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How Hitler and Judas could end up in heaven
The Week ^ | 06/04/2014 | Damon Linker

Posted on 06/04/2014 6:52:46 AM PDT by SeekAndFind

In certain schools of Christian thought, hell is not everlasting, but a more painful form of purgatory.

M any Christians presume that hell is a place where brutally painful punishments are inflicted on evildoers for an indefinite, and perhaps infinite, amount of time in the afterlife. Think of a medieval torture chamber with no exit — or fire extinguishers.

But this, as I argued in a recent column, makes no theological sense. If morality is good, then doing the right thing must be its own reward and doing the wrong thing must be its own punishment. To think that a sinner deserves extra, externally imposed suffering presumes that morality isn't good and that those who commit evil deeds benefit from their actions — which is another way of saying that those who do the right thing are fools.

The more theologically sound position is to hold that hell is a state of being, whether in this life or the next, in which we confront our own self-imposed alienation from what is truly good — from God, in other words. This educative punishment can be extremely painful, but the pain flows intrinsically from knowledge of our own immoral acts. It isn't inflicted on us by some external tormenter.

That, at any rate, was my argument.

Let's just say that my readers weren't universally appreciative of it. A fair number of them apparently want very much to believe that a fairly large number of people are going to be made to suffer egregiously in hell for their bad behavior in life.

I suspect that these same readers, and perhaps many more, will be equally adamant that I'm wrong to follow the implications of my argument a few steps further — to assert that Christians have reason to believe that the punishments of hell, whatever they may be, are temporary for all.

That's right: I think it's likely that if there is an afterlife, everyone — even Judas, even Hitler — eventually ends up in heaven.

Now, I'm perfectly willing to concede that several Gospel passages seem to describe an eternity of damnation for at least some people in the afterlife (Matthew 7:13-14, 25:31-46; Mark 9:45-48; Luke 16:23; John 3:36). Though I'd also like to point out that only in one verse (Matthew 25:46) does Jesus speak of something that could plausibly be translated as "eternal punishment," and in words (aeonios kolasis) that could perhaps more accurately be rendered as "eternal correction."

Then there are those contrary passages that seem to imply that God wants everyone — and perhaps even all of creation — to enjoy salvation (Romans 5:18, 11:33-36; 1 Corinthians 15:22, 28; Philippians 2:10-11; Colossians 1:19-20; 2 Peter 3:9; Revelation 21:4).

This tension — not to say contradiction — has led some thinkers to dismiss or argue away the implications of the latter passages. Of all the church fathers, Tertullian may have gone furthest in this direction, writing at length and in gory detail about the endless sufferings inflicted on sinners in hell, and even suggesting that observing these torments is an important source of the bliss that accompanies salvation in heaven.

The problem with this position is that it seems to be a form of what Friedrich Nietzsche called "Christian malice": A psychological malady in which the stringent self-denial that Christianity demands of its adherents leads them to feel intense resentment for those who are insufficiently ascetic. Nietzsche delighted in showing how this dynamic can turn Christians from preachers of love into hateful fanatics out to inflict suffering on anyone who dares to enjoy life.

Not all Christians have confirmed Nietzsche's critique as perfectly as Tertullian. Others have been driven by theological reflection to move in the opposite direction — to speculate that all people might eventually enjoy salvation in heaven, no matter how awful their worldly sins may have been.

Origen in the 3rd century and Hans Urs von Balthasar in the 20th both affirmed versions of universal salvation. Yet I find the most compelling variation in the writings of the 4th-century theologian Gregory of Nyssa — a major figure in the history of Christianity, though one more widely revered today by the Eastern Orthodox than by the Western churches.

Gregory maintained that hell resembles something like what Catholics have traditionally called purgatory: A place of sometimes excruciatingly painful purgation of sins in preparation for heaven. The pain is not externally inflicted as punishment, but follows directly from the process of purification as the soul progresses toward a perhaps never fully realized union with divine perfection. Gregory describes this process as a "constant progression" or "stretching forth" (epektasis) of oneself toward an ever greater embrace of and merger with God in the fullness of eternity — a transmutation of what is sinful, fallen, and finite into the transcendent beauty of the infinite.

Hell, in this view, would be the state of agonizing struggle to break free from sin, to renounce our moral mistakes, to habituate ourselves to the good, to become ever more like God. Eastern Orthodox theologians (and, interestingly, Mormons, who hold similar views) call it a process of divination or sanctification (theosis) that follows directly from the doctrine of God's incarnation in Jesus Christ. It is a formula found in the writings of Clement of Alexandria, Athanasius, and other ancient theologians: God became a human being so that human beings might become like God.

