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The Hermeneutic of...Oh I Give Up.
Creative Minority Report ^ | 07/11/14 | Patrick Archbold

Posted on 07/12/2014 8:50:54 AM PDT by Legatus

Some Papal Quotes that somehow and in some way beyond my meager intellect are in continuity with each other, or something.

First Quote

Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441. ex cathedra (infallibly defined):
“The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has persevered within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” http://www.ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/FLORENCE.HTM#4

Second Quote

“I’m not interested in converting Evangelicals to Catholicism. I want people to find Jesus in their own community. There are so many doctrines we will never agree on. Let’s not spend our time on those. Rather, let’s be about showing the love of Jesus.” --Pope Francis 2014

Yeah. Umm. So. Discuss. Or something.

Bonus Quotes for discussion purposes.

Pope PIUS IX, the Holy Office-- THE SYLLABUS OF ERRORS CONDEMNED :
15. Every man is free to embrace and profess that religion which, guided by the light of reason, he shall consider true. --condemned Allocution "Maxima quidem," June 9, 1862; Damnatio "Multiplices inter," June 10, 1851.
16. Man may, in the observance of any religion whatever, find the way of eternal salvation, and arrive at eternal salvation. --condemned Encyclical "Qui pluribus," Nov. 9, 1846.
17. Good hope at least is to be entertained of the eternal salvation of all those who are not at all in the true Church of Christ. -- condemned
Encyclical "Quanto conficiamur," Aug. 10, 1863, etc.

18. Protestantism is nothing more than another form of the same true Christian religion, in which form it is given to please God equally as in the Catholic Church. --condemned Encyclical "Noscitis," Dec. 8, 1849.
http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius09/p9syll.htm
ll.htm


TOPICS: Catholic; General Discusssion
KEYWORDS: catholic; ecumenism; francis; pope; popefrancis; vatican
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1 posted on 07/12/2014 8:50:54 AM PDT by Legatus
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To: All

I’m not usually one to post something so inflammatory but I’m trying to work this out for myself and can’t.


2 posted on 07/12/2014 8:52:57 AM PDT by Legatus (Either way, we're screwed.)
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To: Legatus

In before the flamethrowers and jellied gasoline.


3 posted on 07/12/2014 8:57:42 AM PDT by Mrs. Don-o ("If thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." - Jesus Christ - Matthew 19:17)
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To: Legatus

I read somewhere that the different Churches were for the different people.


4 posted on 07/12/2014 9:00:31 AM PDT by mountainlion (Live well for those that did not make it back.)
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To: Legatus

I generally try to stay away from deep theology. No one seems to agree with anyone on all the details.

I picture evangelists, such as the first apostles, going to a land like India and spreading the gospel. Were some people saved? I sure hope so. Did those people understand with great precision all about baptism, confession, communion and other sacraments, purgatory, contraception, etc? Probably some of that stuff went over their heads or didn’t interest them.

I’m thinking that 2000 years ago, people could be saved without getting all the details “right”.

I am a sinner. I know it. I try to be better. My only hope is in Jesus because I don’t deserve to be in heaven, but perhaps through Grace I’ll make it there.

Why fight over divisive doctrine?


5 posted on 07/12/2014 9:01:02 AM PDT by ClearCase_guy ("Harvey Dent, can we trust him?" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBsdV--kLoQ)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

I became a Catholic because I believed what I thought the Church taught. I believed I had to enter the Church or face eternal hellfire for crying out loud. My father is a retired Nazarene minister, do you have any idea what my conversion did to my parents? (rhetorical) Now it sure looks like if I’d just waited 20 years I could have stayed where I was with papal approval.


6 posted on 07/12/2014 9:05:10 AM PDT by Legatus (Either way, we're screwed.)
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To: Legatus
In our elite, private all Girl Catholic High school that Jews and people of other faith simply couldn't make it.

We were told not to date them...and come prom time...don't even think about bringing a non-Catholic.

7 posted on 07/12/2014 9:09:43 AM PDT by Sacajaweau
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To: mountainlion
I read somewhere that the different Churches were for the different people.

