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Did Kate Kelly’s Local Leaders Follow the Handbook [Lds leaders circumvent established procedures]
RationalFaiths.com ^ | June 17, 2014 | James Patterson

Posted on 06/26/2014 8:59:27 AM PDT by Colofornian

In his landmark work Jesus the Christ, James E. Talmage spends several pages outlining the “high priest’s unrighteous adjuration” of the Savior. The Sanhedrin wanted so badly to not only stem the growth of Jesus’ growing disciples, but to take back control of what he continued to point out as a broken religious system of Pharisees, Sadducees, hypocrisy, judgment and adherence to outdated laws that ignored the heart of his message of love, tolerance and spiritual growth.

Before I proceed, let me make it clear with those who are looking closely for opportunities to cry foul that I am not comparing Kate Kelly to Jesus Christ in the sense that she is a savior figure, or worthy of worship. She is as mortal and flawed as any of the rest of us.

This post does seek, however, to ask important questions about how Kate Kelly’s local leaders have handled her situation, as it relates to Mormonism’s closest thing to church law – the Church Handbook of Instructions.

Talmage painstakingly outlines a host of examples of how the Sanhedrin – the governing council of Jewish law – circumvented clearly established Jewish procedure in order to hastily try and convict Jesus of blasphemy. They held proceedings on the Sabbath. They did not call the proper witnesses. They did not provide the required evidence.

It would seem that, from the 30,000 foot view most of us have of the situation, the pending trial of Kate Kelly in Vienna, Va. contains much of the same circumventing of LDS procedure in order to come to a swift and, in my personal opinion, pre-determined outcome.

I do openly acknowledge that I have not been privy to all of Kate Kelly’s private conversations with her ecclesiastical leaders. Kate has, however been very open about them herself.

Some have suggested to me privately that Kate is not being entirely forthcoming about all of her interactions with her bishop and Stake President. I, however, have no reason not to take her at her word.

Outlined below are ways in which Kate Kelly’s leaders either knowingly or unknowingly circumvented established church procedure in bringing charges of apostasy against her.

We will start with President Wheatley.

Issue #1: Jurisdiction

Shortly before leaving the Washington, D.C. area to relocate to Utah, Kate Kelly met with her Stake President, Scott Wheatley and one of his counselors, Kenneth Lee. As a result of that meeting, Kate received a letter notifying her that she had been placed on informal probation.

Said informal probation was to include not holding a calling, giving talks, praying in public, sustaining church officers or “representing that you are a member in good standing.”

A couple of things blatantly at issue here.

First, the Handbook clearly states that the bishop is the first line of defense when it comes to church discipline [1]. Stake Presidents normally get involved when it comes to formal church discipline, and then only for Melchizedek Priesthood holders.

President Wheatley’s first move was to circumvent the church’s code of jurisdiction as outlined by the Handbook by not deferring to her bishop.

Issue #2: Informal Probation Restrictions

President Wheatley outlines some rather odd restrictions to be placed on Kate as a result of an informal probation.

For informal probation [2] , the Handbook discusses things like not taking the sacrament, not attending the temple (including handing in your temple recommend) and not exercising the priesthood (obviously not in play here).

What is striking here is that the more severe restrictions President Wheatley outlines are nowhere to be found in the recommendations of restrictions on those who are going through informal probation. So where did he come up with them?

Those restrictions come from a section on the formal church discipline of Disfellowshipment. [3]

President Wheatley placed disfellowshipment restrictions on Kate Kelly under the guise of informal probation.

All without a formal church court.

President Wheatley sentenced Kate to what is effectively a church prison without a trial.

Issue #3: Impropriety of Informal Probation

The Handbook clearly states that informal probation is NOT to be used when considering some of the more serious acts that formal discipline is meant to address. [4]

On that list are things like murder and incest. Not applicable.

But also on the list is Apostasy. The charge with which Kate is accused in the letter from her bishop.

President Wheatley never should have placed Kate Kelly on informal probation. Her case should have been taken immediately to formal discipline.

Issue #4: Written and (threatened) public notification of informal probation

We all know the church is big on keeping records. Which is why the Handbook clearly states that informal probation does not require ANY sort of paperwork to be done. In fact, it discourages it. [5]

The fact that President Wheatley took the time to write and email a letter to Kate is a not in line with the Handbook’s recommendation for handling informal discipline.

Issue #5: Threatening public announcement of informal probation status

According to Kate Kelly, the reason she came forward last week with the letters was because she was told by President Wheatley that if she did not comply with the demands he placed on her in regards to her (illegal) informal probation, he would go public with it. This, in response and seemingly retaliation to her public actions in conjunction with Ordain Women.

Anyone who knows anything about church discipline – formal or informal, knows this is a big No-No. The Handbook backs this up, with language instructing bishops (again, it’s so unusual for SPs to administer informal probation that the Handbook speaks in terms of the bishop’s actions) to not announce the decision to anyone, and keep only private records that he is to destroy later.

So, now we have Kate Kelly’s Stake President circumventing church policy in five specific ways:

1. Overriding the bishop’s jurisdiction 2. Placing inappropriate restrictions on her for informal probation 3. Improperly placing informal probation on her when her charges necessitated formal church discipline. 4. Keeping a formal record of her informal probation 5. Threatening to make public her informal probation

Those are troubling enough to me. But they don’t end there.

Kate received the email notifying her of her informal probation from President Wheatley on May 22.

