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Evangelicals Hail Pope's Caserta Visit and Apologise to Catholics
Vatican Radio ^ | 7/30/14

Posted on 07/30/2014 6:20:37 AM PDT by marshmallow

The head of the World Evangelical Alliance has hailed Pope Francis’ meeting with Pentecostals in Caserta and apologised for discrimination of Catholics by Evangelicals in the past. After an encounter with the Catholic community in the southern Italian city on Saturday, the Pope returned to Caserta on Monday where he was welcomed by over 200 members of the Pentecostal Church of Reconciliation.

Commenting on the impact of that historic meeting, the Secretary General of the World Evangelical Alliance, Rev. Dr. Geoff Tunnicliffe said while the official conversations between Catholics and Evangelicals are an essential part of the ecumenical journey, the building up of trust and friendship leads to a deepening of those theological dialogues. He also talked about the importance of a meeting that he and other Christian leaders had in June with Pope Francis in the Vatican and about the legacy of Evangelical leader Tony Palmer who died ten days ago…..

(Excerpt) Read more at en.radiovaticana.va ...


TOPICS: Catholic; Charismatic Christian; Ecumenism; Evangelical Christian
KEYWORDS:
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1 posted on 07/30/2014 6:20:37 AM PDT by marshmallow
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To: Gamecock; metmom
Commenting on the impact of that historic meeting, the Secretary General of the World Evangelical Alliance, Rev. Dr. Geoff Tunnicliffe said while the official conversations between Catholics and Evangelicals are an essential part of the ecumenical journey, the building up of trust and friendship leads to a deepening of those theological dialogues. He also talked about the importance of a meeting that he and other Christian leaders had in June with Pope Francis in the Vatican and about the legacy of Evangelical leader Tony Palmer who died ten days ago…..

Catholics tell us that Protestants are 52,000+ organizations ("with more popping up every day"), holding to 52,000 different interpretations of the Bible because we can't get along with each other, and yet we Protestants somehow managed to get together under one leader and hailed their pope.

Meanwhile, these same Catholics can't seem to get together to hail this pope themselves.

I'll be in the corner. Laughing.

2 posted on 07/30/2014 6:30:32 AM PDT by Alex Murphy ("the defacto Leader of the FR Calvinist Protestant Brigades")
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To: Alex Murphy

“Catholics tell us that Protestants are 52,000+ organizations...”

Protestants have said much the same thing - about Protestant sects. And the number is clearly much larger than 52,000.

“I’ll be in the corner. Laughing.”

And we’ll be laughing too. Mostly at you.


3 posted on 07/30/2014 6:34:26 AM PDT by vladimir998
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To: Alex Murphy
yet we Protestants somehow managed to get together under one leader and hailed their pope

In what sense are you "under" Geoff Tunnicliffe, and exactly how do you join him in "hailing" the pope? Be specific.

these same Catholics can't seem to get together to hail this pope themselves

What does that mean? "Catholics" who don't recognize Francis as Pope are outside the church. Those who are aren't under some magical obligation to think everything he does or says is equally good. Popes sometimes make bad decisions or say dumb things. Admitting that isn't disunity, just sanity.

4 posted on 07/30/2014 6:55:52 AM PDT by Campion
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To: marshmallow

This laughable alliance does not represent me or millions of other Evangelicals. We all believe one thing: Jesus Christ is Lord. If Catholics would stop their heretical Mary worship, then I would consider calling them Christians.


5 posted on 07/30/2014 7:47:08 AM PDT by Dr. Thorne ("Don't be afraid. Just believe." - Mark 5:36)
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To: vladimir998

“Catholics tell us that Protestants are 52,000+ organizations...”

Protestants have said much the same thing - about Protestant sects. And the number is clearly much larger than 52,000.

“I’ll be in the corner. Laughing.”

And we’ll be laughing too. Mostly at you.

We step into eternity, and God’s presence one by one.
If we hear,” Depart...I never knew you...” No one will be laughing.
A believer has the indwelling Holy Spirit to give him the wisdom to understand God’s Word. Doesn’t matter if the whole world is against him.
“It isn’t what I don’t understand in the Bible that troubles me, it’s those portions that I do understand.”
Such as, “The wages of sin is death.”


6 posted on 07/30/2014 7:56:41 AM PDT by WestwardHo
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To: marshmallow
The head of the World Evangelical Alliance has ....apologised for discrimination of Catholics by Evangelicals in the past.

So is the pope going to 'unpronounce' the anathemas against us?

7 posted on 07/30/2014 8:07:02 AM PDT by tbpiper
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To: Dr. Thorne
If Catholics would stop their heretical Mary worship, then I would consider calling them Christians.

Since Catholics DO NOT WORSHIP MARY there is nothing to stop and you are free to call us Christians.

8 posted on 07/30/2014 8:31:34 AM PDT by Petrosius
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To: tbpiper
So is the pope going to 'unpronounce' the anathemas against us?

To end discrimination in society is not the same as saying that one's error puts one outside the Church.

