Skip to comments.A Rabbi Cross-Examines Christianity (Jews For Jesus, Messianic Jewish Christians, Michael Brown)
Posted on 06/08/2014 8:26:19 PM PDT by Phinneous
Jews defending Judaism with the best defense...
This is 77 minutes long, but Jews-- give a listen. Christians-- I know some Freepers are very-well-versed in OT and NT, AND in counter-refuting Jews for Judaism doctrine. Care to refute?
I’ll listen later, but if Jesus didn’t rise from the dead would Saul have become Paul and thousands of Believers die as martyrs in the roman arenas?
He’s an idiot. I skipped a little forward here and there and started listening to sections of his presentation. He doesn’t know as much as he thinks he knows.
Christ was exactly who he claimed to be or he was THE largest Hoax ever perpetrated on the entire recorded history of Humankind.
Why parse the NT?
Why argue with someone who does?
So, the fact that this guy doesn't provide the context of the situation and strongly implies (well, outright states) a result different from what actually happened makes me question his motives and honesty.
You should question his motives. He’s not very honest intellectually. He’s not very precise either.
Does he address Isaiah 53?
Jews for Judaism? Welcome to Christianity disguised as Judaism and have a ham sandwich!
Also, Psalm 22, Daniel 9, Zech 12. Those are just off the top of my head.
Eveybody needs a rabbi. The Christians and Esau have their defied, renegade (in a good way), rappin’ rabbi and the Jews and Jacob have their own.
2.2 billion-strong hoax?
The CLAIM is the whole class. He strives to prove that Jesus himself didn’t claim to be son of G-d, and that, for instance, where he says “I and the Father are one” is one of many mistranslations. In this case, “one” being from a Greek word meaning “at or as one.”
And after establishing Jesus’ authentic Torah Judaism, he tries to show the apostles as increasingly open to absorbing new ideas and customs (pagan, for instance) to increase follower-ship, and as increasingly anti-semitic to make a distinction.
Lastly, he touts standard Jewish orthodoxy (Maimonedes, etc) that Christianity and Islam are part of G-d’s plan to “format” the entire world for monotheism (well, except for the pesky Hindus and Buddhists.)
I for one, see the logic and agree with him completely. But I’m sure there are Christian soldiers and special forces in Free Republic who know all of the wiley rabbi’s tricks...
No doubt, his motives are to refute all of Christendom. No sarcasm at all...
Do we LOL and smiley on FR?
He also implies that Jesus is dead and did not rise from the dead as a basis for that part of his talk, when in reality Jesus rose on the third day, a fact known to His apostles by merit of the fact that He appeared and spoke to them repeatedly after His resurrection, and ascended into heaven after a short time, in full view of His apostles.
Jews throughout the ages have argues with Christians over the proof-texts you bring. We even keep the Christian chapter and verse in our own books of the Bible as a convention for arguing. Your questions are all addressed at length on Jews for Judaism website (as classes and some as essays) but I’m sure, as was the basis for my post (besides for galvanizing the stalwart Freeper Jews,) that there are counter-counter arguments to all of the classes on specific “Proof-of-Jesus-in-Jewish-scripture arguments here:
(scroll down to the lower left of the page)
As for Judaism in general, it is so filled with stupid oral traditions that I actually even consider it worse than the absurdities of Mormonism. For example:
From the Babylonian Talmud, the earth, and even heaven must bow to the majority decision of the Rabbis:
"If a man made an oven out of separate coils [of clay, placing one upon another], then put sand between each of the coils  such an oven, R. Eliezer declared, is not susceptible to defilement, while the sages declared it susceptible.
It is taught: On that day R. Eliezer brought forward every imaginable argument, but the Sages did not accept any of them. Finally he said to them: "If the Halakhah (religious law) is in accordance with me, let this carob tree prove it!" Sure enough the carob tree immediately uprooted itself and moved one hundred cubits, and some say 400 cubits, from its place. "No proof can be brought from a carob tree," they retorted.
And again he said to them "If the Halakhah agrees with me, let the channel of water prove it!" Sure enough, the channel of water flowed backward. "No proof can be brought from a channel of water," they rejoined.