On June 8, after she had already left for Utah, she received a letter from her bishop, Mark Harrison, notifying her of a formal disciplinary council being called to address the charge of Apostasy against her.

Let’s take a look at the issues surrounding that letter.

Issue #1: Mode of notification

When I served as a bishop’s counselor, I knew not only from reading the Handbook, but also from participating in a few church courts myself that all notifications of church disciplinary action being taken on an individual must be delivered to the accused in person, by two Melchizedek priesthood holders.

But wait, you say. Kate had already moved to Utah by then.

Yes. Which is why the church puts an exception into the notification rule. But it’s not email. [6]

If a member being summoned before a disciplinary council cannot be reached in person, the church officer issuing the letter “may” deliver the notification via certified mail, with return receipt requested where available.

“May” implies permission given. That’s standard use throughout the Handbook.

Thus, bishops are given special permission to step outside the normal rule (hand delivery by two MP holders) by sending via certified mail.

What’s lost here is the intent of this rule. Why two MP holders? Why certified mail with return receipt?

It seems to me that the Handbook is encouraging the “in the mouths of two or three witnesses” here. Multiple priesthood holders can attest to a successful delivery of the letter.

A return receipt implies that the post office (while obviously void of priesthood authority) is acting alongside the bishop as a witness that the letter was delivered properly.

Email falls outside these bounds. There is no proof of delivery. No guarantee that the receiver opened the email and received your message.

Can you send a regular court summons via email? No, and for good reason.

Bishop Harrison goofed when he sent his notification via email.

He seems here to be following the pattern of President Wheatley, which would suggest to me that their efforts were in some way coordinated.

Issue #2: No counsel provided

The Handbook makes it clear that, before resorting to church discipline, the presiding officer should attempt to meet with the individual to counsel over the issues at hand. This, understandably, is a course of action meant to stave off formal church discipline and allow the accused to repent on their own accord. [7]

According to multiple interviews with Kate, her bishop never once expressed an ounce of concern with her involvement with Ordain Women. Not when the website went up, not at the first public demonstration, not when church PR got involved and not at the second demonstration.

Here’s what Kate told the Salt Lake Tribune:

“I said [to my bishop] if you have any questions, please come to me first, let’s have a conversation about it. And he literally never approached me. Every Sunday, week after week, I saw him, I interacted with him, I had a calling. He never called me. He never stopped by my house. He never pulled me aside on any Sunday. He personally never called me in to have a conversation about this.”

The Handbook indicates that personal interviews are an opportunity for the accused to confess and forsake sin. Even if she stood at fault for any of her actions (I don’t believe she is at fault), Kate Kelly was never given a chance to personally confess to her bishop through a personal interview. This, after multiple personal interactions between Kate and Bishop Harrison.

Issue #3: Not giving adequate time to consider implications of formal church discipline or to gather facts

The Handbook takes formal church discipline very seriously. So much so, that it counsels bishops and stake presidents to wait until the accused has had a reasonable amount of time to consider the ramifications of a formal disciplinary hearing before scheduling the hearing. [8]

Bishop Harrison’s letter gives no time. In fact, he scheduled the hearing with absolutely no warning. Notification of discipline and scheduling of the council, all within the same few paragraphs.

The presiding officer is also encouraged to gather as much information as possible before deciding on a course of action. Presumably, this would include talking to the accused if they are amenable to discussing, no?

What Bishop Harrison should have done was to either visit with Kate prior to her departure, or call her in order to inform her that he was considering formal church discipline. See, this is the part where the accused gets an opportunity to speak openly with the accuser before “charges” are formally filed.

Bishop Harrison never even gave her that chance.

Issue #4: Official Wording

This one is nitpicky to be sure, but it highlights Bishop Harrison’s sloppiness.

The Handbook clearly gives specific wording the letter of notification of formal discipline is to contain. I’m quite sure this is for legal reasons. Words you might commonly hear on the news pertaining to people who have been accused – but not convicted – of a crime. [9]

Reading his letter…er….email, Bishop Harrison clearly is writing off the cuff here.

Again, a nitpick, but it speaks to the overall bypassing of the Handbook by Bishop Harrison.

Issue #5: Kate’s Relocation

This one is pretty important.

The Handbook clearly states that if a member moves while church discipline is being considered, the presiding officers in both locations are to consult together on the best course of action. Should action be taken in the member’s old ward or new ward? That’s up to both bishops to decide. [10]

We know that Kate had not been informed by her bishop before she moved that he was considering formal discipline. In fact, she has stated repeatedly in the last week that her bishop saw her just days before she pulled out of town to leave for Utah, and never mentioned a word of it.

“I saw him before I left, I gave him a hug and that was it,” Kate has said.

Bishop Harrison makes no indication in his letter to Kate that he consulted with Kate’s new bishop in Utah and they both, together, decided to hold the council in Virginia. In fact, there is clear indication that Bishop Harrison had no intention of moving her records at all, something he should have informed Kate of before she moved.

The Handbook encourages this communication between presiding authorities for several reasons. The availability of witnesses is one. I am not keen on this information specifically, but it is my understanding that several prominent Ordain Women leaders reside in Utah. Leaders who could have acted as witnesses on either side. Obviously, Church leaders – who told Ordain Women not to hold another demonstration during April Conference could act as witnesses against Kate – reside in Utah.

It would seem to me that a church court would actually make more sense in Utah. And yet, in his wisdom, it would seem he finds it completely appropriate to not only hold the council in Virginia, but not to bother discussing the matter with Kate’s new bishop.

