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Christian leaders who uphold Genesis
Creation Ministries International ^ | 8-5-14 | Don Batten

Posted on 08/07/2014 9:00:46 AM PDT by fishtank

Christian leaders who uphold Genesis

Modern-era theologians and prominent church leaders from around the world affirm biblical creation (historical Genesis)

by Don Batten

The modern creation movement is mostly driven by those with primarily scientific qualifications. Some of a theological bent argue that we scientists don’t understand the ‘genre’ of Genesis (i.e. we are theological ignoramuses) and that Genesis is not meant to be understood as history. In part answer to this, I have listed here just some of those with theological qualifications who have taken a public stand for understanding Genesis as straightforward history, just as we scientists do. Those listed represent a wide spectrum, from pastors and evangelists to professors of church history, theology, and Hebrew, and from various church affiliations.

(Note: this list is not meant to be exhaustive. So, the absence of names of staff from a given theological institution should not be read as meaning that there are none at that institution. Also, we will update this article periodically with additional names.)

(In alphabetical order)

Randy Alcorn, MA in Biblical Studies, author of Heaven, and president of Eternal Perspective Ministries. He became a biblical creationist because “the straightforward reading of the text seemed to me to say it’s a young earth.” He also believes that the problem of evil “cannot be properly understood without accepting Creation, the Fall, and Redemption as real history.”

(Excerpt) Read more at creation.com ...


TOPICS: Evangelical Christian; General Discusssion; Ministry/Outreach; Religion & Culture
KEYWORDS: creation; leaders
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Dr Albert Mohler, President of the Southern Baptist Seminary, Kentucky, supports the historicity of Genesis.

1 posted on 08/07/2014 9:00:46 AM PDT by fishtank
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To: fishtank

From the article:

“Conclusion

All those mentioned above are ‘evangelical’ scholars; those who believe that the Bible is the inerrant Word of God. To them we might add the testimony of non-evangelical experts in Hebrew, such as Oxford University’s Professor James Barr, who clearly stated that the intention of the author(s) of Genesis 1–11 meant what was written to be understood as history (six literal days of creation, global Flood of Noah, a chronology of the world from the beginning). Other professors at leading secular universities agree with Professor Barr.

It is clear how Genesis is meant to be understood; as history (a record of events that really happened in time and space). It is also clear that it has been understood that way almost universally until modern times.”


2 posted on 08/07/2014 9:01:34 AM PDT by fishtank (The denial of original sin is the root of liberalism.)
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To: fishtank
"Christian leaders who uphold Genesis"

I believe you would have to include Jesus himself in that list as he pointed to the first two chapters of Genesis as authority for his teaching on marriage.

3 posted on 08/07/2014 9:05:03 AM PDT by circlecity
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To: circlecity

You got that right!

THanks much!


4 posted on 08/07/2014 9:07:24 AM PDT by fishtank (The denial of original sin is the root of liberalism.)
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To: fishtank

The God who says one thing so plainly, but meant something else, something that could only be found out much later than its writing, is a cruel god. For Him to say “evening and morning were the second day” and really mean something else, and we wouldn’t know what it meant until atheist scientists discovered carbon dating, would make Him a lying god. No better than Zeus, Athene, Apollo, Moloch, and Ashtaroth.

In addition to that. If that god used death and suffering as a means for perfecting his creation, I would want nothing to do with him. That’s not my God. He made all things, and made them good. He did it in 6 days with only His speech.


5 posted on 08/07/2014 9:11:09 AM PDT by demshateGod (The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.)
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To: fishtank

Like to know the Christian leaders who don’t.


6 posted on 08/07/2014 9:23:51 AM PDT by AU72
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To: demshateGod

Amen.


7 posted on 08/07/2014 9:29:48 AM PDT by fishtank (The denial of original sin is the root of liberalism.)
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To: fishtank

Insisting that the world was created in 6 days shows an unwillingness to think for oneself.


8 posted on 08/07/2014 9:34:48 AM PDT by I want the USA back (Media: completely irresponsible. Complicit in the destruction of this country.)
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To: I want the USA back

“Insisting that the world was created in 6 days shows an unwillingness to think for oneself.”

Because of course a human would know more than the God who created it...


9 posted on 08/07/2014 9:42:03 AM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion ( "I didn't leave the Central Oligarchy Party. It left me." - Ronaldus Maximus)
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To: I want the USA back

Insisting that the world was created in 6 days shows an unwillingness to think for oneself.


You got that right and what makes me wonder if they are really serious is that they do not go to the Bible and point out where it says literal days and they ignore where it says these are the generations in which the earth was made.

