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Pope Francis leads Catholic Church in pro-Jewish direction
The Jerusalem Post ^ | 06/08/2014 | PADDY MONAGHAN

Posted on 06/09/2014 5:07:40 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o

I strongly disagree with Caroline Glick’s conclusion in her May 27 article that Pope Francis “is leading the Catholic Church in a distressingly anti-Jewish direction.” I can understand Caroline’s distress at some of the pope’s actions and words but it is important to have balance and not draw wrong conclusions.

Pope Francis is totally committed to reconciliation between the Church and Israel. I would like to demonstrate this under five headings:

1. State of Israel Pope Francis in his first Encyclical in November 2013 affirmed God’s everlasting covenant with the Jews: “We hold the Jewish people in special regard because their covenant with God has never been revoked, for ‘the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable’ (Rom 11:29).”

It is noteworthy that Pope Francis reappointed Father Raniero Cantalamessa as preacher to the papal household.

Fr. Cantalamessa, a renowned bible scholar and teacher, in his book The Mystery of Christmas affirmed the everlasting covenant, writing, “We share with the Jews the biblical certainty that God gave them the country of Canaan forever (Genesis 17:8, Isaiah 43:5, Jeremiah 32:22, Ezekiel 36:24, Amos 9:14). We know that the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.”

Other senior Catholic leaders have publicly affirmed the eternal covenant with the Jews. For example, Cardinal Schoenborn from Austria stated “Christians should rejoice in Jews’ return to Israel as a fulfillment of biblical prophecy.” He stressed “the doctrinal importance to Christians of not only recognizing Jews’ connection to the land, but also ensuring that Christian identification with the Jewish Bible not lead to a ‘usurpation’ of Jewish uniqueness.

Only once in human history did God take a country as an inheritance and give it to His chosen people.”

2. Anti-Semitism Pope Francis has been at the forefront in condemning anti-Semitism.

It is not just when he is meeting Israeli dignitaries like President Shimon Peres last week, when he said, “There is need for a firm rejection of...

anti-Semitism in all its possible expressions,” but he has been involved in educating ordinary Catholics around the world on this issue.

In his November Encyclical Pope Francis teaches: “As Christians, we cannot consider Judaism as a foreign religion. Dialogue and friendship with the children of Israel are part of the life of Jesus’ disciples. The friendship which has grown between us makes us bitterly and sincerely regret the terrible persecutions which they have endured, and continue to endure, especially those that have involved Christians.”

Under Pope Francis’s tenure the Vatican continues to make immense strides in combating anti-Semitism.

For example, there have now been 22 meetings of The International Catholic-Jewish Liaison Committee (ILC). The ILC is the official forum for ongoing dialogue between the Vatican and international Jewish leaders. Its 22nd meeting took place in Spain, from 13-16 October, 2013.

It condemned the current rise of anti-Semitism and the growing phenomenon of Christian persecution.

3. Church and Israel linked together There are on going attempts at the de-judaization of Jesus, Mary and the apostles in popular Middle East Christian culture. Pope Francis in his Encyclical in November wrote, “The Church, which shares with Jews an important part of the sacred Scriptures, looks upon the people of the covenant and their faith as one of the sacred roots of her own Christian identity (Romans 11:16-18).”

He was echoing the teaching of Nostra Aetate and Pope Benedict that “the Church of the Gentiles is like a wild olive shoot, grafted onto the good olive tree that is the people of the Covenant (Romans 11:17-24).

In other words, we draw our nourishment from the same spiritual roots.” (Apostolic Exhortation Sept 2010).

4. Replacement Theology Caroline Glick implied that Pope Francis had adopted “replacement theology during his homily in Bethlehem.”

I am confident this is not the case. Caroline observed that “In his sermon [Latin Patriarch Fouad] Twal accused Israelis of being the present-day version of Christ killers by referring to the Palestinians as walking ‘in the footsteps of the divine child,’ and likening the Israelis to King Herod.” Pope Francis, however, did not affirm these comments but turned them around by comparing all of us to Herod.

Senior Catholic clergy who espouse replacement theology are actually denying the official teaching of the Catholic Church clearly expressed in the Declaration Nostra Aetate, in the Catechism of the Catholic Church and in numerous declarations by John Paul II, Benedict XVI and Francis. The official RC position on replacement theology is very clear. Senior Vatican Cardinal Walter Kasper set it out in 2003 in a major paper on “Anti-Semitism: A wound to be healed” that:

1. The Church does not replace Israel, but is grafted onto it.

2. A complete break between the Church and the Synagogue is in contradiction to sacred scripture.

3. God did not abandon his Covenant with the Jews.

This clear teaching on replacement theology is reaffirmed by many Catholic theologians around the world. Father Dermot Lane of Ireland wrote in his recent book Stepping Stones to Other Religions: “God’s Covenant with the Jews has never been revoked... and therefore theories of supercessionism, substitution and replacement, which have been in existence since the second century, must now be put aside.

These new perspectives are now an essential part of what it means to be Christian and Catholic in the 21st century.”

“It is time for the Church in Israel to definitively reject replacement theology, come back in line with mainstream Catholic teaching and humbly return to a healthy appreciation of its Jewish roots.”