Will you and your fellow Protestants stop calling Catholics heretics and, for some, not even recognizing us as Christians?

9 posted on 07/30/2014 8:34:51 AM PDT by Petrosius
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To: marshmallow

How about Pope Francis speaking out loudly and clearly against the slaughter of Christians by Muslims in Iraq, Syria, Africa and elsewhere. How about him loudly and clearly calling on all Muslim leaders, both religious and political, to do the same thing. When the Pope starts doing that day after day, I will begin to have some respect for him.


10 posted on 07/30/2014 8:43:17 AM PDT by CdMGuy
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To: Petrosius
If Catholics would stop their heretical Mary worship, then I would consider calling them Christians.

Since Catholics DO NOT WORSHIP MARY there is nothing to stop and you are free to call us Christians.


I have seen statues of Mary in Churches, on people's front lawns, etc. So statues of Mary are kept.

They pray to Mary to intercede for them with "her son".

This violates the first and second commandments.

Roman Catholic congregants are mislead by false teachers and false doctrine. That's why many leave the Roman Catholic church. Because of the loss of good members, the Roman Catholic church and some zealous Roman Catholics rather aggressively denigrate Protestant denominations that point out various unscriptural aspects to RC doctrine, while they do not so much do this towards Protestant denominations that have their own gross false teachings but refrain from pointing out Roman Catholic false doctrine. Mostly, if you notice, on FR, rather "assertive" RC posters will focus entirely on Reformed Protestants, referring to them collectively as "Calvinists". That's the only group that I've personally seen "assertive" RC posters target. On the other hand, the "assertive" Calvinists, while they certainly jump in and take part in the "fray", they will also frequently assert false teachings by various other denominational categories, i.e., Mormons, various Evangelicals, Charismatics, etc.

Much of RC doctrine relies on the concept in marketing called "brand loyalty", i.e., "we are the original"; this, of course, is a very powerful tool in controlling people's minds, hence it is so often used in marketing of products.

There is also the unscriptural concept that is pressed into the mind of the congregant that their priest is literallly their gatekeeper to heaven for them. Again, this transferrance from Christ alone as mediator (Scriptural), to an earthly man, a priest, as mediator between congregant and Christ, is a very powerful controlling device in the mind of the congregant. The congregant is lead down the path of believing "any help I can avail myself of in "convincing" Christ to hear my prayers, I ought to make use of it" obviously plays on superstition and is completely contrary to what the New Testament plainly teaches.

Which brings me to another point, superstition. The use of imagery, the carrying of medals, the use of "holy" relics - it's all geared towards controlling the minds of congregants that would fall prey to being superstitious. It never ceases to amaze me how Roman Catholics take physical tokens to be "holy".

More "knowledgeable" Roman Catholics I have asked or heard respond to this topic invariably mince words, as does the Vatican, and get into some wordplay where they are showing reverence to these objects they are not practicing idolatry. Well the test is very simple: can one take one's physical "object" and toss it in the garbage ? If one recoils at the notion - one is then evidencing that one has indeed ascribed some holy (i.e., "set apart for the Lord") character to the object. If one venerates, or reverences, or in any way thinks of it as somehow "special" in terms of a religious context, that's the very definition of idolatry.

I anxiously and yet patiently and confidently await the eventual correction of these errors, however the Lord may bring that about as throughout history Christ's Kingdom is victorious.

Psalm 110:1 "The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool."

Reformed denominations remain gladly accepting those who truly seek the truth of the Word of God that proceeds out of the mouth of the Lord.

Deuteronomy 8:3 "And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the Lord doth man live."

Matthew 4:4 "But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God."
11 posted on 07/30/2014 9:25:05 AM PDT by PieterCasparzen (We have to fix things ourselves)
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To: Petrosius
Will you and your fellow Protestants stop calling Catholics heretics and, for some, not even recognizing us as Christians?

I personally have not been calling Catholic heretics. Its not up to me to police the church. Like Paul I would rather know nothing between us but Jesus Christ and him crucified. So if you don't mention Purgatory, I won't mention predestination.

12 posted on 07/30/2014 10:12:49 AM PDT by tbpiper
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To: marshmallow
“Jesus, in John 17, clearly calls us to be one and I think for those outside the Church, it’s important for them to understand that while there are differences within the Christian denominations, at the core we have so many areas of communality….”

He speaks just like the Vatican II Catholics: Not like a Catholic.

Here is true Catholic teaching:

And here it seems opportune to expound and to refute a certain false opinion, on which this whole question, as well as that complex movement by which non-Catholics seek to bring about the union of the Christian churches depends. For authors who favor this view are accustomed, times almost without number, to bring forward these words of Christ: "That they all may be one.... And there shall be one fold and one shepherd,"[14] with this signification however: that Christ Jesus merely expressed a desire and prayer, which still lacks its fulfillment. - Mortalium Animos, Pope Pius XI, 1928

I bring this up over and over again and Catholics still buy into the false ecumenism.