So, Bishop Harrison seems to have circumvented the Handbook in the following ways:

1. Improper method of notification 2. Not providing any type of pastoral counsel prior to issuing notice of formal discipline 3. Not giving adequate time for accused to consider implications, or time to gather information 4. Official wording not used 5. Improperly handling her relocation

Church leaders have a sacred obligation to treat church discipline with the seriousness and preciseness inherent with threatening to strip someone of their membership.

What’s most striking about this issue is what position this has put Kate in. She has stated multiple times over the last week that the most frustrating thing is how “opaque” the church disciplinary process is.

Most church members would never know about these procedures, because the church keeps the Handbook strictly prohibited to Stake Presidencies and bishoprics.

While it may be in the church’s best interest to keep this information under a tight lid, it also makes abuse of power not only a real possibility, but much easier to pull off.

Because when the members don’t know the rules, it’s impossible to know if their leaders aren’t following them.

—————————–

[1] Church Handbook of Instructions, 6.8

[2] CHI, 6.8.2

[3] CHI, 6.9.2

[4] CHI, 6.9.1 “Formal probation is not an option when priesthood leaders administer Church discipline for a member who has been involved in any of the serious transgressions listed in 6.12.10”

[5] CHI, 6.8.2 paragraph 4

[6] CHI, 6.10.2, paragraphs 6 and 7

[7] CHI, 6.8.1 and 6.4 paragraph 1

[8] CHI, 6.10.2 paragraph 1

[9] CHI, 6.10.2 paragraphs 3, 4 and 5

[10] CHI, 6.2.7


TOPICS: Current Events; Moral Issues; Other non-Christian; Religion & Culture
KEYWORDS: excommunication; inman; katekelly; lds; mormonism
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
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On the one hand, the Mormon Church is a complex history of edicts issued from "on high" -- and I'm not talking about the Mormon gods and their councils.

On the other hand, I have the Mormon Church Handbook of Instructions referenced in this blog: It is indeed quite reflective of the Mormon Church's highly bureaucratic, legalistic ways.

And hence, in this case the "snare" -- as the Mormon Church seeks to simply dismiss some of its louder members by edicts from "on high." ... All as the Mormon Church Handbook of Instructions shows it's all to be done at the local level.

The timing of Kate Kelly's ex-communication -- coupled with other louder Mormonites (John Dehlin, Alan Rock Waterman) shows that indeed this is all a purge from "on high" -- in contradiction to locally-driven ex-communications. See, for example: 476-479: John Dehlin and Kate Kelly Discuss Possible Disciplinary Action (June 18, 2014)

And all of this hasn't been limited to those three prominent individuals: "According to Internet accounts there have been other people who have been spoken to by LDS leaders and some who support Ordain Women have had Temple Recommends taken away by their local leaders."
Kate Kelly Exed, John Dehlin & Rock Waterman Face Discipline (LdsRevelations.com, June 24, 2014)

Perhaps you are a Non-Mormon and from a Mormon perspective don't comprehend the magnitude of even taking away a temple recommend, let alone being ex-communicated.

#1
Mormon doctrine states that you need to reach the highest degree of glory to live with Heavenly Father forever. No temple recommend, no living with Him eternally in His presence. (How is that "heaven" if you can't live with the Glorious Host?)

#2
Mormon doctrine states that eternal families are ONLY for those who reach the highest degree of heaven. So from a Mormon perspective, no temple recommend, no "forever marriage" and no "forever family." In fact, without that temple recommend, your son or daughter might be married in the Mormon temple but you as a parent are shut out from viewing and experiencing it!

#3
Mormon doctrine states that without the highest degree of exaltation, you're supposed "eternal progression" toward becoming a god or goddess yourself will fail. No temple recommend, no godhood attainment for you.

1 posted on 06/26/2014 8:59:27 AM PDT by Colofornian
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To: Colofornian

Welcome back Colofornian!


2 posted on 06/26/2014 9:12:59 AM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion ( "I didn't leave the Central Oligarchy Party. It left me." - Ronaldus Maximus)
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To: aMorePerfectUnion; All
Thank you.

Two previous threads on these issues from this week:
Mormon Church Kicks the Beehive [ex-communications lined up] [From Mormonism Research Ministry's 'Mormon Coffee' blog]
Mormons oust Ordain Women's Kate Kelly over women priests

3 posted on 06/26/2014 9:28:03 AM PDT by Colofornian
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To: Colofornian

I guess she could be thankful the danites weren’t sent out for her.


4 posted on 06/26/2014 9:38:17 AM PDT by Godzilla (3/7/77)
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To: Colofornian
The rules in the CHI are flexible. There has always been a "elite" class, from the very top to the neighborhood churches. The mormon church has ALWAYS been "it's not what you do, but who you are" and women are always at the very bottom.

You won't find a lowly truck driver in the position of ward bishop.

5 posted on 06/26/2014 9:45:02 AM PDT by greyfoxx39 (Valerie Jarrett warned us they would "get even with those who opposed them"..)
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To: Colofornian

From: Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid

[Harvey has challenged Butch to fight for control of the Hole-in-the-Wall gang]
Butch Cassidy: No, no, not yet. Not until me and Harvey get the rules straightened out.
Harvey Logan: Rules? In a knife fight? No rules!
[Butch immediately kicks Harvey in the groin]
Butch Cassidy: Well, if there aint' going to be any rules, let's get the fight started. Someone count. 1,2,3 go.
Sundance Kid: [quickly] 1,2,3, go!
[Butch knocks Harvey out]


Dear Colofornian,

Are the Kate Kelly circumstances really that much different than the scene depicted in the movie?