Again he urged, "If the Halakhah agrees with me, let the walls of the house of study prove it!" Sure enough, the walls tilted as if to fall. But R. Joshua, rebuked the walls, saying, "When disciples of the wise are engaged in a halakhic dispute, what right have you to interfere?" Hence in deference to R. Joshua they did not fall and in deference to R. Eliezer they did not resume their upright position; they are still standing aslant.
Again R. Eliezer then said to the Sages, "If the Halakhah agrees with me, let it be proved from heaven." Sure enough, a divine voice cried out, "Why do you dispute with R. Eliezer, with whom the Halakhah always agrees?" R. Joshua stood up and protested: "The Torah is not in heaven!" (Deut. 30:12). We pay no attention to a divine voice because long ago at Mount Sinai You wrote in your Torah at Mount Sinai, `After the majority must one incline'. (Ex. 23:2)"
R. Nathan met [the prophet] Elijah  and asked him, "What did the Holy One do at that moment?" Elijah: "He laughed [with joy], saying, 'My children have defeated Me, My children have defeated Me.'" (Babylonian Talmud, Baba Metzia 59b, http://jhom.com/topics/voice/bat_kol_bab.htm)
From the Zohar, Chapter 6, Portion Noach, titled: If Adam had not sinned, he would not have begotten any offspring.
"35. Come and behold: if Adam had brought generations with him from the Garden of Eden, they would have lived for generations. And the light of the moon, WHICH REFERS TO THE LIGHT OF MALCHUT, would have never been darkened. And all would have lived forever; and not even the angels above could have stood before them and borne their light, brilliance and wisdom. As it is written: In the image of Elohim He created him (Beresheet 1:27). But because he was the cause of the sin, he had to leave the Garden of Eden and bear children outside. So his generations did not last BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT FIT.
Rabbi Chizkiyah then asked: How could they have begotten offspring there IN THE GARDEN OF EDEN? Had the Evil Inclination not been drawn down on him and he sinned, he would have dwelled alone in the world and would have not begotten any offspring! The same applies to Yisrael; had they not sinned by the golden calf and drawn upon themselves the Evil Inclination AFTER ACCEPTING THE TORAH, they also would have never borne any offspring, and no new generations would have come into the world. The main point is that the power of mating derives mainly from the Evil Inclination. So without the Evil Inclination there can be no offspring.
He said to him: Had Adam not sinned, he would not have borne offspring from the side of the Evil Inclination, but he would have borne them from the side of the Holy Spirit. But because he produced offspring only from the side of the Evil Inclination, all the offspring of mankind are born from the side of the Evil Inclination. They have no permanent existence therefore, because the Other Side has been mixed with them.
But if Adam had not sinned and had not been driven out of the Garden of Eden, he would have begotten offspring from the side of the Spirit of the holy of holies. And they would have been as the supreme angels, and lived generations upon generations as angels do above. THIS MEANS THAT THERE ARE TWO KINDS OF MATING: ONE IS THE SPIRITUAL MATING OF THE ANGELS; THE SECOND IS THE MATING OF YESOD FOR THE SOULS. THAT NEED FOR THE EVIL INCLINATION RELATES ONLY TO THE MATING OF YESOD AND NOT TO THE SPIRITUAL MATING THAT COMES FROM THE SIDE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. But because he sinned and begot children outside the Garden of Eden and he did not merit to beget them in the Garden of Eden, therefore they did not survive even only to take root in this world until Noah came and went into the ark. And from the ark all descending generations of mankind emerged and spread to all four corners of the earth" (Zohar, Chapter 6, Portion Noach If Adam had not sinned, he would not have begotten any offspring.)
The Rabbis take the time to explain how to properly urinate (not supposed to touch your willy):
"R. Zera also said: I saw R. Abbahu put his hand near his buttocks,2 but do not know whether he touched them or not. It is obvious that he did not touch them, for it was taught, R. Eliezer said: He who holds his membrum and passes water is as though he brought a flood upon the world?" (Babylonian Talmud, Shabbath 41a)
Rather than lecturing us on the Old Testament or criticizing the New, religious Jews should wonder why God brought the Temple and Jerusalem to ruin in 70AD, which still today is trampled upon by non-Jews, exactly as Christ and the Prophet Daniel predicted.
Hey, he did at least give the benefit of the doubt and preface that we would take Acts as truthful for the purpose of the discussion... So give him a break for that.
Jews don’t believe any of it, he’s just cross-examining. No hidden tricks here— I want counter-arguments to see if we Jews have the ready-answers to them.