13 posted on 07/30/2014 11:16:20 AM PDT by piusv
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To: CdMGuy

“How about Pope Francis speaking out loudly and clearly against the slaughter of Christians by Muslims in Iraq, Syria, Africa and elsewhere”

He’s spoke out more about it than any protestant leader has. Protestants IGNORE the slaughter of Christians when those Christian happen to be CATHOLIC! So put that in your pipe and smoke it.


14 posted on 07/30/2014 12:26:24 PM PDT by NKP_Vet
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To: PieterCasparzen

You don’t know what Catholics believe. Your words are plain ignorance.


15 posted on 07/30/2014 1:47:52 PM PDT by Bayard
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To: Bayard
From the Vatican website:

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c1a1.htm#2112

Idolatry

“2112 The first commandment condemns polytheism. It requires man neither to believe in, nor to venerate, other divinities than the one true God. Scripture constantly recalls this rejection of “idols, [of] silver and gold, the work of men’s hands. They have mouths, but do not speak; eyes, but do not see.” These empty idols make their worshippers empty: “Those who make them are like them; so are all who trust in them.”42 God, however, is the “living God”43 who gives life and intervenes in history.

2113 Idolatry not only refers to false pagan worship. It remains a constant temptation to faith. Idolatry consists in divinizing what is not God. Man commits idolatry whenever he honors and reveres a creature in place of God, whether this be gods or demons (for example, satanism), power, pleasure, race, ancestors, the state, money, etc. Jesus says, “You cannot serve God and mammon.”44 Many martyrs died for not adoring “the Beast”45 refusing even to simulate such worship. Idolatry rejects the unique Lordship of God; it is therefore incompatible with communion with God.46 “

Note carefully how the second commandment is not mentioned in the section labeled “Idolatry”.

The second commandment IS the actual commandment that forbids that very practice of Idolatry.

So why would the catechism on the Vatican website avoid mentioning the specific commandment prohibiting Idolatry in its own teaching on Idolatry ?

Just to refresh our memory, the second commandment:

Exodus 20

“4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.”

Of course this leads us to the Vatican’s position on “icons”, which we read about in the catechism here:

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p2s1c2a1.htm#1159

Holy Images

“1159 The sacred image, the liturgical icon, principally represents Christ. It cannot represent the invisible and incomprehensible God, but the incarnation of the Son of God has ushered in a new “economy” of images:

Previously God, who has neither a body nor a face, absolutely could not be represented by an image. But now that he has made himself visible in the flesh and has lived with men, I can make an image of what I have seen of God . . . and contemplate the glory of the Lord, his face unveiled.27 “

Did you ever think about whether or not the Roman Catholic teaching that “Holy Images” are acceptable to God can be proven by citing passages of God’s Word, the Bible ?

There simply is no valid Scriptural proof for a Christian to consider any physical object as “sacred” or “holy”, because the second commandment specifically prohibits the practice.

16 posted on 07/30/2014 2:41:37 PM PDT by PieterCasparzen (We have to fix things ourselves)
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To: PieterCasparzen

We don’t pray to statues. We don’t worship Mary. Thus, your concerns are unwarranted. The Commandments demand that we only worship God (the Trinity). We do so. We also do not worship any statues, but we most certainly have religious art. The Jews also had religious art. They just didn’t worship it and neither do we.


17 posted on 07/30/2014 2:49:29 PM PDT by vladimir998
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To: vladimir998

Once art is called “religious” art one is ascribing holiness to the art.

As I said above, would one toss the art in the garbage without giving it a second thought ?

If one does not ascribe any holiness to the art, one would not think twice about tossing the art in the garbage.

If someone knocks the head off a “religious” statue, are they “desecrating” it ?

If one considers them to have “desecrated” the statue, then one is ascribing holiness to the art.

The art of the Holy Temple of ancient Israel was specific to the Temple because the Temple was constructed based on direct revelation from God through the prophets. There is no New Testament analog to the Temple that is directed by the New Testament for Christian worship.

If you recall, the New Testament quite emphatically ends ceremonial law of the Old Testament in the sections which speak to the issue of Gentiles not being required to practice the Jewish rites and feasts.


18 posted on 07/30/2014 3:01:35 PM PDT by PieterCasparzen (We have to fix things ourselves)
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To: PieterCasparzen
Since Catholics DO NOT WORSHIP MARY there is nothing to stop and you are free to call us Christians.

Catholics will say whatever is necessary to get believers to stop "pestering" them. I am an ex-Catholic and know, because I used to do the same thing. Catholics worship Mary big time, no matter how much some deny it.
19 posted on 07/30/2014 3:19:12 PM PDT by Old Yeller (Truth is the enemy of our dysfunctional government.)
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To: vladimir998
We don’t worship Mary.

But RC doctrine include praying to Mary to "intercede" for us with "her son". Nowhere does the New or Old Testament specify that prayers should be prayed to anyone other than God the Father and God the Son, Jesus Christ.

