Skip to comments.The Hermeneutic of...Oh I Give Up.
Posted on 07/12/2014 8:50:54 AM PDT by Legatus
Some Papal Quotes that somehow and in some way beyond my meager intellect are in continuity with each other, or something.
Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441. ex cathedra (infallibly defined):
“The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has persevered within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” http://www.ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/FLORENCE.HTM#4
“I’m not interested in converting Evangelicals to Catholicism. I want people to find Jesus in their own community. There are so many doctrines we will never agree on. Let’s not spend our time on those. Rather, let’s be about showing the love of Jesus.” --Pope Francis 2014
Yeah. Umm. So. Discuss. Or something.
Bonus Quotes for discussion purposes.
Pope PIUS IX, the Holy Office-- THE SYLLABUS OF ERRORS CONDEMNED :
15. Every man is free to embrace and profess that religion which, guided by the light of reason, he shall consider true. --condemned Allocution "Maxima quidem," June 9, 1862; Damnatio "Multiplices inter," June 10, 1851.
16. Man may, in the observance of any religion whatever, find the way of eternal salvation, and arrive at eternal salvation. --condemned Encyclical "Qui pluribus," Nov. 9, 1846.
17. Good hope at least is to be entertained of the eternal salvation of all those who are not at all in the true Church of Christ. -- condemned
Encyclical "Quanto conficiamur," Aug. 10, 1863, etc.
18. Protestantism is nothing more than another form of the same true Christian religion, in which form it is given to please God equally as in the Catholic Church. --condemned Encyclical "Noscitis," Dec. 8, 1849.
I’m not usually one to post something so inflammatory but I’m trying to work this out for myself and can’t.
In before the flamethrowers and jellied gasoline.
I read somewhere that the different Churches were for the different people.
I generally try to stay away from deep theology. No one seems to agree with anyone on all the details.
I picture evangelists, such as the first apostles, going to a land like India and spreading the gospel. Were some people saved? I sure hope so. Did those people understand with great precision all about baptism, confession, communion and other sacraments, purgatory, contraception, etc? Probably some of that stuff went over their heads or didn’t interest them.
I’m thinking that 2000 years ago, people could be saved without getting all the details “right”.
I am a sinner. I know it. I try to be better. My only hope is in Jesus because I don’t deserve to be in heaven, but perhaps through Grace I’ll make it there.
Why fight over divisive doctrine?
I became a Catholic because I believed what I thought the Church taught. I believed I had to enter the Church or face eternal hellfire for crying out loud. My father is a retired Nazarene minister, do you have any idea what my conversion did to my parents? (rhetorical) Now it sure looks like if I’d just waited 20 years I could have stayed where I was with papal approval.
We were told not to date them...and come prom time...don't even think about bringing a non-Catholic.
Is that like "different strokes for different folks"?
Extremely well put.
For your perusal: St. Thomas Christians
Is that like “different strokes for different folks”?
Don’t be talking strokes to us over 60.
Lol. Looks that way.
I'm sure your parents were devastated, appalled, disappointed and very sad at your conversion. But, I'm sure that they continued to pray and hope for another change of heart from you.
They will always be your folks and you are a product of their genes and upbringing. Since you are HERE they did a WHOLE lot right.
It was a steadfast rudder that guided me FLAWLESSLY.
Lol, I know what you mean. I am looking at 70 right between the eyes.
I did have both of my lenses replaced, due to VERY EARLY onset of cataracts. However, I was once blind-as-a-bat and still have 20-20 vision. Thank the Lord for Kaiser and its fabulous health plans. Been with'em for DECADES, even when they weren't popular.
Truth is important. If you don’t know the truth, you don’t know Jesus. The sword that comes out of his mouth is the truth, because it both penetrates and divides.
I was taught as a teen to not date Catholics because they were going to hell while you were being taught that I was going to hell and not date worthy as a protestant...
Religious experiences can really suck eggs.
“In my Fathers house there are many mansions.” Mr. Jesus H. Christ.
Regardless of what we would like to believe in our secular society. Marriage is NOT for the benefit and happiness of their adherents. It is for the benefit of the children that a sexual act often produces and for the further benefit of the greater society. Often times nonreligious people become religious and even strongly so once they have children.
When people have differences as intimate as their beliefs in God and the idea of eternity and how to gain Paradise, undo pressure is applied to the union often leading to a dissolution of said marriage and a society that has children from broken homes with whom to contend.
The good sisters spoke quite wisely as to whether it was a good idea to date members of other religions as the reason to date is to find a mate.
Look I don’t disagree that dating someone with a different religious background can be difficult and that is a legit reason to avoid that.