If not, can you really expect a much different outcome?

/Zak

6 posted on 06/26/2014 9:45:43 AM PDT by Zakeet (If voting made any difference, they wouldnÂ’t let us do it - Mark Twain)
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To: aMorePerfectUnion

I don`t think there is any law that says she has to stay with the Mormon Church, if she don`t like it why didn’t she just leave?

On the other hand if she is a Mormon by being married to a Mormon man, then she should do what Paul told her to do which is just keep her mouth shut.


7 posted on 06/26/2014 10:46:30 AM PDT by ravenwolf
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To: Colofornian

From MormonCurtain

Kate Kelly’s Kangaroo Kourt
Tuesday, Jun 24, 2014, at 07:06 AM
Original Author(s): Kishkumen
Topic: JOHN DEHLIN AND KATE KELLY EXCOMMUNICATION

Now to the individual writings. Kaimi Wenger, over at the blog Times and Seasons makes a crucial point about the basic irregularity of the proceedings against Kate:
Today, the council announced that they had decided to excommunicate her, for “conduct contrary to the laws and order of the Church.”

This result is very troubling.

I have serious doubts about the substantive result here. I will set them aside for this post and instead focus on an important procedural matter: Sister Kelly was never informed that she was to be tried for “conduct contrary to the laws and order of the Church,” was never given a chance to defend herself from that charge, and was ultimately excommunicated for an offense to which she had no way of responding. This is astounding.

As noted on her website and in the media, Sister Kelly was informed by e-mail, on June 8th, that the bishopric was considering church discipline “on grounds of apostasy.”

In response, she submitted a letter explaining that she had not committed apostasy. This was necessary as the court was scheduled after she had left the state, so she could not attend in person. In addition, Nadine Hansen wrote an excellent brief, examining the question in detail and concluding that Sister Kelly did not commit “apostasy” as defined in the church handbook.

The brief may have been persuasive, since the bishopric did not in fact find Sister Kelly guilty of apostasy. However, they ruled that she should be excommunicated for “conduct contrary to the laws and order of the Church.”

This is an exceedingly troubling outcome. To arrive at this result, the bishopric must have done the following:

1. Brought new charges against Sister Kelly, at the hearing - a hearing in absentia, where she was not present
2. Decided to deliberate on those charges
3. Did not inform her of those charges
4. Did not allow her to make any statement in her defense regarding those charges
5. Made a decision on those charges
6. Excommunicated her, based on those new charges

All within a single day, all without providing the least notice to Sister Kelly.

http://mormoncurtain.com/


8 posted on 06/26/2014 11:02:19 AM PDT by Tennessee Nana
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To: ravenwolf

True, but like most agitators, they seek to change religions from within towards a more “progressive” position. I’m not a fan of agitators, especially in this sense, anti-Biblical. I’m no fan of LDS doctrine or teachings, but this woman is clearly agitating within the LDS. I don’t like it when Presby’s, Catholics, Episki’s, etc. do it, and I don’t like this either, even though it’s the LDS.

However, if the church has rules they’re supposed to follow with regards to discipline and possible ex-communication, then they should.

Otherwise, they undermine and compromise their own credibility. In addition, as the author pointed out, many of these regulations are confidential to all except the few who are in a position of authority. Very legalistic and exclusionary.

No spouse becomes a member simply through marriage...one has to take the “lessons”, request baptism and confirmation as member in order to gain membership into the LDS. However, there can be pressure applied to the non-member through emotional appeals to encourage them to join. They will use the “Families are forever” position and the potential guilt of having their spouse “married” to others once they are able to attain the Celestial Kingdom. There is also the temple wedding exclusion as well.

Any family member who does not hold a temple recommend is barred from attending the ceremony. So this becomes an “incentive” to join, so as not to miss out on significant family events. This is done via home teachers, visiting teachers, missionary visits, etc.


9 posted on 06/26/2014 11:04:04 AM PDT by SZonian (Throwing our allegiances to political parties in the long run gave away our liberty.)
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To: ravenwolf

1. Paul was a Christian not a Mormon

2 Paul was speaking to Christians not Mormons

2. Paul never said that women could not teach or preach in church or lay hands on the sick, or pray for anyone ...

3 Paul also told 12 year old boys to obey their mothers...Mormons have 12 year old boys lording it over all women including their own mothers

What would you do if your 12 year old son tried giving you or your wife orders backed up by the Mormon CEOs in Salt Lake City ???

that priesthood thingy in Mormonism is given to 12 year old boys along with authority to rule over grown women...

theres another difference with Christianity..

when the LORD Jesus Christ was 12 He obeyed his mother and father..

He was a grown man before He was given any authority and all of His Earthly life He was kind and courteous to His mother the Virgin Mary...

but not in Mormonism

12 year old boys are taught that they rule over all women...

because their priesthood idiocy gives them that so called “right”


10 posted on 06/26/2014 11:15:15 AM PDT by Tennessee Nana
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To: All
Vanity just posted: Time for new reformation re: understanding of Biblical priesthood, sainthood, & ordination [Vanity]
11 posted on 06/26/2014 11:29:19 AM PDT by Colofornian
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To: Tennessee Nana

I tend to agree with a lot of what you say about the Mormon Church although most of the ones I have been around and even lived in the same house hold with try to raise the kids right, the exception is religion in place of faith.

Religion is also the theme in many other Churches but to a lessor extent.

