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Messianics discuss Israel misconceptions
Baptist Press ^ | Jun 16, 2014 | David Roach

Posted on 06/16/2014 8:44:24 PM PDT by Graybeard58

BALTIMORE (BP) -- Misunderstandings of God's plan for Israel abound among evangelicals, and correcting them is a key aspect of teaching biblical doctrine, Bruce Stokes said during the Southern Baptist Messianic Fellowship meeting in Baltimore.

"You have to keep Israel central to everything you do, or you're going to wander away from the text," Stokes, SBMF vice president and pastor of the DiscipleCenter in Anaheim Hills, Calif., said.

Joining Stokes as a speaker at the gathering was Michael Herts, SBMF missions development manager and founding leader of B'nai Avraham Messianic Fellowship in Hampton, Va. In a business session, the current officers were re-elected: Ric Worshill, president; Stokes, vice president and director of missions; and Herts, missions development manager.

The meeting theme of "Kingdom Purpose" encouraged Messianic Jews (Jews who follow Jesus as Messiah) to share the Gospel with Jewish people and others.

A common misconception in Christian theology is that the church replaces Israel as the people of God under the new covenant, Stokes said, a doctrine known as replacement theology. Instead, a series of covenants unfold in Scripture like a "blooming flower," he said, and ethnic Israel plays a role in all of the covenants -- from God's covenant with Noah to His covenants with Abraham, Moses and David and the new covenant.

Neither the theological system known as dispensationalism nor the system known as covenant theology accurately describes the unfolding covenants, Stokes said.

The covenants are "like a flower that's blooming, and the roots are that Noahic covenant," Stokes said June 7 at the Hilton Baltimore. "Then the Abrahamic gives expression, and then the Mosaic gives expression, then the Davidic. It just grows until they all bloom into fullness in the culmination of the age and then are superseded by the new covenant that brought them all together."

Another common misconception is that God saved His people by works under the old covenant but saves them by grace under the new covenant, Stokes said. He explained that both covenants involve salvation by grace followed by obedience as an expression of worship by grateful people.

"I don't understand where the idea of salvation through obedience to the law of Moses ever came from," Stokes said. "I can't find it in the text, but it's shot through Christianity big-time. It would be different if in Exodus, Moses walked in and said, 'Here are the commandments of God. If you'll obey them, I'll get you out of Egypt.' But he didn't. [God] got them out of Egypt by the blood of the lamb based on a promise He made to Abraham.... Then after delivering them, He said, 'Here's how I want you to live.'"

Yet another misconception among Christians is that there are 10 "lost tribes" of Israel -- the 10 northern tribes that were taken into captivity by the Assyrians, Stokes said.

The 10 northern tribes never made it home from Assyria and were dispersed among the nations. But biblical prophecy says all Israel will be part of God's Kingdom at the end of history, leading some to speculate that the "lost" tribes ended up in England, the U.S. and other locations.

Stokes said the tribes aren't really "lost" and members of each are among Jews today. He compared the Assyrian exile to a hypothetical scenario in which everyone in the states of California, Arizona and Nevada is carried off to captivity. Such a captivity would not eliminate Californians, Arizonans and Nevadans from America because "there are Californians, Arizonans and Nevadans all in the other states," Stokes said. He explained that similarly, there were members of the 10 northern tribes living in Judah.

"There are no 10 lost tribes," Stokes said.

From beginning to end, the Bible is the story of the holy God gathering His holy people in a holy land, Stokes said. Knowing that story line helps believers understand every book of the Bible and how Israel fits into it, he said


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1 posted on 06/16/2014 8:44:24 PM PDT by Graybeard58
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To: WKB; Graybeard58; Lil Flower; Din Maker; Malichi; WXRGina; duffee; onyx; DrewsMum; Tupelo; mstar; ..

Pinging the Baptist ping list with permission of the keeper of the list, WKB.


2 posted on 06/16/2014 8:51:06 PM PDT by Graybeard58 (If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha. 1 Cor 16: 32)
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To: Graybeard58

“A common misconception in Christian theology is that the church replaces Israel”

I have never heard that line of preaching in a main stream Christian church


3 posted on 06/16/2014 9:03:27 PM PDT by Nifster
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To: Graybeard58

He’s right about Replacement Theology, but wrong about Dispensationalism.

I’m not sure where he got the idea that Christians were off-base by following the law of Moses. That’s a Jewish problem, not a Christian problem.

He’s right about the 10 so-called Lost Tribes.

And he’s right about Israel being the key and the center of everything.


4 posted on 06/16/2014 9:09:54 PM PDT by Star Traveler (Remember to keep the Messiah of Israel in the One-World Government that we look forward to coming)
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To: Nifster

Oh yes, that’s definitely there. It’s said that because of disobedience Israel has forfeited the promises of God and that it’s now the “church” who is the new spiritual Israel and it has inherited the promises of God to Israel, because it’s the new spiritual Israel.