Those who are misled by this would do well to study their Bibles and seek the truth from the Word of God; they can see for themselves that Scripture condemns this.

Matthew 15:9 "9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men."

Matthew 6:6 "6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly."

In response to the disciples request to be taught to pray, Jesus answered:

Luke 11

"1 And it came to pass, that, as he was praying in a certain place, when he ceased, one of his disciples said unto him, Lord, teach us to pray, as John also taught his disciples.
2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth."
20 posted on 07/30/2014 3:23:33 PM PDT by PieterCasparzen (We have to fix things ourselves)
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To: PieterCasparzen

“But RC doctrine include praying to Mary to “intercede” for us with “her son”.”

So Mary praying for us is us worshiping Mary? If I ask you to pray for my cancer stricken wife, am I worshiping you? If I ask you to mow my lawn am I acknowledging you as Creator of the universe?


21 posted on 07/30/2014 4:08:58 PM PDT by vladimir998
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To: PieterCasparzen

“Once art is called “religious” art one is ascribing holiness to the art.”

No. That’s like saying sports art is athletic rather than it represents athletic people and acts of athleticism.

“As I said above, would one toss the art in the garbage without giving it a second thought ?”

Would you throw pictures of your family in the trash without giving it a second thought? Would you throw away a baseball card collection without at least considering its worth? What you’re saying makes no sense.


22 posted on 07/30/2014 4:13:25 PM PDT by vladimir998
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To: Dr. Thorne

“If Catholics would stop their heretical Mary worship, then I would consider calling them Christians.”

And if they’d stop believing that baptizing a baby ensures his future in Heaven. And if they’d stop believing that giving Last Rights to a dying person actually has any effect on entering Heaven. And if they’d stop lighting candles for dead folk, believing it’s effective. And if they’d stop confessing their sins to mortal men. And if... and if... then I would consider calling them Christians.


23 posted on 07/30/2014 4:35:29 PM PDT by MayflowerMadam
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To: vladimir998

Vlad, it’s not like sports at all.

Holiness is not sportiness.

Things are either Holy or they are not.

A statue is either Holy or it’s not.

The Bible tells us there are no Holy statues.

The Lord’s Day, Sunday, is a Holy Day. But statues are not Holy at all. They are simply objects. The second commandment forbids us to ascribe any special religious character to any object.

As you can see from the Vatican website quotes I posted above, the Vatican contradicts - quite obviously - from Scripture in their teachings on this subject.

Regarding tossing away pictures of my family - such pictures are not Holy. So doing so would be a decision based on how to dispose of an OBJECT. I may have old pictures that I have replaced with new ones that are much better pictures that I want to keep. In that case, I’d dump the old ones without worrying about it at all - they would be refuse to me. If such a picture gets lost or misplaced, I might be bothered a bit as if I misplaced my car keys, but it would not be like I lost a Holy relic, because they are just OBJECTS. Mere physical things. Earthly things. Wordly things. As long as I desire or require objects, I keep them, when they are no longer useful, they can be disgarded like a worn-out shoe.

Every single object I’ve owned or ever owned is nothing to me relative to the importance to me of God the Father and Son.

And I’m sentimental and have old things from when I was a kid, things from grandparents, etc. But I realize that ultimately those things are just things. I can’t take them beyond the grave - they are useless to me in terms of my salvation, and they provide me nothing in terms of my Christian faith. My faith in Jesus Christ is independent of physical objects, completely.

This subject always brings to mind the movie Memphis Belle when the one gunner pretended to throw the other gunner’s “medal” of some saint out the window of the plane on their last mission, and the guy completely freaked out. That is superstition, plain and simple, and all too common. That medal had NO USE WHATSOEVER to protecting the fellow - and his thinking that it afforded him any safety at all is - superstition - and contrary to Scripture.


24 posted on 07/30/2014 7:02:24 PM PDT by PieterCasparzen (We have to fix things ourselves)
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To: vladimir998

Christ is the ONE mediator between us and God the Father.

There are no Scripture verses which instruct us to pray to dead people and ask them to pray for us.

There are no Scripture verses which afford Mary any unique intercessory position in relation to Jesus Christ.

There are multiple verses which tell us that Christ is the ONE mediator between God and man.


25 posted on 07/30/2014 7:15:16 PM PDT by PieterCasparzen (We have to fix things ourselves)
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To: PieterCasparzen

“Vlad, it’s not like sports at all.”

The analogy still holds. To say that calling some art “religious art” means “one is ascribing holiness to the art” is not only wrong but stupidly wrong. That’s all there is to it.

“As you can see from the Vatican website quotes I posted above, the Vatican contradicts - quite obviously - from Scripture in their teachings on this subject.”

That’s false. You disagree with the Church. The Church does not disagree with Scripture. The fault lies with your understanding, not Christ’s Church or His Scriptures.