All human beings.

One imagines that this would be a long, painful process — rendered longer and more painful for those who have fallen furthest from God during their lives. They are the ones for whom the afterlife is truly hellish — like a climb up a peak far, far higher than Mount Everest with little prior preparation or training, no expensive gear, and no Sherpas to help carry the load. But there would eventually be progress toward God, even for the climber who starts out in the worst possible shape, and from the lowest possible point in the valley below.

And at least there would be no dungeon pointlessly presided over by satanic, whip-wielding sadists.


TOPICS: Moral Issues; Theology
KEYWORDS: eschatology; heaven; hell; hitler; immortality; judas; theodicy
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1 posted on 06/04/2014 6:52:46 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
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To: SeekAndFind

I used a simalar exercise with my religious ed kids back in the day. It is a very interesting topic. It was right after 9/11.


2 posted on 06/04/2014 6:57:23 AM PDT by defconw (Well now what?)
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To: SeekAndFind
I think it's likely that if there is an afterlife, everyone — even Judas, even Hitler — eventually ends up in heaven

The unexamined assumption in much writing on this subject is that there are two alternatives: (1) eternal torment, or (2) eventual salvation for all. This leaves unconsidered the possibility that immortality is not inherent, but is a gift of God for the redeemed (Rom. 6:23), and that those who are not redeemed are eventually destroyed.

3 posted on 06/04/2014 6:58:17 AM PDT by Genoa (Starve the beast.)
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To: SeekAndFind
Ah, the old apokatastasis canard.
4 posted on 06/04/2014 6:59:15 AM PDT by wideawake
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To: SeekAndFind

I remember being taught that one can never know of the possibility of repentant thought just at the moment of death. I don’t believe some of those people were capable of it...but only God knows..


5 posted on 06/04/2014 7:00:10 AM PDT by Don Corleone ("Oil the gun..eat the cannoli. Take it to the Mattress.")
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To: Genoa
This leaves unconsidered the possibility that immortality is not inherent, but is a gift of God for the redeemed (Rom. 6:23), and that those who are not redeemed are eventually destroyed.

Amen. This also would include the possibility that they could be reincarnated as rats or Obama supporters, forever dependent on the industry of their betters. But I repeat myself.

6 posted on 06/04/2014 7:00:39 AM PDT by Vigilanteman (Obama: Fake black man. Fake Messiah. Fake American. How many fakes can you fit in one Zer0?)
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To: Genoa

RE: that those who are not redeemed are eventually destroyed.

If you are destroyed, how can you be tormented forever?

Revelation 20:10

And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


7 posted on 06/04/2014 7:01:11 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
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To: SeekAndFind

from memory:

It is better for that man if he had never been born

straight is the way, narrow is the gate and few there be that find it

no one comes to the Father but by me

The guy who wrote that article is spewing garbage


8 posted on 06/04/2014 7:02:41 AM PDT by RatRipper (The political left are utterly evil and corrupt)
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To: SeekAndFind

For anyone to say, “This is how God handles the afterlife”, is the ultimate in hubris.


9 posted on 06/04/2014 7:02:43 AM PDT by onedoug
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To: SeekAndFind

I completely disagree. Hell is for those who reject God in this life, and thus will live without Him in the next. We condemn ourselves to Hell by choosing to reject God’s will, in favor of our own, as well as our unwillingness to love our neighbor.

Fortunately, the Eternal Sacrifice of Jesus on the cross has redeemed all mankind, for eternity, but requires us to accept that gift, freely given.

I will save Purgatory for another day.


10 posted on 06/04/2014 7:02:50 AM PDT by SpirituTuo
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To: SeekAndFind

Quasi-Universalism from a New Republic hack. I’ll give it all the consideration it merits.


11 posted on 06/04/2014 7:04:53 AM PDT by Dr. Thorne ("How long, O Lord, holy and true?" - Rev. 6:10)
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To: SeekAndFind

Total foolishness. Heaven for all? This is universalism. “IT IS A NARROW PATH”

And it is not the atrocities of Hitler and the betrayal of Judas which land them in hell, it is their suicide. Any crime can be forgiven, but a final act of evil without any space for repentance condemns one to hell.


