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Answering the Gay Christian Position
Christian Research Institute ^ | 06/24/2014 | Joe Dallas

Posted on 06/24/2014 1:43:56 PM PDT by SeekAndFind

Twenty-two years ago I craved justification for my homosexuality. I had decided I was gay, and I felt utterly incapable of changing my sexual desires. Instead of conforming my actions to biblical standards, I chose to adjust biblical standards to accommodate my actions.

My subsequent six-year involvement as a staff member of the pro-homosexual Metropolitan Community Church became the fruit of that compromise and remains a source of deep regret to this day.

During my tenure as a self-professed “gay Christian,” I was often confronted by believers who argued the standard passages on homo­sexuality. Like anyone steeped in propaganda, however, I knew which Scripture passages would be thrown at me (Lev. 18:22; 20:13; Rom. 1:26-27; 1 Cor. 6:9-10; 1 Tim. 1:9-10; all of which clearly condemn homosexuality) and could recite the pro-gay interpretation of each, leaving my Christian opponent and me at a stalemate.

The problem, of course, was that we were debating my revised view of the Bible without addressing the state of heart and mind that had led me to that revision in the first place.

Clearly there’s a place for arguing doctrine. When biblical integrity is discarded (as it surely is when pro-gay theology is adopted), then a stand for truth is mandated. Crucial to that stand, however — and often missing in our discussions with those in the pro-homosexual religious movement — is a willingness to include, then go beyond, a point/counterpoint approach to the biblical references to homosexuality. “Going beyond,” in this case, means asking questions of a broader, more penetrating nature.

When our friends who call themselves gay Christians insist that God approves of their orientation and behavior, we do well to chal­lenge the interpretation of Scripture they claim supports their position. When that debate con­cludes, however, they will often fall back on two general arguments by which they accept, and even celebrate, their homo­sexuality. The first is based on the seeming immutability of their sexual orientation; the second is their sense of God’s presence in their lives while they are openly and actively homo­sexual. Two questions come to mind as we consider these arguments.

* Is there a divine intent for sexual expression, and, if there is, how do we determine what it is?

When Troy Perry, homosexual activist and founder of the Metropolitan Community Church, writes about his sexual awakenings, he describes an encounter he had with another man. Although married (his wife, in fact, was in the adjoining room during Perry’s tryst), he explains his rationale for committing homosexual adultery:

“Eventually, I came to realize that what we were doing seemed right for me” (emphasis added).2 While admitting it did not constitute love, he nonetheless refers to the episode as “a marvelous education.”3 Consistent with this subjective approach to ethics, Perry’s first sermon to his newly formed church was titled, “Be True to You.”

Should the authenticity of our sexual desires be the criteria by which we judge their rightness? If so, one wonders whether pedo­philia, incest, or sadomasochism might not also be legitimized so long as they “seem right” to an individual.

The pro-gay apologist might indignantly argue that same-sex contact between consenting adults is a far cry from the horror of pedophilia or incest; yet that response evades the broader issue: Are we to conform our sexuality to a revealed intent or to our own deeply ingrained preferences? If we claim to be Bible-believing Christians (which most in the gay religious movement identify them­selves as), yet draw our moral conclusions not from Scripture but from our own passions, then a glaring contradiction exists and cries out for correction.

“But,” the gay apologist counters, “how could God condemn something I’ve tried so hard to overcome and even asked Him to remove?” Mel White, gay author and former ghostwriter to a stellar list of Christian leaders, argues this point in his autobiography Stranger at the Gate (Simon and Schuster). Movingly, he recounts years of prayer, psychotherapy, and shock treatment geared toward obliterating his homosexual desires. When all efforts to remove the temptation toward sex with other men failed, he determined by concession that, since his prayers to be relieved of homosexual feelings went unanswered, those feelings were therefore God ordained.

His testimony echoes that of hundreds of religious homosexuals who assume that un­wanted temptations that are not completely removed through prayer must therefore be feelings that cannot be removed at all; subse­quently, what cannot be removed at all must be, by its very immutability, legitimate. (E.g., “I prayed for God to remove my temptations, but some of them remained. Therefore, God must expect me to yield to them.”)