5. Christians as fully fledged citizens: Israel is the only country in the Middle East in which the number of Christians is growing – up from 34,000 in 1949 to 161,000 in the 2013 census. So I was encouraged that Pope Francis stated to President Peres that, “A variety of Christian communities live and work in the State of Israel. They are an integral part of society. Christians wish to contribute to the common good and the growth of peace... as fullfledged citizens who reject extremism in all its forms and are committed to fostering reconciliation.”

Perhaps he had in mind courageous Palestinian Christian leaders like Father Gabriel Nadaf and Naim Khoury who stand with Israel in spite of strong Muslim opposition.

There are also a significant number of local Muslims who have become Christians in the past seven years and pay a big price for coming out of Islam – sadly the PLO’s proposed constitution has adopted Sharia Law, under which such Christians face the death penalty.

In his meeting with the ecumenical patriarch of Constantinople Pope Francis also expressed profound concern for persecuted Christians in Egypt, Syria and Iraq – we need to keep them in prayer.

Pope Francis has repeatedly said, “a Christian cannot be an anti-Semite.”

I would like to assure your readers that Pope Francis is leading the Church to rediscover the Jewish roots of our faith, to honor our elder brothers and see true reconciliation between Israel and the Church in the days ahead.

I end with Pope Francis’s parting words to President Peres: “Mr. President, I assure you of my continued prayers for the institutions and the citizens of the State of Israel.... Peace be upon Israel and the entire Middle East! Shalom!” Here he was echoing Psalm 122 that he had earlier placed in a crack in the Western Wall.

The author is a Catholic lay leader in Ireland.


TOPICS: Catholic; Current Events; Judaism; Prayer
KEYWORDS: catholic; holyland; israel; judeochristian; peres; popefrancis
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Shalom.
1 posted on 06/09/2014 5:07:40 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o
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To: Mrs. Don-o
Can you explain to me why Pope Francis referred to Palestine as a state, when the Lord has promised to enter into judgment with the people who divide up His land (Joel 3:2)?

I think that was Mrs. Glick's main complaint with the Pope, that he acknowledged Judea and Samaria as Palestine, not Israel.

2 posted on 06/09/2014 5:18:09 PM PDT by Former Fetus (Saved by grace through faith)
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To: Former Fetus

“Can you explain to me why Pope Francis referred to Palestine as a state, when the Lord has promised to enter into judgment with the people who divide up His land (Joel 3:2)?”

I can explain it. Whether you like it or not, whether I like it or not, most people around the world think Palestine should be an independent nation. Thus, Francis, like most people on the planet called Palestine a state - which in fact it is in that it has its own laws, own flag, own territory, own parliament, own police force, own history (however artificial), etc. Thus, none of those people outside of Palestine and Israel are diving up the land. They are merely recognizing what is already obvious.


3 posted on 06/09/2014 5:37:56 PM PDT by vladimir998
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To: Mrs. Don-o

Do you believe in the dual covenant theory; that Jews need not convert to achieve salvation?


4 posted on 06/09/2014 5:41:04 PM PDT by ebb tide
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To: vladimir998
most people around the world think Palestine should be an independent nation

Most people? It doesn't matter, God gave this land to the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Not to the descendants of Ishmael.

Thus, none of those people outside of Palestine and Israel are diving up the land. They are merely recognizing what is already obvious.

Since God gave the land, all of the land, to Israel, those people may think what they want but they ARE dividing the land.

In case of doubt, always refer to the Book, it is pretty clear.

5 posted on 06/09/2014 5:41:55 PM PDT by Former Fetus (Saved by grace through faith)
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To: Former Fetus

“Most people? It doesn’t matter, God gave this land to the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Not to the descendants of Ishmael.”

If you are a descendent of Ishmael, you ARE a descendent of Abraham. And no matter who God gave the land to the Palestinians aren’t leaving unless God makes them. So far God has not chosen to oust them. You’ll just have to accept that God has refused to act for whatever reason. Can you humbly accept God’s will?

“Since God gave the land, all of the land, to Israel, those people may think what they want but they ARE dividing the land.”

Nope. They aren’t. God can change things in the blink of an eye if He wants. He clearly has not chosen to do so at this time. You’ll have to learn to accept that.

“In case of doubt, always refer to the Book, it is pretty clear.”

You better explain your understanding of God’s Word to God because He isn’t doing much to support your view. Can you live with that?


6 posted on 06/09/2014 5:59:53 PM PDT by vladimir998
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Comment #7 Removed by Moderator

Comment #8 Removed by Moderator

To: vladimir998
And no matter who God gave the land to the Palestinians aren’t leaving unless God makes them.

Who did God use in the Old Testament to make the Canaanites leave the land? Wasn't it the Israelites?

So far God has not chosen to oust them.

How do you know that? I can tell you how I know that God wants them to have the land... he promised it to them. Abraham asked God that Ishmael be the inheritor of the promise (Gen. 17:18) and God said "no" (Gen. 17:19). So, the land belongs to the descendants of Isaac.