This we disagree on.
2. Paul never said that women could not teach or preach in church>>>>>>>

1Cotinthians 14
34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.

35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

What would you do if your 12 year old son tried giving you or your wife orders backed up by the Mormon CEOs in Salt Lake City ???>>>>>>

I have never saw that situation but there would be some butt kicking.

He was a grown man before He was given any authority>>>>>>

You are right and so many and not all just in the Mormon Church start trying to make the young into so called professors of religion before they are even dry behind the ears.

because their priesthood idiocy gives them that so called “right”>>>>>

This gives them power which makes every thing else including faith secondary.


12 posted on 06/26/2014 11:54:52 AM PDT by ravenwolf
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To: SZonian

No spouse becomes a member simply through marriage...one has to take the “lessons”, request baptism and confirmation as member in order to gain membership into the LDS.


You are right, some that I know became members of the Mormon Church just be cause their wife or husband was a member.

I also know some one who was a Mormon all of his life, he denounced the Mormon Church and married a seventh day Adventist woman and they have been together about 45 years.

But it does strike me as odd that any one would fight tooth and nail to stay in a Church or anything they disagree with unless they are making big bucks..

I also am not a fan of Mormon doctrine, in fact I am not a fan of religion in the strict sense of the word.


13 posted on 06/26/2014 12:17:26 PM PDT by ravenwolf
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To: ravenwolf

From what I can gather, she’s only disagreeing with one component of church doctrine...not to say she isn’t with others. I don’t know.

But as a former mormon married to a mormon, I can understand the draw in remaining a member, especially if one is a BIC or very long time member. The doctrine and all the trappings of LDS holds a special appeal if it’s all one knows...very hard to cut ties unless something dramatic has occurred.

Congrats to your acquaintance/friend on their marriage...me and my wife are approaching our 25th, even with our doctrinal differences! ;^)


14 posted on 06/26/2014 12:23:33 PM PDT by SZonian (Throwing our allegiances to political parties in the long run gave away our liberty.)
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To: Colofornian

CAUTION!! CHRISTIAN BASHING THREAD!!
This thread does not praise God. It weakens faith.
15 posted on 06/26/2014 12:39:51 PM PDT by laotzu
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To: Tennessee Nana; reaganaut; Elsie; All
...the bishopric did not in fact find Sister Kelly guilty of apostasy. However, they ruled that she should be excommunicated for “conduct contrary to the laws and order of the Church.” This is an exceedingly troubling outcome. To arrive at this result, the bishopric must have done the following:
1. Brought new charges against Sister Kelly, at the hearing - a hearing in absentia, where she was not present
2. Decided to deliberate on those charges
3. Did not inform her of those charges
4. Did not allow her to make any statement in her defense regarding those charges
5. Made a decision on those charges
6. Excommunicated her, based on those new charges
All within a single day, all without providing the least notice to Sister Kelly. http://mormoncurtain.com/

All more proof that the Mormon Church general Authorities are corrupt to the core. They think they can play hardbill at whim and will and that it somehow won't be called out in this internet-laden world?

The next question is: Will the average Joe Blow Mormon -- those that supposed "sustain" these corrupt General Authorities -- "go along" with it vs. ...
...making waves...
...risking their own temple recommend...
...or indirect threatened religious court marshal???

If they quietly go along, they are part of the corrupt problem.

16 posted on 06/26/2014 12:43:18 PM PDT by Colofornian
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To: laotzu
This thread does not praise God. It weakens faith.

This thread does NOT ignore MORMON Heresy! It exposes it!!!


17 posted on 06/26/2014 12:46:38 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: laotzu; Elsie; All
It weakens faith.

No apology there.

Misdirected "faith" absolutely needs to be redirected to a strong foundation.

Misdirected faith, strong or weak, is one of the foundational problems to begin with.

Btw, why does this post of yours ONLY show up on Mormon threads?

Where is it on Islamic and Scientology threads?

Or is it that you hypocritically sanction the "weakening" of faith in the gods of Scientology and Islam, after all?

18 posted on 06/26/2014 12:46:48 PM PDT by Colofornian
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To: laotzu
Sometimes eloquence is simply stated...
19 posted on 06/26/2014 12:48:23 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: ravenwolf; SZonian; Tennessee Nana; All
I don`t think there is any law that says she has to stay with the Mormon Church, if she don`t like it why didn’t she just leave?

I don't think there was any "law" that Martin Luther had to remain in "THE" church, either. Just because Luther saw abuses and a need for a reformation didn't equate to him starting a new church. He never sought to do that, and still considered himself part of the Church Universal.

('Twas his "Lutheran" adherents who deemed it to be a "separate" church after Luther's death)

20 posted on 06/26/2014 12:50:38 PM PDT by Colofornian
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To: Colofornian
Where is it on Islamic and Scientology threads?

They are not Christian. Mormons are.

21 posted on 06/26/2014 12:54:45 PM PDT by laotzu
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To: laotzu; Elsie; All
This thread does not praise God

(I guess you failed to click on the link provided in post #11, eh Laotzu?)
The link specifically cites 1 Peter 2:9: 9 But YOU are a chosen PEOPLE, a ROYAL PRIESTHOOD, a HOLY NATION, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.

(But we'll overlook your overlook)

22 posted on 06/26/2014 12:57:51 PM PDT by Colofornian
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To: laotzu; Elsie; All
They are not Christian. Mormons are.

#1...Now there's an assertive mouthful ... Care to make your best case for that, even if brief?

