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Evangelical Leader Returns To Catholicism
http://www.washingtonpost.com ^ | May 12, 2007 | Alan Cooperman

Posted on 05/30/2014 10:23:23 PM PDT by NKP_Vet

The president of the Evangelical Theological Society, an association of 4,300 Protestant theologians, resigned this month because he has joined the Roman Catholic Church.

The May 5 announcement by Francis J. Beckwith, a tenured associate professor at Baptist-affiliated Baylor University in Waco, Tex., has left colleagues gasping for breath and commentators grasping for analogies.

One blogger likened it to Hulk Hogan's defection from the World Wrestling Federation to the rival World Championship Wrestling league.

(Excerpt) Read more at washingtonpost.com ...


TOPICS: Apologetics; General Discusssion; Religion & Culture; Theology
KEYWORDS: beckwith; catholic; evangelicals; revert
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
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A little dated, but a great story of returning to the Catholic Church.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OmczwR_ZYw4

1 posted on 05/30/2014 10:23:23 PM PDT by NKP_Vet
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To: NKP_Vet

How many Catholics became Protestants in the same time period, I wonder?


2 posted on 05/30/2014 10:31:02 PM PDT by 2ndDivisionVet (I will raise $2Million USD for Cruz and/or Palin's next run, what will you do?)
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To: NKP_Vet

Well, the Washington Post sure doesn’t miss any chances to belittle our religion, comparing this to the fake world wrestling leagues.


3 posted on 05/30/2014 10:31:26 PM PDT by CharlesWayneCT
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To: CharlesWayneCT

(By “our religion”, I mean our respective religions, not specifically Baptist or Catholic).


4 posted on 05/30/2014 10:32:12 PM PDT by CharlesWayneCT
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To: CharlesWayneCT

I say it’s good riddance to bad rubbish.

FYI, Baptists existed over 300 years before Rome decided to get into the Church Business. How Baptists got lumped in with the Lutherans as protesting something is beyond explanation.

God is already separated enough from man without forty eleven layers of man made, bureaucratic horse Shiite piled up in between........like the recent phenomenon of Marianism for one example.

I’m wearing my Nomex for the rabid Catholics here on FR, not the dangers of Hell’s Fire. On the off chance a reply comes along worthy of reply, I shall counter with scripture. Baal and the Dragon does not count as a reference.


5 posted on 05/30/2014 10:59:12 PM PDT by noprogs (Tired of believing wisdom can come from the collective, willful ignorance of American voters)
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To: NKP_Vet

Thanks for posting.

Another Catholic saved by Grace. Wow.

“O Lord, I believe and profess, that You are truly Christ, the Son of the living God, Who came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the greatest...”


6 posted on 05/30/2014 11:04:22 PM PDT by blackpacific
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To: noprogs
FYI, Baptists existed over 300 years before Rome decided to get into the Church Business. How Baptists got lumped in with the Lutherans as protesting something is beyond explanation.

Ah! The "underground" church pokes its head up tonight. Pope James Carroll I has spoken.

I shall counter with scripture.

This must be the super-secret scripture that was preserved for 2,000 years by the "persecuted" church. Sounds more like a Dan Brown novel.

7 posted on 05/30/2014 11:08:43 PM PDT by JPX2011
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To: NKP_Vet
A little dated, but a great story of returning to the Catholic Church.

Dated? No kidding, just search the year 2007 and look at all the articles posted on this guy. This must really be something.

8 posted on 05/30/2014 11:15:31 PM PDT by ansel12 ((Ted Cruz and Mike Lee-both of whom sit on the Senate Judiciary Comm as Ginsberg's importance fades)
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To: NKP_Vet
Have you ever tried to evangelise to non-catholics? (From the Greek, 'catholic' means 'universal', so in other words, 'Catholic Church' means Roman Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant churches.) Imagine, actually speaking with an atheist, a Buddhist, a Muslim or perhaps a Hindi, about Our Lord, Jesus, explaining how He is the only way to salvation!

