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How Sex is Derailing Lutheran-Orthodox Dialogue
First Things ^ | 7/8/14 | Mathew Block

Posted on 07/08/2014 7:52:36 PM PDT by marshmallow

"The outcome of the dialogue in Tallinn was sobering, as it is difficult to come closer on substantive issues. The question of women’s ordination is regarded as church-dividing, at least from the Orthodox angle . . . Consequently I think we on the Lutheran side have to think about whether progress in dialogue is to be expected at all.”

These sobering reflections come from Rev. Dr. Jennifer Wasmuth, a participant in the Joint Commission for theological dialogue between the Lutheran World Federation (LWF) and the Orthodox Church, following recent discussions in Estonia. The meeting, which took place May 8-13, focused on the question of women’s ordination. If Wasmuth’s words above are anything to go by, it doesn’t sound like it was the most fruitful of discussions.

As Wasmuth explains, “The simple and crucial difference is that ordaining women is not recognized in Orthodox churches, while in most Lutheran churches it is not only recognized but already practiced.”

This is not exactly news—female ordination among churches of the Lutheran World Federation has been a perennial strain on ecumenical relations with the Orthodox (and Roman Catholics for that matter) for some time. The election of female bishops by some Lutherans has only exacerbated tensions. In 2010, for example, the election of a female bishop in the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland prompted statements of concern from the nation’s Catholic and Orthodox leaders. “As a theological decision, it is a step away from efforts toward unity,” Archbishop Leo of the Finnish Orthodox Church noted.

A year earlier, the election of a woman as head bishop of the Evangelical Church in Germany (EKD) brought a quick rebuke from the Russian Orthodox Church. “We planned to celebrate the 50th anniversary of our dialogue with the Lutheran Church in Germany in late November or early December,”.....

(Excerpt) Read more at firstthings.com ...


TOPICS: Ecumenism; Mainline Protestant; Orthodox Christian
KEYWORDS:

1 posted on 07/08/2014 7:52:36 PM PDT by marshmallow
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To: marshmallow

If the left cannot spread their corruption to that other church, there will be no merger.


2 posted on 07/08/2014 7:55:12 PM PDT by GeronL (Vote for Conservatives not for Republicans)
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To: marshmallow

apples and oranges


3 posted on 07/08/2014 7:57:39 PM PDT by yldstrk ( My heroes have always been cowboys)
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To: marshmallow
Metropolitan Hilarion summarized the problems at play in Orthodox-Lutheran dialogue in an interview with Der Spiegel. “Many Protestant churches have liberalized their notions of ethics, giving a theological justification to homosexuality and blessing same-sex couples,” he said. “Some refuse to consider abortion to be a sin. We do not share the understanding of the Church and church order, especially as the Protestants, unlike the Orthodox and Catholic Churches, ordain women.”
4 posted on 07/08/2014 7:58:23 PM PDT by iowamark (I must study politics and war that my sons may have liberty to study mathematics and philosophy)
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To: marshmallow

it isn’t welcomed - women pastors - in LCMS or WELS.


5 posted on 07/08/2014 8:01:04 PM PDT by Secret Agent Man ( Gone Galt; Not averse to Going Bronson.)
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To: marshmallow

We have to come together on this issue, else how can we get this ecumenical movement snowballing into a one world religion?


6 posted on 07/08/2014 8:05:07 PM PDT by BipolarBob (Obama - The Scandal a Week President.)
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To: BipolarBob

If you’re Christian, you have to be for “one world religion”.


7 posted on 07/08/2014 8:09:35 PM PDT by Romulus
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To: marshmallow

I wonder how the secret dialogue between the Catholic Church and the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod is going?


8 posted on 07/08/2014 8:29:45 PM PDT by vladimir998
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To: Romulus

“If you’re Christian, you have to be for “one world religion”.”

Yep. Protestants often just don’t get that.