#2...So you are confessing that you are claiming to know beyond any shadow of doubt that all Scientologists are not Christian, is that right?

(Does that pass even your own personal "tolerance" test you impose upon others?)

23 posted on 06/26/2014 1:00:20 PM PDT by Colofornian
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To: laotzu; Colofornian; Elsie; svcw; Zakeet; Tennessee Nana; aMorePerfectUnion; Godzilla; fishtank; ..
laotzu post: CAUTION!! CHRISTIAN BASHING THREAD!! This thread does not praise God. It weakens faith.

Mormons are NOT Christian.

The reason Mormonism is not Christian is that it denies one or more of the essential doctrines of Christianity. Here is a basic list of what true Christianity teaches as essential doctrine according to the Bible.

There is only one God in all existence (Exodus 20:1-4; Isaiah 43:10; 44:6, 8; 45:5).

Jesus is divine (John 1:1, 14; 8:24; Col. 2:9)

Forgiveness of sins is by grace alone without works (Eph. 2:8-9; Rom. 3:28; 4:1-5)

Jesus rose from the dead physically (John 2:19-21; Luke 24:39) The gospel is the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus (1 Cor. 15:1-4)

Mormonism denies that there is only one God in all existence and also denies the forgiveness of sins alone in Christ alone. Therefore, it is outside Christianity. It is not a Christian religion.

stop claiming

Though Mormonism teaches that Jesus is God in flesh, it teaches that he is "a" god in flesh, one of three gods that comprise the office of the Trinity (Articles of Faith, by Talmage, pp. 35-40). These three gods are the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. This is in direct contradiction of the biblical doctrine that there is only one God

24 posted on 06/26/2014 1:02:39 PM PDT by greyfoxx39 (Valerie Jarrett warned us they would "get even with those who opposed them"..)
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To: Colofornian
your own personal "tolerance" test you impose upon others?

What are you on about?

25 posted on 06/26/2014 1:04:02 PM PDT by laotzu
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To: laotzu

Hypocrisy posting of the day.


26 posted on 06/26/2014 1:10:11 PM PDT by Godzilla (3/7/77)
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To: Godzilla

Where is the hypocrisy?


27 posted on 06/26/2014 1:11:26 PM PDT by laotzu
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To: laotzu; Elsie; greyfoxx39; All
Btw, did you choose your Webname on FR because of some of its Chinese roots (see Tao Te Ching: The "Ancient Child" Fallacy [Lao Tzu = 'bully...picking a fight'])...or other reasons?
28 posted on 06/26/2014 1:11:39 PM PDT by Colofornian
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To: laotzu

Did someone hijack your acct and make that post?


29 posted on 06/26/2014 1:12:36 PM PDT by Godzilla (3/7/77)
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To: Godzilla

Well, if you can’t answer....then quick! change the subject.


30 posted on 06/26/2014 1:15:27 PM PDT by laotzu
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To: laotzu
"They are not Christian. Mormons are."

Sources please...doctrine and teachings that are compatible with centuries of accepted Christian doctrine and teachings.

Bibilical references for;

- Jesus and Lucifer being celestial "brothers" conceived of the same celestial mother,

- the LDS temple rites,

- necro baptisms as a form of granting a "second chance" for salvation,

- polygamous celestial marriages;

- godhood for "worthy" priesthood holders,

- physical evidence of BoM peoples, cities and battles,

- only certain levels of worthiness permitted to dwell with God,

- unmarried women or women without a celestially "worthy" spouse married off to a "god" or made to be servants for more "worthy gods",

- Jesus has a plurality of wives,

- God the Father has a plurality of wives, etc.

31 posted on 06/26/2014 1:16:10 PM PDT by SZonian (Throwing our allegiances to political parties in the long run gave away our liberty.)
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To: Colofornian
What does that have to do with my own personal "tolerance" test that I impose upon others?

Colofornian, you are going to have to start making some sense.

32 posted on 06/26/2014 1:17:57 PM PDT by laotzu
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To: laotzu

Same lame comebacks. It would have been better if it was hijacked.


33 posted on 06/26/2014 1:18:23 PM PDT by Godzilla (3/7/77)
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To: SZonian
Sources please...

My Mormon brothers and sisters in Christ.

34 posted on 06/26/2014 1:19:04 PM PDT by laotzu
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To: Godzilla
You are still ducking your own assertion.

Where is the hypocrisy in my post #15?

35 posted on 06/26/2014 1:21:27 PM PDT by laotzu
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To: Colofornian

(’Twas his “Lutheran” adherents who deemed it to be a “separate” church after Luther’s death)


Ok, I will take your word on Martin Luther as I don`t know anything about him.


36 posted on 06/26/2014 1:22:08 PM PDT by ravenwolf
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To: laotzu

This isn’t some kind of word game...you made a claim and are now trying to parse without supporting or substantiating your own claim.

Truncated “comprehension” is not an answer...Biblical references for the short list of mormon teachings, doctrine and in some cases, beliefs that are in direct contravention of long established Christian doctrine, teachings and beliefs.


37 posted on 06/26/2014 1:26:30 PM PDT by SZonian (Throwing our allegiances to political parties in the long run gave away our liberty.)
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To: SZonian
This isn’t some kind of word game...you made a claim and are now trying to parse

I use too few words to constitute 'games' or 'parse'.

38 posted on 06/26/2014 1:32:47 PM PDT by laotzu
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To: SZonian

...me and my wife are approaching our 25th, even with our doctrinal differences! ;^)


Good deal and hope you have many more.