Is that like "different strokes for different folks"?

8 posted on 07/12/2014 9:11:47 AM PDT by cloudmountain
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To: ClearCase_guy
I am a sinner. I know it. I try to be better. My only hope is in Jesus because I don’t deserve to be in heaven, but perhaps through Grace I’ll make it there.
Why fight over divisive doctrine?

Extremely well put.

9 posted on 07/12/2014 9:12:48 AM PDT by cloudmountain
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To: ClearCase_guy
I picture evangelists, such as the first apostles, going to a land like India and spreading the gospel

For your perusal: St. Thomas Christians

10 posted on 07/12/2014 9:13:33 AM PDT by Legatus (Either way, we're screwed.)
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To: cloudmountain

Is that like “different strokes for different folks”?

Don’t be talking strokes to us over 60.


11 posted on 07/12/2014 9:15:55 AM PDT by mountainlion (Live well for those that did not make it back.)
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To: Legatus
I became a Catholic because I believed what I thought the Church taught. I believed I had to enter the Church or face eternal hellfire for crying out loud. My father is a retired Nazarene minister, do you have any idea what my conversion did to my parents? (rhetorical) Now it sure looks like if I’d just waited 20 years I could have stayed where I was with papal approval.

Lol. Looks that way.
I'm sure your parents were devastated, appalled, disappointed and very sad at your conversion. But, I'm sure that they continued to pray and hope for another change of heart from you.
They will always be your folks and you are a product of their genes and upbringing. Since you are HERE they did a WHOLE lot right.

12 posted on 07/12/2014 9:16:29 AM PDT by cloudmountain
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To: Sacajaweau
I went to private, Catholic schools all my life (until college--Bezerkley) and I remain ETERNALLY grateful to God and my parents for that upbringing. It held me close during the absurdities of the 60's - present. And I SURE did need it when I got to Bezerkley.

It was a steadfast rudder that guided me FLAWLESSLY.

13 posted on 07/12/2014 9:20:34 AM PDT by cloudmountain
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To: mountainlion
Don’t be talking strokes to us over 60.

Lol, I know what you mean. I am looking at 70 right between the eyes.

I did have both of my lenses replaced, due to VERY EARLY onset of cataracts. However, I was once blind-as-a-bat and still have 20-20 vision. Thank the Lord for Kaiser and its fabulous health plans. Been with'em for DECADES, even when they weren't popular.

14 posted on 07/12/2014 9:23:29 AM PDT by cloudmountain
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To: ClearCase_guy

Truth is important. If you don’t know the truth, you don’t know Jesus. The sword that comes out of his mouth is the truth, because it both penetrates and divides.


15 posted on 07/12/2014 9:26:10 AM PDT by Romulus
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To: Sacajaweau

I was taught as a teen to not date Catholics because they were going to hell while you were being taught that I was going to hell and not date worthy as a protestant...

Religious experiences can really suck eggs.


16 posted on 07/12/2014 9:27:09 AM PDT by DariusBane (Liberty and Risk. Flip sides of the same coin. So how much risk will YOU accept? Vive Deco et Vives)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

“In my Fathers house there are many mansions.” Mr. Jesus H. Christ.


17 posted on 07/12/2014 9:27:27 AM PDT by Lurker (Violence is rarely the answer. But when it is it is the only answer.)
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To: Sacajaweau
The reason why you where told not to date them was because mixed faith marriages are often very difficult. Particularly amongst those who highly value and practice their respective religions.

Regardless of what we would like to believe in our secular society. Marriage is NOT for the benefit and happiness of their adherents. It is for the benefit of the children that a sexual act often produces and for the further benefit of the greater society. Often times nonreligious people become religious and even strongly so once they have children.

When people have differences as intimate as their beliefs in God and the idea of eternity and how to gain Paradise, undo pressure is applied to the union often leading to a dissolution of said marriage and a society that has children from broken homes with whom to contend.