See, many non-Roman Catholic Catholics (ie: Protestants), already know the power of the Holy Spirit and the saving grace of Jesus. There are hundreds of millions in 'Christendom' who DO NOT know His Power and Love. As the Catholic Church (for ease of explanation, I'll refer to it as the Christian church) continues to shrink in' Christendom, would it not be prudent to try to grow the believers, rather than try to 'convert' the already saved?

It is easy for a Roman Catholic to 'let rip' on a Protestant and just as easy for a Protestant to 'let rip' on a Roman Catholic, the secret being, both are filled with sinners who will continue to sin, like both you and I, until they are perfected after they physically die. 'The World' sees such things merely as infighting amongst the Christians, making us not 'set apart' from 'the world', no different from 'the world'. Actions like that turn our 'pleasing aroma of Jesus' into the smell of death. You are free to post whatever the moderators allow, but ask yourself this: If posting a piece that baits a Protestant, bringing infighting that causes a 'seeker' to turn back instead of commit to Jesus, do you suppose this pleases the Lord? Of course, the same question applies to a Protestant that posts a comment that baits a Roman Catholic.

There many things that Roman Catholics disagree with concerning Protestantism and there are many things that Protestants disagree with concerning Roman Catholicism. There are a great many MORE things that we AGREE on! Instead of focusing on the divisive, which will hinder evangelisation, why not focus on the common beliefs, to build up one another?

9 posted on 05/30/2014 11:25:47 PM PDT by A Formerly Proud Canadian (I once was blind but now I see...)
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To: ansel12

The article is dated Saturday, May 12, 2007

but represented here as if it’s Saturday, May 12, 2014.


10 posted on 05/30/2014 11:33:16 PM PDT by F15Eagle (1Jn4:15;5:4-5,11-13;Mt27:50-54;Mk15:33-34;Jn3:17-18,6:69,11:25,14:6,20:31;Ro10:8-11;1Tm2:5-6;Ti3:4-7)
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represented here as May 12, 2014

not Saturday, May 12, 2014.

Couldn’t reach back to article header for exact date quote.


11 posted on 05/30/2014 11:34:42 PM PDT by F15Eagle (1Jn4:15;5:4-5,11-13;Mt27:50-54;Mk15:33-34;Jn3:17-18,6:69,11:25,14:6,20:31;Ro10:8-11;1Tm2:5-6;Ti3:4-7)
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To: F15Eagle

Do a search and you will see that FR was saturated with it in 2007, and probably every year since, I thought that I had seen it a lot of times recently, that is why I did a quick search.

I was surprised that a guy switching churches is such a massive event that it has been posted here constantly for so many years.


12 posted on 05/30/2014 11:38:38 PM PDT by ansel12 ((Ted Cruz and Mike Lee-both of whom sit on the Senate Judiciary Comm as Ginsberg's importance fades)
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To: ansel12

I pushed the abuse button regarding the date. Perhaps they’ll correct the date to 2007 as it should have been posted.


13 posted on 05/30/2014 11:40:41 PM PDT by F15Eagle (1Jn4:15;5:4-5,11-13;Mt27:50-54;Mk15:33-34;Jn3:17-18,6:69,11:25,14:6,20:31;Ro10:8-11;1Tm2:5-6;Ti3:4-7)
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To: F15Eagle
The article is dated Saturday, May 12, 2007 but represented here as if it’s Saturday, May 12, 2014.

Easy mistake to make. Papists seldom have good days.

14 posted on 05/30/2014 11:41:32 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: A Formerly Proud Canadian

That was BEAUTIFUL. THANK YOU!


15 posted on 05/30/2014 11:42:59 PM PDT by To Hell With Poverty (Ephesians 6:12 becomes more real to me with each news cycle.)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

The Ctrl-C still had the “Saturday” in it from the source article but I noted that wasn’t the original date posted on FR.

;)


16 posted on 05/31/2014 12:01:24 AM PDT by F15Eagle (1Jn4:15;5:4-5,11-13;Mt27:50-54;Mk15:33-34;Jn3:17-18,6:69,11:25,14:6,20:31;Ro10:8-11;1Tm2:5-6;Ti3:4-7)
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To: F15Eagle

I don’t know if it is abusive, it is just repetitive, it must be really transformative to Catholics, or to their denomination.