That was established in Catholic doctrine from way back in maybe around 300 or 400 AD and carried over in the Protestant Reformation, by default. It has produced “institutionalize anti-semitism” in the segment of the church that holds to this.

It’s also called supersessionism, too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supersessionism

You might also note that the majority of the Christian church, worldwide, holds to this ... and they are absolutely wrong!


5 posted on 06/16/2014 9:18:01 PM PDT by Star Traveler (Remember to keep the Messiah of Israel in the One-World Government that we look forward to coming)
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To: Star Traveler

Most Southern Baptist churches I went to taught that God would restore Israel to himself as he promised; and that the Church was made up of all believers from all tongues and tribes. However, the church was definitely not a replacement Israel in terms of what Israel becomes during the 1000 year reign of Christ!


6 posted on 06/16/2014 9:22:55 PM PDT by mdmathis6
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To: Nifster
I have never heard that line of preaching in a main stream Christian church[.]

If you're talking about mainstream Christianity in terms of major denominations, then you're talking about churches of those denominations that hardly, if ever, preach on prophecy. They frequently adopt post-millinealism or amillennialist theology. The pastors of these churches, if they speak on the Second Coming of Christ, frequently state that the Church of Jesus Christ has replaced Israel.

If you are talking mainstream Christianity limited to churches and denominations who follow the Reformed tradition of Christianity, then you are talking of churches, many of which heartily defend Replacement Theology. This is teaching in which the Church has replaced Israel as part of their stance as amillennialists. The amillennialist position is that the church is the New Israel.

Unfortunately, Replacement Theology is just simply full of holes in theology.
7 posted on 06/16/2014 9:27:57 PM PDT by righttackle44 (Take scalps. Leave the bodies as a warning.)
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To: mdmathis6

The USA has the MOST Christians in the world who don’t go along with Replacement Theology, but it’s pretty much the norm for rest of the Christian world.

You’ll find Replacement Theology doctrine in the Catholic Church, in the Lutheran Church and in the Presbyterian Church.

Where you encounter “Covenant Theology” you’ll encounter the idea that Israel has NO PLACE in God’s plans for the future (i.e., in prophecy). In other words, Israel has no more significance in God’s prophetic plans than does Malaysia or Sweden, or South Africa or Botswana.

Covenant Theology is rabidly opposed to Dispensationalism ... and Dispensationalism is the strongest source of support for Israel as prophetically significant in God’s plans for the future.


8 posted on 06/16/2014 9:35:08 PM PDT by Star Traveler (Remember to keep the Messiah of Israel in the One-World Government that we look forward to coming)
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To: Star Traveler

Neither Covenant theology nor Dispensationalism have any support in the plain word of God.


9 posted on 06/16/2014 9:37:52 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: Star Traveler

Dispensationalism or not...I just read it in the Bible. SB’s and much of American conservative Bible based churches get dinged a lot for that sentiment. \ Duhhh....All ahh knowed about it Bubba, is that Ahhh done read it in the Biahhble. \

I think I’ll go buy a duck call now(Go Phil!)...quack quack!


10 posted on 06/16/2014 9:44:28 PM PDT by mdmathis6
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To: Graybeard58

The article has some good points, but it crashes when it collides with Jacob’s prophecy concerning Joseph’s sons.

Why are so many so scared to deal with this most important prophecy?

Disappointing.


11 posted on 06/16/2014 9:45:06 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: editor-surveyor

Here’s something from Thomas Ice ...

WHAT IS DISPENSATIONALISM?
by Thomas Ice

Many evangelicals and liberals believe that dispensationalism is either downright heresy or close to it. In fact, few years ago, while pastor of a church, a lady in my congregation ask me, “Why is dispensationalism bad?” I asked what provoked her question. She had recently talked to a woman who knew that our church was dispensational. The women spoke harshly against dispensationalism to my congregate and warned her that it was unscriptural and no biblically responsible Christian should be involved in such heresy. For many, dispensationalism is a Christian cuss word! The lady in my church ask: “What is dispensationalism?” That is a good question. I hope to answer it in this article.

A CLUSTER OF ITEMS

Actually dispensationalism is a cluster of items joined together to form a system of thought. Just as terms like Calvinism, Arminianism, Anglicanism, Catholicism, or Lutheranism are historical labels that represent, not a single idea, but a group of items joined together to form a multifaceted scheme, so is dispensationalism. Dispensationalism is a term that arose in church history to label certain Christians who believe a group of certain things that are taught in the Bible.

Dispensationalists are those who believe the following things:

• The Bible is God’s inspired, inerrant (i.e., without any errors) revelation to man. Scripture provides the framework through which to interpret history (past and future). God’s written Word tells us of His plan for His creation and this will surely come to past.