The good sisters spoke quite wisely as to whether it was a good idea to date members of other religions as the reason to date is to find a mate.

18 posted on 07/12/2014 9:30:06 AM PDT by Jim from C-Town (The government is rarely benevolent, often malevolent and never benign!)
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To: Jim from C-Town

Look I don’t disagree that dating someone with a different religious background can be difficult and that is a legit reason to avoid that.

But as a protestant I was taught that Catholics were going to HELL. As were Orthodox, and probably Lutherans. Jews were famously condemned to hell by Pastor Bailey Smith of the Southern Baptist convention.

I think I will leave condemning to hell to Jesus.

The whole fascination and certainty of hell for other people is not what Christians should be thinking about. Pretty sure that Christians should focus on themselves and not worry about the spiritual status of their neighbors.


19 posted on 07/12/2014 9:38:02 AM PDT by DariusBane (Liberty and Risk. Flip sides of the same coin. So how much risk will YOU accept? Vive Deco et Vives)
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To: Legatus

Years ago, my wife and I attended a Serra club dinner for vocations. It was in a gymnasium at a Catholic university and packed with over 1200 faithful. The keynote speaker was a relatively well known, crusty old orthodox priest who pulled no punches. He said in the times we are living, you keep one eye on your local bishop, and the other on the Pope. If the local bishop goes against the Pope, close that eye. The local bishop was in attendance and was not known for his orthodoxy. He was visibly irritated.

I guess the corollary now is, we have two Popes. Keep one eye on each, and if one goes against the teachings of the perennial Church, close that eye.


20 posted on 07/12/2014 9:38:31 AM PDT by Brian Kopp DPM
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Comment #21 Removed by Moderator

To: Legatus
I'm not really going to defend the Pope's comments, because I think he muddies the issue (I'm not persuaded that he, himself, is very clear on the issue in his own mind).

However, the thing you have to keep in mind is that there's such a thing as inculpable ignorance. (Note to the folks in Rio Linda: "ignorance" and "stupidity" aren't the same thing. "Ignorance" is the state of not knowing something that is nevertheless true. Everyone is ignorant of many things at all times; it's not pejorative.)

That's why VC 2 said:

In explicit terms [Jesus] Himself affirmed the necessity of faith and baptism and thereby affirmed also the necessity of the Church, for through baptism as through a door men enter the Church. Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.
(Lumen Gentium 14)

That clause beginning with "... knowing" is a restrictive clause. Some people never hear of Christ. Some people never hear that the Church claims "[to have been] made necessary by Christ". Some people hear it but don't agree with it.

Despite that, God may be able to save some of those people. Should we have "good hope" of their salvation? Not necessarily, although we shouldn't despair of it, either.

Where I fail to be impressed with the Pope is that he failing to preach clearly that truth contained in the clause beginning with "knowing that".

22 posted on 07/12/2014 9:46:39 AM PDT by Campion
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To: Brian Kopp DPM

Or get them both focused in both eyes.

23 posted on 07/12/2014 9:46:58 AM PDT by Mrs. Don-o ("Stone cold sober, as a matter of fact.")
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To: mountainlion

But God created all men in his image.


24 posted on 07/12/2014 10:00:35 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: DariusBane
Well, I think it is incredibly important to consider the spiritual status of a person with whom I would date. Simply because dating’s ultimate goal is sexual gratification in marriage. At least that was what it was prior to the introduction of the feminist movement.

Since we have divorced sexual activity from procreation by the use of artificial contraception and the abortion culture. it has become considerably more difficult to understand not only why it is better to be married to a person of the same belief system. It also has made it questionable as to whether it is even important if the person you marry is even of the opposite sex. Or even as to why you couldn't marry multiple people of multiple sexes.

To put it bluntly. If the Catholic Church is ,as so many here on FR believe, the Whore of Babylon, than all Catholics will go to Hell.

If it is, as the Church of Rome and it's two dozen aligned Churches agree, only possible to gain access to heaven through adherence to the teachings of the one true Church, than all Protestants, Jews and any other who professes and follows a different religion will most certainly burn in Hell for all eternity.