In contrast, Francis Schaeffer provides a better approach to the frustration of deeply ingrained temptations: “So I must ask, very gently: How much thought does (our identi­fication with Christ) provoke? Is it not true that our prayers for ourselves are almost entirely aimed at getting rid of the negative at any cost rather than praying that the negatives be faced in the proper attitude?”

Regarding sexual temptation, Schaeffer is more specific: “Here in the midst of life there is to be a strong choice, by the grace of God. It is not a matter of waiting until we no longer have strong sexual desires, but rather — we are to understand what Jesus means when He talks about denying ourselves that which is not rightfully ours.”

Placing the concept of being true to myself above self-denial, I (and I fear many like me in the gay church) decided homosexuality was natural because it came naturally to me. Having predetermined the rightness of it, I read that determination into the Bible rather than submitting that deter­mination to the Bible’s authority.

That is the crux of the problem. If there is a divine intent for our sexuality — and, indeed, there is — then we do well to face what it is, not what we wish it to be. To do less is to set ourselves up for a lethal combination of heresy and tragedy.

* Does God’s presence in our lives indicate His approval of our lifestyle? “I feel God’s presence in my life,” you’re likely to hear from someone aligned with the gay religious movement. “And at my church, people are born again, and God’s Spirit is manifest. How could that be if He disapproves of homosexuality?”

I can testify firsthand to the power of this line of reasoning. If, upon my first visit to a pro-gay congregation, I had encountered a Roman orgy in progress, it would have been easy to dismiss the very notion of “gay Christianity.” At the Metropolitan Community Church, however, I witnessed traditional hymns, sermons that were theologically conservative, and even an occasional altar call. Isn’t this evidence, I thought, that God sanctions homosexuality?

A cursory look at Paul’s first letter to the Corinthian church refutes this erroneous thinking. The Corinthians were carnal and full of divisions (1 Cor. 3:3-4), an incestuous relationship existed openly among them (1 Cor. 5:1-5), and drunkenness occurred during their communion celebrations (1 Cor. 11:21); yet God was present in their lives. At the very least, as born-again believers, they had the Spirit of God within them, however grieved the Holy Spirit may have been with their behavior.

Could God’s presence be construed to indicate His approval of their behavior? Hardly. Likewise, though our friends in pro-gay churches claim ongoing fellowship with Christ, their foundation is experiential, in contrast to the surer foundation Christ commended when warning against claiming a knowledge of Him apart from obedience to Him (Matt. 7:24-27).

All of this makes our encounters with those claiming to be gay and Christian reminiscent of an encounter between Jesus and a rich young ruler (Mark 10:17–23). Christ loved the young man and was acutely aware of the spiritual hunger posed in his question, “Good Master, what should I do to inherit eternal life?” Like our friends or loved ones in pro-gay churches, this young ruler obeyed many of the commandments, but something in his life — his riches, which he deemed invaluable — was holding him back. When Jesus put His finger on this one area, the ruler walked away, unwilling to relinquish and obey.

There, Mark’s account of the conversation ends; but who knows? Someday, perhaps years later, this same man may have reexamined the contrast between earthly and eternal wealth. Maybe Christ’s way of speaking truth — gently but firmly — never left his memory. Perhaps — just perhaps — he finally yielded what seemed so important, only to find a hundredfold more when his life was conformed to Christ’s word, then transformed by it.

I know it’s possible. The sound Bible teaching I received as a young Christian haunted me, pursuing me even in the midst of indescribable rebellion. It would not be ignored; truth finally conquered convenience when I realized I’d been kidding myself into believing what I wanted to believe, rather than what I truly believed.

As we address the issue of obedience and truth with our friends caught in the deception of pro-gay theology (and other self-serving theologies), we prayerfully hope they, too, may find the truer blessing of a yielded life.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Current Events; Moral Issues; Religion & Culture
KEYWORDS: dallas; gaychristian; homosexuality; joedallas

1 posted on 06/24/2014 1:43:56 PM PDT by SeekAndFind
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To: SeekAndFind

No such thing.


2 posted on 06/24/2014 1:44:53 PM PDT by Jim Robinson (Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God!!)
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To: SeekAndFind
the Gay Christian Position

Don't tell me, I don't want to know.

