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"Jesus Was Not a “Bible Believer” let Alone an Evangelical" (F-word warning)
Frank Schaeffer/Patheos ^ | 7/22/14 | Frank Schaeffer

Posted on 07/22/2014 2:22:53 PM PDT by Faith Presses On

Jesus certainly was not a “Bible believer,” as we use that term in the post Billy Graham era of American fundamentalist religiosity that’s used as a trade-marked product to sell religion. Jesus didn’t take the Jewish scriptures at face value. In fundamentalist terms, Jesus was a rule-breaking relativist who wasn’t even “saved,” according to evangelical standards. Evangelicals insist that you have to believe very specific interpretations of the Bible to be saved. Jesus didn’t. He undercut the scriptures.

A leper came to Jesus and said, “Lord, if you choose, you can make me clean.” If Jesus had been a good religious Jew, he would have said, “Be healed,” and just walked away. Instead, he stretched out his hand and touched the leper, saying, “I do choose. Be made clean,” even though he was breaking the specific rules of Leviticus. Two chapters teach that anyone touching a person with leprosy is contaminated.

The stories about Jesus that survived the bigots, opportunists and delusional fanatics who wrote the New Testament contain powerful and enlightened truths that would someday prove the undoing of the Church built in his name. Like a futurist vindicated by events as yet undreamed, Jesus’ message of love was far more powerful than the magical thinking of the writers of the book he’s trapped in. In Jesus’ day the institutions of religion, state, misogyny and myth were so deeply ingrained that the ultimate dangerousness of his life example could not be imagined. For example his feminism, probably viewed as an eccentricity in his day, would prove transformational.

Jesus believed in God rather than in a book about God. The message of Jesus’ life is an intervention in and an acceleration of the evolution of empathy...

(Excerpt) Read more at patheos.com ...


TOPICS: General Discusssion
KEYWORDS: frankschaeffer; religiousleft
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1 posted on 07/22/2014 2:22:53 PM PDT by Faith Presses On
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To: Faith Presses On

And this is Francis Schaeffer’s son! He must be rolling over in his grave ... but, he happens to be up in Heaven now.


2 posted on 07/22/2014 2:26:39 PM PDT by Star Traveler (Remember to keep the Messiah of Israel in the One-World Government that we look forward to coming)
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To: Faith Presses On

Seems to me that I read somewhere about Jesus being called “The Word”


3 posted on 07/22/2014 2:26:46 PM PDT by mountainlion (Live well for those that did not make it back.)
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To: Faith Presses On
Another religion-hater telling people of faith what their religion demands of them.
4 posted on 07/22/2014 2:28:21 PM PDT by E. Pluribus Unum ("The man who damns money obtained it dishonorably; the man who respects it earned it." --Ayn Rand)
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To: Faith Presses On

I’m glad Francis isn’t around to see Franky embarrass himself. Very sad.


5 posted on 07/22/2014 2:28:50 PM PDT by .45 Long Colt
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To: Faith Presses On

Franky knows the Bible better than this.

17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 5:17-20 NIV


6 posted on 07/22/2014 2:29:45 PM PDT by Waryone
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To: Faith Presses On

What happened to Frankie?

I enjoyed a couple books of his that I read more than 20 years ago now.

One was called Addicted to Mediocrity. I don’t remember the name fo the other.

He almost is making good points or a good argument here, but is so stuck in reactionary mode, he can’t.


7 posted on 07/22/2014 2:30:00 PM PDT by ifinnegan
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To: Faith Presses On

Frankie, you’d better read your Dad’s writings again, read the Scriptures again, and reconsider this matter pronto. It’s a serious error you’ve fallen into.


8 posted on 07/22/2014 2:30:09 PM PDT by Resettozero
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To: Faith Presses On

Wow!

What a pantload of middle-school drivel.


9 posted on 07/22/2014 2:31:13 PM PDT by Quality_Not_Quantity (Liars use facts when the truth doesn't suit their purposes.)
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To: Faith Presses On

This guy obviously has no idea what scripture teaches.