17 posted on 05/31/2014 12:02:42 AM PDT by ansel12 ((Ted Cruz and Mike Lee-both of whom sit on the Senate Judiciary Comm as Ginsberg's importance fades)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans; ansel12

Looks like the admins fixed the date on this 7+-year-old article.

Sometimes I like to find a blast from the past, too!


18 posted on 05/31/2014 12:03:43 AM PDT by F15Eagle (1Jn4:15;5:4-5,11-13;Mt27:50-54;Mk15:33-34;Jn3:17-18,6:69,11:25,14:6,20:31;Ro10:8-11;1Tm2:5-6;Ti3:4-7)
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To: A Formerly Proud Canadian
You've expressed some noble sentiments. I appreciate the spirit in which they're offered. There is only a couple of things I would take issue with:

Instead of focusing on the divisive, which will hinder evangelisation, why not focus on the common beliefs, to build up one another?

Unfortunately, protestantism cannot define itself apart from Catholicism. It is by design oppositional. If protestantism was merely an affirmation of Christ this would not be an issue. Unfortunately the rejection of the Catholic Church is inherent in its being. It always will be.

Even in their worship and praise of Christ there is the backhanded slap to Catholicism. This makes it very difficult to make common cause with protestants apart from the deep and fundamental theological issues that separate us. And in today's modern world the protestant, in an attempt to generate goodwill, takes the relativistic approach of, "we have so much in common." I don't think so. We cannot forsake Truth for some nebulous notion of tactical advantage for the sake of the nonbeliever.

19 posted on 05/31/2014 12:04:48 AM PDT by JPX2011
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To: ansel12

Dunno. I figured the admins would work it out and they did.

Hey, at least it’s not from NPR....like a short time back.

I know NPR is the last place I’d be looking for info on Churches.


20 posted on 05/31/2014 12:05:16 AM PDT by F15Eagle (1Jn4:15;5:4-5,11-13;Mt27:50-54;Mk15:33-34;Jn3:17-18,6:69,11:25,14:6,20:31;Ro10:8-11;1Tm2:5-6;Ti3:4-7)
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To: NKP_Vet
The article at the link shows May 2007, not May 2014.

The date is as confused as Beckwith.

I listened as far as him speaking of sola scripture needing to be seen in wide context of doctrine. Then he wadered straight off into the weeds.

I feel sorry for those "Protestants" who must have never received baptism of the Holy Ghost personally themselves, then fall prey to the supposition that it is somehow present in the workings and Admin of the Roman Catholic Church.

There can be Spirit there...but for all of it (all that ecclesiastical body has done) and what it has become?

No way, Jose. It's still trying to drag itself out of the Dark Ages. It wasn't that long ago that a person could not hear that central portion -- called the mass -- in their own language. People were discouraged from reading the scripture -- for centuries! The Apostle Paul recommended no such practice, in fact Paul highly praised those who sought out the scripture to see if what he was saying was true or not.

Jan Hus was right on this score -- and the Roman Catholic Church finally agrees. It only took more about 500 years. What a shame. Is God that stupid?

No He is not.

But all the extra junk (how mankind can seriously screw things up) was not "His" plan in the first place (even as He knew what would indeed happen) with it being as the preacher said, as is written;

Ecclesiastes 7:29


21 posted on 05/31/2014 12:39:47 AM PDT by BlueDragon (...to stay on the safe side...I'm never stopping in Amarillo again)
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To: ansel12

It’s a little disingenuous to post something that’s seven years old as if it’s yesterday’s news, is what it is.


22 posted on 05/31/2014 12:42:49 AM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith....)
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To: noprogs

If it’s a religious system one wants there are tons out there, and the “Protestant” world IS fairly lackluster in comparison.

But Christ didn’t come to make our religion classy. He came to save our souls.


23 posted on 05/31/2014 12:43:09 AM PDT by HiTech RedNeck (Embrace the Lion of Judah and He will roar for you and teach you to roar too. See my page.)
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To: BlueDragon
I feel sorry for those "Protestants" who must have never received baptism of the Holy Ghost personally themselves, then fall prey to the supposition that it is somehow present in the workings and Admin of the Roman Catholic Church.

