Skip to comments.Can an infant be baptized, be raised by believing parents & later turn from the faith?
Posted on 06/15/2014 12:52:19 PM PDT by Laissez-faire capitalist
1.) An infant is baptized, is raised by believing parents and later when older turns from the faith.
2.) An infant is baptized, has no believing parents to be raised by, and when older doesn't turn from the faith.
Given that the antithesis exists for 1 & 2, wouldn't it be prudent for the priest to baptize the fortunate infant as well as the unfortunate, as either could remain faithful when older, show perseverance against high odds, and no priest knows the future - only God Almighty?
Given that only God knows the future, perhaps withholding baptism isn't an option at all for the priest. If the priest is unsure about 1, 2 or the antithesis for both, should they let God do their baptizing for them if they lack faith?
If they baby never accepted Jesus then they haven’t turned from the faith.
Baptism is NOT required for salvation...Example: The thief on the cross.
Baptizing an infant serves no purpose. They cannot believe, they are too young to recognize sin in their life.
Pity the priest, or pity the infant?
Who will take a stand for the little one?
“Suffer the little ones, for of such is the Kingdom of God.”
Are you on a cross?
Peter said baptism saves us.
How does a priest get his hands on a baby that has unbelieving parents? Where does the faith of the baby come from?
If an infant was baptized, would they be buried on sacred ground, or thrown into a cesspool by priests, and/or nuns?
So a priest should withhold baptism and toss them into a cesspool and not bury them in sacred ground?
Can you point to a verse on that?
In a place where unwed, pregnant mothers have went to.
1 Peter 3:21.
I have no idea what priests or nuns would do. I doubt anyone would do what you suggest these days.
Baptism doesn’t equal salvation in babies or adults.
For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;
in ]which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison,
who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.
Corresponding to that, baptism now saves younot the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good consciencethrough the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.
About the only thing that accomplishes is their head gets wet...
Infant baptism has absolutely nothing to do salvation...
Infants cannot have "faith" as in a belief system...
The simple answer to this question is that, if Adam can abandon his relationship with God, anybody can abandon their relationship with God.
Baptism doesn’t save you if you have not first accepted Jesus as your savior.
In the Religion forum, on a thread titled Can an infant be baptized, be raised by believing parents & later turn from the faith?, Laissez-faire capitalist wrote:
“So a priest should withhold baptism and toss them into a cesspool and not bury them in sacred ground?”
So you continue to spread that unproven canard here? Why?
Infants can pledge a clear conscience toward God...?
Nearly 800 babies found in a septic tank in Ireland.
Do you know where this septic tank was located?
Why no burial on sacred ground?
The poster asked for a citation, I provided it. End of discussion.
I’m going to the garage to gaze in awe at my classic sports car, now.
Your misunderstanding of Peter’s statement in Acts 10 is..... making me shake my head. You obviously don’t understand the role of the Holy Spirit as the revealer of the Gospel.
Peter’s statement actually confirms the need for baptism.
It has been my experience that the opposition to baptism is rooted in the desire to “be saved” merely by mental assent without actually changing your life “dying to sin through baptism”.
Here's a blurb which explains what I am thinking better than I can...
While Peter is connecting baptism with salvation, it is not the act of being baptized that he is referring to (not the removal of dirt from the flesh). Being immersed in water does nothing but wash away dirt. What Peter is referring to is what baptism represents, which is what saves us (an appeal to God for a good conscience through the resurrection of Jesus Christ). In other words, Peter is simply connecting baptism with belief. It is not the getting-wet part that saves but is the appeal to God for a clean conscience which is signified by baptism, that saves us. The appeal to God always comes first. First belief and repentance, then we are baptized to publicly identify ourselves with Christ.
All Christians believe in the role of baptism in the life of the Christian. The differences which exist are differences of emphasis—of the necessity of baptism—and not of the call to be baptized. Roman Catholic Christians believe that in the sacrament of baptism the individual is both
regenerated through water and the Holy Spirit and
truly incorporated into the Church of Jesus Christ.
Jesus answered (Nicodemus), “Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit.”
Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit,
I am baptizing you with water, for repentance, but the one who is coming after me is mightier than I. I am not worthy to carry his sandals. He will baptize you with the holy Spirit and fire.
But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a disciplinarian. For through faith you are all children of God in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
1 Cor 12:12-13
As a body is one though it has many parts, and all the parts of the body, though many, are one body, so also Christ. For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, slaves or free persons, and we were all given to drink of one Spirit.
Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and they asked Peter and the other apostles, “What are we to do, my brothers?” Peter (said) to them, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the holy Spirit.”