3 posted on 06/24/2014 1:47:35 PM PDT by ConservingFreedom (A goverrnment strong enough to impose your standards is strong enough to ban them.)
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To: SeekAndFind

homosexuals will not enter God’s Kingdom. neither will adulterers or fornicators. (1 Corinthians 6:9–11)

it is as plain as that. despite the effort to do so, there is no rationalization or excuse for sin.


4 posted on 06/24/2014 1:52:00 PM PDT by kingattax (a real American would rather die on his feet than live on his knees.)
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To: kingattax

The King James version uses the word ‘effeminate”.


5 posted on 06/24/2014 1:56:41 PM PDT by SeekAndFind
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To: SeekAndFind

>> Consistent with this subjective approach to ethics, Perry’s first sermon to his newly formed church was titled, “Be True to You.”

Time for some reductio ad absurdum:

Decapitating homosexuals and displaying their heads on pikes “seems right to me”. I need to be true to myself, right, Percy? Er... Perry?

Of course, God proscribes murder AND homosexuality. But if you can tear the pages out of your bible that document God’s hatred of homosex, I can tear the pages out of MY bible that call murder a sin.

Right? If not, why not?


6 posted on 06/24/2014 1:58:37 PM PDT by Nervous Tick (Without GOD, men get what they deserve.)
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To: kingattax

The Catholic Bible uses the word — SODOMITES


7 posted on 06/24/2014 1:59:04 PM PDT by SeekAndFind
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To: SeekAndFind

Whether you take a Biblical or a Darwinian perspective most homosexuals have it rough. The have a higher age adjusted death rate, more sickness, a higher incidence of mental illness and despite whatever legal “victories” they obtain, most remain inherently miserable and tortured.


8 posted on 06/24/2014 2:04:47 PM PDT by allendale
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To: Nervous Tick

RE: But if you can tear the pages out of your bible that document God’s hatred of homosex, I can tear the pages out of MY bible that call murder a sin.

Yep, that’s exactly what “progressive” churches are doing.

First, comes doubt about the inerrancy of scripture, after that... of course ANYTHING GOES.

I’ve even been to a Presbyterian church whose pastor teaches that Paul RE-INVENTED Christianity into something Jesus Himself would not recognize.

Therefore, he says he rejects - “Pauline Christianity”.


9 posted on 06/24/2014 2:04:58 PM PDT by SeekAndFind
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To: Nervous Tick

I go to a pro-murder Christian church.


10 posted on 06/24/2014 2:05:40 PM PDT by ConservativeInPA (We need to fundamentally transform RATs lives for their lies.)
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To: ConservativeInPA

>> I go to a pro-murder Christian church.

Why don’t you go somewhere else?


11 posted on 06/24/2014 2:07:36 PM PDT by Nervous Tick (Without GOD, men get what they deserve.)
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To: SeekAndFind
Phil Robertson answers that a 'Gay' Christian is an oxymoron ...

“Everything is blurred on what’s right and what’s wrong... Sin becomes fine,” he said. “Start with homosexual behavior and just morph out from there. Bestiality, sleeping around with this woman and that woman and that woman and those men.”

Paraphrasing Corinthians he added: “Don’t be deceived. Neither the adulterers, the idolaters, the male prostitutes, the homosexual offenders, the greedy, the drunkards, the slanderers, the swindlers—they won’t inherit the kingdom of God. Don’t deceive yourself. It’s not right.”


12 posted on 06/24/2014 2:08:28 PM PDT by Servant of the Cross (the Truth will set you free)
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To: SeekAndFind

so youre saying the Douay–Rheims Bible or “Catholic bible” uses a different term than the King James version.

thats a distinction without a difference.

im not sure what point youre trying to make


13 posted on 06/24/2014 2:09:33 PM PDT by kingattax (a real American would rather die on his feet than live on his knees.)
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To: allendale

>> most [homosexuals] remain inherently miserable and tortured.

Sadly for them, that’s to be expected. Homosex is of Satan.