Matthew 13:3-9 “A sower went out to sow. And as he sowed, some seeds fell along the path, and the birds came and devoured them. Other seeds fell on rocky ground, where they did not have much soil, and immediately they sprang up, since they had no depth of soil, but when the sun rose they were scorched. And since they had no root, they withered away.

Other seeds fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up and choked them. Other seeds fell on good soil and produced grain, some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty. He who has ears, let him hear.”

Not all seed falls on good soil.

That's the only reason the guy would have turned his back on a profession of faith in Christ. It never took to begin with.

24 posted on 05/31/2014 12:47:26 AM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith....)
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To: To Hell With Poverty

Thank you for your kind words. To tell you the truth, I started writing my thoughts, and then words and phrases just came flowing out. I choose to believe it was the Holy Spirit leading me.

I was blessed to attend an ‘Alpha Course’ training session last summer at Centre Street Church in Calgary. Among the many presenters who discussed the course were Spiritual Development Pastors from Centre Street Church and First Alliance Church, the two largest churches in Calgary, and the Spiritual Development representative from the Roman Catholic Diocese of Calgary. What he said was, the Roman Catholic church presents the exact same video series as Protestant churches do. All they do is add a couple of meetings to discuss aspects of Roman Catholicism not cover by the Nicky Gumbel videos.

The fact that two major branches of Christianity could work together so well, blessed and impressed me. I believe that it was in no small part, due to Bishop Fred Henry of Calgary. He is a conservative Bishop, going as far as to tell former Prime Minister Jean Chretien in 2003, that he risked his eternal salvation in supporting homosexual marriage. Obviously, he does not stress the differences between Roman Catholicism and Evangelical Protestantism, else the ‘Alpha’ training would not have included Roman Catholics. Respecting each others’ differences while focusing on common beliefs, I think Jesus would like that.


25 posted on 05/31/2014 12:50:39 AM PDT by A Formerly Proud Canadian (I once was blind but now I see...)
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To: JPX2011

That’s ridiculous.

I have never in my life...56....heard my SBC preachers say diddly bout y’all

Not once.

I know about the Reformation from history not my pastors sermons.

Catholics on this forum beat all stirring crap up like y’all do

My churches over my lifetime have only questioned one Christian faith.....charismatics and tongues

I don’t mind Charismatics but most SBC preachers are suspicious


26 posted on 05/31/2014 12:52:00 AM PDT by wardaddy (we will not take back our way of life through peaceful means.....i have 5 kids....i fear for them)
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To: metmom

+1


27 posted on 05/31/2014 12:57:58 AM PDT by F15Eagle (1Jn4:15;5:4-5,11-13;Mt27:50-54;Mk15:33-34;Jn3:17-18,6:69,11:25,14:6,20:31;Ro10:8-11;1Tm2:5-6;Ti3:4-7)
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To: JPX2011

Yes, the “church” beneath the catacombs. They were beneath the Colluseum as well when those pseudo-Christians (aka Catholics) were being eaten.


28 posted on 05/31/2014 1:05:55 AM PDT by jobim (.)
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To: JPX2011

Such classic projection!

With a few exceptions, most "protestants" and other nondenominational, whoever they are, don't give a moment's thought to [Roman] Catholicism.

The churches I have attended over the years -- NO ONE make mention of "Catholicism", though I am aware some pastors and teachers do (or have).

I didn't and still wouldn't, if it wasn't being rubbed in my face everyday on the pages of FreeRepublic.

Yet I have learned, I have investigated, I have studied, digging after what truth can be found in history and comparing theological aspects even prayerfully so, for enough hours I should have at least a bachelor's degree in apologetics, by now-- I do think I've seen about all that can be said of it as far as this forum goes -- INCLUDING the sort of comments which you have just made -- dozens if not hundreds of times.

Try bringing personal testimony, instead of promotion or Romanism and then I may listen, if the sound can make it through the callouses many of your co-religionists have taken so much effort to force upon me and any of this forum who dares contend for faith in Christ and even His own Spirit that can be freely enough for from the narrow confines of the RCC.