Take heart, either way we will have lots of company with all the Cafeteria Catholics and probably myself as I am certainly full of sin.

As I always tell the Jehovah’s Witnesses when they come to my door: “I am a Catholic. I can not be saved. Have you seen the rules of the Catholic Church? They publish them in the Catechism. No One can live like that!”

http://www.usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catechism/catechism-of-the-catholic-church/epub/index.cfm

25 posted on 07/12/2014 10:01:34 AM PDT by Jim from C-Town (The government is rarely benevolent, often malevolent and never benign!)
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To: Sacajaweau

That was a very succinct and ultimately unhelpful and somewhat silly response.

That often happens when one’s own reality is shattered by the facts.


26 posted on 07/12/2014 10:03:45 AM PDT by Jim from C-Town (The government is rarely benevolent, often malevolent and never benign!)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

That makes the contrast even more difficult to bear. Can we have our Pope BXVI back now, please?!?


27 posted on 07/12/2014 10:05:49 AM PDT by Brian Kopp DPM
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To: Brian Kopp DPM

That must have been a sight.

Serra is still alive and active.

http://serraus.org/


28 posted on 07/12/2014 10:06:38 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Brian Kopp DPM

Wouldn’t that be great.


29 posted on 07/12/2014 10:11:29 AM PDT by NKP_Vet
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To: Sacajaweau

Could you elaborate?


30 posted on 07/12/2014 10:18:08 AM PDT by Jeff Chandler (Conservatism is the political disposition of grown-ups.)
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To: Legatus; Mrs. Don-o

I think the Pope appears to have a rather minimalist, charismatic view of Christianity, where it’s all about feeling and all about “me” and how I feel - that, at least, seems to be a big part of his very 1980s style.

That’s all well and good, and I do think we can certainly find common ground with Protestants on many things in the Faith. But again, that’s only with Trinitarian Protestants - and why do I stress that?

Because in a sense there is no such thing as Protestantism, since the only thing these groups have in common is that they reject the Church. Some Protestants are Trinitarian, many are only vaguely so, and many really aren’t at all and are just Unitarians without the New England background; some Protestants accept the traditional Christian moral code, but many if not most have abandoned it and some openly advocate against it; and - well, you get the idea.

What the Pope appears not to understand is that the Church is all about preserving the deposit of Truth. Some Protestant churches preserve more of it than others. But none of them would have preserved it without the Church, the foundation, and I think the Pope has got to remember that he is the one responsible for preserving that foundation.

Engaging in devotional activities together is a good thing and I think we should do more of it. But making it sound as if there is no such thing as truth and nothing really matters is not only wrong but defeats and disappoints Protestants as much as it does Catholics.


31 posted on 07/12/2014 10:21:28 AM PDT by livius
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To: DariusBane

“I think I will leave condemning to hell to Jesus.”

As a Christian, we’re supposed to be and act like Jesus as much as possible, except when it comes to judging and condemning, because only He has been granted these powers, which is what He claims.

“Pretty sure that Christians should focus on themselves and not worry about the spiritual status of their neighbors.”

Jesus didn’t come here to focus only on Himself and His followers. He came here to save us all spiritually. And in His Great Commission, he commanded His followers to make disciples of others. So Jesus would disagree on your point.


32 posted on 07/12/2014 10:24:39 AM PDT by Vision Thing (obama wants his suicidal worshipers to become suicidal bombers.)
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To: Vision Thing

Jesus made a point of shaming Pharisees. Jesus was no fan of people clucking quietly under the breath at sectarian nonsense. Jesus could see the heart, we cannot.

Jesus was, is, God. We are not.

I will leave being God to God. I, you, we are not qualified.

That does not mean that we cannot choose with whom we associate with. I steer clear of drug and alcohol abusers, wife beaters, thieves, larcenists, and pedophiles. I am also not a big fan of evangelical atheists, global warming fanatics and lesbian feminists.