God can change things in the blink of an eye

Praise God that His promises are everlasting, that He does not change (Malachi 3:6). Satan has been trying from the very beginning to keep any of God's promises from being fulfilled... he was behind throwing the Hebrew newborns in the Nile, or killing the innocents at Bethlehem. But God's promises don't change, He is Yisrael HsTzur (the Rock of Israel). So, when he promised the land it was forever, as you can read in Gen. 13:15.

9 posted on 06/09/2014 6:19:36 PM PDT by Former Fetus (Saved by grace through faith)
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To: Former Fetus

God has monotheistic Muslims as a buffer between His Holy City and the more idolatrous.


10 posted on 06/09/2014 6:22:18 PM PDT by jjotto ("Ya could look it up!")
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To: ebb tide
Do you believe in the dual covenant theory; that Jews need not convert to achieve salvation?

Do you affirm or deny the words of the LORD Jesus Christ ?

And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

11 posted on 06/09/2014 6:32:22 PM PDT by af_vet_1981 (The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began)
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To: jjotto

“And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled” (Luke 21:24). I just happen to believe that all signs are that the times of the times of the Gentiles either already are or are about to be fulfilled.


12 posted on 06/09/2014 6:32:27 PM PDT by Former Fetus (Saved by grace through faith)
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To: vladimir998

Yes but This time all the enemies can be summarily destroyed if necessary. What we see of Israel is her peace- seeking, conciliatory character. That’s very real. But it is not derived from any inability to destroy her enemies if forced to do so. Israel can’t stop them for singing their hateful or aggressive tunes. So we probably will have to listen to all that garbage ( including all their the pretenses or lies) for perhaps a long time yet. But we certainly don’t have to give them any credence. And as disgusting as all the propaganda is, it cannot force Israel to give away any more of her tiny little country. I’m thinking of just investing g in a set of ear plugs while purchasing Israel bonds and stocks — especially in the building and defense industries. Have a happy day.


13 posted on 06/09/2014 6:34:20 PM PDT by faithhopecharity ((Brilliant, Profound Tag Line Goes Here, just as soon as I can think of one..))
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To: Former Fetus

“Who did God use in the Old Testament to make the Canaanites leave the land? Wasn’t it the Israelites?”

Yep. And is He using them now to do the same thing to the Palestinians? No, apparently not. Wake up!

“How do you know that?”

Are they still there?

“I can tell you how I know that God wants them to have the land... he promised it to them. Abraham asked God that Ishmael be the inheritor of the promise (Gen. 17:18) and God said “no” (Gen. 17:19). So, the land belongs to the descendants of Isaac.”

I understand what you’re saying. What you don’t seem to understand is that God - for whatever reason - doesn’t seem to be doing anything to oust the Palestinians. If you have any hard facts about God ousting the Palestinians, post them. Got any? Any at all?

“Praise God that His promises are everlasting, that He does not change (Malachi 3:6). Satan has been trying from the very beginning to keep any of God’s promises from being fulfilled... he was behind throwing the Hebrew newborns in the Nile, or killing the innocents at Bethlehem. But God’s promises don’t change, He is Yisrael HsTzur (the Rock of Israel). So, when he promised the land it was forever, as you can read in Gen. 13:15.”

Again, If you have any hard facts about God ACTUALLY ousting the Palestinians, post them. Got any? Any at all? Has God struck the Palestinians with a terrible plague that has wiped them out? Has He wiped them out with storms? Has He wiped them out with enemy armies? Well? Has He?


14 posted on 06/09/2014 6:35:47 PM PDT by vladimir998
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To: af_vet_1981

I affirm those words.

Now will you answer my question? I’ve answered yours.


15 posted on 06/09/2014 6:36:07 PM PDT by ebb tide
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To: vladimir998
I will plant them in their land,
And no longer shall they be pulled up
From the land I have given them,”
Says the Lord your God.

Amos 9:15

16 posted on 06/09/2014 6:41:14 PM PDT by Former Fetus (Saved by grace through faith)
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To: faithhopecharity

“Yes but This time all the enemies can be summarily destroyed if necessary.”

Has God done that?

“What we see of Israel is her peace- seeking, conciliatory character. That’s very real. But it is not derived from any inability to destroy her enemies if forced to do so. Israel can’t stop them for singing their hateful or aggressive tunes. So we probably will have to listen to all that garbage ( including all their the pretenses or lies) for perhaps a long time yet. But we certainly don’t have to give them any credence. And as disgusting as all the propaganda is, it cannot force Israel to give away any more of her tiny little country. I’m thinking of just investing g in a set of ear plugs while purchasing Israel bonds and stocks — especially in the building and defense industries. Have a happy day.”

I hope you have a happy day too. :)


17 posted on 06/09/2014 6:42:17 PM PDT by vladimir998
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To: Former Fetus
The Pope didn't have a hand in this dividing...

...and the legal drawing and re-drawing of of the lines have been done over and over, over and over again by Jews and Gentiles, Empires and Rebels since it was united as a "State" under David and then divided after just one generation, after Solomon.

You might want to ask most religiously observant of the Israeli Jews, the nearly million-strong Haredi, why they support a State of Palestine, when the secular agnostic Jews do not?