• Since the Bible is God’s literal Word of His plan for history, it should be interpreted literally and historically (past and future).

• Since the Bible reveals God’s plan for history, then it follows that there is an ebb and flow to His plan. Therefore, God’s plan includes different dispensations, ages, or epochs of history through which His creatures (man and angels) are tested. Therefore, God is instructing His creatures through the progress of history, as His creation progresses from a garden to a city.

• Since all humanity fell into sin, each person must individually receive God’s provision of salvation through the death of Christ by believing the gospel. Thus, Jesus Christ is the only way to a relationship with God.

• Because of mankind’s fall into sin, Scripture teaches that all humanity is naturally rebellious to God and the things of God. This is why only genuine believers in Christ are open to the teachings of the Bible. Thus, salvation through Christ is a prerequisite to properly understanding God’s Word.

• God’s plan for history includes a purpose for the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob—that is Israel. This plan for Israel includes promises that they will have the land of Israel, will have a seed, and will be a worldwide blessing to the nations. Many of the promises to national Israel are yet future, therefore, God is not finished with Israel.

• God’s plan from all eternity also includes a purpose for the church, however, this is a temporary phase that will end with rapture. After the rapture, God will complete His plan for Israel and the Gentiles.

• The main purpose in God’s master plan for history is to glorify Himself through Jesus Christ. Therefore, Jesus Christ is the goal and hero of history.

In a nutshell, Christians who believe like this are known throughout Christendom as dispensationalists. I am a dispensationalist. We believe that it is the same as saying that I believe what the Bible literally teaches. Millions of Christians throughout the world are dispensationalists. In fact, the word “dispensation” occurs four times in the King James Version of the Bible (1 Cor. 9:17; Eph. 1:10; 3:2; Col. 1:25).

More at ...
http://www.pre-trib.org/data/pdf/Ice-WhatisDispensational.pdf


12 posted on 06/16/2014 9:52:53 PM PDT by Star Traveler (Remember to keep the Messiah of Israel in the One-World Government that we look forward to coming)
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To: editor-surveyor; Star Traveler

I think there have been periods where God seems to have moved in certain strategic ways and some periods where he has moved tactically and more overtly. I think, however Dispensationalists tend to try to straight jacket the word of God too tightly, with teachings that could lead to error. Dispensational thinking when I have examined it can lead one to the notion of a God who is a “shoot then standoff” sort of divinity when in reality, Paul states “In him we live and move and have our being, therefore He is not far from us at any time”


13 posted on 06/16/2014 9:53:24 PM PDT by mdmathis6
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To: Star Traveler

Protestant churches I have attended do not preach this. I have no idea what Romans say.


14 posted on 06/16/2014 10:15:09 PM PDT by Nifster
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To: Star Traveler

Another one for people ...

Dispensationalism

Since the positions and conclusions in Endtimes.org are in line with the Dispensational System of Theology, or point of view, the terms need to be explained. There is no need to fear these terms. They describe some simple concepts related to our understanding of the Old Testament Covenants and how God will develop His kingdom program. Even if you have negative feelings about the term Dispensationalism, please go through the following brief explanation of what it is. It could be that it has never been clearly explained. Dispensationalism has influenced the doctrinal beliefs of many churches, including the Baptist church, the Bible churches, the Pentecostal churches, and many other non-denominational Evangelical churches. You may even be Dispensational in your thinking although not be calling yourself a Dispensationalist. Christian is always a better term, but terms like Dispensationalist helps to define where we are coming from when it comes to our views on Endtimes and the present and future Kingdom of God.

[ ... ]

A greater breakdown of specific dispensations is possible, giving most traditional Dispensationalists seven recognizable dispensations.

— Innocence - Adam
— Conscience - After man sinned, up to the flood
— Government - After the flood, man allowed to eat meat, death penalty instituted
— Promise - Abraham up to Moses and the giving of the Law
— Law - Moses to the cross
— Grace - The cross to the Millennial Kingdom
— Millennial Kingdom - A 1000 year reign of Christ on earth centered in Jerusalem

[ ... ]

So what is the key to Dispensationalism?

The literal method of interpretation is the key. Using the literal method of interpreting the biblical covenants and prophecy leads to a specific set of core beliefs about God’s kingdom program, and what the future will hold for ethnic Israel and for the Church. We therefore recognize a distinction between Israel and the Church, and a promised future earthly reign of Christ on the throne of David. (The Davidic Kingdom.) This leads a person to some very specific conclusions about the Endtimes.