12 posted on 06/04/2014 7:05:38 AM PDT by Viennacon
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To: RatRipper

~~~It is better for that man if he had never been born~~~

Correct


13 posted on 06/04/2014 7:07:22 AM PDT by F15Eagle (1Jn4:15;5:4-5,11-13;Mt27:50-54;Mk15:33-34;Jn3:17-18,6:69,11:25,14:6,20:31;Ro10:8-11;1Tm2:5-6;Ti3:4-7)
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To: SeekAndFind

...so the traitor, the thief, and the genocidal maniac all walk up to the Pearly Gates, and Saint Peter says to the bartender...


14 posted on 06/04/2014 7:09:56 AM PDT by Buckeye McFrog
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To: SpirituTuo
That's what I was a taught and taught the kids. We choose Heaven or Hell. The discussion can get pretty far into the weeds. But given the right circumstances it is an interesting philosophical thinking exercise.
15 posted on 06/04/2014 7:10:55 AM PDT by defconw (Well now what?)
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To: SeekAndFind
If you are destroyed, how can you be tormented forever?

Literally, an extended torment “into the ages of the ages” (eis tous aionas ton aionon) is promised to Satan, the beast, and the false prophet (Rev. 20:10). Jesus speaks of the soul being destroyed in gehenna (Matt. 10:28).
16 posted on 06/04/2014 7:12:12 AM PDT by Genoa (Starve the beast.)
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To: SeekAndFind

This is apparently a very theologically ignorant writer. The Bible is pretty clear about this. Salvation has nothing to do with you “doing good” or morality as we know it. Salvation is about what you do with Jesus Christ and His sacrifice for our sins. If you repent and accept his atoning sacrifice, you will be saved. If not, you won’t. And the Bible tells us that those who do NOT accept salvation by His grace and His blood, whose names are not written in the Lamb’s Book of Life, will ultimately be cast into the Lake of Fire, prepared for the Devil and his angels, “where their worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched”.

This author seems to believe that people are saved by their morality or good works, and are condemned by their immorality or evil works. Wrong. You are saved by turning to Christ and accepting HIS sacrifice. If you don’t, you are already condemned.

Now, if you turn to Christ and live for Him, then you will do good and shun evil, but that is an outcome of your salvation - it is not the reason for it.


17 posted on 06/04/2014 7:13:10 AM PDT by CA Conservative (Texan by birth, Californian by circumstance)
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To: SeekAndFind

“In certain schools of Christian thought, hell is not everlasting, but a more painful form of purgatory.”

“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.” Matthew 25:41


18 posted on 06/04/2014 7:13:30 AM PDT by Politicalkiddo (The more helpless the victim, the more hideous the assault.)
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To: Genoa

RE: Literally, an extended torment “into the ages of the ages” (eis tous aionas ton aionon) is promised to Satan, the beast, and the false prophet (Rev. 20:10). Jesus speaks of the soul being destroyed in gehenna (Matt. 10:28).

So, what was the rich man doing asking Abraham to send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool his tongue, saying he is tormented in this flame? (Luke 16:19-31)


19 posted on 06/04/2014 7:15:58 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
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To: defconw
Well... it's also a theory for those who don't take the Bible very seriously:

"And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If any one worships the beast and its image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also shall drink the wine of God's wrath, poured unmixed into the cup of his anger, and he shall be tormented with fire and sulphur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up for ever and ever; and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name." (Revelation 14:9-11)

Then he will answer them, `Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.' [46] And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." (Matthew 25:45-46)

Not to sound snarky, but: who should you believe? Modernist theologians, or some mere itinerant preacher in 1st century Palestine Who happened to be God?
20 posted on 06/04/2014 7:17:17 AM PDT by paladinan (Rule #1: There is a God. Rule #2: It isn't you.)
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To: SeekAndFind
There's no argument in this man's writings that won't be answered in the coming Judgment. Romans 1 talks about the reprobate mind. It is a mind that is unable to understand either spiritual truth, or comprehend what is godly. This article demonstrates the perfect example of the reprobate mind.
21 posted on 06/04/2014 7:17:59 AM PDT by righttackle44 (Take scalps. Leave the bodies as a warning.)
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To: paladinan; defconw; SeekAndFind

Whoops! Replied to the wrong person... sorry!


22 posted on 06/04/2014 7:19:33 AM PDT by paladinan (Rule #1: There is a God. Rule #2: It isn't you.)
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To: paladinan

OK, :)