18 posted on 06/09/2014 6:43:08 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o
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To: vladimir998
Most of the conquest of Canaan was done by the Israelite army. When necessary, like Jericho, God acted on their behalf. But they had to fight, bleed and die to conquer the land. What makes you think it is any different now? Couldn't the Lord use the IDF to accomplish His will?

We have got a bit off topic. Remember the thread was about Pope Francis leading the Church in a pro-Israel direction. And I questioned why did he acknowledged the State of Palestine? The land was given to Israel in perpetuity. In fact, the day is coming when they will control all of the land given to them, from the Nile to the Euphrates, but that would be a topic for another thread!

19 posted on 06/09/2014 6:48:37 PM PDT by Former Fetus (Saved by grace through faith)
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To: Former Fetus

“What makes you think it is any different now?”

Is it happening now? It has nothing to do with what I think. Is it HAPPENING now? No, it isn’t.

“Couldn’t the Lord use the IDF to accomplish His will?”

Yes, He could. Now, IS HE? No, He IS NOT. It’s just that simple.


20 posted on 06/09/2014 6:52:15 PM PDT by vladimir998
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To: Mrs. Don-o
The Pope didn't have a hand in this dividing...

Pope St Pius X would have nothing to do with supporting a Jewish state.

21 posted on 06/09/2014 6:59:18 PM PDT by ebb tide
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To: Mrs. Don-o

Most Haredi are anti-zionists because they believe that Israel will not be a country again until Messiah comes. They don’t doubt that one day Israel will take over all the land promised by God, they just believe that they need to wait for Messiah to take care of business. However, an ever increasing number of Haredi youth are enrolling in the IDF and getting ready to defend their country.


22 posted on 06/09/2014 6:59:22 PM PDT by Former Fetus (Saved by grace through faith)
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To: vladimir998

Jordan held the land from 1948 to 1967, before that there were few arabs living there most were itinerants. Before that there was a 1922 League of Nations land grant to the Jewish people that was grandfathered into the UN charter.
This land grant is far larger than todays Israel.

In 1948 Jordan got 75% of the land and Israel’s portion was reduced. Still in a battle Israel lost half of Jerusalem where the Grand Jewish Temple stood, plus Judea and Samaria where Hebron, Jericho and other biblical Jewish towns are.

So, from 1967 to this day Israel has its land back. This is 47 years vs. 19 years the Jordanians had been illegally occupying Israeli land Granted in 1922.

I tire of the BS. The EU is made up of lots of Antisemites
who were responsible for Spanish inquisition, The Holocaust and numerous other persecutions against Jews. I don’t accept them and their judgement. Remember India, Gandhi didn’t think UK had the moral authority to decide Indians internal affairs.

Israel gets second guessed but over 60 percent of Arab Israelis don’t want to become citizen of a Palestinian Arab state. The like being Israelis


23 posted on 06/09/2014 7:01:21 PM PDT by Zenjitsuman (New Boss Nancy Pelosi)
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To: ebb tide
Now will you answer my question?

If you mean do Jews have to do what you say to live, no. If you mean do that have to do what Jesus said to live, yes.

24 posted on 06/09/2014 7:02:04 PM PDT by af_vet_1981 (The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began)
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To: af_vet_1981

Jesus said no one comes to the Father, except though His Son. Care to explain how the Jews get around that one?


25 posted on 06/09/2014 7:03:50 PM PDT by ebb tide
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To: ebb tide
Jesus said no one comes to the Father, except though His Son. Care to explain how the Jews get around that one?

I was waiting for you to deny what you just wrote that you affirmed. No, I'll let the LORD Jesus Christ's words be true and every man a liar. If they do those two commandments they will live, as did the Good Samaritan whose example he showed. It must be frustrating in the extreme for Calvinists to see a man saved through his good works of faith.

26 posted on 06/09/2014 7:10:19 PM PDT by af_vet_1981 (The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began)
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To: vladimir998

That would be Netanyahu’s shortcoming. The word of the Lord is clear enough, but sometimes His people don’t do what they are supposed to do. Kind of like Saul not destroying the Amalekites in spite of the clear instructions from the Lord (1 Samuel 15). If Israel today is afraid of the Arab world, and the world in general, that is lack of faith in the Lord. But after Saul came David, a man after God’s heart. I pray that after Netanyahu will come a man who will put his trust in the Lord of his forefathers and reclaim the land.


27 posted on 06/09/2014 7:11:08 PM PDT by Former Fetus (Saved by grace through faith)
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To: Former Fetus

“That would be Netanyahu’s shortcoming.”

He’s not being punished for it.

“The word of the Lord is clear enough, but sometimes His people don’t do what they are supposed to do.”

And is He punishing anyone for that?

“If Israel today is afraid of the Arab world, and the world in general, that is lack of faith in the Lord.”

Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe most Israelis simply have a different view than you do.

“But after Saul came David, a man after God’s heart. I pray that after Netanyahu will come a man who will put his trust in the Lord of his forefathers and reclaim the land.”

And what do you expect the millions of Palestinians to do if that happens?