Again, what the Bible prohibited was worshiping idols. We don’t worship idols. We worship God. Also, I realize you’re a Protestant and therefore naturally not very knowledgeable about Christianity or its history, but you make a typical error that so many Protestant anti-Catholics make:

“Note carefully how the second commandment is not mentioned in the section labeled “Idolatry”.”

It is mentioned with other forms of denial of the one true God. First of all, most Protestants number the commandments differently than Catholics and Lutherans do. What most Protestants call the Second Commandment, about graven images, is part of the First Commandment for Catholics and Lutherans. If you actually look at the Catechism, which I seriously doubt that you did, you would have seen that the prohibition against worshiping graven images is in section iv of “Article 1:
THE FIRST COMMANDMENT” which begins at paragraph 2084. Section iv begins at 2129-2032. The whole section is about the First Commandment and it discusses a number of forms of denial of the one true God. Idolatry is one of them, but not the only one.

And none of this changes that fact that Protestant anti-Catholics are hypocrites.


26 posted on 07/30/2014 7:24:48 PM PDT by vladimir998
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To: PieterCasparzen

“Christ is the ONE mediator between us and God the Father.”

So you never ask anyone to pray for you? I bet you do. Does the fact that you asked someone to do that mean he isn’t working through Christ? Nope. Christ shares His offices with His people - such as the office of judge for the saints will judge fallen angels. Our God is a generous God.

“There are no Scripture verses which instruct us to pray to dead people and ask them to pray for us.”

There is no verse that says all truths are in Scripture either. Show me the verse that says Matthew wrote a Gospel. Show me where in that Gospel it says that the Gospel is inspired. Can you?

“There are no Scripture verses which afford Mary any unique intercessory position in relation to Jesus Christ.”

I would say there is - the wedding of Cana, but in any case your opinion is irrelevant.

“There are multiple verses which tell us that Christ is the ONE mediator between God and man.”

I don’t disagree with any of them. Christ shares His office with His brothers and sisters who call upon the Father as Abba. Hence you can pray for someone and so can I. Our God is a generous God.


27 posted on 07/30/2014 7:30:32 PM PDT by vladimir998
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To: vladimir998

Here’s the quote from the Vatican, following my comments.

2130, “Neverthless”, points out objects that were specific to ancient Israel through direct revelation of God. There’s no direct revelation from God concerning statues of Mary or Jesus Christ.

2131 - the RC Church declares that there is a new “economy” of images. Now really, how ridiculous a statement is that, with zero Scriptural support. They simply decided that hey, since Christ became incarnate - we can now make pictures and statues of him ! And we are NOT worshipping the image. It’s an image of Christ - (now I’m all confused, because Christ IS due worship) - but we are not going to worship the “image”.

2132 clears it all up for the lost sheeple - comforting them right off the bat that they are ok on the 1st/2nd commandment. No need to worry. “the honor rendered to an image passes to its prototype,” - Wow, that was clever wording. So it is “honor”, not “worship”. And our ... “honor” of this idol.. er... image.. .... ok.... it “passes through” ( I don’t think there is a theological term “passes through” ) to the objects “prototype”. So if we honor a “statue of Jesus Christ”, the “honor” we “honor” it with “passes through” to Jesus Christ himself. Whew ! That was some explanation. If we “honor” a statue of Mary, we are just having our “honor” of her statue “pass through” to Mary. We are honoring Mary. And we can bank on it being true even if you can’t find that “honor passing through” in a Bible verse.

This is amazing in it’s audacity, word games, and lack of Scriptural support.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c1a1.htm

* IV. “YOU SHALL NOT MAKE FOR YOURSELF A GRAVEN IMAGE . . .”

2129 The divine injunction included the prohibition of every representation of God by the hand of man. Deuteronomy explains: “Since you saw no form on the day that the Lord spoke to you at Horeb out of the midst of the fire, beware lest you act corruptly by making a graven image for yourselves, in the form of any figure. . . . “66 It is the absolutely transcendent God who revealed himself to Israel. “He is the all,” but at the same time “he is greater than all his works.”67 He is “the author of beauty.”68

2130 Nevertheless, already in the Old Testament, God ordained or permitted the making of images that pointed symbolically toward salvation by the incarnate Word: so it was with the bronze serpent, the ark of the covenant, and the cherubim.69

2131 Basing itself on the mystery of the incarnate Word, the seventh ecumenical council at Nicaea (787) justified against the iconoclasts the veneration of icons - of Christ, but also of the Mother of God, the angels, and all the saints. By becoming incarnate, the Son of God introduced a new “economy” of images.

2132 The Christian veneration of images is not contrary to the first commandment which proscribes idols. Indeed, “the honor rendered to an image passes to its prototype,” and “whoever venerates an image venerates the person portrayed in it.”70 The honor paid to sacred images is a “respectful veneration,” not the adoration due to God alone:

Religious worship is not directed to images in themselves, considered as mere things, but under their distinctive aspect as images leading us on to God incarnate. The movement toward the image does not terminate in it as image, but tends toward that whose image it is.71


28 posted on 07/30/2014 8:24:42 PM PDT by PieterCasparzen (We have to fix things ourselves)
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To: PieterCasparzen

29 posted on 07/30/2014 8:25:50 PM PDT by narses (Matthew 7:6. He appears to have made up his mind let him live with the consequences.)
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To: vladimir998
So you never ask anyone to pray for you? I bet you do. Does the fact that you asked someone to do that mean he isn’t working through Christ? Nope. Christ shares His offices with His people - such as the office of judge for the saints will judge fallen angels. Our God is a generous God.