23 posted on 06/04/2014 7:20:51 AM PDT by defconw (Well now what?)
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To: SpirituTuo

Yep. Hell is a choice and we all have to make that choice. This tripe is from someone that says, “God is love and no loving God would ever do something so cruel as to send someone to hell forever.” That God is love is certainly true. But that is not all that God is. God is absolute justice as well and that is the basis for the possibility of eternal hell. He explicitly gave grounds for someone to be consigned to hell. Among them is the one sin that God will not forgive, ever. That is a final, irrevocable rejection of what God offers us - His Son as our saviour, lord and master.


24 posted on 06/04/2014 7:21:47 AM PDT by 17th Miss Regt
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To: Politicalkiddo
eternal fire

A lot hinges on getting behind the Hebraic concept of an olam, Greek aion. The word translated "everlasting" or "eternal" is aionios. An aion is an age or an epoch, and the adjective can be considered "age-long" or "age-abiding." The noted scholar of New Testament Greek, the late Nigel Turner, Ph.D, says: “It would be imprecise to translate aionios as ‘eternal.’ It means ‘belonging to the future age or dispensation’” (Christian Words, T & T Clark, 1980, pp. 452, 455, 456).

25 posted on 06/04/2014 7:22:48 AM PDT by Genoa (Starve the beast.)
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To: SeekAndFind

Demon Linker is a leftist thinker. If you wonder how progressive thought has deformed and redefined Christianity, you can read Linker to see how it has come about.

Linker sees Christianity through the liberal prism: everything is false and distorted. The lens through which he looks is colored by liberal notions of racism, homosexuality, identity politics and progressive “social justice”. “Christian” liberals ignore what does not conform to their groupthink.

In this article, for example, Linker completely ignores what Jesus Christ and Christian scripture says repeatedly about life after death and who may enter Heaven and who may not. There will be a separation of wheat from chaff, of goats from sheep, and the weeds will burn for eternity.

God makes the rules. And from what the Holy Bible says, universalism is not what God has ordained for us.

As with all liberals (including this liberal in sheep’s clothing) his “truth” is based on false premise.

Don’t look for Hitler or Judas in Heaven.


26 posted on 06/04/2014 7:23:35 AM PDT by JT Hatter (Who is Barack Obama? And What is He Really Up To?)
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To: SeekAndFind

I would substitute ‘monotheistic malice’ for Christian malice’.

While I can fully understand the purpose/need for the concept of hell, I don’t see how it can actually serve any purpose, unless we come back in another body, with the previous memories.

Myself, I don’t believe anything man can do for his 70-80 yrs on this planet would deserve any afterlife punishment, especially an eternity of it.


27 posted on 06/04/2014 7:26:47 AM PDT by redhawk.44mag (The problem with the world today, is that it wants to be digital, but it's really analog)
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To: SeekAndFind
The parable of the rich man and Lazarus is a story, designed to teach a lesson, in this case about faith and justice. The details of a parable must not be pressed. In this case, we would have to conclude that heaven and hell are within sight and shouting distance of each other, and people can converse between the two, also that Lazarus was literally reclining next to Abraham.

28 posted on 06/04/2014 7:27:43 AM PDT by Genoa (Starve the beast.)
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To: SpirituTuo

I completely agree with this… Salvation requires a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and Christianity provides many ways to achieve this..

At its root this argument is not a new one and is simply a denial of the existence of Satan and his minions (his oldest and most successful lie) If there is no Hell, then the father of lies that has dominion over the lost is a figment of medieval artists ( his article even hints at this) It is a classic pseudo enlightened argument that there is no fallen angel who wills the destruction of man. We are only subject to our own foibles that we can can talk ourselves out of if given a sufficient time of reflection.

The author of this piece appears to be greatly deceived by the oldest lie in the book and even worse is trying to lead any souls who will believe him down the road to perdition.


29 posted on 06/04/2014 7:27:45 AM PDT by longfellowsmuse (last of the living nomads)
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To: SeekAndFind
As far as being destroyed is concerned, the destruction would follow the torment.

30 posted on 06/04/2014 7:29:00 AM PDT by Genoa (Starve the beast.)
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To: Don Corleone

Someone taught you something that only God knows? Did you ask them how they knew?


31 posted on 06/04/2014 7:29:17 AM PDT by redhawk.44mag (The problem with the world today, is that it wants to be digital, but it's really analog)
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To: SeekAndFind

