Skip to comments.Evangelicals Hail Pope's Caserta Visit and Apologise to Catholics
Posted on 07/30/2014 6:20:37 AM PDT by marshmallow
The head of the World Evangelical Alliance has hailed Pope Francis meeting with Pentecostals in Caserta and apologised for discrimination of Catholics by Evangelicals in the past. After an encounter with the Catholic community in the southern Italian city on Saturday, the Pope returned to Caserta on Monday where he was welcomed by over 200 members of the Pentecostal Church of Reconciliation.
Commenting on the impact of that historic meeting, the Secretary General of the World Evangelical Alliance, Rev. Dr. Geoff Tunnicliffe said while the official conversations between Catholics and Evangelicals are an essential part of the ecumenical journey, the building up of trust and friendship leads to a deepening of those theological dialogues. He also talked about the importance of a meeting that he and other Christian leaders had in June with Pope Francis in the Vatican and about the legacy of Evangelical leader Tony Palmer who died ten days ago
(Excerpt) Read more at en.radiovaticana.va ...
Catholics tell us that Protestants are 52,000+ organizations ("with more popping up every day"), holding to 52,000 different interpretations of the Bible because we can't get along with each other, and yet we Protestants somehow managed to get together under one leader and hailed their pope.
Meanwhile, these same Catholics can't seem to get together to hail this pope themselves.
I'll be in the corner. Laughing.
“Catholics tell us that Protestants are 52,000+ organizations...”
Protestants have said much the same thing - about Protestant sects. And the number is clearly much larger than 52,000.
“I’ll be in the corner. Laughing.”
And we’ll be laughing too. Mostly at you.
In what sense are you "under" Geoff Tunnicliffe, and exactly how do you join him in "hailing" the pope? Be specific.
these same Catholics can't seem to get together to hail this pope themselves
What does that mean? "Catholics" who don't recognize Francis as Pope are outside the church. Those who are aren't under some magical obligation to think everything he does or says is equally good. Popes sometimes make bad decisions or say dumb things. Admitting that isn't disunity, just sanity.
This laughable alliance does not represent me or millions of other Evangelicals. We all believe one thing: Jesus Christ is Lord. If Catholics would stop their heretical Mary worship, then I would consider calling them Christians.
Catholics tell us that Protestants are 52,000+ organizations...
Protestants have said much the same thing - about Protestant sects. And the number is clearly much larger than 52,000.
Ill be in the corner. Laughing.
And well be laughing too. Mostly at you.
We step into eternity, and God’s presence one by one.
If we hear,” Depart...I never knew you...” No one will be laughing.
A believer has the indwelling Holy Spirit to give him the wisdom to understand God’s Word. Doesn’t matter if the whole world is against him.
“It isn’t what I don’t understand in the Bible that troubles me, it’s those portions that I do understand.”
Such as, “The wages of sin is death.”
So is the pope going to 'unpronounce' the anathemas against us?
Since Catholics DO NOT WORSHIP MARY there is nothing to stop and you are free to call us Christians.
To end discrimination in society is not the same as saying that one's error puts one outside the Church.
Will you and your fellow Protestants stop calling Catholics heretics and, for some, not even recognizing us as Christians?
How about Pope Francis speaking out loudly and clearly against the slaughter of Christians by Muslims in Iraq, Syria, Africa and elsewhere. How about him loudly and clearly calling on all Muslim leaders, both religious and political, to do the same thing. When the Pope starts doing that day after day, I will begin to have some respect for him.
I personally have not been calling Catholic heretics. Its not up to me to police the church. Like Paul I would rather know nothing between us but Jesus Christ and him crucified. So if you don't mention Purgatory, I won't mention predestination.
He speaks just like the Vatican II Catholics: Not like a Catholic.