10 posted on 07/22/2014 2:32:46 PM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ)
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To: E. Pluribus Unum
Another religion-hater telling people of faith what their religion demands of them.

Amen.

11 posted on 07/22/2014 2:33:30 PM PDT by cloudmountain
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To: mountainlion

He also said,

“Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.” (Matthew 5:17-18)

The Law of Moses, the Law of Messiah and the place of the Law after the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ are complex subjects. On the other hand, Frankie is simplistic.


12 posted on 07/22/2014 2:33:42 PM PDT by Cecily
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To: Quality_Not_Quantity
What a pantload of middle-school drivel.

Lol. I'd never heard that before.
I like it.

13 posted on 07/22/2014 2:34:41 PM PDT by cloudmountain
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To: Faith Presses On

As I understand it the Bible as we know it today was assembled in the centuries following the death of Jesus. There was a lengthy editing and approval process. There would have been no bible at the time Jesus lived. If I recall he was accepted as the savior by the Catholic church some 30 years after his death. (Donning fireproof PPE. Ducking into hole and pulling dirt in after.)


14 posted on 07/22/2014 2:38:30 PM PDT by Gen.Blather
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To: mountainlion

From the Greek versions of the new testament Jesus is “logos-sarx” or “the word of God become flesh”.

CC


15 posted on 07/22/2014 2:41:30 PM PDT by Celtic Conservative (tease not the dragon for thou art crunchy when roasted and taste good with ketchup)
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To: Waryone

Hmmmm ..?? Wasn’t every Jewish male required to know the Torah ..??

Anybody know ..??


16 posted on 07/22/2014 2:43:31 PM PDT by CyberAnt (True the Vote: " MY AMERICA, ... I'm terrified it's slipping away.")
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To: Faith Presses On

Can you believe this Jesus was not a Bible Believer? Who wrote the Bible the inspired Word of God, or just some drug induced lunatics. So many years later a bunch of people got together and rid the bible of extra writings - the Apocophrya and other intertestamental writings. So franky Schaeffer, believes that Jesus did not believe in the Bible. Franky Jesus does not believe in you Franky.


17 posted on 07/22/2014 2:44:02 PM PDT by hondact200 (Candor dat viribos alas (sincerity gives wings to strength) and Nil desperandum (never despair))
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To: Faith Presses On

“Jesus was a rule-breaking relativist who wasn’t even ‘saved’,”

Moron, he is God and the Son and perfect he doesn’t need saving.


18 posted on 07/22/2014 2:44:04 PM PDT by Resolute Conservative
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To: Gen.Blather

“There would have been no bible at the time Jesus lived. “

You can’t possibly be serious, because no one who knows anything about the Bible would make such and ignorant statement.

Have you even read the Bible, Old Testament or New, ever???

How many times did Jesus quote from the Old Testament? Do you recall? What scriptures did he quote when tempted by Stan himself?

I will never understand how people like this author pull “facts” out of their rear ends, which are not facts at all, and pretend to be educated. It is laughable.

Have you ever heard of “Moses”? Have you ever heard of the Psalms, written by King David? Have you ever heard of the book of Job? All written before Jesus was born.

Just wow.


19 posted on 07/22/2014 2:46:33 PM PDT by Do Not Make Fun Of His Ears ("There's always free cheese in a mousetrap." - Marine Col. Peter Martinow)
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To: Gen.Blather

Ouch!

None of the text of the “Old Testament” was edited but was copped carefully. Old texts were scrolls. If a scribe made a mistake he was beaten and the scroll destroyed in a ritual.


20 posted on 07/22/2014 2:47:01 PM PDT by mountainlion (Live well for those that did not make it back.)
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To: Faith Presses On
Jesus believed in God rather than in a book about God.

And we know about God exactly how then?

The message of Jesus’ life is an intervention in and an acceleration of the evolution of empathy...

Then by that reasoning, so is Jesus.

Just goes to show where deception can land you.

21 posted on 07/22/2014 2:48:29 PM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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To: Do Not Make Fun Of His Ears

Lots of typos, but ypou get my drift. If you’re gonna stake your eternity on some cock-sure dismissal of the Bible, based on the flimsy evidence you’ve presented....good luck with that.