39 posted on 06/26/2014 1:34:46 PM PDT by ravenwolf
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To: laotzu; Godzilla
Where is the hypocrisy in my post #15?

I believe you answered your own question.

40 posted on 06/26/2014 1:44:52 PM PDT by Alex Murphy ("the defacto Leader of the FR Calvinist Protestant Brigades")
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To: Colofornian
Obviously, there's a FReeper who has his/her panties in a knot because you have brought up the CHI (mormon rule book) for discussion.

Photobucket

41 posted on 06/26/2014 1:45:46 PM PDT by greyfoxx39 (Valerie Jarrett warned us they would "get even with those who opposed them"..)
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To: laotzu

Dance a jig avoiding a cogent response...yeah, I get it, knew it before I posted...just checking to see if there was any legitimacy behind your posting and was confirmed there isn’t any, as usual.


42 posted on 06/26/2014 1:49:34 PM PDT by SZonian (Throwing our allegiances to political parties in the long run gave away our liberty.)
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To: ravenwolf

Thanks...


43 posted on 06/26/2014 1:50:54 PM PDT by SZonian (Throwing our allegiances to political parties in the long run gave away our liberty.)
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To: Alex Murphy
I believe you answered your own question.

Do you? I notice you won't answer it.

Where is the hypocrisy in my post #15?

44 posted on 06/26/2014 1:52:18 PM PDT by laotzu
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To: SZonian

Well, bye-bye then.


45 posted on 06/26/2014 1:57:10 PM PDT by laotzu
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To: laotzu; SZonian
I use too few words to constitute 'games' or 'parse'.

Must a game be comprised only of complex moves? "Checkers" is still a game. So is "tiddlywinks".

46 posted on 06/26/2014 1:59:31 PM PDT by Alex Murphy ("the defacto Leader of the FR Calvinist Protestant Brigades")
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To: Alex Murphy
Must a game be comprised only of complex moves? "Checkers" is still a game. So is "tiddlywinks".

The English language is incredibly complex.

47 posted on 06/26/2014 2:05:44 PM PDT by laotzu
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To: laotzu
They are not Christian. Mormons are.

They ARE?




48 posted on 06/26/2014 3:31:20 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: laotzu
My Mormon brothers and sisters in Christ.

So; you must agree with THESE statements by YOUR Brothers; RIGHT??




Questions put to Joseph Smith: "'Do you believe the Bible?' [Smith:]'If we do, we are the only people under heaven that does, for there are none of the religious sects of the day that do'. When asked 'Will everybody be damned, but Mormons'? [Smith replied] 'Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 119).
Joseph Smith: "for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible" (from Pearl of Great Price 1:12). "What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.270).
 
 
 
Brigham Young stated this repeatedly: "When the light came to me I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness" (Journal of Discourses 5:73); "The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God" (Journal of Discourses 8:171); "With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world" (Journal of Discourses 8:199); "And who is there that acknowledges [God's] hand? ...You may wander east, west, north, and south, and you cannot find it in any church or government on the earth, except the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (Journal of Discourses , vol. 6, p.24); "Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Testament defines Christianity" (Journal of Discourses 10:230).
 
 
 
Orson Pratt proclaimed: "Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'whore of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent" (The Seer, p. 255).
 
 
 
Orson Pratt also said: "This great apostasy commenced about the close of the first century of the Christian era, and it has been waxing worse and worse from then until now" (Journal of Discourses
, vol.18, p.44) and: "But as there has been no Christian Church on the earth for a great many centuries past, until the present century, the people have lost sight of the pattern that God has given according to which the Christian Church should be established, and they have denominated a great variety of people Christian Churches, because they profess to be ...But there has been a long apostasy, during which the nations have been cursed with apostate churches in great abundance" (Journal of Discourses , 18:172).
 
 
President John Taylor stated: "Christianity...is a perfect pack of nonsense...the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century." (Journal of Discourses , vol. 6, p.167); "Where shall we look for the true order or authority of God? It cannot be found in any nation of Christendom." (Journal of Discourses , 10:127).
 
 
 
James Talmage said: "A self-suggesting interpretation of history indicates that there has been a great departure from the way of salvation as laid down by the Savior, a universal apostasy from the Church of Christ". (A Study of the Articles of Faith, p.182).
 
 
 
President Joseph Fielding Smith said: "Doctrines were corrupted, authority lost, and a false order of religion took the place of the gospel of Jesus Christ, just as it had been the case in former dispensations, and the people were left in spiritual darkness." (Doctrines of Salvation, p.266). "For hundreds of years the world was wrapped in a veil of spiritual darkness, until there was not one fundamental truth belonging to the place of salvation ...Joseph Smith declared that in the year 1820 the Lord revealed to him that all the 'Christian' churches were in error, teaching for commandments the doctrines of men" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 3, p.282).
 
 
 
More recent statements by apostle Bruce McConkie are also very clear: "Apostasy was universal...And this darkness still prevails except among those who have come to a knowledge of the restored gospel" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol 3, p.265); "Thus the signs of the times include the prevailing apostate darkness in the sects of Christendom and in the religious world in general" (The Millennial Messiah, p.403); "a perverted Christianity holds sway among the so-called Christians of apostate Christendom" (Mormon Doctrine, p.132); "virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ whom they vainly suppose to be a spirit essence who is incorporeal uncreated, immaterial and three-in-one with the Father and Holy Spirit" (Mormon Doctrine, p.269); "Gnosticism is one of the great pagan philosophies which antedated Christ and the Christian Era and which was later commingled with pure Christianity to form the apostate religion that has prevailed in the world since the early days of that era." (Mormon Doctrine, p.316).
 