Here is true Catholic teaching:
And here it seems opportune to expound and to refute a certain false opinion, on which this whole question, as well as that complex movement by which non-Catholics seek to bring about the union of the Christian churches depends. For authors who favor this view are accustomed, times almost without number, to bring forward these words of Christ: "That they all may be one.... And there shall be one fold and one shepherd," with this signification however: that Christ Jesus merely expressed a desire and prayer, which still lacks its fulfillment. - Mortalium Animos, Pope Pius XI, 1928
I bring this up over and over again and Catholics still buy into the false ecumenism.
“How about Pope Francis speaking out loudly and clearly against the slaughter of Christians by Muslims in Iraq, Syria, Africa and elsewhere”
He’s spoke out more about it than any protestant leader has. Protestants IGNORE the slaughter of Christians when those Christian happen to be CATHOLIC! So put that in your pipe and smoke it.
You don’t know what Catholics believe. Your words are plain ignorance.
“2112 The first commandment condemns polytheism. It requires man neither to believe in, nor to venerate, other divinities than the one true God. Scripture constantly recalls this rejection of “idols, [of] silver and gold, the work of men’s hands. They have mouths, but do not speak; eyes, but do not see.” These empty idols make their worshippers empty: “Those who make them are like them; so are all who trust in them.”42 God, however, is the “living God”43 who gives life and intervenes in history.
2113 Idolatry not only refers to false pagan worship. It remains a constant temptation to faith. Idolatry consists in divinizing what is not God. Man commits idolatry whenever he honors and reveres a creature in place of God, whether this be gods or demons (for example, satanism), power, pleasure, race, ancestors, the state, money, etc. Jesus says, “You cannot serve God and mammon.”44 Many martyrs died for not adoring “the Beast”45 refusing even to simulate such worship. Idolatry rejects the unique Lordship of God; it is therefore incompatible with communion with God.46 “
Note carefully how the second commandment is not mentioned in the section labeled “Idolatry”.
The second commandment IS the actual commandment that forbids that very practice of Idolatry.
So why would the catechism on the Vatican website avoid mentioning the specific commandment prohibiting Idolatry in its own teaching on Idolatry ?
Just to refresh our memory, the second commandment:
“4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.”
Of course this leads us to the Vatican’s position on “icons”, which we read about in the catechism here:
“1159 The sacred image, the liturgical icon, principally represents Christ. It cannot represent the invisible and incomprehensible God, but the incarnation of the Son of God has ushered in a new “economy” of images:
Previously God, who has neither a body nor a face, absolutely could not be represented by an image. But now that he has made himself visible in the flesh and has lived with men, I can make an image of what I have seen of God . . . and contemplate the glory of the Lord, his face unveiled.27 “
Did you ever think about whether or not the Roman Catholic teaching that “Holy Images” are acceptable to God can be proven by citing passages of God’s Word, the Bible ?
There simply is no valid Scriptural proof for a Christian to consider any physical object as “sacred” or “holy”, because the second commandment specifically prohibits the practice.
We don’t pray to statues. We don’t worship Mary. Thus, your concerns are unwarranted. The Commandments demand that we only worship God (the Trinity). We do so. We also do not worship any statues, but we most certainly have religious art. The Jews also had religious art. They just didn’t worship it and neither do we.
Once art is called “religious” art one is ascribing holiness to the art.
As I said above, would one toss the art in the garbage without giving it a second thought ?
If one does not ascribe any holiness to the art, one would not think twice about tossing the art in the garbage.
If someone knocks the head off a “religious” statue, are they “desecrating” it ?
If one considers them to have “desecrated” the statue, then one is ascribing holiness to the art.
The art of the Holy Temple of ancient Israel was specific to the Temple because the Temple was constructed based on direct revelation from God through the prophets. There is no New Testament analog to the Temple that is directed by the New Testament for Christian worship.
If you recall, the New Testament quite emphatically ends ceremonial law of the Old Testament in the sections which speak to the issue of Gentiles not being required to practice the Jewish rites and feasts.
“But RC doctrine include praying to Mary to “intercede” for us with “her son”.”