— Israel must be re-gathered to their land as promised by God.
— Daniel’s seventieth week prophecy specifically refers to the purging of the nation Israel, and not the Church. These were the clear words spoken to Daniel. The church doesn’t need purging from sin. It is already clean.
— Some of the warnings in Matthew 24 are directed at the Jews, and not the Church (since God will be finishing His plan with national Israel)
— A Pretribulation rapture - Israel is seen in Daniel as the key player during the tribulation, not the Church. God removes the elect when he brings judgment on the world. i.e. Noah, John 14, 1 Thess 4:16.
— Premillennialism - A literal 1000 year Millennial Kingdom, where Christ returns before the Millennium starts. Revelation 20 doesn’t give us a reason to interpret the 1000 years as symbolic. Also, Dispensationalists see the promised literal reign of Christ in the OT. Note the chronological order of events between Revelation 19-21.

[ ... ]

Some Dispensational writers

- Pierre Poiret (1646-1719)
- John Edwards (1637-1716)
- Isaac Watts (1674-1748)
- John Nelson Darby (1800-1882)
- C.I. Scofield (1843-1921)
- Lewis Sperry Chafer
- Charles Ryrie
- Dwight Pentecost
- John Walvoord

http://www.endtimes.org/dispens.html


15 posted on 06/16/2014 10:22:58 PM PDT by Star Traveler (Remember to keep the Messiah of Israel in the One-World Government that we look forward to coming)
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To: Nifster

The USA has the most of ANY PLACE in the world who don’t teach it ... which is why you find such strong support for Israel in the USA.


16 posted on 06/16/2014 10:26:09 PM PDT by Star Traveler (Remember to keep the Messiah of Israel in the One-World Government that we look forward to coming)
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To: Graybeard58
The following Scriptures help us to understand what God considers to be "Israel":

Romans 9:6

But it is not as though the word of God hath come to nought. For they are not all Israel, that are of Israel:

Romans 3:28-29

For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh:

but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.


Galatians 3:28-29

There can be neither Jew nor Greek, there can be neither bond nor free, there can be no male and female; for ye all are one man in Christ Jesus.

And if ye are Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, heirs according to promise.

17 posted on 06/17/2014 4:27:23 AM PDT by LearsFool ("Thou shouldst not have been old, till thou hadst been wise.")
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To: Graybeard58
A common misconception in Christian theology is that the church replaces Israel as the people of God under the new covenant…

Here the author has a major misrepresentation of orthodox Christian teaching about Israel and the church. The church does not replace Israel but is the continuation and expansion of Israel. Salvation through, and only through, Jesus Christ is open to all, both Jew and gentile. In the New Covenant the gentiles are grafted on to Israel and both receive salvation through obedience to God in Jesus Christ.

Those who wish to maintain a dual covenant, as well as being contrary to Scripture, confuse Israel with the Mosaic covenant. Israel existed before the Law of Moses. Indeed, the Law of Moses was a modification of the covenant that God already had with Israel. This covenant was again modified by God with the covenant with David. The final modification and fulfillment of the covenant was with Jesus Christ through whom both Jews and gentiles are called to salvation. Israel existed before the Law of Moses and continues to exist today in Jesus Christ after the Law of Moses.

18 posted on 06/17/2014 4:55:12 AM PDT by Petrosius
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To: Petrosius
Here the author has a major misrepresentation of orthodox Christian teaching about Israel and the church. The church does not replace Israel but is the continuation and expansion of Israel

Illegal aliens do not replace American citizens, they are the continuation and expansion of Americans. See how silly it sounds?
19 posted on 06/17/2014 5:26:03 AM PDT by Tzfat
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To: Tzfat
Illegal aliens do not replace American citizens, they are the continuation and expansion of Americans. See how silly it sounds?

But legal immigrants do become Americans, as millions have. Gentiles who come to Christ are not illegal.

But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, though testified to by the law and the prophets, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction; all have sinned and are deprived of the glory of God. They are justified freely by his grace through the redemption in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as an expiation, through faith, by his blood, to prove his righteousness because of the forgiveness of sins previously committed, through the forbearance of God—to prove his righteousness in the present time, that he might be righteous and justify the one who has faith in Jesus. What occasion is there then for boasting? It is ruled out. On what principle, that of works? No, rather on the principle of faith. For we consider that a person is justified by faith apart from works of the law. Does God belong to Jews alone? Does he not belong to Gentiles, too? Yes, also to Gentiles, for God is one and will justify the circumcised on the basis of faith and the uncircumcised through faith. Are we then annulling the law by this faith? Of course not!w On the contrary, we are supporting the law. (Romans 3:21-31)

For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; the same Lord is Lord of all, enriching all who call upon him. (Romans 10:12)

Before faith came, we were held in custody under law, confined for the faith that was to be revealed. Consequently, the law was our disciplinarian for Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a disciplinarian. For through faith you are all children of God in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christz have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free person, there is not male and female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendant, heirs according to the promise. (Galatians 3:23-29)