28 posted on 06/09/2014 7:14:52 PM PDT by vladimir998
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To: af_vet_1981

Care to show where I denied what I wrote? I challenge you.

Once again, according to Christ’s words, how are the Jews saved?


29 posted on 06/09/2014 7:36:18 PM PDT by ebb tide
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To: vladimir998
1) punishment is not instant. Remember, to the Lord a day is like a thousand years and a thousand years like a day.

2) That's not what I read in the Jerusalem Post, Haaretz, Israel National News...

3)I don't care what the Palestinians do. They should move to Jordan, the real Palestinian State, but I don't care as long as Israel gets the land promised by God.

Good night. I have to get up early tomorrow.

30 posted on 06/09/2014 7:52:08 PM PDT by Former Fetus (Saved by grace through faith)
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To: ebb tide
Once again, according to Christ’s words, how are the Jews saved?

And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

31 posted on 06/09/2014 7:54:31 PM PDT by af_vet_1981 (The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began)
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To: af_vet_1981
That all men may honour the Son, as they honour the Father. He who honoureth not the Son, honoureth not the Father, who hath sent him. [24] Amen, amen I say unto you, that he who heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath life everlasting; and cometh not into judgment, but is passed from death to life. [25] Amen, amen I say unto you, that the hour cometh, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God, and they that hear shall live. John, Chapter 5

What is your problem with parsing the Bible in favor of you flawed views?

32 posted on 06/09/2014 8:06:27 PM PDT by ebb tide
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To: ebb tide
What is your problem with parsing the Bible in favor of you flawed views?

I'm at a loss to interpret your question. Why do you assume it is I who have a problem ?

33 posted on 06/09/2014 8:08:39 PM PDT by af_vet_1981 (The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began)
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To: Former Fetus

“1) punishment is not instant. Remember, to the Lord a day is like a thousand years and a thousand years like a day.”

Right, but no punishment at all is no punishment at all. And there is clearly no punishment at all happening.

“2) That’s not what I read in the Jerusalem Post, Haaretz, Israel National News...”

Does that matter? If Jews had the SAME view as you, then they would be doing what you want. They aren’t. Because they don’t. It’s just that simple.

“3)I don’t care what the Palestinians do. They should move to Jordan, the real Palestinian State, but I don’t care as long as Israel gets the land promised by God.”

I bet God has different plans and ideas than you do - and He is acting on His while you’re posting on the internet.

“Good night. I have to get up early tomorrow.”

Good Night. Praise Him when you get up in the morning.


34 posted on 06/09/2014 8:09:24 PM PDT by vladimir998
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To: af_vet_1981

It’s obvious. You seem to not believe what I just quoted from the Bible.

Will you not affirm John, Chapter 5?


35 posted on 06/09/2014 8:12:11 PM PDT by ebb tide
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To: ebb tide
Will you not affirm John, Chapter 5?

Yes, I affirm every word Jesus spoke, including John Chapters 5 and 6. Do you affirm John 6 ?

After these things Jesus went over the sea of Galilee, which is the sea of Tiberias. And a great multitude followed him, because they saw his miracles which he did on them that were diseased. And Jesus went up into a mountain, and there he sat with his disciples. And the passover, a feast of the Jews, was nigh. When Jesus then lifted up his eyes, and saw a great company come unto him, he saith unto Philip, Whence shall we buy bread, that these may eat? And this he said to prove him: for he himself knew what he would do. Philip answered him, Two hundred pennyworth of bread is not sufficient for them, that every one of them may take a little. One of his disciples, Andrew, Simon Peter's brother, saith unto him, There is a lad here, which hath five barley loaves, and two small fishes: but what are they among so many? And Jesus said, Make the men sit down. Now there was much grass in the place. So the men sat down, in number about five thousand. And Jesus took the loaves; and when he had given thanks, he distributed to the disciples, and the disciples to them that were set down; and likewise of the fishes as much as they would. When they were filled, he said unto his disciples, Gather up the fragments that remain, that nothing be lost. Therefore they gathered them together, and filled twelve baskets with the fragments of the five barley loaves, which remained over and above unto them that had eaten. Then those men, when they had seen the miracle that Jesus did, said, This is of a truth that prophet that should come into the world. When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone.

And when even was now come, his disciples went down unto the sea, And entered into a ship, and went over the sea toward Capernaum. And it was now dark, and Jesus was not come to them. And the sea arose by reason of a great wind that blew. So when they had rowed about five and twenty or thirty furlongs, they see Jesus walking on the sea, and drawing nigh unto the ship: and they were afraid. But he saith unto them, It is I; be not afraid. Then they willingly received him into the ship: and immediately the ship was at the land whither they went.

The day following, when the people which stood on the other side of the sea saw that there was none other boat there, save that one whereinto his disciples were entered, and that Jesus went not with his disciples into the boat, but that his disciples were gone away alone; (Howbeit there came other boats from Tiberias nigh unto the place where they did eat bread, after that the Lord had given thanks:) When the people therefore saw that Jesus was not there, neither his disciples, they also took shipping, and came to Capernaum, seeking for Jesus. And when they had found him on the other side of the sea, they said unto him, Rabbi, when camest thou hither?

Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled. Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed. Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work? Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat. Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world. Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.

And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not. All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven. And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven? Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves. No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. I am that bread of life. Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead. This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat? Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever. These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.

Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it? When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God. Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

36 posted on 06/09/2014 8:26:32 PM PDT by af_vet_1981 (The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began)
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To: Former Fetus
1) punishment is not instant. Remember, to the Lord a day is like a thousand years and a thousand years like a day. 2) That's not what I read in the Jerusalem Post, Haaretz, Israel National News... 3)I don't care what the Palestinians do. They should move to Jordan, the real Palestinian State, but I don't care as long as Israel gets the land promised by God. Good night. I have to get up early tomorrow.

Oh but you should care; you don't really want to commit genocide against the Arabs who call themselves Palestinians do you ? The Palestinians are not going to leave the land of Israel voluntarily until Messiah comes again. Arabs are already about 21% of the State of Israel without Judea and Samaria; the Arabs have more children than the Jews; do you want Israel to annex all the land and pick up those people too ? They would soon outnumber the Jews and vote the State of Israel into remission; oh, but you would deny them citizenship and make them perpetual slaves or concentration camp residents instead ? Would you want to sterilize them too ? Can you not see that there is no solution to this problem among men without God ?

37 posted on 06/09/2014 9:01:15 PM PDT by af_vet_1981 (The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began)
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To: Mrs. Don-o
He was echoing the teaching of Nostra Aetate and Pope Benedict that “the Church of the Gentiles is like a wild olive shoot, grafted onto the good olive tree that is the people of the Covenant (Romans 11:17-24).

Not even close...The Jew of the old covenant have a promise of the land that God gave them and a physical Kingdom with a reigning King...

The NEW covenant is a spiritual covenant of a Kingdom in heaven...When Jews come under the new covenant, they are no longer Jews...They are Christians...When we Gentiles are grated in to the tree, we are no longer Gentiles...We are Christians...

The Jewish Christians are not Israel...They are in Jesus Christ, the root of the tree...We Gentiles as well become adopted sons/daughters of the root of the tree, Christians, not Israel...

Eph 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Eph 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
Eph 2:17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
Eph 2:21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
Eph 2:22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Christians are not Israel...Unbelieving Israel is still Israel...Believing Israel is Christian...

As the scripture says, the two (saved Israel and saved Gentile) have become one NEW man...And this new man is the church, the body of Christ...Built upon the foundation of Jesus and the Apostles...

God is not done with unbelieving Israel...Therefore we can not be Israel...

38 posted on 06/09/2014 10:05:51 PM PDT by Iscool
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To: ebb tide

Most Vatican II Catholics believe this.


39 posted on 06/10/2014 2:49:57 AM PDT by piusv
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To: ebb tide
Pope St Pius X would have nothing to do with supporting a Jewish state.

True. But that is the pre-Conciliar Church. The Vatican II Church is so much more progressive now.

40 posted on 06/10/2014 2:52:20 AM PDT by piusv
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To: af_vet_1981
Well, we found some points of agreement. You are right, there is no solution to this problem without God. There won't be peace in the ME until Jesus returns, but in the meanwhile we are to support God's chosen people because (among other reasons) we will be judged by how we dealt with them. I also think that you are right and I should care about the Palestinians, they need to be witnessed (the majority is Muslim).

But we disagree on the rest. Some suggestions from leading MKs include financial incentives to move to Jordan and citizenship for those who choose to stay, quite different from your genocide and concentration camps! And, real statistics, show that Israeli Jews are having children at a faster rate than Israeli Muslims (I imagine the Hassidic Jews are responsible for this but I don't know for sure). I would recommend that you read Caroline Glick's book, "The Israeli Solution: A One-State Plan for Peace in the Middle East."

41 posted on 06/10/2014 7:40:19 AM PDT by Former Fetus (Saved by grace through faith)
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To: af_vet_1981

If that is all the Jews need to do, then I guess Christ didn’t have to die on a Cross. Is that what you believe?


42 posted on 06/11/2014 2:59:21 PM PDT by piusv
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To: Mrs. Don-o; All
Everyone please kindly remember that by "anti-Semitism" the Vatican means politically incorrect ethnic bigotry and that by "pro-Jewish" it means liberal, relativistic, and ecumenical. This is the only kind of "philo-Semitism" the Vatican knows, since it regards the presence of Jews in Israel (as the literal rather than "spiritual" fulfillment of Messianic prophecies) to be highly undesirable.

The philo-Semitism of Fundamentalist Protestants is built upon false premises, but it is still far preferable to the loony liberalism the Vatican endorses as an antidote to anti-Semitism.

43 posted on 06/11/2014 4:17:12 PM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (The Left: speaking power to truth since Shevirat HaKelim.)
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To: Zionist Conspirator
"the Vatican ... regards the presence of Jews in Israel (as the literal rather than "spiritual" fulfillment of Messianic prophecies) to be highly undesirable."

I am unaware of any statement to this effect, from any of the seven Popes since the establishment of the State of Israel (Pius XII, John XXIII, Paul VI, John Paul I, John Paul II, Benedict, or Francis.)