So Mary praying for us is us worshiping Mary? If I ask you to pray for my cancer stricken wife, am I worshiping you? If I ask you to mow my lawn am I acknowledging you as Creator of the universe?
“Once art is called religious art one is ascribing holiness to the art.”
No. That’s like saying sports art is athletic rather than it represents athletic people and acts of athleticism.
“As I said above, would one toss the art in the garbage without giving it a second thought ?”
Would you throw pictures of your family in the trash without giving it a second thought? Would you throw away a baseball card collection without at least considering its worth? What you’re saying makes no sense.
“If Catholics would stop their heretical Mary worship, then I would consider calling them Christians.”
And if they’d stop believing that baptizing a baby ensures his future in Heaven. And if they’d stop believing that giving Last Rights to a dying person actually has any effect on entering Heaven. And if they’d stop lighting candles for dead folk, believing it’s effective. And if they’d stop confessing their sins to mortal men. And if... and if... then I would consider calling them Christians.
Vlad, it’s not like sports at all.
Holiness is not sportiness.
Things are either Holy or they are not.
A statue is either Holy or it’s not.
The Bible tells us there are no Holy statues.
The Lord’s Day, Sunday, is a Holy Day. But statues are not Holy at all. They are simply objects. The second commandment forbids us to ascribe any special religious character to any object.
As you can see from the Vatican website quotes I posted above, the Vatican contradicts - quite obviously - from Scripture in their teachings on this subject.
Regarding tossing away pictures of my family - such pictures are not Holy. So doing so would be a decision based on how to dispose of an OBJECT. I may have old pictures that I have replaced with new ones that are much better pictures that I want to keep. In that case, I’d dump the old ones without worrying about it at all - they would be refuse to me. If such a picture gets lost or misplaced, I might be bothered a bit as if I misplaced my car keys, but it would not be like I lost a Holy relic, because they are just OBJECTS. Mere physical things. Earthly things. Wordly things. As long as I desire or require objects, I keep them, when they are no longer useful, they can be disgarded like a worn-out shoe.
Every single object I’ve owned or ever owned is nothing to me relative to the importance to me of God the Father and Son.
And I’m sentimental and have old things from when I was a kid, things from grandparents, etc. But I realize that ultimately those things are just things. I can’t take them beyond the grave - they are useless to me in terms of my salvation, and they provide me nothing in terms of my Christian faith. My faith in Jesus Christ is independent of physical objects, completely.
This subject always brings to mind the movie Memphis Belle when the one gunner pretended to throw the other gunner’s “medal” of some saint out the window of the plane on their last mission, and the guy completely freaked out. That is superstition, plain and simple, and all too common. That medal had NO USE WHATSOEVER to protecting the fellow - and his thinking that it afforded him any safety at all is - superstition - and contrary to Scripture.
Christ is the ONE mediator between us and God the Father.
There are no Scripture verses which instruct us to pray to dead people and ask them to pray for us.
There are no Scripture verses which afford Mary any unique intercessory position in relation to Jesus Christ.
There are multiple verses which tell us that Christ is the ONE mediator between God and man.
“Vlad, its not like sports at all.”
The analogy still holds. To say that calling some art “religious art” means “one is ascribing holiness to the art” is not only wrong but stupidly wrong. That’s all there is to it.
“As you can see from the Vatican website quotes I posted above, the Vatican contradicts - quite obviously - from Scripture in their teachings on this subject.”
That’s false. You disagree with the Church. The Church does not disagree with Scripture. The fault lies with your understanding, not Christ’s Church or His Scriptures.
Again, what the Bible prohibited was worshiping idols. We don’t worship idols. We worship God. Also, I realize you’re a Protestant and therefore naturally not very knowledgeable about Christianity or its history, but you make a typical error that so many Protestant anti-Catholics make:
“Note carefully how the second commandment is not mentioned in the section labeled Idolatry.”
