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What Pope Francis Meant to Say about the Origin of Priestly Celibacy
DavidLGray.INFO ^ | 07/13/2017 | David L. Gray (יוסף דוד)‎

Posted on 07/13/2014 4:52:15 PM PDT by yosephdaviyd

The third installment in Pope Francis’ series of interviews with atheist reporter Eugenio Scalfari took place on Thursday, July 10, 2014, and was published the following Sunday (07/13/14) in La Repubblica daily. Being that Scalfari doesn’t record these interviews on tape, but, rather, re-prints the dialogue based upon his memory of the interview, we can only say what the Pope Francis ‘allegedly’ said in them. One of the things that the Pope allegedly told Scalfari is that he wants to continue these interviews is because he “believes that an interview with a non-believer is mutually stimulating.” Typical of Scalfari’s interviews, Catholic bloggers will be spending the next few weeks talking about what Pope Francis meant to say in this one also. In the instant case, what Pope Francis allegedly said about the origin of priestly celibacy is sure to cause Catholic apologists to beat their head against a steel wall.

For centuries Protestants have been claiming and publishing tracts that say that the Catholic Church didn’t start teaching priestly celibacy until around 1079 A.D., and in refutations Catholic apologist have been pointing to Church documents, as far back as to the the second century, to prove that celibacy for the clergy has always been a discipline of Catholic Church in the West. Now comes along Pope Francis to give Protestant anti-Catholics the proof of what they have been telling Catholics along – that priestly celibacy is a modern innovation. Below is my translated text of that portion of the interview:

(Excerpt) Read more at davidlgray.info ...


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Theology
KEYWORDS: celibacy; popefrancis
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1 posted on 07/13/2014 4:52:15 PM PDT by yosephdaviyd
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To: yosephdaviyd

Sorry to be Sola Scriptura again but:

1 Timothy 3:2
A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

Quote, not my interpretation.


2 posted on 07/13/2014 5:08:55 PM PDT by UnbelievingScumOnTheOtherSide (HELL, NO! BE UNGOVERNABLE! --- ISLAM DELENDA EST)
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To: yosephdaviyd; metmom; Alex Murphy

Once again the Pope’s words need interpretation.


3 posted on 07/13/2014 5:22:25 PM PDT by Gamecock (There is room for all of God's animals. Right next to the mashed potatoes and gravy.)
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To: Gamecock

Yes and it is based on memory so they have more leeway than Lois Lerners hard drive if there’s a flare-up.


4 posted on 07/13/2014 5:35:17 PM PDT by BipolarBob (Obama - The Scandal a Week President.)
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To: yosephdaviyd

I am glad he is at least talking about the pediophile problem in the Catholic Church, 2% or 8000 priests are pediophiles? I had not heard that estimate and despite problems previously reported over the years I had no idea it was that bad.


5 posted on 07/13/2014 5:36:39 PM PDT by plain talk
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To: Gamecock
Once again the Pope’s words need interpretation damage control.

How's that?

6 posted on 07/13/2014 5:43:06 PM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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To: yosephdaviyd

This pope must be the most misinterpreted, mistranslated, misquoted religious leader in all of human history.

Every time I turn around there are threads about what the Pope actually meant/said versus what was written in an article.

I understand this happens from time to time, and that maybe this Pope is doing more interviews with folks that might not ordinarily get the time of day, but maybe the Pope generally means what he says and many of the faithful are just looking for ways to excuse some of his statements.

When it comes to economics at least, I don’t think there can be any question anymore that Pope Francis is very far to the left. Despite all the “well he didn’t really mean that” posts, it is clear that this Pope is essentially a socialist - which is no surprise at all considering he is a South American Jesuit.


7 posted on 07/13/2014 5:46:34 PM PDT by Longbow1969
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To: Longbow1969
I understand this happens from time to time, and that maybe this Pope is doing more interviews with folks that might not ordinarily get the time of day, but maybe the Pope generally means what he says and many of the faithful are just looking for ways to excuse some of his statements.