And the faceless, anonymous, ruthless, relentless, and very effective homosexual mafia is one of the clearest manifestations I have ever seen of the “spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places” Paul wrote about in his letter to the Ephesians. (6:12)


14 posted on 06/24/2014 2:12:25 PM PDT by Nervous Tick (Without GOD, men get what they deserve.)
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To: SeekAndFind

Reading some of the replies, I noticed very few actually read the article you posted. Good find from CRI. Thanks.


15 posted on 06/24/2014 2:12:27 PM PDT by redleghunter (But let your word 'yes be 'yes,' and your 'no be 'no.' Anything more than this is from the evil one.)
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To: Nervous Tick

Because I can’t find one that breaks all of the commandments without consequence.


16 posted on 06/24/2014 2:14:44 PM PDT by ConservativeInPA (We need to fundamentally transform RATs lives for their lies.)
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To: SeekAndFind

There are many more arguments available to be put forth beyond the basic passages provided in scripture.

But first, the gospel must be preached.


17 posted on 06/24/2014 2:17:01 PM PDT by lurk
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To: SeekAndFind

Applies to ALL sexual immorality and actually coveting what God does not want us to have...

2 Kings 6:26b Elisha: “Is it a time to receive money and to receive clothes and olive groves and vineyards and sheep and oxen and male and female servants?”


18 posted on 06/24/2014 2:23:06 PM PDT by huldah1776
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To: SeekAndFind

The author came around to the right side of the argument, which is good. He makes some convincing counter arguments to present to the proponents of gay (non) Christianity.

They won’t listen, though. They only hear what they want to hear or they’d never twist the meanings in the Bible passages they way they have. They want to feel good about themselves and certify their own behavior and they do so at the expense of countless generations of Christian doctrine based on succinctly written words.

These fringe churches need to be isolated or their relativism will spread like a virus through the next generation. Tolerance has its place, but it can be a double edged sword.


19 posted on 06/24/2014 2:37:47 PM PDT by mom of young patriots
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To: SeekAndFind; kingattax
Actually, the KJV uses "abusers of themselves with mankind". The original Greek is "arsenkoites", or those who 'bed' other men (in a sexual way - it's the same word as 'coitus'). The NIV translates that as "homosexual offenders."

"Effeminate" is used for another behavior that will keep one from entering the kingdom of heaven - "malakos" in the original Greek. This is translated in the NIV as 'male prostitutes' but the same word - malakos - is used in other places in the Bible (in the Greek) to refer to those who are overly concerned with fashion and fine clothes.

I think it is important - and this supports what the author of the original article is trying to say - to recognize that the original Greek, and both English translations show that it is homosexual 'offenders' who are not fit to enter the kingdom of heaven. It's possible for someone who has homosexual desires - but controls them - to be Christian. It is the same as someone who has fully (and normal) heterosexual desires for a woman other than his wife - yet controls them. Or someone who has a tendency to alcohol addiction - yet controls it.

In our resurrection bodies, those desires of the flesh will no longer trouble us. Those who deny that these urges are sinful - and so rebel against God - are not fit to enter the kingdom of heaven.
20 posted on 06/24/2014 2:39:24 PM PDT by Phlyer
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To: SeekAndFind

There are no pro-gay Scriptures in the bible. Every time marriage is mentioned it is a man and a woman.

I notice the guy who committed adultery never mentioned scripture. He said it felt right. I’m sure pedophiles say the same thing.


21 posted on 06/24/2014 2:40:58 PM PDT by RginTN
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To: Phlyer

Romans Ch1 in last few paragrapha.


22 posted on 06/24/2014 2:43:21 PM PDT by Kackikat
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To: SeekAndFind

The question this man addresses is the very one that has always bothered me about these seemingly hypocritical so-called gay Christians. No matter how they decide to interpret or ignore various Bible verses, they can’t run from the Spirit.

Instead of obeying the Holy Spirit of the Lord, they have elevated their privates and their devotion to deviant sex to be their god. Jesus told us to deny ourselves and follow Him. These people indulge themselves and follow their own desires. I’m glad to see that the author of this article came to that realization and has chosen to follow the Lord rather than follow deviance and call it god.