It is mentioned with other forms of denial of the one true God. First of all, most Protestants number the commandments differently than Catholics and Lutherans do. What most Protestants call the Second Commandment, about graven images, is part of the First Commandment for Catholics and Lutherans. If you actually look at the Catechism, which I seriously doubt that you did, you would have seen that the prohibition against worshiping graven images is in section iv of “Article 1:
THE FIRST COMMANDMENT” which begins at paragraph 2084. Section iv begins at 2129-2032. The whole section is about the First Commandment and it discusses a number of forms of denial of the one true God. Idolatry is one of them, but not the only one.
And none of this changes that fact that Protestant anti-Catholics are hypocrites.
“Christ is the ONE mediator between us and God the Father.”
So you never ask anyone to pray for you? I bet you do. Does the fact that you asked someone to do that mean he isn’t working through Christ? Nope. Christ shares His offices with His people - such as the office of judge for the saints will judge fallen angels. Our God is a generous God.
“There are no Scripture verses which instruct us to pray to dead people and ask them to pray for us.”
There is no verse that says all truths are in Scripture either. Show me the verse that says Matthew wrote a Gospel. Show me where in that Gospel it says that the Gospel is inspired. Can you?
“There are no Scripture verses which afford Mary any unique intercessory position in relation to Jesus Christ.”
I would say there is - the wedding of Cana, but in any case your opinion is irrelevant.
“There are multiple verses which tell us that Christ is the ONE mediator between God and man.”
I don’t disagree with any of them. Christ shares His office with His brothers and sisters who call upon the Father as Abba. Hence you can pray for someone and so can I. Our God is a generous God.
Here’s the quote from the Vatican, following my comments.
2130, “Neverthless”, points out objects that were specific to ancient Israel through direct revelation of God. There’s no direct revelation from God concerning statues of Mary or Jesus Christ.
2131 - the RC Church declares that there is a new “economy” of images. Now really, how ridiculous a statement is that, with zero Scriptural support. They simply decided that hey, since Christ became incarnate - we can now make pictures and statues of him ! And we are NOT worshipping the image. It’s an image of Christ - (now I’m all confused, because Christ IS due worship) - but we are not going to worship the “image”.
2132 clears it all up for the lost sheeple - comforting them right off the bat that they are ok on the 1st/2nd commandment. No need to worry. “the honor rendered to an image passes to its prototype,” - Wow, that was clever wording. So it is “honor”, not “worship”. And our ... “honor” of this idol.. er... image.. .... ok.... it “passes through” ( I don’t think there is a theological term “passes through” ) to the objects “prototype”. So if we honor a “statue of Jesus Christ”, the “honor” we “honor” it with “passes through” to Jesus Christ himself. Whew ! That was some explanation. If we “honor” a statue of Mary, we are just having our “honor” of her statue “pass through” to Mary. We are honoring Mary. And we can bank on it being true even if you can’t find that “honor passing through” in a Bible verse.
This is amazing in it’s audacity, word games, and lack of Scriptural support.
* IV. “YOU SHALL NOT MAKE FOR YOURSELF A GRAVEN IMAGE . . .”
2129 The divine injunction included the prohibition of every representation of God by the hand of man. Deuteronomy explains: “Since you saw no form on the day that the Lord spoke to you at Horeb out of the midst of the fire, beware lest you act corruptly by making a graven image for yourselves, in the form of any figure. . . . “66 It is the absolutely transcendent God who revealed himself to Israel. “He is the all,” but at the same time “he is greater than all his works.”67 He is “the author of beauty.”68
2130 Nevertheless, already in the Old Testament, God ordained or permitted the making of images that pointed symbolically toward salvation by the incarnate Word: so it was with the bronze serpent, the ark of the covenant, and the cherubim.69
2131 Basing itself on the mystery of the incarnate Word, the seventh ecumenical council at Nicaea (787) justified against the iconoclasts the veneration of icons - of Christ, but also of the Mother of God, the angels, and all the saints. By becoming incarnate, the Son of God introduced a new “economy” of images.