They essentially have no choice but to support him.

That's what happens when you believe that your magisterium is infallible and the pope is God's vicar on earth.

You're stuck.

They have no recourse if they don't like him or if he's wrong. Speak up and your eternal destiny is on the line. Believing as they do that their priests have the power to forgive or RETAIN a person's sin, or that the church can ex-communicate them, they're in a really tough spot.

8 posted on 07/13/2014 6:18:39 PM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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To: UnbelievingScumOnTheOtherSide
Please read the article.

Is it true that priestly celibacy was established in the tenth century; that is, 900 years after the death of Christ Jesus? Absolutely not! Despite what the Pope said, you are still on very solid ground to defend the Church teaching as always being part of Catholic tradition.

 

Pope Gregory VII: what Pope Francis probably meant to say was that celibacy for the clergy was officially mandated as a discipline in the 12th century by an ecumenical council for the first time.(by Pope Gregory VII)


9 posted on 07/13/2014 6:29:00 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Gamecock

Anybody on your ping list want to comment on this: http://freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/3179796/posts


10 posted on 07/13/2014 6:30:45 PM PDT by goodwithagun (My gun has killed fewer people than Ted Kennedy's car.)
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To: yosephdaviyd; All

Other early statements concerning the disciple of celibacy for the clergy include:

·         Council of Elvira (c. 305)
(Canon 33): “It is decided that marriage be altogether prohibited to bishops, priests, and deacons, or to all clerics placed in the ministry, and that they keep away from their wives and not beget children; whoever does this, shall be deprived of the honor of the clerical office.”

·         Council of Carthage (390)
(Canon 3): “It is fitting that the holy bishops and priests of God as well as the Levites, i.e. those who are in the service of the divine sacraments, observe perfect continence, so that they may obtain in all simplicity what they are asking from God; what the Apostles taught and what antiquity itself observed, let us also endeavour to keep… It pleases us all that bishop, priest and deacon, guardians of purity, abstain from conjugal intercourse with their wives, so that those who serve at the altar may keep a perfect chastity.”

·         St. Epiphanius of Salamis (d. 403)
“Holy Church respects the dignity of the priesthood to such a point that she does not admit to the deaconate, the priesthood or the episcopate, nor even to the subdeaconate, anyone still living in marriage and begetting children. She accepts only him who if married gives up his wife or has lost her by death, especially in those places where the ecclesiastical canons are strictly attended to.”

 


11 posted on 07/13/2014 6:31:45 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: goodwithagun

What ping list would that be?


12 posted on 07/13/2014 6:57:20 PM PDT by Gamecock (There is room for all of God's animals. Right next to the mashed potatoes and gravy.)
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To: Gamecock

The creepy one that brings all those that embarrass me as a Protestant.


13 posted on 07/13/2014 7:06:31 PM PDT by goodwithagun (My gun has killed fewer people than Ted Kennedy's car.)
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To: goodwithagun

Not responsible for your embarrassment.

As far as your link, have you done anything other than post on FR to keep us safe from the Muzzies?


14 posted on 07/13/2014 7:07:56 PM PDT by Gamecock (There is room for all of God's animals. Right next to the mashed potatoes and gravy.)
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To: Gamecock

Oh you are certainly responsible for both my embarrassment and my amusement. Give yourself a pat on the back. Cheers! Now that all three little ones are finally asleep and there’s rain on my steel roof, I’m popping a cap off of a Black and Tan. Mmm. From Americas oldest brewery.


15 posted on 07/13/2014 7:19:07 PM PDT by goodwithagun (My gun has killed fewer people than Ted Kennedy's car.)
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To: goodwithagun

Not gonna answer I see.

Enjoy your Black and Tan.