Luke 16:19-31

This is all anybody needs to know about Hell and how permanent it really is. The Rich Man (notice Christ doesn’t even mention his name) was doomed for eternity—he knew it. Which is why he was so desperate that somebody tell his then living relatives what to do in order to avoid his situation.

I can’t think of a more horrible place than a hell where God is totally devoid and brutality reigns supreme. For those, who deny it’s existence (But more importantly Christ’s Redeeming Saving Power), just know that you are a car wreck or heart attack away from experiencing exactly what this “rich man” and countless billions of others are experiencing.


32 posted on 06/04/2014 7:30:05 AM PDT by Roman_War_Criminal (Bible Summary in a few verses: John 14:6, John 6:29, Romans 10:9-10)
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To: SeekAndFind

In certain schools of Christian thought, hell is not everlasting, but a more painful form of purgatory.


Um, hell is thrown into the lake of fire. And the fate of the damned is eternal. The question is, are they alive and feeling pain during that eternity. Some of us argue that the fate of the saved is everlasting life and its opposite would be everlasting death. That is, you die and stay dead, forever. Which is why the fate of the lost is called eternal, and called death, destruction, perish, etc.

Just pointing out that one thing...


33 posted on 06/04/2014 7:30:07 AM PDT by cuban leaf
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To: CA Conservative

.....Or begin by believing in God, you are on your way to salvation.


34 posted on 06/04/2014 7:30:31 AM PDT by Biggirl (“Go, do not be afraid, and serve”-Pope Francis)
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To: Genoa
The noted scholar of New Testament Greek, the late Nigel Turner, Ph.D, says: “It would be imprecise to translate aionios as ‘eternal.’ It means ‘belonging to the future age or dispensation’” (Christian Words, T & T Clark, 1980, pp. 452, 455, 456).

I'm afraid the good doctor was being a bit illogical... since the very same word ("aionion" = objective case) is used in the very same verse (Matthew 25:46) to describe "ETERNAL punishment" ("kolasin aionion") and "ETERNAL life" ("zoen aionion")! Unless he's suggesting that neither hell nor HEAVEN are eternal (i.e. if he's saying that there's no such thing as eternal life, but only "life for an epoch or age"), his idea needs some correction, I think.
35 posted on 06/04/2014 7:35:10 AM PDT by paladinan (Rule #1: There is a God. Rule #2: It isn't you.)
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To: Genoa

This parable happened before the Crucifixion and subsequent Resurrection. Heaven’s Gates were opened upon Jesus’ finished work on the cross to those who were in Paradise (Or Abraham’s bosom).

Therefore, those confined in Hades cannot see nor converse any longer with those who were in Paradise.


36 posted on 06/04/2014 7:35:44 AM PDT by Roman_War_Criminal (Bible Summary in a few verses: John 14:6, John 6:29, Romans 10:9-10)
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To: SeekAndFind

Why would a man who rejected God in life begin to love Him in death while experiencing His pent-up wrath? Natural men alive on Earth have no ability to stop sinning, what evidence is there dead men in Hell have such an ability?

I believe the Bible clearly teaches Hell is forever. All those not in Christ will experience God’s wrath for their sin forever. What that really looks like I can only imagine. All I know is that the cup of His wrath will be perfectly measured and just in proportion with their sin and that all rebels will be made to drink the wine of His fury to the dregs.

“For in the hand of the Lord there is a cup with foaming wine, well mixed,
and he pours out from it, and all the wicked of the earth shall drain it down to the dregs.”
—Psalm 75:8


37 posted on 06/04/2014 7:35:50 AM PDT by .45 Long Colt
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To: SeekAndFind

I am good with it.
If the worst can repent and be forgiven, maybe I can, too.


38 posted on 06/04/2014 7:36:05 AM PDT by Little Ray (How did I end up in this hand-basket, and why is it getting so hot?)
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To: SeekAndFind

Interesting.


39 posted on 06/04/2014 7:36:32 AM PDT by TBP (Obama lies, Granny dies.)
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To: SeekAndFind

Revelation 20:10

And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


This is about man, not the “devil”. And you quoted Revelation. It is one of my favorite books of the bible, but it is very, VERY symbolic in its language. I never use it as a primary proof of anything, but as supporting other biblical proofs.

I don’t believe churches are literal lamstands.


40 posted on 06/04/2014 7:37:25 AM PDT by cuban leaf
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To: redhawk.44mag; Admin Moderator
I would substitute ‘monotheistic malice’ for Christian malice’.

I'm getting tired of athiests on FR. Seems like we're getting more and more of them. Seems like there is a coordinated effort to push athiesm on FR, or at least post a lot of athiest spam.

I understand having debate, but I don't have the time or inclination to endlessly debate athiests.