Yes, but people who are alive. I pray for others, who are alive, not the dead, for whom prayers are too late.

“There are no Scripture verses which instruct us to pray to dead people and ask them to pray for us.”

There is no verse that says all truths are in Scripture either. Show me the verse that says Matthew wrote a Gospel. Show me where in that Gospel it says that the Gospel is inspired. Can you?


Come now, we should know the basics of interpreting Scripture.

“There are no Scripture verses which afford Mary any unique intercessory position in relation to Jesus Christ.”

I would say there is - the wedding of Cana, but in any case your opinion is irrelevant.


Quite the opposite; from Jesus' wording in those very brief exchanges we can only infer that she indeed had no such special place. Of course, your phrase saying that my opinion is irrelevant is invalid, it's an ad hominem argument.

John 2

"1 And the third day there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and the mother of Jesus was there:
2 And both Jesus was called, and his disciples, to the marriage.
3 And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine.
4 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come.
5 His mother saith unto the servants, Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it."

The only other mention of Mary in that chapter was:

"12 After this he went down to Capernaum, he, and his mother, and his brethren, and his disciples: and they continued there not many days."

Commentary on this account:

1) We can infer from Mary advising Jesus they were out of wine that she knew that he had the power to address the issue, as she did not pose a question, and his response implies that he understood her words to be a request for him to address the issue. She simply advised him they were out of wine, she did not speak in familiar "jocular" manner one could expect of a mother and son who tended to have a "kidding", etc., relationship, she did not "nag", she did not try to "convince" Jesus to do something; she spoke to him as one speaks to one in authority.

2) In verse 4 Jesus addresses Mary his mother as Woman, and his response is not that of an earthly son who would graciously do what his mother asks in such a case, but instead Jesus makes a point of speaking from a position of authority.

3) Not knowing what Jesus was going to do, her command to the servants to do whatever Jesus commanded indicates that she fully trusted that he would successfully address the situation. Not only did her words in verse 5 demonstrate that she submitted to Jesus' authority, but she also exhorted the servers at the party to obey Jesus.

There clearly is nothing in this chapter to suggest that Mary was afforded a special intercessory position, because there is no basis upon which to infer that that anyone at the wedding asked Mary to ask Jesus about the wine shortage. This is Christ's first miracle, so no one would have any reason to look to Christ to somehow produce wine where there was none. How Mary found out is left out; was she helping serve at the wedding, did she simply overhear, did someone mention it to her ? Scripture does not say. To create such a major doctrine as Mary having an intercessory role from the hereafter based on what is left out of such a short account makes no sense.

Such an idea is completely contrary to the doctrine Christ preached elsewhere, notably:

Mark 3

"31 There came then his brethren and his mother, and, standing without, sent unto him, calling him.
32 And the multitude sat about him, and they said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren without seek for thee.
33 And he answered them, saying, Who is my mother, or my brethren?
34 And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
35 For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother."

That passage clearly contradicts the idea that Mary had any special role so important as an intercessor.
30 posted on 07/30/2014 9:32:41 PM PDT by PieterCasparzen (We have to fix things ourselves)
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To: vladimir998
“There are multiple verses which tell us that Christ is the ONE mediator between God and man.”

I don’t disagree with any of them. Christ shares His office with His brothers and sisters who call upon the Father as Abba. Hence you can pray for someone and so can I. Our God is a generous God.


We pray directly to God in the name of Jesus Christ, as our mediator.

Christ does not share his role as mediator; we can not pray to God in any name other than Jesus' name.

Prayer instructions were specifically asked for by the disciples and specifically given by Christ himself. With that specificity, proper Biblical interpretation would require us to infer that Christ gave sufficient and thorough instruction to the point of being perfect instructions that are recorded in Scripture. There is no valid way to from that text conclude that Christ "should have" or "intended to but did not" say that we could also pray to Mary and she would convey our requests on to him. If that were indeed the case, the place in Scripture where that would be included would be in the instructions for prayer uttered by Jesus himself when he was asked specifically for instruction regarding prayer.
31 posted on 07/30/2014 9:43:40 PM PDT by PieterCasparzen (We have to fix things ourselves)
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To: tbpiper

There are no anathemas against you. There were anathemas against Luther etc. but not for those centuries later like yourself.


32 posted on 07/30/2014 10:48:27 PM PDT by Cronos (Obama’s dislike of Assad is not based on Assad’s brutality but that he isn't a jihadi Moslem)
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To: PieterCasparzen

“We pray directly to God in the name of Jesus Christ, as our mediator.”