16 posted on 07/13/2014 7:20:20 PM PDT by Gamecock (There is room for all of God's animals. Right next to the mashed potatoes and gravy.)
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To: Gamecock

Nope. I’ve done as much as you, so your question is meaningless. I will enjoy the brew.


17 posted on 07/13/2014 7:22:53 PM PDT by goodwithagun (My gun has killed fewer people than Ted Kennedy's car.)
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To: goodwithagun

Keep posting on FR, thanks for keeping us safe from the Muzzies.


18 posted on 07/13/2014 7:29:34 PM PDT by Gamecock (There is room for all of God's animals. Right next to the mashed potatoes and gravy.)
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To: yosephdaviyd
Saw a great post about this story in the comment section of Yahoo in which the poster tries to explain that the Catholic church has less of a "pedophile" problem than a homosexual problem.
I have taken the liberty of quoting part of this post:

Don't fall for the media's "spin" that the incidents of Catholic priests abusing minors was part of a "pedophile scandal." Although prosecuted for sexual abuse of minors, the vast majority of the priests in that scandal were not actual pedophiles, but simply homosexuals. Didn't you wonder why almost all the victims were adolescent males, and why almost none of them girls? It's because it was not their young age that was the attractor (very few were less than 13 or 14) but the fact that they were boys. The offenders were motivated not by pedophilia, but by homosexuality.

Of course, I'm sure this makes little difference to the victims, nor should it. But that's not the point. The point is that while the Church (and to some extent society) busy themselves looking under every bush for pedophiles, gay predators end up being overlooked. When society hides its head in the sand, it becomes harder to prevent FUTURE crimes.

19 posted on 07/13/2014 7:31:38 PM PDT by Larry381 (In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act)
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To: Gamecock

Lol! You do the same!


20 posted on 07/13/2014 7:33:50 PM PDT by goodwithagun (My gun has killed fewer people than Ted Kennedy's car.)
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To: Longbow1969

[This pope must be the most misinterpreted, mistranslated, misquoted religious leader in all of human history.]

Possibly so, but for the parts...misinterpreted and mistranslated; I give you the Monk who was translating some of the stone tablets of the church.
He discovered that what they had translated as Celibate the Monk discovered that they had missed seeing the letter “R”. Pandemonium and hand wringing must have ensued.


21 posted on 07/13/2014 7:44:41 PM PDT by Islander2
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To: Salvation
>Please read the article.

Please read the Bible.

1 Timothy 3:2
A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;


Articles, Councils, Bulls and Popes to the contrary, whether 2nd Century or 21st Century, mean squat. As Christ told Peter, "Get thee behind me, Satan."
22 posted on 07/13/2014 7:57:12 PM PDT by UnbelievingScumOnTheOtherSide (HELL, NO! BE UNGOVERNABLE! --- ISLAM DELENDA EST)
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To: UnbelievingScumOnTheOtherSide

He was talking about history. Not the Bible.


23 posted on 07/13/2014 8:03:36 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

Nothing but Catholic heresies that contradict the Bible.

And sending to “All” does not work anymore and not for a very long time.


24 posted on 07/13/2014 8:03:50 PM PDT by UnbelievingScumOnTheOtherSide (HELL, NO! BE UNGOVERNABLE! --- ISLAM DELENDA EST)
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To: Salvation

What is history but traditions of men?


25 posted on 07/13/2014 8:05:52 PM PDT by UnbelievingScumOnTheOtherSide (HELL, NO! BE UNGOVERNABLE! --- ISLAM DELENDA EST)
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To: UnbelievingScumOnTheOtherSide

Sorry that you don’t understand the facts of early Church history....people who knew Christ and people who knew them.


26 posted on 07/13/2014 8:16:13 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: metmom
They essentially have no choice but to support him.

That's what happens when you believe that your magisterium is infallible and the pope is God's vicar on earth.