9 posted on 07/08/2014 8:31:01 PM PDT by vladimir998
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To: marshmallow

How perceptive. Yes, for us Orthodox, women’s ordination to the presbyterate is a complete non-starter — even if another body confessed the creed without the filioque, held all the doctrines of the Seven Ecumenical Councils, maintained the Palamite understanding of grace, if they ordain women as priests, the Orthodox will not enter into communion with them.

The diaconate might be another matter. There plainly was an ancient order of deaconesses, but whether they ever functioned liturgically as deacons is a matter of great dispute, and the affirmative position that they did must be tempered with the fact that ancient canons forbid women entering the altar unless the be virgins over the age of 40 or widows living in chastity over the age of 60. There is also general opposition to any attempt to revive the order of deaconess.


10 posted on 07/08/2014 8:31:16 PM PDT by The_Reader_David (And when they behead your own people in the wars which are to come, then you will know...)
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To: Secret Agent Man
LCMS and WELS together add up to fewer than 3 million members--Combined, a sect of fewer than 1 in a hundred Americans. Hardly worth the noise they make.

They ought to consider rejoining the Mother Church, with whom they share more than with their apostate lutheran relatives.

11 posted on 07/08/2014 8:31:23 PM PDT by hinckley buzzard
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To: marshmallow; lightman

If Lutherans want unity with us Orthodox, they have to BECOME Orthodox!!!!

It’s the only way. Just getting rid of women/gay/transsexual pastors and “bishops” won’t work.

Trust me. I know!!!!


12 posted on 07/08/2014 8:32:16 PM PDT by Honorary Serb (Kosovo is Serbia! Free Srpska! Abolish ICTY!)
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To: hinckley buzzard

“share more”

we don’t join with those in more error, why we’d join with those with perhaps a little less error/different errors...? not a great biblical argument for joining. it’s still unionism/syncretism, but just a different flavor.

and i know you’ll say the same thing about lutherans vs rcc, so there we are.


13 posted on 07/08/2014 10:24:25 PM PDT by Secret Agent Man ( Gone Galt; Not averse to Going Bronson.)
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To: hinckley buzzard

hey don’t discount 1%.

1% of the population has made all the fortune 500 companies bend over for being pro-gay. the entire business climate revolves around sodomites’/as customers and the only stuf getting any political coverage besides the border and the caliphate the last year is gay everything.

1% can do just fine, especially when they’re on the good side.


14 posted on 07/08/2014 10:28:01 PM PDT by Secret Agent Man ( Gone Galt; Not averse to Going Bronson.)
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To: marshmallow

“Rev. Dr. Jennifer...”

I see part of the problem.


15 posted on 07/08/2014 10:30:26 PM PDT by Roos_Girl (The world is full of educated derelicts. - Calvin Coolidge)
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To: Secret Agent Man
it isn’t welcomed - women pastors - in LCMS or WELS.

And yet they aren't the kind of Lutherans that the Catholic Church wants to be ecumenical with. Funny thing that.

16 posted on 07/08/2014 11:13:59 PM PDT by Alex Murphy ("the defacto Leader of the FR Calvinist Protestant Brigades")
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To: Alex Murphy

it’s b/c they are genuine lutherans. they don’t compromise. they understand what unionism and syncretism mean.


17 posted on 07/08/2014 11:15:26 PM PDT by Secret Agent Man ( Gone Galt; Not averse to Going Bronson.)
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To: vladimir998

Sure we do.

But it won’t be unBiblical.


18 posted on 07/09/2014 1:42:52 AM PDT by Gamecock (There is room for all of God's animals. Right next to the mashed potatoes and gravy.)
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To: aberaussie; Aeronaut; aliquando; AlternateViewpoint; AnalogReigns; Archie Bunker on steroids; ...


Lutheran Ping!

Be rooted in Christ!