22 posted on 07/22/2014 2:49:04 PM PDT by Do Not Make Fun Of His Ears ("There's always free cheese in a mousetrap." - Marine Col. Peter Martinow)
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To: mountainlion

Isn’t it amazing how frothingly infuriated Satan’s minions get about The Word of God...

Even to the point of trying to co-opt Jesus against it.


23 posted on 07/22/2014 2:51:41 PM PDT by MrB (The difference between a Humanist and a Satanist - the latter admits whom he's working for)
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To: Do Not Make Fun Of His Ears

Lots of typos, but you get my drift.


24 posted on 07/22/2014 2:53:57 PM PDT by Do Not Make Fun Of His Ears ("There's always free cheese in a mousetrap." - Marine Col. Peter Martinow)
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To: MrB

Is the writer form Colorado? It sounds like he is on drugs.


25 posted on 07/22/2014 2:54:01 PM PDT by mountainlion (Live well for those that did not make it back.)
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To: ifinnegan
What happened to Frankie? I enjoyed a couple books of his that I read more than 20 years ago now. One was called Addicted to Mediocrity. I don’t remember the name fo the other. He almost is making good points or a good argument here, but is so stuck in reactionary mode, he can’t.

Frank(y) went off the deep end IMO when his "evangelical filmmaker" career failed in 1988/89, costing his financial backers millions. Out of the several commercial vehicles he directed, the only "evangelical" film he managed to make was the apocalypic anarchy tale Wired To Kill. I suspect that Franky took his backers' wrath as a lack of forgiveness. (You want irony? He authored the book Addicted to Mediocrity, before he directed Wired To Kill.) I strongly suspect he converted to Orthodoxy as a form of protest against the very Evangelicals whose money he lost in his filmmaking career.

Inbetween then and now, he promoted the Greek Orthodox Church and it's then-Archbishop Spyridon. When the latter was sent packing by the Greek Orthodox Church, Schaeffer lost his soapbox. But promoting Orthodoxy doesn't pay the bills quite like trashing his father's legacy and shilling for liberals and Democrats. Franky always liked attention.

With such a son, who needs enemies? To be sure, Frank tries to nuance the conclusion: "I once thought Dad's ability to present two very different faces to the world—one to his family and one to the public—was gross hypocrisy. I think very differently now. I believe Dad was a very brave man," one who simply had to "carry on"—the victim, presumably, of his own unresolved but inadmissible inner tensions. Yet there is no way round it. Francis Schaeffer, in his son's portrait, lacked intellectual integrity. There was a lie at the very heart of the work of L'Abri, and the thousands of people who over the decades came to L'Abri and came to faith or deepened in faith, were obviously conned too.

I challenge this central charge of Frank's with everything in me. I and many of my closest friends, who knew the Schaeffers well, are certain beyond a shadow of doubt that they would challenge it too. Defenders of truth to others, Francis and Edith Schaeffer were people of truth themselves.

For six years I was as close to Frank as anyone outside his own family, and probably closer than many in his family. I was his best man at his wedding. Life has taken us in different directions over the past thirty years, but I counted him my dear friend and went through many of the escapades he recounts and many more that would not bear rehearsing in print. It pains me to say, then, that his portrait is cruel, distorted, and self-serving, but I cannot let it pass unchallenged without a strong insistence on a different way of seeing the story. There is all the difference in the world between flaws and hypocrisy. Francis and Edith Schaeffer were lions for truth. No one could be further from con artists, even unwitting con artists, than the Francis and Edith Schaeffer I knew, lived with, and loved....

- Os Guinness, "Fathers and Sons", a review of Frank Schaeffer's book Crazy for God.


26 posted on 07/22/2014 2:55:43 PM PDT by Alex Murphy ("the defacto Leader of the FR Calvinist Protestant Brigades")
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To: Do Not Make Fun Of His Ears; Gen.Blather

I think you’re being a little too hard on the General.

He is quite correct that the final canon of the Bible was not fully in place when Jesus walked the earth.