He wrote this mentioning those of us who are confronted by those with misguided faith in their perversion. When they throw back their standard replies to the Bible’s clear message on homosexual behavior, instead of glaring at each other, we need to dig deeper, and show them that Christian heterosexuals also have to choose between living our own way and denying ourselves and following Christ. It’s not just about which interpretation of particular verses is correct. It is about what exactly the Lord is telling us to do. Did the Lord mean deny ourselves and follow Him or do we to our own selves be true and indulge ourselves? They may still walk away seemingly unchanged but if their have any honesty about their relationship to the Lord, the Holy Spirit may be able to plant a seed.

Thank you for posting this article.


23 posted on 06/24/2014 2:46:10 PM PDT by Waryone
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To: RginTN

“Every time marriage is mentioned it is a man and a woman.”

Or one man married to several women.


24 posted on 06/24/2014 2:46:34 PM PDT by Fuzz
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To: Phlyer
It's possible for someone who has homosexual desires - but controls them - to be Christian.

really ? whats the scriptural basis for that ?

Jesus said if a man even looks at woman with lust he is guilty of adultery as surely as if he had really committed the act. (Matthew 5:28).

25 posted on 06/24/2014 2:46:39 PM PDT by kingattax (a real American would rather die on his feet than live on his knees.)
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To: kingattax

If every man that looks at a woman with desire is barred from Heaven, it’s going to be awfully empty.


26 posted on 06/24/2014 3:01:31 PM PDT by Bratch
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To: SeekAndFind
the Gay Christian Position

Maybe in the Kama Sutra, but not in the Bible.

27 posted on 06/24/2014 3:21:43 PM PDT by mojito (Zero, our Nero.)
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To: SeekAndFind
As someone once put it, all heresies start below the belt.
28 posted on 06/24/2014 3:52:49 PM PDT by JoeFromSidney (Book: Resistance to Tyranny. Buy from Amazon.)
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To: kingattax
I was referring to the specific wording in 1 Cor 6:9-10, where it is homosexual 'offenders' who are not fit to enter the kingdom of heaven.

I think there is also a difference between 'desire' and 'lust' just as there is a difference between 'appreciate' and 'covet.' That difference is whether the 'desire' is recognized and suppressed as unwanted (i.e. under our control) or wallowed in with continuing fascination (out of control).

So, I think your reference (Matthew 5:28) is not necessarily relevant since it refers to 'lust.' I do not want to argue with homosexuals whether their desires are 'real.' That stops conversation and in our resurrection bodies they won't be a problem anyway. I want to counsel those who feel they are homosexual that if they control their desire - just as an alcoholic must control his desire for alcohol - then they can have hope in Jesus.

However, they must accept that their desires are sinful (as all of us have sinful desires) and must be controlled. The biggest problem I have with those who single out homosexuality as something uniquely terrible is that the Bible does not make this distinction. (James 2:10 - For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.)

So, a homosexual (someone who feels desire for the same sex) who accepts that his desires are sinful and controls them is no worse (and no better) than any of the rest of us. (Romans 3:23 - for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,)

The problem - as I read Scripture - is with those who set themselves up as higher authorities than God - who rebel against God and declare that their sins are not really sins at all. Those who accept Jesus as Lord (Acts 16:31) can be saved - but accepting him as Lord means that you do your best to suppress sinful desires - not that you don't have them.
29 posted on 06/24/2014 4:02:26 PM PDT by Phlyer
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To: Phlyer

2 Corinthians 5:17

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Romans 12:2

Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.


there is no such thing as a “gay Christian”, just as there is no such thing as a “former whatever sin i was involved in Christian”.

why is it necessary to have some sort of identifying label ? that is not scriptural.

also it is not scriptural to tell someone that its ok to think about a sin, just don’t do it. that is wrong and if this is something you are telling people, you will have to give an account to God for that. that is not counsel based on the Word of God.


30 posted on 06/24/2014 4:24:08 PM PDT by kingattax (a real American would rather die on his feet than live on his knees.)
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To: redleghunter

I’m glad you said that. I was thinking the same thing.

This young man had an awakening and I’m happy for him.


31 posted on 06/24/2014 6:38:21 PM PDT by Marie (When are they going to take back Obama's peace prize?)
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