Could you help me out here with a quote (and, even better, one that comes with a link?)

44 posted on 06/11/2014 4:28:08 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o ("Stop judging by mere appearances, but judge with righteous judgment." - (John 7:24))
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To: Mrs. Don-o
How about the following from a Catholic web site critical of the Jewish attitude towards Pius? Note particularly the following:

Although leading Americans like Dean G. Acheson, George C. Marshall, and James V. Forrestal also opposed the creation of the State of Israel as a homeland for the Jews, they have not been subjected to the criticism to which Pope Pius XII has been exposed. Certainly, Pius XII had sympathy for the Zionist dream of a homeland for the Jews, but he never did recognize the State of Israel and was not at all enthusiastic about Jersualem becoming the capital of the new nation.

So Pius opposed a Jewish state in the Middle East, just as Marshall, Acheson, and Forrestal did. And by the way, it isn't true that none of these men were savaged for their positions; Forrestal most certainly was because he was a conservative and anti-Communist and could be used to "show" that anti-Communism was hostile to Jewish nationhood in the Holy Land. Liberal anti-Zionists like Acheson, Marshall, the original anti-Fundamentalist Harry Emerson Fosdick, or Arnold Toynbee were ignored, or at least not attacked with the same fervor.

Unfortunately, I cannot give you the source for my next statement; I can only say that I read it somewhere. But during the Israeli War for Independence Pius was very concerned about an Israeli victory. One of his advisors supposedly comforted him by pointing out that a Jewish State in part of the Holy Land would not be a refutation of the claims of chrstianity as a Jewish State in Jerusalem would be.

And before someone pulls the "what about anti-Zionist Orthodox Jews" card, these Jews do not oppose a Jewish Messiah ruling the entire world. To the contrary, they very much support it and pray for it constantly. They oppose secular nationalism which they think is not only forbidden by the Torah but even preventing Mashiach from coming. They still love the Land of Israel and those Jews who live there. Even the Satmar Rebbe visited Israel and the late Rabbi 'Avigdor Miller (zt"l), who translated some of his anti-Zionist works into English, was buried on Har HaZeytim (the Mount of Olives).

Mrs. Don-o, I don't mean to be mean to you; you're obviously a good and sweet person. But FCOL, you live in the Bible Belt. You know the difference between the traditional Catholic attitude towards Jews and Jewish national aspirations and that of Fundamentalist Protestants going back not just to the Niagara Prophecy Conference of the 1870's but in some cases all the way back to the sixteenth century. Ignoring this plain fact does you not credit.

At any rate, the point I was trying to make is that the Vatican can only be "philo-Semitic" in the secular, liberal, relativistic, multicultural sense. Even if its theology won't let it sound like Independent Baptists, it should drop the "down with bigotry" act that sounds like it was written by Democrat activists.

45 posted on 06/11/2014 4:51:06 PM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (The Left: speaking power to truth since Shevirat HaKelim.)
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To: Zionist Conspirator
Thank you for your detailed and thoughtful response.

You credit me with more knowledge than I have, because I had never heard of the Niagara Prophecy Conference of the 1870's, and I have practically no knowledge of Protestant views on Jews/Israel going back to the sixteenth century.

I have read some of Martin Luther's opinion of Jews ("base, whoring people, that is, no people of God, and their boast of lineage, circumcision, and law must be accounted as filth" ). Of course he was far, far from the only one who wrote and preached like that in the 16th century: he was a fiery, intemperate polemicist. But there were many,both Catholic and Protestant, who slandered Jews in his day, as well as for centuries before and after. It's shameful, just shameful.

46 posted on 06/11/2014 5:20:13 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o ("Stop judging by mere appearances, but judge with righteous judgment." - (John 7:24))
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To: Mrs. Don-o
First, Mrs. Don-o, let me apologize for not reading the entirety of the article you posted. I saw the usual liberal "anti-Semitism" stuff and drew my standard conclusions. In the first part of the article a Catholic scripture scholar actually calls the Jewish return to Israel a fulfillment of Biblical prophecy. I did not see this and am dumbstruck that any Catholic, conservative or liberal, would say such a thing. I sincerely hope this viewpoint grows in Catholicism, though the fact that this contradicts all previous Catholic teaching gives it a whiff of liberalism, and liberalism is no answer to anti-Semitism. For not paying attention to this and making assumptions, I sincerely apologize.

Classical, magisterial Protestantism is of course highly anti-Semitic (and has moved from that to liberalism today). But other than Episcopalianism, most American Protestantism is of the radical, post-magisterial variety. And this form of Protestantism has been predicting a Jewish return to Israel since at least the seventeenth century (I apologize if I said "sixteenth" earlier).

Radical Protestantism is of course "the American religion" in that it holds that America was intended by G-d to be the land where "true biblical chrstianity" was to be restored after "the great apostasy" (ie, the rise of historical, liturgical chrstianity). The early Puritans saw themselves as a sort of (lehavdil!) "New Israel" and this land as their "Canaan." Furthermore the Hebrew Bible was held to be the pure and true liturgical worship as opposed to the ceremonial of historical chrstianity, which can't even be found in the "new testament." This is what I have been referring to as "Biblical sentimentalism"--a pull towards the Jewish liturgy and ceremony as the true Divine coin of which liturgical chrstian worship was the counterfeit. This does not mean that orthodox Puritanism believed in "two covenants" or denied supersessionism, it explains their interest in the Hebrew language.