Therefore, remember that at one time you, Gentiles in the flesh, called the uncircumcision by those called the circumcision, which is done in the flesh by human hands, were at that time without Christ, alienated from the community of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, without hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have become near by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, he who made both one and broke down the dividing wall of enmity, through his flesh, abolishing the law with its commandments and legal claims, that he might create in himself one new person in place of the two, thus establishing peace, and might reconcile both with God, in one body, through the cross, putting that enmity to death by it. He came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near, for through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the holy ones and members of the household of God, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the capstone. Through him the whole structure is held together and grows into a temple sacred in the Lord; in him you also are being built together into a dwelling place of God in the Spirit. (Ephesians 2:11-22)


20 posted on 06/17/2014 5:56:14 AM PDT by Petrosius
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To: Petrosius

Illegal aliens claim they are morally legal too. Grafted INTO Israel, not the other way around. You want Jews to become Gentiles.


21 posted on 06/17/2014 7:01:16 AM PDT by Tzfat
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To: Tzfat

Answer St. Paul.


22 posted on 06/17/2014 7:15:54 AM PDT by Petrosius
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To: Petrosius
Here the author has a major misrepresentation of orthodox Christian teaching about Israel and the church. The church does not replace Israel but is the continuation and expansion of Israel. Salvation through, and only through, Jesus Christ is open to all, both Jew and gentile. In the New Covenant the gentiles are grafted on to Israel and both receive salvation through obedience to God in Jesus Christ.

Those who wish to maintain a dual covenant, as well as being contrary to Scripture, confuse Israel with the Mosaic covenant. Israel existed before the Law of Moses. Indeed, the Law of Moses was a modification of the covenant that God already had with Israel. This covenant was again modified by God with the covenant with David. The final modification and fulfillment of the covenant was with Jesus Christ through whom both Jews and gentiles are called to salvation. Israel existed before the Law of Moses and continues to exist today in Jesus Christ after the Law of Moses.

So this is why you're so solicitous of the poor "oppressed" Arabs.

Some people have absolutely no Biblical sentimentalism whatsoever.

23 posted on 06/17/2014 7:16:50 AM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (The Left: speaking power to truth since Shevirat HaKelim.)
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To: Zionist Conspirator
Some people have absolutely no Biblical sentimentalism whatsoever.

I have faith in Jesus Christ, the savior of Jews and gentiles alike, not sentimentalism.

24 posted on 06/17/2014 7:26:54 AM PDT by Petrosius
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To: Tzfat
Illegal aliens do not replace American citizens, they are the continuation and expansion of Americans. See how silly it sounds?

But legal immigrants who go through the naturalization process become American citizens, whose citizenship is not inferior to those who were born citizens. Just like those who are baptized enter into the Church, and are not inferior to those who entered before them.

Consider Romans 11

17And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 18Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 19Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. 20Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. 24For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
How else to interpret this, than for it to mean that those who were baptized have been grafted into Israel? And who were the branches that were broken off of Israel, if not those Israelites who rejected Jesus?
25 posted on 06/17/2014 7:39:18 AM PDT by PapaBear3625 (You don't notice it's a police state until the police come for you.)
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To: Petrosius
Answer St. Paul. No need. He answers you with Acts 28. Always a Jew, always a Pharisee, always kept the traditions of the fathers - and it wasn't antenicean "fathers" he was talking about. It was the Jewish sages he was talking about. Spend some time studying what those men taught and you will understand Paul like you never could studying men like Augustine the Platonist. Augustine, Aquinas, and Luther reinvented Paul by reinventing language and replacing Israel with a theological monstrosity called "the church."
26 posted on 06/17/2014 8:06:06 AM PDT by Tzfat
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To: Tzfat
Always a Jew, always a Pharisee, always kept the traditions of the fathers - and it wasn't antenicean "fathers" he was talking about. It was the Jewish sages he was talking about.

Are you referring to the Pharisees that Jesus had so much to say about?

27 posted on 06/17/2014 8:14:37 AM PDT by PapaBear3625 (You don't notice it's a police state until the police come for you.)
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To: Tzfat; PapaBear3625
You cannot get off that easily. I have not referenced anything by Augustin, Aquinas, Luther or anybody else. Please address the plain and clear words by Paul that PapaBear3625 and I have posted.
28 posted on 06/17/2014 8:35:28 AM PDT by Petrosius
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To: Star Traveler
Oh yes, that’s definitely there. It’s said that because of disobedience Israel has forfeited the promises of God and that it’s now the “church” who is the new spiritual Israel and it has inherited the promises of God to Israel, because it’s the new spiritual Israel.

Not "disobedience", but failure to "bear fruit", a theme that runs throughout the Gospels. For example John 15 and Luke 13.