Shoot--- it took centuries for the "magesterium" to catch on to that sort of thing much occurring, being that the same occurred without their own express written consent, and the reality of that also refuting portions of their own navel-gazing Churchianity.

29 posted on 05/31/2014 1:09:44 AM PDT by BlueDragon (...to stay on the safe side...I'm never stopping in Amarillo again)
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To: wardaddy
That’s ridiculous.

Does not the SBC require Catholic converts to the SBC to be re-baptized by immersion in rejection of their valid infant baptism? Even the Catholic Church recognizes a protestant baptism which uses the trinitarian formula.

Like I said, oppositional. By design.

30 posted on 05/31/2014 1:23:41 AM PDT by JPX2011
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To: metmom

Maybe it will "take" for him now.

Whatever it takes.


31 posted on 05/31/2014 1:36:51 AM PDT by BlueDragon (...to stay on the safe side...I'm never stopping in Amarillo again)
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To: BlueDragon
Such classic projection!

Is it now? Catholics don't look to protestants for affirmation of what they believe. It is the exact opposite. Only by comparing and contrasting one's theological beliefs in the mirror of Catholicism can a protestant determine the veracity their beliefs

With a few exceptions, most "protestants" and other nondenominational, whoever they are, don't give a moment's thought to [Roman] Catholicism

It doesn't have to be a conscious thought. It has become so ingrained it has become a subconscious reflex. Faith alone. Christ alone, etc. Whatever form such affirmations take there is always the embedded rejection of the Catholic Church even if the person sitting in the congregration doesn't realize it.

Try bringing personal testimony, instead of promotion or Romanism and then I may listen, if the sound can make it through the callouses many of your co-religionists have taken so much effort to force upon me and any of this forum who dares contend for faith in Christ and even His own Spirit that can be freely enough for from the narrow confines of the RCC.

And yet any personal testimony I might bring to the RF has been preemptively dismissed by you as being restricted within the narrow confines of Roman promotion. So what's the point? The Roman Catholic Church is my personal testimony. Unfortunately, the protestant predilection for describing things in post-enlightenment terms and a pre-occupation with "man-made things" prevents them from understanding that the Catholic Church is not just a visible institution but an organism residing within the Body of Christ.

32 posted on 05/31/2014 1:43:49 AM PDT by JPX2011
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To: JPX2011

More projection.

33 posted on 05/31/2014 1:57:57 AM PDT by BlueDragon (...to stay on the safe side...I'm never stopping in Amarillo again)
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To: noprogs
>> Baptists existed over 300 years before Rome decided to get into the Church Business. How Baptists got lumped in with the Lutherans as protesting something is beyond explanation. << <

Rome decided to get into the church business around 42 A.D., whereas the earliest church labeled "Baptist" dates back to 1609 in Amsterdam, with English Separatist John Smyth as its pastor. So I'm not sure how that's possible unless he had a time machine and went back to over 200 years before Jesus.

34 posted on 05/31/2014 2:07:27 AM PDT by BillyBoy (Looking at the weather lately, I could really use some 'global warming' right now!)
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To: JPX2011
Among the fundamental similarities are (from what I understand of Roman Catholicism):
-belief in a triune God (Father, Son and Holy Spirit)
-belief that Salvation is ONLY through Jesus
-belief that the Holy Spirit changes or molds the believer, IF they allow Him to lead
-belief that those without Jesus, are cast out for Eternity
-belief that those who believe in Jesus, as their Lord and Saviour spend Eternity in Heaven with the Lord.

Are their differences? Of course! To a non-Believer, they don't see the difference between a Roman Catholic and a Protestant. Focusing on these differences, trying to 'convert' each other, especially when human nature (the spirit of 'the world', aka Satan) takes hold, leading to anger and snide comments by both sides, takes us away from worship, allowing the Deceiver to gain a stronghold. Non-Believers see that and think that Christians don't have anything to show me; all they do is fight!