Don’t care for child abusers, or people who fight dogs. I make all kinds of distinctions as does everybody else who wants to live long and prosper.


33 posted on 07/12/2014 10:48:22 AM PDT by DariusBane (Liberty and Risk. Flip sides of the same coin. So how much risk will YOU accept? Vive Deco et Vives)
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To: Legatus
I'm not interested in converting Catholics to Evangelicalism. I'm interested in their coming to Christ individually and personally, not through the false filter of any church. No church has ever saved a single soul from damnation. We are saved by Christ Himself when we completely accept the truth of what He said:

"I am the Way, the Truth and the Life. No one comes to the Father but by Me."

34 posted on 07/12/2014 11:11:56 AM PDT by Dr. Thorne ("Don't be afraid. Just believe." - Mark 5:36)
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To: Dr. Thorne; Legatus
Thorne, that seems to imply that Christ founded a church for no reason; that it is called the Body of Christ for no reason; that it is called the Bride of Christ for no reason.

As much as to say: I follow Christ; but the Body of Christ? Strictly optional.

35 posted on 07/12/2014 11:19:03 AM PDT by Mrs. Don-o ("If they refuse to listen even to the Church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.")
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To: Legatus
Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441. ex cathedra (infallibly defined):

Ex Cathedra...Infallible...Right from the lips of God...No Protestants in heaven...No one in heaven except a water dripped Catholic...

This papal bull is just that, Bull!!!!

I can't believe you people fall for this...

36 posted on 07/12/2014 11:20:42 AM PDT by Iscool
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To: Legatus
Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441. ex cathedra (infallibly defined): “The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has persevered within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” http://www.ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/FLORENCE.HTM#4

I'm so glad that "Sola scriptura" thingy is so bogus / S

37 posted on 07/12/2014 12:04:11 PM PDT by Popman ("Resistance to Tyrants is Obedience to God" - Thomas Jefferson)
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To: Iscool
I can't believe you people fall for this...

Not to put too fine a point on it, but you sound like an atheist. I fell for this madcap teaching that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, fully God and fully man, born of a virgin, crucified, died, buried, risen then ascended to Heaven... I already believe the most insane things.

Believing that only those who enter through the narrow gate abide with God in Heaven isn't really a stretch, that's why I became Catholic in the first place, because I didn't want to spend eternity in hell with the rest of the semi-believers.

Now we have a pope who makes statements that sound like I was fine where I was after all. That confuses and annoys me.

38 posted on 07/12/2014 12:05:10 PM PDT by Legatus (Either way, we're screwed.)
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To: Jim from C-Town

Good post!


39 posted on 07/12/2014 12:07:51 PM PDT by ebb tide (And the assembled fathers began to laugh, and then to cheer...)
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To: Legatus

There was a letter or paper by Benedict, I think, in which he referred to protestants as Christian communities. Do you know what I’m talking about? It was, I believe, a few years ago...maybe at the beginning of his papacy (is that the right way to say it?)

Serious question. I’m not know as a Catholic basher.


40 posted on 07/12/2014 12:16:40 PM PDT by xzins ( Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! Those who truly support our troops pray for victory!)
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To: Legatus
I didn't want to spend eternity in hell with the rest of the semi-believers.

semi-believers???

Humm...so if I reject the papal (a mere mortal man) authority over my life and have embraced the Word of God as truth, have full faith in the shed blood of Christ to redeem me from my sins and have been baptised in his name, I'm a semi believers destined to go to hell...?

Just checking...

41 posted on 07/12/2014 12:18:29 PM PDT by Popman ("Resistance to Tyrants is Obedience to God" - Thomas Jefferson)
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To: xzins
You're referring to Dominus Iesus and yes, I remember it. It was published when he was still cardinal Ratzinger. I think the term was "ecclesial communities".
42 posted on 07/12/2014 12:22:36 PM PDT by Legatus (Either way, we're screwed.)
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To: Vision Thing; DariusBane
>> As a Christian, we’re supposed to be and act like Jesus as much as possible, except when it comes to judging and condemning, because only He has been granted these powers, which is what He claims.<<

“Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment.” John 7:24

The Greek word for judge is “krino” and it means “to call into question”. And the next verse requires that we discern what is correct.