If I did, I'd be on athiest forums debating with them.

But it's nonsensical to debate with people who not debating, they're just posting athiest nonsense as fast as they can.

What's the FR policy on athiesm ?
41 posted on 06/04/2014 7:37:53 AM PDT by PieterCasparzen (We have to fix things ourselves)
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To: RatRipper

from memory:

It is better for that man if he had never been born

straight is the way, narrow is the gate and few there be that find it

no one comes to the Father but by me

The guy who wrote that article is spewing garbage


Though I disagree with the writer in a few places, I’d not call it garbage. And it is better for a man who lives this life but is destroyed at the Great White Throne judgement if he had never been born.


42 posted on 06/04/2014 7:39:16 AM PDT by cuban leaf
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To: 17th Miss Regt

Indeed! The mistake that a lot of people make is that they think sin eventually gets them into hell.

Ron Graham (RIP) wrote a spellbinding article on hell a few years ago.

Jesus is our only lifeline out of that horror.

https://www.raptureready.com/featured/graham/g146.html


43 posted on 06/04/2014 7:40:22 AM PDT by Roman_War_Criminal (Bible Summary in a few verses: John 14:6, John 6:29, Romans 10:9-10)
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To: paladinan

I think Turner only means to suggest that “aionian” or “age-abiding” must be allowed to have a rather broad meaning based on just what is being asserted in the context.


44 posted on 06/04/2014 7:40:33 AM PDT by Genoa (Starve the beast.)
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To: Politicalkiddo

Yep. The fire is eternal. But ONLY the fire is described as eternal. The fate of those thrown into it is that they are burned up. The fire is all consuming. If those thrown into it are not consumed, the fire is not all consuming.


45 posted on 06/04/2014 7:40:44 AM PDT by cuban leaf
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To: SpirituTuo

I completely disagree. Hell is for those who reject God in this life, and thus will live without Him in the next.


For how long? Only those that accept Christ are promised eternal life.


46 posted on 06/04/2014 7:41:27 AM PDT by cuban leaf
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To: SpirituTuo
Hell is for those who reject God in this life, and thus will live without Him in the next.

Be careful. Those who die in their sins, even though they will be 'resurrected unto damnation' (Daniel 12:2, John 5:29), will NEVER 'live' again. They will exist, but the Bible uses the word live/life (eternal life) for those who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ in this life.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. (John 5:24)
Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? (John 11:25,26)

The believer 'never dies' (his spirit lives, though the flesh dies). The unbeliever's dead spirit is resurrected and that damnable creature, fully deserving of the just punishment God will impose, will be tormented forever in the lake of fire. See Revelation 20, 21.

We condemn ourselves to Hell by choosing to reject God’s will, in favor of our own, as well as our unwillingness to love our neighbor.

God's will is that we all come to the knowledge of the truth and trust in the finished work of Jesus Christ. Those who trust in their own righteousness to save them (and there are many we perceive as 'good people' who are sadly trusting in their own works) will spend eternity in hell with Hitler and Judas.

We should love our neighbor. But that doesn't mean we are to love those who hate God. God will chastise us for that error.

And Jehoshaphat the king of Judah returned to his house in peace to Jerusalem. 2And Jehu the son of Hanani the seer went out to meet him, and said to king Jehoshaphat, Shouldest thou help the ungodly, and love them that hate the LORD? therefore is wrath upon thee from before the LORD. 3Nevertheless there are good things found in thee, in that thou hast taken away the groves out of the land, and hast prepared thine heart to seek God. (2 Chronicles 19:1-3)

47 posted on 06/04/2014 7:42:00 AM PDT by nonsporting
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To: SeekAndFind

So, what was the rich man doing asking Abraham to send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool his tongue, saying he is tormented in this flame? (Luke 16:19-31)


This might clarify it:

http://jeremyandchristine.com/articles/lazarus.html


48 posted on 06/04/2014 7:42:58 AM PDT by cuban leaf
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To: paladinan

Another point that needs to be made is that there can be a difference between “everlasting punishment” and “everlasting torment.” The punishment can be construed to be irreversible destruction.


49 posted on 06/04/2014 7:43:19 AM PDT by Genoa (Starve the beast.)
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To: PieterCasparzen

“Atheists” can be conservative too—you’d be surprised actually.


50 posted on 06/04/2014 7:43:40 AM PDT by Roman_War_Criminal (Bible Summary in a few verses: John 14:6, John 6:29, Romans 10:9-10)
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