19 posted on 07/09/2014 1:44:55 AM PDT by lightman (O Lord, save Thy people and bless Thine inheritance, giving to Thy Church vict'ry o'er Her enemies.)
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To: The_Reader_David
The diaconate might be another matter. There plainly was an ancient order of deaconesses, but whether they ever functioned liturgically as deacons is a matter of great dispute, and the affirmative position that they did must be tempered with the fact that ancient canons forbid women entering the altar unless the be virgins over the age of 40 or widows living in chastity over the age of 60. There is also general opposition to any attempt to revive the order of deaconess.

AOCA Metropolitan PHILIP (Memory Eternal!) spoke favorably of women in the diaconate...it is in his authorized biography.

20 posted on 07/09/2014 1:49:17 AM PDT by lightman (O Lord, save Thy people and bless Thine inheritance, giving to Thy Church vict'ry o'er Her enemies.)
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To: vladimir998; marshmallow

If it’s a secret, how’d you hear about it? LOL


21 posted on 07/09/2014 2:20:39 AM PDT by 2ndDivisionVet (The most dangerous man to any government is the man who is able to think things out for himself.)
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To: Alex Murphy
And yet they aren't the kind of Lutherans that the Catholic Church wants to be ecumenical with.

Statement assumes facts not in evidence. Please present proof that any resistance to ecumenical discussion between the LCMS/WELS and the Vatican is coming from the Vatican.

Just as a point of fact, the Catholic Church's profession of faith does not refer to the senior leadership of the LCMS/WELS as "antichrist". (It doesn't refer to them at all, in fact.) The reverse is not true.

22 posted on 07/09/2014 5:11:07 AM PDT by Campion
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To: Romulus

If you’re Christian, you have to be for “one world religion”.

Why would a Christian except any religion?


23 posted on 07/09/2014 5:12:10 AM PDT by ravenwolf
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To: marshmallow

Talking to the wrong Lutherans.


24 posted on 07/09/2014 5:23:42 AM PDT by Lee N. Field ("He shall slay the dragon that is in the sea." Isaiah 27:1)
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To: marshmallow

Which is why the LCMS and affiliated synods now view ecumenical dialog with a lot more suspicion than before.


25 posted on 07/09/2014 5:31:08 AM PDT by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
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To: vladimir998

From what I have heard, after BXVI left it cooled a lot.

Francis isn’t as open to talking with the LCMS as Benedict was. I have heard a lot of things, but most are rumors, as to why.

Simply put, the hold up isn’t theology, it is philosophy.


26 posted on 07/09/2014 5:32:42 AM PDT by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
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To: lightman

In the words of those great 20th Century theologians and social observers, Sonny and Cher: and the beat goes on, and the beat goes on.


27 posted on 07/09/2014 5:39:26 AM PDT by RobinOfKingston (Democrats--the party of Evil. Republicans--the party of Stupid.)
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To: lightman

Yes. But Met. +PHILIP (memory eternal!) was a modernizer — clergy suits instead of cassocks (blessedly I’m in the Diocese of Wichita, where, except when Met. +PHILIP was actually physically present, clergy still wore and wear cassocks), cutting the ektenia before the Our Father out of the Liturgy, and the like. I stand by my assertion that there is general opposition to any attempt to revive the order of deaconess.


28 posted on 07/09/2014 6:54:53 AM PDT by The_Reader_David (And when they behead your own people in the wars which are to come, then you will know...)
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To: Romulus; vladimir998
If you’re Christian, you have to be for “one world religion”.

Let me guess . . . we should all be Catholic, right? The word catholic means universal does it not? If only there was some way to force people to accept. Maybe an impending world catastrophe or something. Yeah that would work. Convert or die. Wait a minute that's the Islam way.

29 posted on 07/09/2014 7:17:12 AM PDT by BipolarBob (Obama - The Scandal a Week President.)
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To: BipolarBob

Our Lord isn’t a bigamist. He has one bride.


30 posted on 07/09/2014 7:26:13 AM PDT by Romulus
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To: Romulus
He has one bride.

She ain't Catholic.