So do we.

“Christ does not share his role as mediator; we can not pray to God in any name other than Jesus’ name.”

If He doesn’t share His role, then you can’t pray for anyone.


33 posted on 07/31/2014 3:22:28 AM PDT by vladimir998
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To: PieterCasparzen

“Yes, but people who are alive. I pray for others, who are alive, not the dead, for whom prayers are too late.”

Saints are alive in Christ whether their bodies are alive or not.


34 posted on 07/31/2014 3:23:22 AM PDT by vladimir998
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To: PieterCasparzen

We don’t worship idols. Case closed. You can post all the assertions you want, but none of them will change the fact that we don’t worship idols.


35 posted on 07/31/2014 3:25:17 AM PDT by vladimir998
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To: Cronos
There were anathemas against Luther etc. but not for those centuries later like yourself.

From a quick search I found this:

CANON IX. If any one shall say, that by faith alone the impious is justified.....

The 'if anyone' part seems to include a lot more folks than just Luther. I am certainly no expert on this subject and perhaps the Catholic church has limited the anathema in some official document. I just haven't heard of it.

36 posted on 07/31/2014 3:48:22 AM PDT by tbpiper
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To: vladimir998

So you’re proving that RC doctrine does not include idolatry because you assert that RC doctrine does not include idolatry.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_by_assertion

Case closed ?

Could we be at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_nauseam ?


37 posted on 07/31/2014 7:23:18 AM PDT by PieterCasparzen (We have to fix things ourselves)
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To: vladimir998
“We pray directly to God in the name of Jesus Christ, as our mediator.”

So do we.

“Christ does not share his role as mediator; we can not pray to God in any name other than Jesus’ name.”

If He doesn’t share His role, then you can’t pray for anyone.


I am alive, not dead. So when I pray for someone else, I am praying to God in the name of Christ but I am not a heavenly mediator interceding with Christ on behalf of the person I am praying for. I am offering my own prayer, not an intercession, because I have no power to intercede with Christ on someone's behalf. I can only offer a prayer, and whether or not God hears my prayer would be subject to what Holy Scripture declares in various verses where it says that God hears or does not hear prayers. Some examples of these verses:

Isaiah 1:15 "And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood."

Psalm 10:17 "17 Lord, thou hast heard the desire of the humble: thou wilt prepare their heart, thou wilt cause thine ear to hear:"

There are, of course, many verses on the topic.

I have no special access to God hearing my prayers than any other person; therefore, I am not a God-man mediator.

Of course, Christ's position as mediator is completely unique, as no one is worthy to be in the presence of God without the one-time, perfect atoning sacrifice of Christ, thus Christ is the the one mediator between God and man, and we must pray to God in the name of Jesus Christ. This is taught in the Bible and it is clearly taught.

If a person has died and has gone to be with the Lord, and then we pray to that person that they would intercede with Christ for us, we are attributing to them a mediatorial role and we are believing in a heresy, since this is a significant concept that would need to be clearly stated in Scripture in order for it to be Scriptural, yet it is not mentioned at all, and it stands clearly contradictory to the many verses which teach a doctrine that Christ is the only mediator between God and man. While scripture does exhort living believers to pray for each other, it simply does not teach that we should pray to dead believers.
38 posted on 07/31/2014 7:44:08 AM PDT by PieterCasparzen (We have to fix things ourselves)
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To: PieterCasparzen

“I am alive, not dead.”

The saints are alive in Christ. God is the God of the living, not the dead. Mark 12:27


39 posted on 07/31/2014 3:13:08 PM PDT by vladimir998
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To: PieterCasparzen

“So you’re proving that RC doctrine does not include idolatry because you assert that RC doctrine does not include idolatry.”

No, I am simply stating an undeniable fact: The Catholic has never and will never approve of idolatry. The Catholic Church denounces idolatry.

“Case closed?”

Yes, it is.


40 posted on 07/31/2014 3:14:51 PM PDT by vladimir998
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To: vladimir998
The saints are alive in Christ. God is the God of the living, not the dead. Mark 12:27

I'm not disputing that.

There is nothing in the Bible that says we are to pray to dead saints to get them to make appeals to Christ on our behalf.

The Bible does give specific instructions regarding prayer that it is to be directly to God in Jesus Christ's name.

Praying to anyone else contradicts Biblical teaching.

Getting God's ear is not "based on who you know" or "who your friends are" or if you appeal to "someone with a lot of "pull" in heaven" who can "put in a good word for you". Such ideas are not only nonsensical they are heretical. But since they ring true with many humans, even mafia types and corrupt politicians who are "big wheels" in of some of the RC communities, they have been used for centuries to lead millions of congregants astray from the truth. It never ceases to amaze me how sometimes people who are well-known criminals are welcomed to have their weddings and funerals in RC Churches. That continuing practice in and of itself is enough for many people to see just how corrupt the Roman Church must be, that such people would not be excommunicated.