Roger that— apostles saw resurrection.
Were the Marx Brothers a bunch of Jewish comedians? You bet!
It all started with Yitzak (Isaac) which means in Hebrew, “he laughs.”
“I could probably do it the best”
I knew you were in the back of my mind when I posted this :)
But alas, we’re both waiting and waiting, right? First coming, second coming... it’s been a loooong time. We do believe in a 3rd, eternal temple you know, right?
You quoted one of the most beautiful stories in the Talmud, Rabbi Eliezar ben Hurkanus. He was actually excommunicated. Did you know that? Not for being wrong by the way... By the way, the whole story is part of a theme that there is G-d’s law in it’s absolute, and G-d’s law in it’s subjective application. Very deep subject to transcribe...
So if you care to, Christian SpecOps warrior, the Rabbi’s first claim is that Jesus was a Torah-observant Jew who did not explicitly call himself G-d (or a god, or whatever.) And that this was adjunct by the apostles. Thoughts?
The Rabbi sees but does not see, hears but does not hear. Yet he knows all things. I had two such rabbis/professors in grad school years ago (at a very large midwestern state university), at least one of whom is very well known today.
More than just the apostles saw Him:
According to Luke, 1. To Cleopas and his companion (24,13-31). 2. To Simon (Peter) (34). 3. To the eleven and others (36). According to John, 1. To Mary Magdalene (20,14-18). 2. To ten disciples (19-24). 3. To the eleven (26-29). 4. To Peter,John and others (21). According to Paul,
1. “He was seen of Cephas.” 2. “Then of the twelve.” 3. “After that,he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once.” 4. “After that he was seen of James.” 5. “Then of all the apostles.” 6. “And last of all he was seen of me also.” Answer According to 1 Corinthians 15:5-8,Paul indicated that over 500 believers together at once saw Christ alive,of whom most were still living at the time of writing,therefore their testimony could be verified. Besides this,Paul had indicated that Peter and the twelve (included Matthias,who replaced Judas Iscariot) had seen Him,then repeats that all the Apostles had seen Him. For 40 days,Christ had been seen,having eaten with the believers and having had contact physically with them,notably with Thomas,who doubted the reality of the resurrected Christ,until he met Him and touched Him.
A Gentile can be grafted onto the vine, however.
So he’s using the same excuses/reasoning that the priests and authorities used at the time of Jesus’ resurrection? How original...
And three million Jews saw the giving of the Torah at Mt. Sinai.
If you have ever read C.S. Lewis, you might have come across a phrase that went something like this...
~ He was either just who he said he was, the Christ, or He was a total lunatic, like someone who thought he was a fried egg ~
I have made my choice. The rest of you have been given free will to make your own.
I just wish I could be less a sinner than I am, so cast no stones in anyone else’s direction.
Yes, I think that is a most accurate assessment. I’m certain Jews would rather Christians be right than any other rival religion, since Christianity by its nature totally affirms Judaism as written, just outdates it. Also, no more dietary restrictions :D
“For they (the Jews) being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.” (Romans 10:3)
“For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.” (James 2:10)
Since no one can save himself by perfectly keeping the law, we must have a savior or there is no hope.
I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: Im ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I dont accept his claim to be God. That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman or something worse. You can shut him up for a fool, you can spit at him and kill him as a demon or you can fall at his feet and call him Lord and God, but let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about his being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.
Your comment might have been a nice contribution if it weren’t smarmy and deliberately insulting.
Name names....if I don’t know their denomination, I can’t tell you if it’s in the same ballpark. Were they Reconstructionist? Conservative? Orthodox?
A gentile can live a righteous life according to G-d’s will and his 7 commandments for non-Jews:
Hence the stupidity of Jewish oral tradition. You can get excommunicated for being right, and yet we must accept their boasting and their truth claims?
By the way, the whole story is part of a theme that there is G-ds law in its absolute, and G-ds law in its subjective application.
It wasn't subjective. God spoke out of heaven and said Eliezar was correct. This is not part of a theme about God's law, but a part of the theme that the Rabbis are something like Demi-Gods, with rights even above God.
Scripturally, a majority of the Jews and their Rabbis have rarely been right, and have instead been condemned by Moses on down as a stiff necked and rebellious people, to whom the covenant was conditional and, inevitably, be put away for a better covenant.