29 posted on 06/17/2014 8:48:59 AM PDT by PapaBear3625 (You don't notice it's a police state until the police come for you.)
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To: Star Traveler

>> “Dispensationalism is a term that arose in church history to label certain Christians who believe a group of certain things that are taught in the Bible.” <<

.
Sorry!

That is total falsehood.

What dispys believe is nowhere to be found in the Bible.

They invent an “age of Grace” that if it exists runs from Adam to the final resurrection unto death.

All are under Grace.

Dispys distort what grace is so that they can invent an instantaneous “eternal security” that belies every word of Yeshua and his apostles.

They also invent a “rapture” that is secret, and not dependent upon the requirements that are plainly stated by Yeshua and Paul for the First resurrection.

Ice mixes things in that are not even at issue to those that see through the Dispy hoax. This is obviously intended to confuse the reader.


30 posted on 06/17/2014 9:04:17 AM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: Tzfat

>> Luther reinvented Paul by reinventing language and replacing Israel with a theological monstrosity called “the church.” <<

.
That much I definitely agree with.

There is no ‘church’ to be found in the Bible. Yeshua spoke of his “assembly” to his disciples, which assembly is indiscernible except to God.

Paul did not continue keeping the “traditions” after he was called by Yeshua on the Damascus road. Yeshua completely demolished each and every one of those traditions during his 70 week ministry on Earth. Everything about them was a violation of the prohibition against adding or subtracting from Torah.

It was the false law of traditions of the Pharisees that Paul scorned in his epistles. It was the law that could not be borne, that each of the apostles denounced vigorously.

Read the “woes” that Yeshua declared to the scribes and pharisees in Matthew 23; they are comprehensive!

Each of Yeshua’s miracles was a deliberate demolition of one of the Pharisees’ Takanot.
.


31 posted on 06/17/2014 9:21:09 AM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: PapaBear3625

The “branches” that were broken off were broken off long before Yeshua was born.

The biggest was Dan, from whose lineage will come the “antichrist.”
.


32 posted on 06/17/2014 9:26:17 AM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: righttackle44; Nifster

>> “Unfortunately, Replacement Theology is just simply full of holes in theology.” <<

.
Yes, but that can be said of all “theology.”

Theology is in every case invented by men.

It is words that cannot be found in the scriptures, or they would never have had to be written down.

There is Religion/Theology, and there is the plain word of Yehova, and never can the two coexist.
.


33 posted on 06/17/2014 9:37:46 AM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: Petrosius; Phinneous; Jewbacca
Some people have absolutely no Biblical sentimentalism whatsoever.

I have faith in Jesus Christ, the savior of Jews and gentiles alike, not sentimentalism.

Catholics and Orthodox have faith in J*sus because their churches tell them to. Fundamentalist Protestants have faith in J*sus because their bible tells them to. In both cases the sources of this faith is considered self-authorized, self-authenticating, and self-evidently true. In both cases they are wrong.

Of all the peoples and religions in the world, from the most ancient times down to today and for all time to come, only the Jews believe in the Torah because G-d told them to--directly, with no mediator or go-between.

Judaism was authorized by G-d. Other religions authorize their "gxds."

For what it's worth, I also disagree with the Vatican's double-talking endorsement of a "dual covenant." They don't really mean it (else they'd see the coming restoration of Biblical Israel as something to be welcomed as the Will of G-d); rather they use it as an excuse to promote religious relativism and indifference.

34 posted on 06/17/2014 10:08:24 AM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (The Left: speaking power to truth since Shevirat HaKelim.)
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To: Nifster
“A common misconception in Christian theology is that the church replaces Israel”

I have never heard that line of preaching in a main stream Christian church

It's a common caricature.

For a recent (and ignored) thread on this: The Church and Israel in the New Testament.

35 posted on 06/17/2014 10:23:57 AM PDT by Lee N. Field ("And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise" Gal 3:29)
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To: Nifster
Protestant churches I have attended do not preach this. I have no idea what Romans say.

By all means, you should read Paul's epistle to the Romans. It's foundational.

36 posted on 06/17/2014 10:29:51 AM PDT by Lee N. Field ("And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise" Gal 3:29)
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To: LearsFool
The following Scriptures help us to understand what God considers to be "Israel":

Careful. That kind of stuff can get you hissed at around here.

37 posted on 06/17/2014 10:36:29 AM PDT by Lee N. Field ("And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise" Gal 3:29)
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To: Tzfat
You want Jews to become Gentiles.

We want them to become Christians. Outside of Christ, there is no lasting good.

38 posted on 06/17/2014 10:47:27 AM PDT by Lee N. Field ("And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise" Gal 3:29)
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To: Lee N. Field

That’s okay. They did worse than that to the apostle Paul when he preached this same gospel.