I think you will find simply by reading the posts of Catholics here on FR that many feel no such compulsion as you imply. They are quite comfortable pointing out when he says something ridiculous, and I am confident it causes no trouble with their faith. That is because there is nothing in the Catholic faith which maintains that any pope is necessarily right in anything he says, outside of a very tiny sliver of very specific teachings. Consider this. In the time since Vatican I and its specific exposition of Papal Infallibility, i.e. about 144 years, there have been a grand total of two infallible statements from popes. Two. That amounts to some several sentences out of the what, millions, that popes have written or spoken in that time. So, no, there is essentially no requirement to support any erroneous papal statements whatsoever.

27 posted on 07/13/2014 8:27:12 PM PDT by cothrige
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To: UnbelievingScumOnTheOtherSide

This is not heresy. I will pray for you.


28 posted on 07/13/2014 8:28:40 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

Salvation:

You are indeed correct, Celibacy is only a discipline and has been taught, in different degrees since the 4th century, at various councils and was clearly taught as a normative discipline at the Council of Chalcedon

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cclergy/documents/rc_con_cclergy_doc_01011993_chisto_en.html

Here is an article from a Reformed cite ccel which is entirely consistent with the Catholic article.

http://www.ccel.org/s/schaff/encyc/encyc02/htm/iv.vi.ccxx.htm

In summary, celibacy has always been a discipline so no Council or Pope can make it dogma, it is not. What you find is the level of teaching on celibacy and to what degree did Pope’s stress it. It is a fact that one Pope as late as the 6th century was married and his son would succeed him as Pope. The last married Pope was Hadrian in the 9th century. So what the Pope Francis said is true in that it was in the 11th century that the Church finally made celibacy the norm for all clergy in the West, but even now, with Anglicans becoming Catholic and ordained as Married priest, we again have a lax in the discipline of celibacy.

Nothing new, northing controversial here except for a certain type of FR protestant here wanting to make something out it so they can entertain themselves, One would think on Sunday, most would be watching their preacher handle snakes and hold their hands in the air and grasp talking in tongues.


29 posted on 07/13/2014 8:32:50 PM PDT by CTrent1564
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To: cothrige
I think you will find simply by reading the posts of Catholics here on FR that many feel no such compulsion as you imply. They are quite comfortable pointing out when he says something ridiculous, and I am confident it causes no trouble with their faith. That is because there is nothing in the Catholic faith which maintains that any pope is necessarily right in anything he says, outside of a very tiny sliver of very specific teachings.

Well, it's easy when it's the internet and anonymous.

Can Catholics vote out a bad pope? Can they do ANYTHING about a bad pope?

I know of non-Catholic denominations where the pastor started teaching stuff that was off base and he was GONE.

Not an option for Catholics.....

30 posted on 07/13/2014 8:37:28 PM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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To: CTrent1564
Nothing new, northing controversial here except for a certain type of FR protestant here wanting to make something out it so they can entertain themselves, One would think on Sunday, most would be watching their preacher handle snakes and hold their hands in the air and grasp talking in tongues.

What's no big deal to you is sacrilege to another Catholic.

Seems to me that the non-Catholics are on the same page about a married priesthood, that is that they see no need for it, there is no Scriptural support for it, and that it's only hurting the Catholic church by drastically cutting into the pool of men who could be priests.

It's the Catholics who have the division over it. They simply can't agree with their take on how, when, where, why, and by whom, the whole priestly celibacy thing came into being.

We see it as a useless convention at best.

With Catholics bemoaning the dearth of priests, the easiest solution which has no moral issues attached to it is to allow a married priesthood.

But nooooooooooo.......

Can't go against *sacred tradition* or whatever they're using to justify it.

You're shooting yourselves in your own collective foot.

The whole idea won't be accepted until it comes from a Catholic source.

31 posted on 07/13/2014 8:45:07 PM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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To: CTrent1564

>One would think on Sunday, most would be watching their preacher handle snakes and hold their hands in the air and grasp talking in tongues.