While Peter was still speaking these things, the holy Spirit fell upon all who were listening to the word. The circumcised believers who had accompanied Peter were astounded that the gift of the holy Spirit should have been poured out on the Gentiles also, for they could hear them speaking in tongues and glorifying God. Then Peter responded, “Can anyone withhold the water for baptizing these people, who have received the holy Spirit even as we have?”
They paid attention to him (Simon Magus) because he had astounded them by his magic for a long time, but once they began to believe Philip as he preached the good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, men and women alike were baptized. Even Simon himself believed and, after being baptized, became devoted to Philip.
... not because of any righteous deeds we had done but because of his mercy, he saved us through the bath of rebirth (baptism) and renewal by the holy Spirit.
1 Pet 3:20-21
God patiently waited in the days of Noah during the building of the ark, in which a few persons, eight in all, were saved through water. This prefigured baptism, which saves you now.
Or are you unaware that we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were indeed buried with him through baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might live in newness of life.
You were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.
The teaching authority of the Church, the Magisterium, has clearly stated the role of baptism in the life of the Christian.
Lateran Council IV, 1215
Infallibly defined that baptism was a sacrament of the Church.
Council of Lyons II, 1274
Infallibly redefined that baptism was one of the seven sacraments.
Council of Trent, 1545 - 1563
Again infallibly defined the seven sacraments listing baptism as the opening gateway and foundation of the sacraments.
Roman Catholic Christians among other denominational Christians, e.g., Anglicans, Episcopalians, Lutherans, etc., believe in the efficacy and practice of baptizing infants.
Peter (said) to them, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the holy Spirit. For the promise is made to you and to your children and to all those far off, whomever the Lord our God will call.”
The New Testament speaks of the baptism of “whole households” which in the normal Greek usage of the time included children.
1 Cor 1:16
I (Paul) baptized the household of Stephanas also ...
He related to us how he had seen (the) angel standing in his house, saying, ‘Send someone to Joppa and summon Simon, who is called Peter, who will speak words to you by which you and all your household will be saved.’
After she (Lydia of Thyatira) and her household had been baptized, she offered us an invitation...
Then he (the jailer) brought them (Paul and Silas) out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you and your household will be saved.” So they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to everyone in his house.
Crispus, the synagogue official, came to believe in the Lord along with his entire household.
To the Colossians, Paul paralleled baptism and circumcision. Circumcision was normally administered to children eight days after birth.
In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not administered by hand, by stripping off the carnal body, with the circumcision of Christ. You were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.
To the Corinthians, Paul recalled that just as all the Jews of the Exodus (including children) were baptized into Moses by passing through the Red Sea, they were actually being blessed by Christ.
1 Cor 10:1-4
I do not want you to be unaware, brothers, that our ancestors were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea, and all of them were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. All ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they drank from a spiritual rock that followed them, and the rock was the Christ.
In Mark’s Gospel, we have Jesus’ own teaching on children.
And people were bringing children to him that he might touch them, but the disciples rebuked them. When Jesus saw this he became indignant and said to them, “Let the children come to me; do not prevent them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.” ... Then he embraced them and blessed them, placing his hands on them.
The Roman Catholic Church teaches that baptism is necessary for salvation after the promulgation of the Gospel for everyone, both children and adults.
Jesus answered (Nicodemus), “Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit.”
It is frequently asked by non-believers how an infant is capable of making an act of faith in order to receive baptism. The response of the Catholic Church is to follow the Biblical example of Christ. Jesus accepted the faith of others as an occasion of salvation, forgiveness and healing of another. The Church has always done likewise. In infant baptism, the faith of parents and sponsors is required.
When Jesus returned to Capernaum ... They came bringing to him a paralytic carried by four men. Unable to get near Jesus because of the crowd, they opened up the roof above him. After they had broken through, they let down the mat on which the paralytic was lying. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, “Child, your sins are forgiven.”
When he entered Capernaum, a centurion approached him and appealed to him, saying, “Lord, my servant is lying at home paralyzed, suffering dreadfully.” He said to him, “I will come and cure him.” The centurion said in reply, “Lord, I am not worthy to have you enter under my roof; only say the word and my servant will be healed.” ... When Jesus heard this, he was amazed and said to those following him, “Amen, I say to you, in no one in Israel have I found such faith.” ... And Jesus said to the centurion, “You may go; as you have believed, let it be done for you.” And at that very hour (his) servant was healed.
The constant teaching of the Church attests to the baptism of infants.
Pope Zosimus (417 - 418)
Approved a teaching of a local council at Carthage which condemned those who denied baptism to newborn infants.
Pope Celestine I (422 - 432)
Taught that both children and infants need the sacrament of regeneration.
