’

It was intended as sarcasm. Don't over think it!

I was referring to the below, which I am repeating from post 149:

I am not sure what to make of this. You mentioned the "Entirely non-Biblical, but quite remarkable." idea of multiple judgments (which I did not suggest), yet you acknowledge this man is in "torment", yet his brothers can still repent. You could be asserting:
a) People are judged immediately at death, and cast into the "place of torment" forever, thus his brothers could still repent.
b)This is after a final judgment of all men, and the rich man does not understand his brothers are hopelessly condemned like himself
c)same as b, but the brothers could repent and escape the "place of torment".
d)something else?

FWIW, most scholars believe that Hades (the grave, Hell) is the temporary destination of the unsaved at death, and that they are conscious, and undergoing torment while waiting for the 2nd resurrection, where they will be judged, and cast into the Lake of Fire, along with death and Hades. Others assert that they are "asleep" in the grave, waiting the resurrection.

You are coming across as a bit obsessive here. You already wrote me a long couple of PMs on doctrine. I said I was too busy to get to them right away but I would address them as time permits. Then I asked you a non-doctrinal question.

You didn’t answer it. In fact, you acted as if it didn’t exist.

You unconvincingly claimed that what looks like a serious comment, with no indication of sarcasm, is sarcasm. Sorry; it still doesn’t come across that way. If you want to interject sarcasm into an otherwise serious discussion, you need to give some clue/hint as to what you’re doing. Otherwise, it doesn’t play.

You evidently have a lot, lot more time than I do. You also seem too focused on winning the doctrinal debate to see anything else. Here’s a tip for you. When you’re exchanging comments with a person who has far less time than you, it’s a good idea not to pile on so many unanswered posts that the other party just throws in the towel. Some people know this innately. Others need a heads up. (Put another way. If you snow a person under too large a pile of unanswered posts, they may just decide they’ll never have sufficient disposable time to properly catch up, & give the whole exchange the heave-ho.)

To reiterate. I punted on the doctrinal discussion temporarily, & broached a non-doctrinal issue. In what is becoming a bit too typical, you breezed past my actual question & went peddle to the metal back to the doctrinal issues.

& you see no communication problems whatsoever? To you, this is the ideal debate?

All I ask is this. Show me where the Scripture speaks of multiple judgmentS. I.e.: judgmentS with a ‘s’ - plural. I can show you Scripture after Scripture that speaks of ‘judgment’, singular, or The Day of Judgment, singular. I can guarantee there is no Biblical passage speaking of judgment in the plural.

“Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,” Hebrews 9:27

So you have God, speaking through His inspired Word, telling us there is one judgment, singular. & somehow from that you derive multiple judgments???

Do you also believe in multiple Kingdoms of God? The Scripture uses many different images to depict the Kingdom of God. If every different image alludes to a different kingdom, there are almost too many to count.

Meaning, yes, of course the Scriptures depict Judgment via different images. But never, ever, does Scripture speak of multiple judgments, any more than it speaks of multiple Kingdoms of God. The imagery changes, but the fact remains. There is only one judgment mentioned in the Bible. It is never spoken of in the plural. [And we know that if there are plural events, the Bible speaks of them in those terms. Witness ‘the second death’. If there were a ‘second judgment’, we’d have heard about that too.]

I hope you don’t just breeze past all that I just referenced. It has scared me more than once, when I presented you with God’s words—given to us for edification by the Holy Spirit—& you just blew it all away. Somehow or other, you claim the words don’t mean what they say. It’s amazing. Well, no; scary was the right word to begin with.

Here are some inspired words for you. I hope & pray you don’t blow these away also:

9 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

Revelation 14:9-11

You’re flat wrong on annihilation. It doesn’t happen.

‘You overlook the fact that I did respond to your question about multiple judgements in post #114’

That wasn’t the question I asked. Remember me twice saying it was a non-doctrinal question? Well, it was. & the question about judgment is a doctrinal issue. [It’s great that we both believe in one judgment, btw. But that gives you the problem of how people get divided into a place of comfort & a place of torment. It was because you believe people are first judged so as to divide them into these two camps, & then later judged so as to be either brought to heaven or consigned to “eternal punishment” that I thought you believed in multiple judgments. Indeed, even now I can’t see how you avoid it.]

Anyway, if we’re going to call it quits, let’s not do it ungraciously. We both believe in Jesus as our Lord & Savior. That is more important than any doctrinal disagreement. I appreciate the time you put into this discussion, & all the thinking & research you influenced me to do. I hope & pray you are richly blessed today & always. If I ever encounter you on a thread again, I’ll have a smile & a warm greeting ready for you.

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