I am reminded of two Bible stories, one being the mother of Zebedees' sons, asking Jesus to have one sit on each side of Jesus in Heaven (Matt 20:20-21). The other story is what Jesus told His disciples when He sent the Apostles out to preach to Israel. (Matt 10:13-15) "If the house is worthy, give it your blessing of peace. But if it is not worthy, take back your blessing of peace. Whoever does not receive you, nor heed your words, as you go out of that house or that city, shake the dust off your feet. Truly I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city."

Since no Protestant is likely to become Roman Catholic, nor vice versa on FR, the constant posting of items that can inflame the 'other' group, no matter which 'other' group, and since Jesus told His disciples to 'shake the dust off their sandals', if they were not received, why go on doing such things? If the Apostles had ignored Jesus' instructions, how many fewer would have heard His message? I believe that if we are presenting our position (be it P or RC) and it is rejected, then stop it. If you don't, you are further inflaming others, potentially leading to a posting war. Muslim proselytize by war, followers of Jesus should not.

As far as worship and praise of Christ, I have taken part in leading worship and I have never 'backhanded(ly) slap(ped)' Roman Catholicism, at least to the best of my knowledge. I don't understand what you mean by that.

As far as 'Truth', the problem is that the Roman Catholic Church (RCC) changed greatly from the Church of the Apostles, adopting many things from the Roman Empire and government. The RCC changed further by the time of Luther, adding concepts that were foreign to the Apostolic church. I believe that in SOME ways, the Protestant movement moved closer to the original church of the Apostles, but not in all ways so I believe that NEITHER group is fully in sync with the original Church.

The problem is that both churches were, are and will be, led by humans, with all the inherent frailties and weaknesses and SIN that comes with being human. As such, many men of God have added positively to each, yet, since no one is fully in tune with the Holy Spirit 100% of the time, they have changed doctrines, which, while on the surface are good, they may not be from the Holy Spirit and therefore, in error. Other men may have let the Holy Spirit lead for a little while, but soon took the lead themselves.
Two examples:
Pope John XII (955–964), who gave land to a mistress, murdered several people, and was killed by a man who caught him in bed with his wife.
and more recently,
Jim Bakker, an Assemblies of God televangelist who defrauded viewers and committed adultery and tried to cover it up.
Unfortunately, there are WAY too many to list.

One need only look to the Temple in Jesus' time. Worship in the Temple had changed from Moses time, and Nehemiah's time when they rediscovered Moses' books. Undoubtedly, between then and Jesus time, many good men of God maintained the Temple. Over the centuries, 'yeast', be it error or evil, entered worship so that by Jesus time, the majority of the Pharisees were corrupt. It was so corrupt that Nicodemus, an uncorrupted Pharisee, chose to seek out Jesus in the middle of the night so as to not be seen.

The Church (RC, P, Orthodox), is far removed from the Apostolic church of the New Testament. Therefore, in my opinion, the Bible can be the only thing uncorrupted and we need to spend much time in prayer and meditation on the Bible, to ensure we understand the 'Truth'.

35 posted on 05/31/2014 2:36:12 AM PDT by A Formerly Proud Canadian (I once was blind but now I see...)
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To: A Formerly Proud Canadian

Thank you poster #9 !


36 posted on 05/31/2014 4:19:28 AM PDT by aumrl (let's keep it real Conservatives)
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To: JPX2011
Unfortunately, protestantism cannot define itself apart from Catholicism. It is by design oppositional. If protestantism was merely an affirmation of Christ this would not be an issue. Unfortunately the rejection of the Catholic Church is inherent in its being. It always will be.

Even in their worship and praise of Christ there is the backhanded slap to Catholicism.

Complete BS.

Catholicsism is virtually never referenced in any of the non-Catholic churches I have ever attended.

Our pastors have far more important things to attend to than bashing others. Our source of identity is being in Christ, not by who our *enemies* are, as the Catholic church bases its identity on.

This makes it very difficult to make common cause with protestants apart from the deep and fundamental theological issues that separate us. And in today's modern world the protestant, in an attempt to generate goodwill, takes the relativistic approach of, "we have so much in common." I don't think so. We cannot forsake Truth for some nebulous notion of tactical advantage for the sake of the nonbeliever.

And it's that elitist, snotty attitude of *we're right and y;all are going to hell because you're not Catholics* that puts the dividing wall up.