The OT was in process of canonization, with some sections of the present fully accepted as such, and possibly others, notably the “Writings,” not yet promoted to canonical status.

The NT of course has not yet been written when Jesus was around. There was a generally accepted NT canon by early 200s, but various groups were still arguing over the issue of which books to include and exclude a LOT later.

For instance, Luther tried to get four books of the canon removed from his followers’ Bibles. It didn’t take.

The Council of Trent accepted several books of the OT as canonical that most Protestants consider apocryphal.


27 posted on 07/22/2014 2:57:11 PM PDT by Sherman Logan (Perception wins all the battles. Reality wins all the wars.)
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To: Faith Presses On
Evangelicals insist that you have to believe very specific interpretations of the Bible to be saved.

uhhhhhhhh, NO.

28 posted on 07/22/2014 2:58:13 PM PDT by Drango (A liberal's compassion is limited only by the size of someone else's wallet.)
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To: mountainlion

that’s the possession talking...


29 posted on 07/22/2014 3:00:38 PM PDT by MrB (The difference between a Humanist and a Satanist - the latter admits whom he's working for)
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ph


30 posted on 07/22/2014 3:10:06 PM PDT by xone
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To: Star Traveler

I had the great blessing of spending a few months in the Swiss Alps with Edith & Francis Schaeffer. He would walk with me in the morning as I told him everything on my mind and on my heart. His questions and answers where always from Torah as I am a Jew. In short order he took me in a circle to come back to understand who Yeshua is. A few months later as I stood at the Wailing Wall and prayed I thank G_D for leading me to this wonderful man of G_D.


31 posted on 07/22/2014 3:17:33 PM PDT by lostboy61 (Lock and Load and stand your ground!.)
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To: lostboy61

That was a wonderful blessing!


32 posted on 07/22/2014 3:18:31 PM PDT by Star Traveler (Remember to keep the Messiah of Israel in the One-World Government that we look forward to coming)
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To: Do Not Make Fun Of His Ears; Gen.Blather

It all fits Roman Catholic indoctrination.


33 posted on 07/22/2014 3:21:57 PM PDT by Gamecock (There is room for all of God's animals. Right next to the mashed potatoes and gravy.)
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To: Faith Presses On

Really just a pretty stupid article all the way around.


34 posted on 07/22/2014 3:23:02 PM PDT by kjam22 (my music video "If My People" at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74b20RjILy4)
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To: Faith Presses On

The stories about Jesus that survived the bigots, opportunists and delusional fanatics who wrote the New Testament.


He bases his arguments on what Jesus did in the N.T But said the N.T was wrote by bigots and fanatics, sounds like he is on a trip of some kind.


35 posted on 07/22/2014 3:26:50 PM PDT by ravenwolf
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To: E. Pluribus Unum

He sounds like a religious nut who hates Christians.


36 posted on 07/22/2014 3:29:51 PM PDT by ravenwolf
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To: Faith Presses On

The author is relying on words written by delusional fanatics to make his judgment about who Jesus was and what he believed?

Quite strange belief system.


37 posted on 07/22/2014 3:33:10 PM PDT by Raycpa
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To: lostboy61

Fascinating. Thank you for sharing your experience.


38 posted on 07/22/2014 3:36:59 PM PDT by Tax-chick (No power in the 'verse can stop me.)
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To: E. Pluribus Unum

His dad was a great man of faith...this fellow has wandered from that legacy.


39 posted on 07/22/2014 3:41:05 PM PDT by SoFloFreeper
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To: Faith Presses On
The stories about Jesus that survived the bigots, opportunists and delusional fanatics who wrote the New Testament contain powerful and enlightened truths that would someday prove the undoing of the Church built in his name....

He then gives stories about Jesus from the....New Testament....written by men he calls bigots.

The bigot is you, Frank. May your soul be awakened.

40 posted on 07/22/2014 3:45:51 PM PDT by SoFloFreeper
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To: Quality_Not_Quantity

You realize, of course, you’ve seriously maligned middle-school drivel.