But alas, were both waiting and waiting, right? First coming, second coming... its been a loooong time. We do believe in a 3rd, eternal temple you know, right?
We wait in peace, as the prophecies have been fulfilled. You wait in silence, or you comfort yourselves with the superstitious nonsense and the protections against them taught by your Rabbis, such as giving your kids epilepsy if you have sex with your wife too soon after going to the bathroom (a demon is hooked on you):
"The Rabbis taught: 'On coming from a privy (outdoor toilet) a man should not have sexual intercourse till he has waited long enough to walk half a mile, because the demon of the privy is with him for that time; if he does, his children will be epileptic.'" (Babylonian Talmud, Gittin 70a)
So if you care to, Christian SpecOps warrior, the Rabbis first claim is that Jesus was a Torah-observant Jew who did not explicitly call himself G-d (or a god, or whatever.) And that this was adjunct by the apostles. Thoughts?
Christ very clearly claimed to be God, accepted worship, was called God to His face, forgave sins, and even called himself the Lord of the Sabbath day (after disregarding the Pharisees' teachings on the matter), and was accused by the Jews of claiming to be God:
"Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by." (Joh 8:56-59)
Exo 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you
The Greek of John also agrees with the Greek of the Septuagint's translation of Exo 3:14.
He accepted worship:
Mat 28:9 And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.
Accused by the Jews:
"But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God." (Joh 5:17-18)
Told to His face:
"And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed." (Joh 20:28-29)
Forgive sins, leading the scribes to accuse Him of blasphemy:
"And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee. And, behold, certain of the scribes said within themselves, This man blasphemeth." (Mat 9:2-3)
Declares himself Lord of the Sabbath day:
"And it came to pass, that he went through the corn fields on the sabbath day; and his disciples began, as they went, to pluck the ears of corn. And the Pharisees said unto him, Behold, why do they on the sabbath day that which is not lawful? And he said unto them, Have ye never read what David did, when he had need, and was an hungred, he, and they that were with him? How he went into the house of God in the days of Abiathar the high priest, and did eat the shewbread, which is not lawful to eat but for the priests, and gave also to them which were with him? And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath: Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath." (Mar 2:23-28)
I think (and it’s actually halachically-derrived Jewish law) that we prefer Islam, when they’re not killing us.
It’s all dogmatic, though... like it says, Christians Good.
From whomever answered rabbi chizkiyah:
“... . But because he produced offspring only from the side of the Evil Inclination,all the offspring of mankind are born from the side of the Evil Inclination. They have no permanent existence therefore,because the Other Side has been mixed with them. ....”
Sounds like the passages dealing with original sin, I.E. the consequences of Adam and Eve disobeying G-d:
Psalms 51:5 - Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
Romans 5:12 - Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Given that all mankind are in such a state of sin, does it not then follow that some one completely outside the influence of sin would then be qualified to effect a solution to the problem?
“we prefer Islam, when theyre not killing us.”
Ummm, is that ever?
Best proof for a Christian is that there has been NO TEMPLE AND NO PLACE FOR sacrifice for about 2000 years.
The last sacrifice was Jesus on the cross, even though the people went through the motions of sacrifice for another 40 years.
God gave the people in the desert 40 years. When Christ died he gave Israel 40 years to change, then Titus destroyed their place of sacrifice.
James was so right! Wow! I’m not kidding.... when he apparently says “...and yet offended in one point....”
We totally believe that with one fault, a person is judged completely wicked. The good news is he can repent fully in an instant. So we don’t agree with James on the rest of...probably everything.
Your first part from Romans, is right in line with what the Rabbi was teaching in the class...if you can’t convert them, smear them. We’re pretty content that we know what G-d wants of us (He for one wants me to go to bed...but I just can’t.)
Like I said to Greetings_Puny_Humans, we’ve both been waiting a long time, ey? Our real prophets have told us Jews that the service of our lips replaces the sacrifices (for now) and repentance can be done in an instant. Jews have laws for everything (even how to pee, as GPH points out sarcastically but truthfully, without being able to fathom the reasons, ever)
On repentance, the way for a Jew:
29 If you have ever read C.S. Lewis, you might have come across a phrase that went something like this...
~ He was either just who he said he was, the Christ, or He was a total lunatic, like someone who thought he was a fried egg ~ I have made my choice. The rest of you have been given free will to make your own.