But as a protestant I was taught that Catholics were going to HELL. As were Orthodox, and probably Lutherans. Jews were famously condemned to hell by Pastor Bailey Smith of the Southern Baptist convention.
I think I will leave condemning to hell to Jesus.
The whole fascination and certainty of hell for other people is not what Christians should be thinking about. Pretty sure that Christians should focus on themselves and not worry about the spiritual status of their neighbors.
Years ago, my wife and I attended a Serra club dinner for vocations. It was in a gymnasium at a Catholic university and packed with over 1200 faithful. The keynote speaker was a relatively well known, crusty old orthodox priest who pulled no punches. He said in the times we are living, you keep one eye on your local bishop, and the other on the Pope. If the local bishop goes against the Pope, close that eye. The local bishop was in attendance and was not known for his orthodoxy. He was visibly irritated.
I guess the corollary now is, we have two Popes. Keep one eye on each, and if one goes against the teachings of the perennial Church, close that eye.
However, the thing you have to keep in mind is that there's such a thing as inculpable ignorance. (Note to the folks in Rio Linda: "ignorance" and "stupidity" aren't the same thing. "Ignorance" is the state of not knowing something that is nevertheless true. Everyone is ignorant of many things at all times; it's not pejorative.)
That's why VC 2 said:
In explicit terms [Jesus] Himself affirmed the necessity of faith and baptism and thereby affirmed also the necessity of the Church, for through baptism as through a door men enter the Church. Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.(Lumen Gentium 14)
That clause beginning with "... knowing" is a restrictive clause. Some people never hear of Christ. Some people never hear that the Church claims "[to have been] made necessary by Christ". Some people hear it but don't agree with it.
Despite that, God may be able to save some of those people. Should we have "good hope" of their salvation? Not necessarily, although we shouldn't despair of it, either.
Where I fail to be impressed with the Pope is that he failing to preach clearly that truth contained in the clause beginning with "knowing that".
Or get them both focused in both eyes.
But God created all men in his image.
Since we have divorced sexual activity from procreation by the use of artificial contraception and the abortion culture. it has become considerably more difficult to understand not only why it is better to be married to a person of the same belief system. It also has made it questionable as to whether it is even important if the person you marry is even of the opposite sex. Or even as to why you couldn't marry multiple people of multiple sexes.
To put it bluntly. If the Catholic Church is ,as so many here on FR believe, the Whore of Babylon, than all Catholics will go to Hell.
If it is, as the Church of Rome and it's two dozen aligned Churches agree, only possible to gain access to heaven through adherence to the teachings of the one true Church, than all Protestants, Jews and any other who professes and follows a different religion will most certainly burn in Hell for all eternity.
Take heart, either way we will have lots of company with all the Cafeteria Catholics and probably myself as I am certainly full of sin.
As I always tell the Jehovah’s Witnesses when they come to my door: “I am a Catholic. I can not be saved. Have you seen the rules of the Catholic Church? They publish them in the Catechism. No One can live like that!”
That was a very succinct and ultimately unhelpful and somewhat silly response.
That often happens when one’s own reality is shattered by the facts.
That makes the contrast even more difficult to bear. Can we have our Pope BXVI back now, please?!?
That must have been a sight.
Serra is still alive and active.
Wouldn’t that be great.
Could you elaborate?
I think the Pope appears to have a rather minimalist, charismatic view of Christianity, where it’s all about feeling and all about “me” and how I feel - that, at least, seems to be a big part of his very 1980s style.
That’s all well and good, and I do think we can certainly find common ground with Protestants on many things in the Faith. But again, that’s only with Trinitarian Protestants - and why do I stress that?
Because in a sense there is no such thing as Protestantism, since the only thing these groups have in common is that they reject the Church. Some Protestants are Trinitarian, many are only vaguely so, and many really aren’t at all and are just Unitarians without the New England background; some Protestants accept the traditional Christian moral code, but many if not most have abandoned it and some openly advocate against it; and - well, you get the idea.
What the Pope appears not to understand is that the Church is all about preserving the deposit of Truth. Some Protestant churches preserve more of it than others. But none of them would have preserved it without the Church, the foundation, and I think the Pope has got to remember that he is the one responsible for preserving that foundation.
Engaging in devotional activities together is a good thing and I think we should do more of it. But making it sound as if there is no such thing as truth and nothing really matters is not only wrong but defeats and disappoints Protestants as much as it does Catholics.
“I think I will leave condemning to hell to Jesus.”
As a Christian, we’re supposed to be and act like Jesus as much as possible, except when it comes to judging and condemning, because only He has been granted these powers, which is what He claims.