Like the Apostles? Your jest seems to border on blasphemy.


32 posted on 07/13/2014 8:46:53 PM PDT by UnbelievingScumOnTheOtherSide (HELL, NO! BE UNGOVERNABLE! --- ISLAM DELENDA EST)
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To: metmom
Seems to me that the non-Catholics are on the same page about a married priesthood, that is that they see no need for it, there is no Scriptural support for it, and that it's only hurting the Catholic church by drastically cutting into the pool of men who could be priests.

Interesting how the personal preference of a protestant in the need vs. not need (i.e, useless) aspect of the question precedes scriptural support. I declare that is not needed, therefore I will find scriptural warrant for my stated policy position.

33 posted on 07/13/2014 8:49:49 PM PDT by JPX2011
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To: Salvation

>Sorry that you don’t understand the facts of early Church history....people who knew Christ and people who knew them.

I know the Bible. What have you got?


34 posted on 07/13/2014 8:52:02 PM PDT by UnbelievingScumOnTheOtherSide (HELL, NO! BE UNGOVERNABLE! --- ISLAM DELENDA EST)
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To: UnbelievingScumOnTheOtherSide

I have the Bible too. But I also have Holy Tradition. You don’t seem to have that, or am I misreading your lack of knowledge?


35 posted on 07/13/2014 8:54:52 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: metmom
Can Catholics vote out a bad pope? Can they do ANYTHING about a bad pope?

Huh? I don't follow. What does that have to do with having to support the statements of popes when they are wrong?

I know of non-Catholic denominations where the pastor started teaching stuff that was off base and he was GONE.

Not an option for Catholics.....

No, not an option for us, but neither does it mean what you said above. There is no compulsion on any Catholic to defend erroneous statements from popes. It just isn't so. Our faith doesn't include that kind of cult of personality.

Oh, and by the way, this from above is also way off base:

Speak up and your eternal destiny is on the line. Believing as they do that their priests have the power to forgive or RETAIN a person's sin, or that the church can ex-communicate them, they're in a really tough spot.

Where do you even come up with that? Do you think that priests have to call to Rome and ask the pope personally whether they can give absolution in confession because the penitent had criticised the pope's comments in an interview? And how would any priest, who doesn't see your face or usually know who you are in confession even know you didn't agree with a comment from the pope? What kind of clerical network do you think is in place, and what do you think happens in confession? Just to clarify for you there is actually no oath that we believe every statement made by the pope, even in private or in off the cuff interviews, is straight from God. You list your sins by type and number and he prays for you and absolves you. Period. No hotlines to Rome, and no clerical spy rings to monitor whether people are properly supporting the popes interview comments.

36 posted on 07/13/2014 8:57:07 PM PDT by cothrige
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To: Salvation

I have no tradition that contradicts the Bible, which I’ve quoted several times and you have ignored. The Pharisees were exactly the same way, uphold the tradition and ignore the scripture.

If there is a lack of knowledge, it is your inability to explain the reason why scripture is to be set aside.


37 posted on 07/13/2014 9:07:07 PM PDT by UnbelievingScumOnTheOtherSide (HELL, NO! BE UNGOVERNABLE! --- ISLAM DELENDA EST)
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To: UnbelievingScumOnTheOtherSide

Catholic tradition does not contradict the Bible. How did people learn about Christ when there was no Bible in his day? By Holy Tradition — people talking with one another face to face.

I don’t see why non-Catholics can’t understand that.

As I said above — from the people who knew Jesus....and then the people who knew those who knew Jesus. And so it continued because there was no written word until 50 AD.


38 posted on 07/13/2014 9:10:17 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/3179804/posts?page=38#38
This refers to the Gospels. Actually the first account of the Eucharist is in Paul.


39 posted on 07/13/2014 9:11:25 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation; UnbelievingScumOnTheOtherSide; metmom; boatbums
As I said above — from the people who knew Jesus....and then the people who knew those who knew Jesus. And so it continued because there was no written word until 50 AD.