31 posted on 07/09/2014 8:02:20 AM PDT by BipolarBob (Obama - The Scandal a Week President.)
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To: BipolarBob

You don’t know what you’re saying.


32 posted on 07/09/2014 8:11:28 AM PDT by Romulus
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To: hinckley buzzard

Dump justification by works, papal infallibility, and the entirety of the Council of Trent and we’ll start talking.

You can keep the pimping hats, though.


33 posted on 07/09/2014 9:22:34 AM PDT by Luircin
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To: The_Reader_David

Interesting on the “modernizing”...similar pattern in the Diocese of Charleston regarding both cassocks and the ektenia before the Lord’s Prayer.

As best as I can recall that ektenia was used during a Hierachical Divine Liturgy I witnessed last June.


34 posted on 07/09/2014 10:31:45 AM PDT by lightman (O Lord, save Thy people and bless Thine inheritance, giving to Thy Church vict'ry o'er Her enemies.)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Just because it is a secret to you doesn’t mean it was secret to me. One of the guys who helped make the meeting happen told me about it.


35 posted on 07/09/2014 12:58:51 PM PDT by vladimir998
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To: redgolum

“From what I have heard, after BXVI left it cooled a lot.”

Actually the LCMS didn’t approach the pope about these talks until a few months ago. Pope Benedict had been out of office for about 8 or 9 months by that point.


36 posted on 07/09/2014 1:01:02 PM PDT by vladimir998
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To: BipolarBob

Did you skip your medication?


37 posted on 07/09/2014 1:02:07 PM PDT by vladimir998
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To: vladimir998

Over here on this side I’ve heard nothing.


38 posted on 07/09/2014 1:05:11 PM PDT by 2ndDivisionVet (The most dangerous man to any government is the man who is able to think things out for himself.)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Don’t feel bad. Almost none of the LCMS members know! This was all very hush-hush. It is a fluke that I happen to know about it. It might never be made public either.


39 posted on 07/09/2014 1:38:21 PM PDT by vladimir998
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To: Luircin; hinckley buzzard
You can keep the pimping hats, though.

No dissin' the hat. The Popes mitre is wicked cool. Whatever the Catholics shortcomings (I know it's a long list), they know hats.

40 posted on 07/09/2014 2:56:31 PM PDT by BipolarBob (Obama - The Scandal a Week President.)
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To: BipolarBob
No dissin' the hat. The Popes mitre is wicked cool. Whatever the Catholics shortcomings (I know it's a long list), they know hats.

Archbishop of Canterbury Justin Welby

"So there I was at Sea World...and suddenly it hit me.....cool huh?

41 posted on 07/09/2014 3:27:17 PM PDT by Covenantor ("Men are ruled...by liars who refuse them news, and by fools who cannot govern." Chesterton)
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To: Covenantor

Yeah, it’s got that Sea World thing going on for it alright. I’ve got to tip my hat to them on this one.


42 posted on 07/09/2014 3:33:57 PM PDT by BipolarBob (Obama - The Scandal a Week President.)
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To: BipolarBob
"Yeah, it’s got that Sea World thing going on for it alright. I’ve got to tip my hat to them on this one.

BipolarBob, that Archbishop with that hat is a protestant.

43 posted on 07/09/2014 3:52:52 PM PDT by Heart-Rest ("Our hearts are restless, Lord, until they rest in Thee." - St. Augustine)
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To: marshmallow
The situation has been exacerbated by the election of Elizabeth Eaton as Presiding Bishop of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA)
44 posted on 07/09/2014 6:43:58 PM PDT by lightman (O Lord, save Thy people and bless Thine inheritance, giving to Thy Church vict'ry o'er Her enemies.)
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To: Heart-Rest
BipolarBob, that Archbishop with that hat is a protestant.

So. I knew that. What's your point?

45 posted on 07/09/2014 7:16:13 PM PDT by BipolarBob (Obama - The Scandal a Week President.)
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Comment #46 Removed by Moderator

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