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/queens/parishioners-gotti-wouldn-tolerate-virgin-mary-statue-decapitation-article-1.1578589

Excerpt rom the story:

Ozone Park parishioners say John Gotti wouldn't tolerate Virgin Mary statue decapitation

"For justice, they would have gone to the Teflon Don. St. Mary Gate of Heaven parishioners reckon the deceased Gambino crime boss kept things orderly in the neighborhood and the religious icon wouldn't have been ruined in his day."

...

"Church officials discovered the 4-foot statue decapitated last Monday morning, and the NYPD Hate Crimes Unit is investigating, officials said.

The Gambino crime boss, who died in 2002, never counted himself as a parishioner at the church — he attended St. Helen’s Roman Catholic Church in Howard Beach — but parishioners recall his bond with the 110-year-old institution, which hosted his daughter Victoria Gotti’s wedding in 1984."
41 posted on 07/31/2014 4:30:03 PM PDT by PieterCasparzen (We have to fix things ourselves)
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To: PieterCasparzen

“I’m not disputing that.”

That’s exactly what you’re disputing.


42 posted on 08/01/2014 5:34:46 AM PDT by vladimir998
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To: vladimir998

The saints are alive in Christ, Vlad, they just can’t “hook you up” in heaven because they have “pull”.


43 posted on 08/01/2014 7:18:42 AM PDT by PieterCasparzen (We have to fix things ourselves)
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To: PieterCasparzen

“The saints are alive in Christ, Vlad, they just can’t “hook you up” in heaven because they have “pull”.”

Christ has “pull”. He shares it.


44 posted on 08/01/2014 9:36:12 AM PDT by vladimir998
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To: vladimir998

Not according to the Bible.


45 posted on 08/01/2014 10:31:44 AM PDT by PieterCasparzen (We have to fix things ourselves)
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To: PieterCasparzen

“Not according to the Bible.”

Nowhere in the Bible doe sit say there has to be. Sola scriptura is a Protestant heresy. It is neither taught by scripture nor believed by orthodox Christians.


46 posted on 08/01/2014 10:43:27 AM PDT by vladimir998
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To: vladimir998

Why do you bother with the Bible at all ?


47 posted on 08/01/2014 11:01:29 AM PDT by PieterCasparzen (We have to fix things ourselves)
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To: vladimir998

Deuteronomy 4:2 “Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.”

Proverbs 30

“5 Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.
6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.”

Revelation 22:18 “For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:”

To add teachings that are not in the Bible and require Christians to believe them implies that the Word of God is insufficient, that man knows better than God, which is nonsense.


48 posted on 08/01/2014 11:09:13 AM PDT by PieterCasparzen (We have to fix things ourselves)
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To: vladimir998
Sola scriptura is a Protestant heresy.

So using the Bible as the basis of Christian doctrine is heresy ?

But those "heretical" Reformed Protestants don't have known Mafia bosses and politicians who consistently vote in favor of abortion accepted as members of their Congregations.

And the Roman Church does. Hmmm.

I can see why the Roman Church would want to distance itself from the Bible, and replace it with its own "extensions, enhancements and revisions", like a Christianity version 2.0.

Idolatry isn't heresy if we call it "honoring an image" with the honor "passing through" to the "prototype" of the image.

As long as there are enough Mafia dons in the membership, they will prevent all the statues from being desecrated, and all will be right with the world.
49 posted on 08/01/2014 11:25:58 AM PDT by PieterCasparzen (We have to fix things ourselves)
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To: PieterCasparzen

“So using the Bible as the basis of Christian doctrine is heresy ?”

Imposing an unbiblical hermenteutic on the Bible - sola scriptura - is heresy.

“But those “heretical” Reformed Protestants don’t have known Mafia bosses and politicians who consistently vote in favor of abortion accepted as members of their Congregations.”

Clearly you’re unfamiliar with the history of Protestant Europe.

“And the Roman Church does. Hmmm.”

I feel sorry for you. I judge the falsity of Protestantism by the falsity of its doctrines. You judge Catholicism by those who reject it. Which is the more sound method?

“I can see why the Roman Church would want to distance itself from the Bible, and replace it with its own “extensions, enhancements and revisions”, like a Christianity version 2.0.”

I can see why Protestant anti-Catholics always have to resort to lying. They have to make things up out of thin air because their doctrines are false and they’re usually to stupid to even hold a logical debate about them. Hence, they lie. Lying is a necessity for them - just as John Henry Newman said it was.

“Idolatry isn’t heresy if we call it “honoring an image” with the honor “passing through” to the “prototype” of the image.”

If it isn’t idolatry, then it isn’t idolatry no matter what you call it.

“As long as there are enough Mafia dons in the membership, they will prevent all the statues from being desecrated, and all will be right with the world.”

So what Mafia members protect Protestant statues from being desecrated?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reformation_Wall

Many Protestant anti-Catholics are proof that government education helps make people stupid.


50 posted on 08/01/2014 11:40:48 AM PDT by vladimir998
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