“Pretty sure that Christians should focus on themselves and not worry about the spiritual status of their neighbors.”
Jesus didn’t come here to focus only on Himself and His followers. He came here to save us all spiritually. And in His Great Commission, he commanded His followers to make disciples of others. So Jesus would disagree on your point.
Jesus made a point of shaming Pharisees. Jesus was no fan of people clucking quietly under the breath at sectarian nonsense. Jesus could see the heart, we cannot.
Jesus was, is, God. We are not.
I will leave being God to God. I, you, we are not qualified.
That does not mean that we cannot choose with whom we associate with. I steer clear of drug and alcohol abusers, wife beaters, thieves, larcenists, and pedophiles. I am also not a big fan of evangelical atheists, global warming fanatics and lesbian feminists.
Don’t care for child abusers, or people who fight dogs. I make all kinds of distinctions as does everybody else who wants to live long and prosper.
"I am the Way, the Truth and the Life. No one comes to the Father but by Me."
As much as to say: I follow Christ; but the Body of Christ? Strictly optional.
Ex Cathedra...Infallible...Right from the lips of God...No Protestants in heaven...No one in heaven except a water dripped Catholic...
This papal bull is just that, Bull!!!!
I can't believe you people fall for this...
I'm so glad that "Sola scriptura" thingy is so bogus / S
Not to put too fine a point on it, but you sound like an atheist. I fell for this madcap teaching that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, fully God and fully man, born of a virgin, crucified, died, buried, risen then ascended to Heaven... I already believe the most insane things.
Believing that only those who enter through the narrow gate abide with God in Heaven isn't really a stretch, that's why I became Catholic in the first place, because I didn't want to spend eternity in hell with the rest of the semi-believers.
Now we have a pope who makes statements that sound like I was fine where I was after all. That confuses and annoys me.
There was a letter or paper by Benedict, I think, in which he referred to protestants as Christian communities. Do you know what I’m talking about? It was, I believe, a few years ago...maybe at the beginning of his papacy (is that the right way to say it?)
Serious question. I’m not know as a Catholic basher.
Humm...so if I reject the papal (a mere mortal man) authority over my life and have embraced the Word of God as truth, have full faith in the shed blood of Christ to redeem me from my sins and have been baptised in his name, I'm a semi believers destined to go to hell...?
Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment. John 7:24
The Greek word for judge is krino and it means to call into question. And the next verse requires that we discern what is correct.
2 Timothy 4:2 preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching.
"The mouth of the righteous speaketh wisdom, and his tongue talketh of judgment." (Psa. 37:30)
I Corinthians 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
follow what scripture says or follow what you say?
Those who follow Christ alone and not some organization ARE the body of Christ.
And then fall for just the opposite!!! Yet they will deny their duplicity while vociferously proclaiming the Catholic Church never changes it's doctrine.
In RE: Semi believers.
It was an off the cuff, made up phrase but yes, before I became Catholic I came to believe that outside of the Catholic Church there was no salvation. Now we have a pope who seems to say otherwise, in a big way. Some of his pronouncements make it seem like he believes that INSIDE the Church there is no salvation.
I wrote “semi” believers because people outside of the Church seem to believe almost everything necessary, but not all of it.
believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved and your house
What do you think Paul left off when he answered the Jailer? Did the Holy Spirit forget to inspire Paul to write the rest of the answer?
however, those who are baptized in these communities are, by Baptism, incorporated in Christ and thus are in a certain communion, albeit imperfect, with the Church.62 Baptism in fact tends per se toward the full development of life in Christ, through the integral profession of faith, the Eucharist, and full communion in the Church.63
âThe Christian faithful are therefore not permitted to imagine that the Church of Christ is nothing more than a collection â divided, yet in some way one â of Churches and ecclesial communities; nor are they free to hold that today the Church of Christ nowhere really exists, and must be considered only as a goal which all Churches and ecclesial communities must strive to reachâ.64 In fact, âthe elements of this already-given Church exist, joined together in their fullness in the Catholic Church and, without this fullness, in the other communitiesâ.65 âTherefore, these separated Churches and communities as such, though we believe they suffer from defects, have by no means been deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Catholic Churchâ.66
The lack of unity among Christians is certainly a wound for the Church; not in the sense that she is deprived of her unity, but âin that it hinders the complete fulfilment of her universality in historyâ.67
I think Francis is saying nothing more than that you don't need to convert already converted people, that the focus is on the unconverted. Proselytism is OK, apparently, but it isn't evangelism.
I think he's right.
That's just my point, believe all of it or don't bother believing any of it.