Other Protestant and Evangelical denominations have no problems working together and corroborating when need be because of the unity that we have in Christ.

It's Catholicism that tells the world that they have to convert or go to hell.

It's in its very own CCC, has been pronounced as so ex cathedra by popes, and there is currently an FR thread posting the same thing.

I don't see Baptist, Pentecostal, Lutheran, etc, churches telling others that they have to become members of their church to get to heaven.

37 posted on 05/31/2014 5:18:49 AM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith....)
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To: JPX2011; BlueDragon; Alex Murphy; bkaycee; blue-duncan; boatbums; caww; count-your-change; ...
Catholics don't look to protestants for affirmation of what they believe. It is the exact opposite. Only by comparing and contrasting one's theological beliefs in the mirror of Catholicism can a protestant determine the veracity their beliefs

Wrong again.

Projection again.

We compare our beliefs to SCRIPTURE, which is the ONLY standard by which anything is to be compared.

Comparing Catholic teachings to Scripture shows just off base they are. Why would anyone want to compare what they believe to that?

It doesn't have to be a conscious thought. It has become so ingrained it has become a subconscious reflex. Faith alone. Christ alone, etc. Whatever form such affirmations take there is always the embedded rejection of the Catholic Church even if the person sitting in the congregration doesn't realize it.

In your dreams. Catholics wish that were the case. It makes them feel all warm and fuzzy to think that everyone is secretly jealous over them and guilt ridden for leaving the alleged *One True Church*.

Guess again. We sleep at night. The nice, deep, peaceful sleep of the redeemed.

Faith alone and Christ alone because it's in Scripture, not because it's in opposition to Catholicism.

However, thanks for the tacit admission that Catholicism teaches that salvation is not through faith alone and not through Christ alone; that what Jesus did on the cross is not good enough to save anyone.

38 posted on 05/31/2014 5:28:06 AM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith....)
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To: A Formerly Proud Canadian
As the Catholic Church (for ease of explanation, I'll refer to it as the Christian church) continues to shrink in' Christendom, would it not be prudent to try to grow the believers, rather than try to 'convert' the already saved?

There's the catch. Catholics don't think that non-Catholics are already saved.

Here are two current threads on that very topic.

How Can Protestants Be Saved?

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/3159872/posts

Protestants Need to Convert (and Bad Catholics need to Revert)

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/3160342/posts

39 posted on 05/31/2014 5:32:28 AM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith....)
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To: A Formerly Proud Canadian

That church has dropped a long ways since I used to go there, but that was the late 90s.


40 posted on 05/31/2014 5:32:48 AM PDT by Bulwyf
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To: metmom

Your last sentence is bang on, and if Catholics truly read and only went with what the Bible teaches they wouldn’t be Catholic.

You can point out it all day long and they’ll just dig in deeper.

For me, when Jesus died on the cross for me, it was enough, it was the perfect gift, and nothing else is needed to earn my way. I don’t pray to any dead people, I pray to Jesus himself. I don’t need any other intercessor, for Christ himself is my intercessor, and he’s the only one.


41 posted on 05/31/2014 5:39:51 AM PDT by Bulwyf
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To: Bulwyf

I realized a long time ago, that anything you add to the finished work of Christ on the cross is what you’re REALLY trusting for your salvation.

So if it’s baptism, you’re trusting the baptism to save you because Jesus won’t or can’t without it.

Same with communion, confession, penance, saying the rosary, confirmation, *corporeal works of mercy*, last rites, whatever.

Actually, the Holy Spirit also interceded for us according to the will of God. Romans 8:26- 27. So we have both on our side.

It doesn’t get any better than that. Who needs dead people praying when Jesus and the Holy Spirit themselves are praying for us?


42 posted on 05/31/2014 5:47:44 AM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith....)
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To: metmom
Catholicsism is virtually never referenced in any of the non-Catholic churches I have ever attended.

Perhaps not in word, but always in deed.

Our source of identity is being in Christ, not by who our *enemies* are, as the Catholic church bases its identity on.

Catholic identity had been well established long before protestants ever came on the scene. Not our fault protestants suffer from an inferiority complex.