2 Timothy 4:2 preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching.

"The mouth of the righteous speaketh wisdom, and his tongue talketh of judgment." (Psa. 37:30)

I Corinthians 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

Hmmm……follow what scripture says or follow what you say?

43 posted on 07/12/2014 12:23:59 PM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ)
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To: Mrs. Don-o; Dr. Thorne; Legatus
>>As much as to say: I follow Christ; but the Body of Christ? Strictly optional.<<

Those who follow Christ alone and not some organization ARE the body of Christ.

44 posted on 07/12/2014 12:26:10 PM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ)
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To: Legatus; Campion
It annoys a lot of Catholics. This Pope should be quiet about HIS feelings and be vocal about the true teachings of the Church. They are unchanging. As campion pointed out. There is no deviation. Those who KNOWINGLY turn from the Truth suffer the consequences. You heard the truth and understood it as true. You acted. You are now in the same boat as all Catholics. We KNOW we can't be saved by belief alone. We must strive for Christ like perfection and pray for the mercy of God.
45 posted on 07/12/2014 12:26:25 PM PDT by Jim from C-Town (The government is rarely benevolent, often malevolent and never benign!)
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To: Iscool
>>I can't believe you people fall for this...<<

And then fall for just the opposite!!! Yet they will deny their duplicity while vociferously proclaiming the Catholic Church never changes it's doctrine.

46 posted on 07/12/2014 12:28:40 PM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ)
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To: Popman

In RE: Semi believers.

It was an off the cuff, made up phrase but yes, before I became Catholic I came to believe that outside of the Catholic Church there was no salvation. Now we have a pope who seems to say otherwise, in a big way. Some of his pronouncements make it seem like he believes that INSIDE the Church there is no salvation.

I wrote “semi” believers because people outside of the Church seem to believe almost everything necessary, but not all of it.


47 posted on 07/12/2014 12:29:47 PM PDT by Legatus (Either way, we're screwed.)
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To: Legatus
>>people outside of the Church seem to believe almost everything necessary, but not all of it.<<

”believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved – and your house”

What do you think Paul left off when he answered the Jailer? Did the Holy Spirit forget to inspire Paul to write the rest of the answer?

48 posted on 07/12/2014 12:35:01 PM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ)
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To: Legatus
This part agrees with Francis. See the parts I've placed in bold and underlined:

however, those who are baptized in these communities are, by Baptism, incorporated in Christ and thus are in a certain communion, albeit imperfect, with the Church.62 Baptism in fact tends per se toward the full development of life in Christ, through the integral profession of faith, the Eucharist, and full communion in the Church.63

“The Christian faithful are therefore not permitted to imagine that the Church of Christ is nothing more than a collection — divided, yet in some way one — of Churches and ecclesial communities; nor are they free to hold that today the Church of Christ nowhere really exists, and must be considered only as a goal which all Churches and ecclesial communities must strive to reach”.64 In fact, “the elements of this already-given Church exist, joined together in their fullness in the Catholic Church and, without this fullness, in the other communities”.65 “Therefore, these separated Churches and communities as such, though we believe they suffer from defects, have by no means been deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Catholic Church”.66

The lack of unity among Christians is certainly a wound for the Church; not in the sense that she is deprived of her unity, but “in that it hinders the complete fulfilment of her universality in history”.67

I think Francis is saying nothing more than that you don't need to convert already converted people, that the focus is on the unconverted. Proselytism is OK, apparently, but it isn't evangelism.

I think he's right.

49 posted on 07/12/2014 12:35:28 PM PDT by xzins ( Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! Those who truly support our troops pray for victory!)
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To: CynicalBear
What do you think Paul left off when he answered the Jailer?

That's just my point, believe all of it or don't bother believing any of it.

50 posted on 07/12/2014 12:37:44 PM PDT by Legatus (Either way, we're screwed.)
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