To the contrary, there were written words of God on earth in Hebrew for thousands of years.

Jesus said all three times in response to Satan's temptations "it is written."

The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever. - Psalms 12:6-7

To God be the glory, not man, never man.
40 posted on 07/13/2014 9:18:24 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl

I was speaking of the New Testament and I corrected myself here.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/3179804/posts?page=39#39

Yes, the words of the Old Testament were well studied by Jesus Christ, true man and true God.

You are giving Christ the glory, aren’t you? In addition to the Old Testament writers?


41 posted on 07/13/2014 9:22:21 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

>Catholic tradition does not contradict the Bible.

1 Timothy 3:2
A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

Council of Elvira (c. 305)
(Canon 33): “It is decided that marriage be altogether prohibited to bishops, priests, and deacons, or to all clerics placed in the ministry...”

The only things more obvious than the contradiction between the above scripture and tradition is that you have no idea how to reconcile them, that you aren’t going to try and that you accept the traditions of men over the word of God.


42 posted on 07/13/2014 9:25:48 PM PDT by UnbelievingScumOnTheOtherSide (HELL, NO! BE UNGOVERNABLE! --- ISLAM DELENDA EST)
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To: UnbelievingScumOnTheOtherSide

No contradictions, additional information by word of mouth.

Holy Tradition.


43 posted on 07/13/2014 9:28:06 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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Comment #44 Removed by Moderator

To: Salvation; UnbelievingScumOnTheOtherSide; metmom; boatbums
You are giving Christ the glory, aren’t you? In addition to the Old Testament writers?

Christ is not in addition to the Old Testament writers, He is the author and finisher of our faith.

Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. - Hebrews 12:2

His Name is called The Word of God:

And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. - Revelation 19:13

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. - John 1:1-3


45 posted on 07/13/2014 9:29:07 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Larry381

I have said it till I was blue in the face. The Catholic Church does not have a pedophile problem, they have a homosexual priest problem. 90% of the sex cases against priests are homosexual priests having sex with young teenager boys, who by the way are not pedophiles.

By the way the homosexual clergy problem affects all denominations. The reason? The vast majority of homosexuals are predators. They are always on the prowl for young teenage boys.


46 posted on 07/13/2014 9:33:00 PM PDT by NKP_Vet
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To: Salvation

>No contradictions, additional information by word of mouth. Holy Tradition.

And what information would it be that bears on this point that I’m accused of being ignorant of?


47 posted on 07/13/2014 9:35:41 PM PDT by UnbelievingScumOnTheOtherSide (HELL, NO! BE UNGOVERNABLE! --- ISLAM DELENDA EST)
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To: metmom

“With Catholics bemoaning the dearth of priests, the easiest solution which has no moral issues attached to it is to allow a married priesthood”.

Celibacy has absolutely nothing to do with anything. Do not allow homosexual men in the seminaries and the sex abuse problem is solved. And by the way most protestant clergy that are involved in sex abuse are homosexuals. Why don’t you start commenting on all the sex abuse cases involving protestant pastors and let Catholics worry about the Catholic Church?


48 posted on 07/13/2014 9:41:02 PM PDT by NKP_Vet
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To: NKP_Vet
If homosexuals were routed out of the priesthood, we'd probably have a lot more straight men headed in. No straight man, normally, wants to hang with gay men. Culturally, they very little in common as well as having a disgust of pedophilia... Probably get a lot more choir masters in the protestants churches if they let straight guys to do the job. Protestants let THAT become a fag industry.
49 posted on 07/14/2014 3:25:38 AM PDT by miss marmelstein (Richard Lives Yet!)
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To: Salvation

I agree with this. Granted, a pope should have his Church history correct, but this sort of blunder doesn’t concern me.


50 posted on 07/14/2014 4:19:05 AM PDT by piusv
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