Pope Innocent II (1130 - 1143) and the Council of Lateran IV
Condemned those who denied the baptism of children.
Pope Innocent III (1198 - 1216)
Condemned those who said that baptism of children was useless.
Pope Clement V (1305 - 1314) in the Council of Vienne
Defended the necessity of baptism of children.
Pope Eugene IV (1431 - 1447) in the Council of Florence
Defended the necessity of baptism of children.
The Council of Trent (1545 - 1563)
In a number of related canons, defined the absolute necessity of baptism for both children and adults.
That verse has qualifier at the end...which I pointed out...
Hope you enjoy gazing at your awesome sports car...
Stop spreading lies.
It wasn’t a septic tank, it was a burial vault. A common method for burial in times past for those without the resources for an individual burial.
The nuns involved with that home committed their lives to helping women and saving children.
“Baptism doesnt save you if you have not first accepted Jesus as your savior.”
Correct. And Just saying “Lord, Lord” will not save you without doing the will of the Father. Jesus said that in Matthew 7:21
You hear the word.
You believe it.
You publicly confess Christ as your Savior.
You immerse yourself in baptism, as Peter described “the action of a good conscience toward God”.
You hear it, you say it, you do it. Leave any of those out and Salvation is not there.
no he did not
I’m prepping the grill for fathers day rib-eyes.
Strawman on your part.
The issue s whether or not those found were or weren’t baptized, not if the RCC was directly involved, as I do not raise yhat they were involved.
Kneejerk reaction on your part.
Now, bury them in sacred ground?
No, because they may not have been baptized?
Why weren’t they baptized?
If they were baptized, how did they end up here?
I think SOMETHING happens to us and in us when we are baptized, though “calling on the name of The Lord” is what leads to salvation. I think we’re pretty clueless about God and his manifold wisdom. We receive awareness over time. Salvation happens in that clueless time, in spite of our lack of knowledge. We had a mustard seed of faith. It was enough!
Baptizing a child has a sense of “marking” them for God (if I understand the concept).
Individual burials for the more respectable babies....
Could you expand on that a bit?;-)
Acts 16:33: And he took them that very hour of the night and washed their wounds, and immediately he was baptized, he and all his household.
Acts 18:8: Crispus, the leader of the synagogue, believed in the Lord with all his household, and many of the Corinthians when they heard were believing and being baptized.
1 Corinthians 1:16: Now I did baptize also the household of Stephanas;
Is it your (unsubstantiated) contention that only grown, discerning, capable adults belonged to all these households, despite the writers' (dare I say Holy Spirit's?) being moved, universally and repeatedly, not to make such qualification? It would be an awfully big (self-evidently incorrect) mouthful to say, as you do, that what Paul and other apostles did regarding baptism served no purpose!
Inasmuch as salvation is through grace (Eph. 2:8,9), not dependent onany work of our own, lest any should boast, who are we to hinder those, to the likes of whom belongs the kingdom of God? (Mark 10:14).
Some research by Mrs. Don-o
What kind of sports car did you get?
Got any pics?
Lutherans believe similiar, baptism is a sacrament that gives faith and also is for the forgivenss of sins.. I liked how you provided many verses that back it up.
Stop being an idiot.
If its a question of taking care of those still living or digging a grave the answer is simple.
Nothings stopping you from taking a shovel over there and digging 800 graves for each of those children.
Without the work of those nuns there would be many many more dead children.
I would say that baptism is “the answer of a good conscience”. To me, the ‘answer of a good conscience’ is actually doing something to show your conscience has been pricked/changed.
It’s kind of like God saying “Ok, now you SAID it. Prove to me that you mean it”.
I think back to Jesus saying in Matthew 7:21 “Not all who say to me ‘Lord, Lord’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he that doeth the will of my Father.” Just saying” Yeah, I believe” won’t cut it. You have to prove it in your life. Step #1 is being baptized. If you don’t take that first step, you haven’t committed.
Baptism is that final step of taking an action to show that you are dying to (committing to abstaining from) sin. If you are not willing to be baptized, you aren’t willing to die to sin.
It’s Sunday Flame the Catholics eh?
This isn't it, but looks just like it:
Actually, baptism means nothing. You must FIRST confess that you realize you are a sinner, ask Christ for forgiveness of that sin, repent that sin, be saved, and then, as a public show to all that you have repented and changed your life over to Jesus Christ, you can have baptism to show proof. Simple baptism alone means nothing. Without FAITH in Jesus Christ to forgive your sins, it means nothing.
10-4, roger that. You are correct.
Happy Father’s Day! I hope your steaks turn out excellently!
I let my husband drive my car ;-).