41 posted on 07/22/2014 3:49:05 PM PDT by tbpiper
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To: Star Traveler

Indeed. If it weren’t for his wonderful, Bible-believing Christian father, no one would have the slightest clue who little Franky is.


42 posted on 07/22/2014 3:51:20 PM PDT by ReformationFan
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To: Do Not Make Fun Of His Ears

Indeed. And Franky Schaeffer knows this but I think he’s desperately trying to convince himself otherwise.


43 posted on 07/22/2014 3:53:04 PM PDT by ReformationFan
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To: Gen.Blather

General, I will not be flaming you, but you have asked some good questions that I am sure many average people might ask who are not very familiar with the Bible.

First, the Bible is not one book, but a collection of 66 books written over a 2000 year time frame.

The Bible Jesus had in the First century was the Torah, the Psalms, wisdom literature (Proverbs, Ecclesiasties, Job), history (Judges, Samuel, Chronicles, Kings, Esther, etc.), and the Prophets (Daniel, Isaiah, Jerimiah, etc.). I’ve probably missed some, but these are the books that are typically called by Christians, the Old Testament. These books were pretty well agreed upon by the Jews, by the 2nd century BC - that is about 200 years before Jesus’ day- to be the inspired, canonical Word of God. They didn’t call it the “Bible” as we do today, but usually it was called, “the Law, Psalms, and the Prophets”.

After Jesus’ death, burial, resurrection, and ascension into heaven is when what would become the books of the New Testament were written. The books of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John were biographical presentations of Jesus - not biographies in the same sense as we think of, but accounts from eye-witnesses of the life and ministry of Jesus. Only Matthew’s and Luke’s account mention the events of Jesus’ birth. Matthew and John were two of the original 12 Disciples, Mark (John Mark) was an early Christian convert who was a contemporary of the 12 Disciples, as was Luke (a medical doctor).

All the other books in the New Testament (except for Revelation), were letters written by various Apostles (the original 12 Disciples) except for Paul, who is often called the 13th Apostle, who wrote 13 books/letters of the 27 New Testament books. These books were letters written by the Apostles to specific churches to address specific problems or issues they were facing at the time. Often the letters were also intended to be passed on from church to church and read to all the Believers in attendance.

The Gospel accounts (Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John) were written within the first 50 years after the death and resurrection of Jesus. The other books of the New Testament were written within nearly the same time frame, The “canon”, that is the books that are considered the inspired Word of God was settled upon by most of the Christian world, by the
2nd/3rd centuries.

All the early Christians believed Jesus to be God’s Son, the promised Messiah, God in human form, and the only source of salvation for mankind from the consequences of sin, death, and Hell. They believed this somewhat before and soon after the resurrection and ascension of Jesus. It was not 30 years later.

I hope this clears up some of your questions for you. There are a myriad of Christian books and documents from Church history that go over the development of the Biblical Canon. If you are interested, I’m sure you can find all the information you could ever want on this subject.


44 posted on 07/22/2014 3:53:14 PM PDT by rusty schucklefurd
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To: Quality_Not_Quantity

Good description.


45 posted on 07/22/2014 3:58:11 PM PDT by Sans-Culotte (Psalm 14:1 ~ The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.”)
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To: rusty schucklefurd

Thank you. I have saved your response.


46 posted on 07/22/2014 3:58:25 PM PDT by Gen.Blather
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To: Faith Presses On

The sad thing is that some people will believe it.


47 posted on 07/22/2014 4:13:21 PM PDT by Karl Spooner
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To: Star Traveler

And you know this how?

God the Father is the only one who knows who is in heaven, hell or purgatory.


48 posted on 07/22/2014 4:23:12 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

Because the Bible says ... “... that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.”

Romans 10:9-10

And since he said he believed in his heart that God raised Jesus Christ from the dead and confessed with his mouth - both of which I heard him testify to ... then he is saved, according to the Scriptures.


49 posted on 07/22/2014 4:28:32 PM PDT by Star Traveler (Remember to keep the Messiah of Israel in the One-World Government that we look forward to coming)
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To: Alex Murphy

Thanks for that response.


50 posted on 07/22/2014 4:29:49 PM PDT by ifinnegan
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