39 posted on 06/17/2014 12:16:29 PM PDT by LearsFool ("Thou shouldst not have been old, till thou hadst been wise.")
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To: Zionist Conspirator
Of all the peoples and religions in the world, from the most ancient times down to today and for all time to come, only the Jews believe in the Torah because G-d told them to--directly, with no mediator or go-between.

Makes sense if you deny the divinity of Jesus. Otherwise, I believe in the Bible because God directly taught the apostles, who wrote letters and taught their successors. I don't believe in Jesus because a book tells me to. I believe in Jesus because I believe the Bible is an authentic (and authenticated) testament of those who God told to believe and teach.

40 posted on 06/17/2014 12:24:21 PM PDT by Tao Yin
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To: editor-surveyor

partially agree with the sentiment


41 posted on 06/17/2014 12:40:57 PM PDT by Nifster
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To: Lee N. Field

I know what Paul says to the Romans... I know and read both the Old and New Testaments.

Do you not understand that ‘romans’ refers to the church headed by a pope in Rome?


42 posted on 06/17/2014 12:42:05 PM PDT by Nifster
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To: Nifster

sorry, I should have read more closely.


43 posted on 06/17/2014 12:57:24 PM PDT by Lee N. Field ("And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise" Gal 3:29)
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To: Lee N. Field

that’s okay....I do that all too often myself. Something in this old brain of mine gets a hold of one thought and that’s all I can focus on....Someone usually takes the time to point it out to me (sometimes gently sometimes not so much). I hope I wasn’t too hard on you


44 posted on 06/17/2014 2:15:14 PM PDT by Nifster
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To: Graybeard58

An addition to the information on Dispensationalism ... which forms the BASIS for most Evangelical Christians in SUPPORT OF ISRAEL as STILL SIGNIFICANT in God’s prophetic timetable. The nation of ISRAEL is not only significant, but is ABSOLUTELY INDISPENSABLE in God’s timetable for the immediate future - and the setting up the Kingdom and One-World Government on this earth, over all the nations we see here now - with Jesus, the Messiah of Israel, ruling and reigning from the city of Jerusalem!

— — — — —

Dr. Mark Hitchcock discusses Dispensationalism as the main topic, but in doing so, also discusses Covenant Theology. Those are the two main “theologies” for how different Evangelical Christians view (i.e., “interpret”) what the Bible says about Israel, the Church, Prophecy, and other such related matters.

It’s a very good “educational” series of sermons given by Dr. Mark Hitchcock, who is the pastor of Edmond Bible Church (in Oklahoma). You’ll get a very good overview and understanding of this from Pastor Hitchcock.

You may have even seen him, yourself, on national TV - various news interview programs - as he is invited to many of them from time to time.

On the series of sermons below, you’ll see that one of them is by Dr. Charles Ryrie of Dallas Theological Seminary. It’s a name you should have heard of. It’s quite an honor for Faith Bible Church to have Dr. Ryrie speak at the church.

In addition, Dr. Hitchcock co-authored a book by Dr. John Walvoord of Dallas Theological Seminary - called Armageddon, Oil and Terror! If you don’t know Dr. John Walvoord, you should get to know him, as he’s considered the “godfather” (so to speak) of Prophecy in our modern Church age.

See below for a brief “bio” of Dr. Mark Hitchcock.

Faith Bible Church
http://edmondfaithbible.com

SERMONS

DISPENSATIONALISM- HELP OR HERESY?, PART 1
Preached by Dr Mark Hitchcock on November 7, 2007 (Wednesday Night).
http://edmondfaithbible.com/?page_id=502&sermon_id=249

DISPENSATIONALISM, PART 2
Preached by Dr Mark Hitchcock on November 14, 2007 (Wednesday Night).
http://edmondfaithbible.com/?page_id=502&sermon_id=251

DISPENSATIONALISM, PART 3
Preached by Dr Mark Hitchcock on November 28, 2007 (Wednesday Night).
http://edmondfaithbible.com/?page_id=502&sermon_id=262

DISPENSATIONALISM, PART 4
Preached by Dr. C. Ryrie on December 5, 2007 (Wednesday Night).
http://edmondfaithbible.com/?page_id=502&sermon_id=264

—— -—— -—— -—— -——

DISPENSATIONALISM
Preached by Dr Mark Hitchcock on April 28, 2010 (Wednesday Night).
(Part of the Dispensationalism series).
http://edmondfaithbible.com/?page_id=502&sermon_id=515

-—— -—— -—— -—— -——

This is a dated bio, but it does give the background, nonetheless:

Mark Hitchcock is a leading Bible prophecy expert, prolific author who has penned over 20 books on the end times, senior pastor, and adjunct faculty member of the Dallas Theological Seminary. He has appeared on hundreds of radio programs and in print as well as The History Channel, MSNBC, Fox, The Glenn Beck Show, and CNN. A leading Christian voice on Mayan 2012 prophecy, he is scheduled to appear on an NBC sci-fi special related to 2012 airing fall, 2009.