2132 The Christian veneration of images is not contrary to the first commandment which proscribes idols. Indeed, “the honor rendered to an image passes to its prototype,” and “whoever venerates an image venerates the person portrayed in it.”70 The honor paid to sacred images is a “respectful veneration,” not the adoration due to God alone:
Religious worship is not directed to images in themselves, considered as mere things, but under their distinctive aspect as images leading us on to God incarnate. The movement toward the image does not terminate in it as image, but tends toward that whose image it is.71
There are no anathemas against you. There were anathemas against Luther etc. but not for those centuries later like yourself.
“We pray directly to God in the name of Jesus Christ, as our mediator.”
So do we.
“Christ does not share his role as mediator; we can not pray to God in any name other than Jesus’ name.”
If He doesn’t share His role, then you can’t pray for anyone.
“Yes, but people who are alive. I pray for others, who are alive, not the dead, for whom prayers are too late.”
Saints are alive in Christ whether their bodies are alive or not.
We don’t worship idols. Case closed. You can post all the assertions you want, but none of them will change the fact that we don’t worship idols.
From a quick search I found this:
CANON IX. If any one shall say, that by faith alone the impious is justified.....
The 'if anyone' part seems to include a lot more folks than just Luther. I am certainly no expert on this subject and perhaps the Catholic church has limited the anathema in some official document. I just haven't heard of it.
So you’re proving that RC doctrine does not include idolatry because you assert that RC doctrine does not include idolatry.
Case closed ?
Could we be at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_nauseam ?
“I am alive, not dead.”
The saints are alive in Christ. God is the God of the living, not the dead. Mark 12:27
“So youre proving that RC doctrine does not include idolatry because you assert that RC doctrine does not include idolatry.”
No, I am simply stating an undeniable fact: The Catholic has never and will never approve of idolatry. The Catholic Church denounces idolatry.
Yes, it is.
“I’m not disputing that.”
That’s exactly what you’re disputing.
The saints are alive in Christ, Vlad, they just can’t “hook you up” in heaven because they have “pull”.
“The saints are alive in Christ, Vlad, they just cant hook you up in heaven because they have pull.”
Christ has “pull”. He shares it.
Not according to the Bible.
“Not according to the Bible.”
Nowhere in the Bible doe sit say there has to be. Sola scriptura is a Protestant heresy. It is neither taught by scripture nor believed by orthodox Christians.
Why do you bother with the Bible at all ?
Deuteronomy 4:2 “Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.”
“5 Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.
6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.”
Revelation 22:18 “For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:”
To add teachings that are not in the Bible and require Christians to believe them implies that the Word of God is insufficient, that man knows better than God, which is nonsense.
“So using the Bible as the basis of Christian doctrine is heresy ?”
Imposing an unbiblical hermenteutic on the Bible - sola scriptura - is heresy.
“But those “heretical” Reformed Protestants don’t have known Mafia bosses and politicians who consistently vote in favor of abortion accepted as members of their Congregations.”
Clearly you’re unfamiliar with the history of Protestant Europe.
“And the Roman Church does. Hmmm.”
I feel sorry for you. I judge the falsity of Protestantism by the falsity of its doctrines. You judge Catholicism by those who reject it. Which is the more sound method?
“I can see why the Roman Church would want to distance itself from the Bible, and replace it with its own “extensions, enhancements and revisions”, like a Christianity version 2.0.”
I can see why Protestant anti-Catholics always have to resort to lying. They have to make things up out of thin air because their doctrines are false and they’re usually to stupid to even hold a logical debate about them. Hence, they lie. Lying is a necessity for them - just as John Henry Newman said it was.
“Idolatry isn’t heresy if we call it “honoring an image” with the honor “passing through” to the “prototype” of the image.”
If it isn’t idolatry, then it isn’t idolatry no matter what you call it.
“As long as there are enough Mafia dons in the membership, they will prevent all the statues from being desecrated, and all will be right with the world.”
So what Mafia members protect Protestant statues from being desecrated?
Many Protestant anti-Catholics are proof that government education helps make people stupid.