And it's that elitist, snotty attitude of *we're right and y;all are going to hell because you're not Catholics* that puts the dividing wall up.

There's nothing elitist or snotty about having Truth given to us by God. It's just the way it is. The wall is a protestant invention. Put up the day protestants decided to declare non serviam as their organizing principle. Substituing their own man-made judgment for the Truth of the Roman Catholic Church. It's unfortunate. Perhaps if protestants weren't so filled with self-deifying pride and practiced some humility we might get somewhere. We can always pray.

It's Catholicism that tells the world that they have to convert or go to hell.

Unlike protestants who rebaptize Catholics or dare to put God in a man-made box by limiting His mercy in proclaiming the invicibly ignorant are going to Hell. Or the Calvinists amongst us who believe God created beings specifically for the purpose of eternal damnation. Yeah. Ok.

43 posted on 05/31/2014 5:48:09 AM PDT by JPX2011
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To: metmom
So if it’s baptism, you’re trusting the baptism to save you because Jesus won’t or can’t without it.

"Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit..." --Jesus

44 posted on 05/31/2014 5:50:01 AM PDT by St_Thomas_Aquinas ( Isaiah 22:22, Matthew 16:19, Revelation 3:7)
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To: metmom

“baptism now saves you.” —St. Paul


45 posted on 05/31/2014 5:51:50 AM PDT by St_Thomas_Aquinas ( Isaiah 22:22, Matthew 16:19, Revelation 3:7)
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To: metmom

... St. Peter


46 posted on 05/31/2014 5:53:16 AM PDT by St_Thomas_Aquinas ( Isaiah 22:22, Matthew 16:19, Revelation 3:7)
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To: metmom
We compare our beliefs to SCRIPTURE, which is the ONLY standard by which anything is to be compared.

That bastardized book protestants call scripture? I think not. That's not scripture. Nothing but man made garbage. Who gave protestants the right to throw out books of the Bible anyway? Nobody. No authority whatsoever. Only this perverted notion of self as authority.

In your dreams. Catholics wish that were the case. It makes them feel all warm and fuzzy to think that everyone is secretly jealous over them and guilt ridden for leaving the alleged *One True Church*.

Of course they are. A willful disregard for the fullness of Truth that the Holy Roman Catholic Church provides will do that to people. That's why protestants obsess about the Church. It's not so much what they stand for but what they stand against that makes up the identity of a protestant.

Faith alone and Christ alone because it's in Scripture, not because it's in opposition to Catholicism.

Prove it. Show me in scripture where it says we're saved by Faith alone.

However, thanks for the tacit admission that Catholicism teaches that salvation is not through faith alone and not through Christ alone; that what Jesus did on the cross is not good enough to save anyone.

Now whose projecting?

47 posted on 05/31/2014 5:59:34 AM PDT by JPX2011
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To: metmom

Amen!

The reason for baptism is a public confirmation of your faith in Christ. It’s something a person decides to do to show obedience to God’s will.

I never did see any babies baptized in the Bible either.

I just bought a new house. Before I moved stuff in, I prayed and asked Jesus to bless this house and everyone in it and to put his hand of protection over it.

I love how it’s so simple and I can call on him anytime.


48 posted on 05/31/2014 6:15:49 AM PDT by Bulwyf
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To: metmom
That's the only reason the guy would have turned his back on a profession of faith in Christ.

Save that nonsense for people who become Muslim, or Buddhist, or even for those "Presbyterians" who worship some entity they call "Sophia". Orthodox Catholics profess faith in Jesus Christ every bit as much as you do.

But, BTW, your whole "it never took" line of argument kind of drops "assurance of salvation" on its head. How can any Proddie really know that his "assured salvation" really "took"? Because he feels it really strongly? Maybe that's where the Mormons got their "burning in the bosom" idea?

49 posted on 05/31/2014 6:25:37 AM PDT by Campion
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To: NKP_Vet

Digging up stuff from 7 years ago. Well running dry?


50 posted on 05/31/2014 6:35:10 AM PDT by Gamecock (#BringTheAdultsBackToDC)
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