 
 
President George Q. Cannon said: "After the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized, there were only two churches upon the earth. They were known respectively as the Church of the Lamb of God and Babylon. The various organizations which are called churches throughout Christendom, though differing in their creeds and organizations, have one common origin. They all belong to Babylon" (Gospel Truth, p.324).
 
 
President Wilford Woodruff stated: "the Gospel of modern Christendom shuts up the Lord, and stops all communication with Him. I want nothing to do with such a Gospel, I would rather prefer the Gospel of the dark ages, so called" (Journal of Discourses , vol. 2, p.196).

49 posted on 06/26/2014 3:34:07 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: laotzu

My Mormon brothers and I agree WHOLEHEARTEDLY here!!!






"You see some classes of the human family that are black, uncouth, uncomely, disagreeable and low in their habits, wild, and seemingly deprived of nearly all the blessings of the intelligence that is generally bestowed upon mankind.

The first man that committed the odious crime of killing one of his brethren will be cursed the longest of any one of the children of Adam. Cain slew his brother. Cain might have been killed, and that would have put a termination to that line of human beings.

This was not to be, and the Lord put a mark upon him, which is the flat nose and black skin. Trace mankind down to after the flood, and then another curse is pronounced upon the same race--that they should be the 'servant of servants', and they will be, until that curse is removed."

Brigham Young-President and second 'Prophet' of the Mormon Church, 1844-1877- Extract from Journal of Discourses.



Here are two examples from their 'other testament', the Book of Mormon.

2 Nephi 5: 21 'And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people, the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.'

Alma 3: 6 'And the skins of the Lamanites were dark, according to the mark which was set upon their fathers, which was a curse upon them because of their transgression and their rebellion against their brethren, who consisted of Nephi, Jacob and Joseph, and Sam, who were just and holy men.'



August 27, 1954 in an address at Brigham Young University (BYU), Mormon Elder, Mark E Peterson, in speaking to a convention of teachers of religion at the college level, said:

"The discussion on civil rights, especially over the last 20 years, has drawn some very sharp lines. It has blinded the thinking of some of our own people, I believe. They have allowed their political affiliations to color their thinking to some extent.I think I have read enough to give you an idea of what the Negro is after."

"He is not just seeking the opportunity of sitting down in a cafe where white people eat. He isn't just trying to ride on the same streetcar or the same Pullman car with white people. It isn't that he just desires to go to the same theater as the white people. From this, and other interviews I have read, it appears that the Negro seeks absorption with the white race. He will not be satisfied until he achieves it by intermarriage."

"That is his objective and we must face it. We must not allow our feelings to carry us away, nor must we feel so sorry for Negroes that we will open our arms and embrace them with everything we have. Remember the little statement that we used to say about sin, 'First we pity, then endure, then embrace'...."

(Rosa Parks would have probably told Petersen under which wheel of the bus he should go sit.)



1967, (then) Mormon President Ezra Taft Benson said,

"The Communist program for revolution in America has been in progress for many years and is far advanced. First of all, we must not place the blame upon Negroes. They are merely the unfortunate group that has been selected by professional Communist agitators to be used as the primary source of cannon fodder."



We are told that on June 8, 1978, it was 'revealed' to the then president, Spencer Kimball, that people of color could now gain entry into the priesthood.

According to the church, Kimball spent many long hours petitioning God, begging him to give worthy black people the priesthood. God finally relented.



Sometime before the 'revelation' came to chief 'Prophet' Spencer Kimball in June 1978, General Authority, Bruce R McConkie had said:

"The Blacks are denied the Priesthood; under no circumstances can they hold this delegation of authority from the Almighty.

The Negroes are not equal with other races where the receipt of certain blessings are concerned, particularly the priesthood and the temple blessings that flow there from, but this inequality is not of man's origin, it is the Lord's doings."

(Mormon Doctrine, pp. 526-527).



When Mormon 'Apostle' Mark E Petersen spoke on 'Race Problems- As they affect the Church' at the BYU campus in 1954, the following was also said:

"...if the negro accepts the gospel with real, sincere faith, and is really converted, to give him the blessings of baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost, he can and will enter the celestial kingdom. He will go there as a servant, but he will get celestial glory."



When Mormon 'Prophet' and second President of the Church, Brigham Young, spoke in 1863 the following was also said:

"Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God is death on the spot. This will always be so."

(Journal of Discourses, Vo. 10, p. 110)





Yeah; Native Americans are althroughout the Book of MORMON; too.

 

“I saw a striking contrast in the progress of the Indian people today ... they are fast becoming a white and delightsome people.... For years they have been growing delightsome, and they are now becoming white and delightsome, as they were promised.... The children in the home placement program in Utah are often lighter than their brothers and sisters in the hogans on the reservation.

At one meeting a father and mother and their sixteen-year-old daughter were present, the little member girl-sixteen-sitting between the dark father and mother, and it was evident she was several shades lighter than her parents—on the same reservation, in the same hogan, subject to the same sun and wind and weather.... These young members of the Church are changing to whiteness and to delightsomeness.

One white elder jokingly said that he and his companion were donating blood regularly to the hospital in the hope that the process might be accelerated.

 

(Improvement Era, December 1960, pp.922-23). (p. 209)

 



 

50 posted on 06/26/2014 3:35:38 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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