It was outside mainstream orthodoxy that chrstian Zionism would emerge in the seventeenth century. Increase Mather for one wrote a book predicting the national restoration of the Jews to Canaan (unfortunately rejected by his son Cotton) and even Sir Isaac Newton (heterodox that he was) believed much the same thing. This budding need for national Israel to be restored to fill the vacancy which historical chrstianity was deemed unworthy to fill really began blooming in the nineteenth century and perhaps reached its first apogee in the Niagara Bible Conferences. I once read a scholarly book entitled Zionism within Early American Fundamentalism 1878-1918 which I recommend to you, but I doubt very seriously if you could ever find it anywhere.

What most people don't understand today is that back then, not only chrstian Zionism, but Fundamentalism itself, was not an ethno-cultural reference referring to "inbred trailer dwelling white trash." Early Fundamentalism began in large and respectable urban churches in the North (the South with its legacy of racism and polygenistic apologias for the same was not quite friendly to literalism originally). "Fundamentalism" meant a belief in "fundamentals." What is sectarian about that? What is "stupid" about that? What is "hateful" or "bigoted" about that? These fundamentals were in fact the historical beliefs of chrstians (or at least Protestants) until liberalism came in and took over in the churches which Fundamentalists (or at least proto-Fundamentalists) had built. It was moreover considered "ecumenical;" by stressing "fundamentals" rather than particulars, people from a wide variety of Protestant traditions could cooperate. Of course the perception is the exact opposite today.

Parenthetically, this is why I have such a thin skin when "conservatives" or "religious people" adopt the vocabulary of Hollywood sodomites and start ranting about "Bobble-toters," "snake handlers," "brain-dead bibliolators," "Cletuses," or "bigots." And yes, Catholics on FR have used all these terms.

Unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately in the ultimate sense in which G-d sees things) Fundamentalism lost to liberalism in the mainstream churches in which it began and was driven to its last refuge in the rural folk-Protestantism of the American Bible Belt (a religious tradition which no one studies or even tries to understand, since it is considered too "ignorant" and "naive" to be worthy of such study). Thus today a "Fundamentalist" is a poor, rural, white Southern racist. But that is the connotation, not the denotation.

Before closing on this topic, I wish to note that Zionism's right wing opponents (the "Judaeo-Masonic-Bolshevik" people) have often used Fundamentalist Zionism's respectable mainstream origins as "proof" that it was created by "the Conspiracy" and should be expunged from chrstianity as the alien infection it is. The John Birch Society used to ("unofficially") promote a book entitled The Rapture Cult (full text available online) that made this very claim. The most "notorious" of all the chrstian Zionists was Cyrus Scofield, editor of the "Scofield Reference Bible." The original publisher of this book was Oxford University Press, which to the Birchers and their kin, is "proof" that the Rockefellers and the Illuminati were behind the whole thing. And there are any number of Catholic sites online which are quite anti-Jewish and anti-Zionist and which blame all the trouble in the Middle East on "chrstian Zionism." I used to be an e-mail correspondent with Robert Sungenis. I rejoiced at his creationism (though he doesn't interpret the Biblical chronologies literally) and even his geocentrism. But then he went nuts and became a raving Jew-hater, to such an extent that he accuses every critic of having Jewish ancestors.

I'm going to stop now. For whatever reason, I've been having connection problems all week. I've been constantly going off line and even now my download speed is under 1.00 (I'm going to have to call my ISP tomorrow). I'm assuming that it's because of all the rainfall and flash flooding we've been having the past couple weeks (phone lines are after all in the ground), but I'm hoping things will be restored soon. I wish I didn't have to personally call and complain to get this problem looked at.

Thank you again for everything. I hope this posts.

47 posted on 06/11/2014 6:20:30 PM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (The Left: speaking power to truth since Shevirat HaKelim.)
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To: piusv
If that is all the Jews need to do, then I guess Christ didn’t have to die on a Cross. Is that what you believe?

Are you denying Jesus said that, or if you avow he said it, are you denying it was true ?

48 posted on 06/11/2014 6:35:44 PM PDT by af_vet_1981 (The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began)
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To: Zionist Conspirator
Thanks for a very informative post. There's a whole lot of history there that needs discerning study. I can seeyou've done a lot of it.

Best of health to your ISP connection. God bless.

49 posted on 06/11/2014 6:43:31 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o ("Stop judging by mere appearances, but judge with righteous judgment." - (John 7:24))
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To: Zionist Conspirator
I did not see this and am dumbstruck that any Catholic, conservative or liberal, would say such a thing.

Well, maybe you don't know everything yet after all. You are obviously highly intelligent and must have made quite a journey to end up where you are now.

50 posted on 06/11/2014 6:50:31 PM PDT by af_vet_1981 (The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began)
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