A former attorney, Mark initially worked for the Oklahoma Court of Criminal Appeals. Following a call to full-time ministry, today he serves as senior pastor of Faith Bible Church in Edmond, Oklahoma, just outside of Oklahoma City. He graduated from Dallas Theological Seminary in 1991, where he subsequently earned his doctorate in 2006 and more recently has served as an adjunct faculty member.

Hitchcock has been a contributing editor for the Left Behind Prophecy Club for many years. His new book 2012, the Bible, and the End of the World (Harvest House Publishers) will be released September 15, 2009. He has also recently released Cashless (July 1, 2009, also published by Harvest House), showing how today’s headlines foreshadow a new and vastly different economic future—a one-world economy that is consistent with Bible prophecy in Revelation 13.

Some of his other titles include: The Late Great United States: What Bible Prophecy Reveals about America’s Last Days; Armageddon, Oil, and Terror; Iran the Coming Crisis: Radical Islam, Oil and the Nuclear Threat; The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse; What On Earth is Going On?; Is America in Bible Prophecy?; The Coming Islamic Invasion of Israel; Is the Antichrist Alive Today?; Seven Signs of the End Times; and What Jesus Says About Earth’s Final Days.

Hitchcock maintains an active speaking schedule, appearing frequently at prophecy conferences, seminaries, and churches. He and his wife, Cheryl, live in Edmond, Oklahoma with their two sons Justin and Samuel.

Date of Birth: July 17, 1959

Place of Birth: Oklahoma City

Salvation: June 10, 1965 while watching Billy Graham on TV

Education: BS 1981 (Okla. State Univ.); JD 1984 (Okla. City Univ. School of Law); ThM 1991 (DTS); PhD 2005 (DTS) Dissertation topic: A Defense of the Domitianic Date of the Book of Revelation

Work: 1984–88 Attorney, Oklahoma Court of Criminal Appeals
Ministry: 1991–Present Senior Pastor, Faith Bible Church (Edmond, OK) Prophecy editor of an internet ministry The Left Behind Prophecy Club

Family: Married to Cheryl, Two sons, Justin and Samuel


45 posted on 06/17/2014 2:37:26 PM PDT by Star Traveler (Remember to keep the Messiah of Israel in the One-World Government that we look forward to coming)
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To: Graybeard58

A little bit more from Dr. Mark Hitchcock ...

Mark Hitchcock - The Rapture of the Church - Aloha Bible Prophecy (Full Version)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TYECFZC3-U


46 posted on 06/17/2014 2:53:47 PM PDT by Star Traveler (Remember to keep the Messiah of Israel in the One-World Government that we look forward to coming)
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To: Tao Yin; Zionist Conspirator

You say you believe ‘in’ Jesus?

If you believe what he preached, then you must hold Torah as foundational to his doctrine, because that is what he preached each and every day of his life. (and what he promised to do in Matthew 5)
.


47 posted on 06/17/2014 4:10:52 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: Nifster

Here’s one of the mainstream churches and an example of how “Replacement Theology” works out in everyday practice!

Presbyterian Leader to Jews: Abandon Israel For America
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/3169054/posts

In a posting on Facebook, Reverend Grimm addressed the Jewish people by writing, “America is the Promised Land. We all know this. Come to the land of opportunity. Quit feeling guilt about what you are doing in Palestine, Jewish friends. Stop it. Come home to America!”

While many Presbyterian divestment supporters have claimed that they are not against Israel’s existence, only its “occupation” of “Palestinian territory,” this latest incident appears to prove otherwise. In fact, many within the Presbyterian Church have begun to express alarm at the anti-Israel stance of much of their leadership. One group of prominent Presbyterian leaders recently noted that “Zionism Unsettled,” the pamphlet produced by Church members to make the case for divestment, had been endorsed by notorious white supremacist David Duke, who praised its utilization of racist terminology he originally popularized.


48 posted on 06/17/2014 5:00:00 PM PDT by Star Traveler (Remember to keep the Messiah of Israel in the One-World Government that we look forward to coming)
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To: Star Traveler

The promised land is what God gave to Abraham and his descendants, Israel... forever, not the Palestinians....so the Presbyterians should mind their own business...
I went to a Presbyterian church for several years, and I do not go there anymore.

America is a promised land for those called to be here, but the Jews of Israel should remain where God said he would protect them.


49 posted on 06/17/2014 5:06:06 PM PDT by Kackikat
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To: Star Traveler

Pressed Bitterians.
.


50 posted on 06/17/2014 6:10:05 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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