33 I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: Im ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I dont accept his claim to be God. That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman or something worse. You can shut him up for a fool, you can spit at him and kill him as a demon or you can fall at his feet and call him Lord and God, but let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about his being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.
1898 1963 C.S. Lewis: British novelist, poet, academic, medievalist, literary critic, essayist, lay theologian, and Christian apologist. He died in Oxford, England, on the same day, 11/22/1963, but before, POTUS #35 JFK was assassinated in Dallas, TX. Fellow British author, Aldous Huxley (Brave New World, © 1932), passed away in Los Angeles, CA, later on the same day after Kennedys assassination. Huxley had taught British author George Orwell at Eton.
Mere Christianity, by C.S. Lewis, p54-56, © 1952
Lewis's trilemma is an argument intended to prove the divinity of Jesus. It was the proposal of a trilemma (mentioned by others the previous century) that was popularised by C.S. Lewis in a BBC radio talk and in his writings. It is sometimes summarized either as "Lunatic, Liar, or Lord", or as "Mad, Bad, or God". According to Bart Ehrman, an American New Testament scholar, 'there could be a fourth option legend'. Lewis himself denied the accounts of Jesus were legends: "I have read a great deal of legend and I am quite clear that they are not the same sort of thing."
Richard Colson had been a special counsel to POTUS #37 RMN and was convicted of obstruction of justice in the Watergate Scandal. He credited the Lewis trilemma as the basis for his conversion to Christianity. In 1974, he served 7 months in the federal Maxwell Prison in Montgomery, AL, as the 1st member of the Nixon administration to be incarcerated for Watergate-related charges. His mid-life conversion to Christianity sparked a radical life change that led to the founding of his non-profit ministry Prison Fellowship and to a focus on Christian worldview teaching and training.
Only time for one more tonight, but I KNEW you were typing up a long megilla!
So, discussions on rabbis for later, on your last point:
“And it came to pass, that he went through the corn fields on the sabbath day; and his disciples began, as they went, to pluck the ears of corn. And the Pharisees said unto him, Behold, why do they on the sabbath day that which is not lawful? And he said unto them, Have ye never read what David did, when he had need, and was an hungred, he, and they that were with him? How he went into the house of God in the days of Abiathar the high priest, and did eat the shewbread, which is not lawful to eat but for the priests, and gave also to them which were with him? And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath: Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.” (Mar 2:23-28)
WE take this to demonstrate that he was a Torah observant Jew of the Written and Oral Laws, wherein we teach clearly that in a matter of preserving life, “violate one Sabbath to keep many future Sabbaths.”
It’s lock-step with the Rabbi’s presentation. Your other quotes I’ll have to look into. It seems to me Mark ad-libbed the last part.
At the end of the class, the Rabbi speaks of Christendom pulling itself apart. Were you part of this fine thread at all GPH? http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/3165205/posts
I’ll wait in silence I guess. (Serenity now Serenity now!) (to quote Mr. Costanza)
Sorry about that. Which part? I’m trying to give only when I got (and trying to make it real not perceived getting)
Which comment was (conditionally) nice?
It doesn’t follow for Jews. We believe that we are deputized and consecrated by G-d to bring Him “down” into the world through the commandments. See prior posts regarding sin. As for “original sin” ie, we are all doomed...(if not ‘saved’) we simply don’t believe it. We have our rules of repentance, long before JC.
The Jews do indeed agree with Christ on the matter, but Christ's larger point is that He is the Messiah, and, therefore, also the Lord of the Sabbath, being "greater than" the temple itself:
"Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless? But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple. But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless. For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day." (Mat 12:5-8)
Ill wait in silence I guess.
I have no idea what you are going on about, but considering your silence to most of what I said, you are projecting.
G-d and His prophet Moses just put the Law in my heart anew last Wednesday...the 3326th time since the original revelation at Sinai. We actually never stop counting.
FOLLOWING as carefully and to the best of one’s G-d-given ability the written-down rules is EXACTLY what we strive for. Lest you then think the Jew doesn’t have a spiritual side, just dry, route law, one of the laws themselves is to KNOW G-d. So the Christian world’s (and most of the Jewish world’s) lack of insight into Judaism can’t be helped.