But what they do is quote some one who has wrote a book and lives in a pint house from its proceedings, or others who have became wealthy from preaching what they call the word of God.

And they will say that if it is not the way they believe that it would make God a liar.

I am a long way from knowing all about it but if I am wrong
about anything I would not even think about calling God a liar.


10 posted on 08/07/2014 10:28:01 AM PDT by ravenwolf (s)
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To: I want the USA back

Please get back with me when you figure out how to create eternal life.


11 posted on 08/07/2014 10:38:57 AM PDT by fishtank (The denial of original sin is the root of liberalism.)
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To: I want the USA back

The real clincher to me is that the 6 days has to be literal, but the “this is my body” is only meant as a figure of speech.

If I were a betting man, I would wager that the words given to a roving band of illiterate tribesmen to be written later would be the ones most likely to not be completely literal. The ones spoken by the Good Lord Himself directly to His followers who were fixing to write it all down would be most likely to be literal.

But then again, I can’t make any money on reasonable reckoning.


12 posted on 08/07/2014 10:54:55 AM PDT by cizinec ( For the Republic!)
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To: fishtank

The question is, do we have faith that God told the truth in His Word, or do we call Him a liar and believe fallen men and their interpretation of the evidence?

There’s really zero doubt about what God says in His Word about creation. “Evening and the morning” is only used with “yom” when it means a solar day. Difficult for long ages to have an evening and a morning. And when “yom” is used with ordinal numbers it is always referring to a solar day. In this case, God used both. Yet people refuse to believe. .

And it’s not as if this teaching only appears in Genesis. It’s literally throughout Scripture, including several references in Revelation:

Rev 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Rev 10:6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:

Rev 14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

Faith is the key, and calling God a liar is not being faithful:

Heb 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

1Ti 6:20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:
1Ti 6:21 Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen. The first to Timothy was written from Laodicea, which is the chiefest city of Phrygia Pacatiana.

Evolution, when the onion is peeled all the way back, is just repackaged paganism, a belief in spontaneous generation that Pasteur refuted a long time ago with the Law of Biogenesis, that life begets life. Life is simply too complex to have sprung at random from lifeless chemicals. I know they’ve tried to do so for quite a while now, and haven’t even come close to producing a single protein from random processes, much less the stupendous complexity of the most “simple” single-celled organism.


13 posted on 08/07/2014 11:02:24 AM PDT by afsnco
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To: ravenwolf; I want the USA back
You got that right and what makes me wonder if they are really serious is that they do not go to the Bible and point out where it says literal days and they ignore where it says these are the generations in which the earth was made.... I am a long way from knowing all about it but if I am wrong about anything I would not even think about calling God a liar.

Seems you have a problem with what you say some men write, but do you have a problem with what God writes, Himself?

Would you believe it if God wrote that He created all in 6 days if He wrote that statement with his own finger?

Exodus 31:17-18 New International Version (NIV)

"17 It will be a sign between me and the Israelites forever, for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day he rested and was refreshed.’”

"18 When the Lord finished speaking to Moses on Mount Sinai, he gave him the two tablets of the covenant law, the tablets of stone inscribed by the finger of God."

Reread the 4th Commandment again of the 10 Commandments described here and in Exodus 20:8-11

Exodus 20:8-11 “Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy."

So I'll ask you again: Do you take God at His Word -- particularly when He makes the effort to write it, Himself?

FReegards!

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14 posted on 08/07/2014 11:54:29 AM PDT by Agamemnon (Darwinism is the glue that holds liberalism together)
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To: afsnco
There’s really zero doubt about what God says in His Word about creation. “Evening and the morning” is only used with “yom” when it means a solar day. Difficult for long ages to have an evening and a morning. And when “yom” is used with ordinal numbers it is always referring to a solar day.

Interesting you say a solar day. When was the "sol" created again? Day 4?

All of you, be very very careful assuming you got this deeply mysterious text buttoned down and sewn up in a nice neat package.

The rabbis forbade Torah students to even study this part of Genesis until they got to a certain level. And when St. Augustine--one of the greatest theologians Christianity has ever produced--wrote his "On the Literal Interpretation of Genesis" in the 400s he had to apologize that he was going to ask more questions than he answered. You see him wrestle with different interpretations and, sometimes, honestly admit he wasn't sure which was correct.

And speaking of Augustine, anyone who is convinced that an allegorical or other reading of the Genesis day is simply not possible ought to go back and read his work, which was written more than a thousand years before evolution was even on the radar.

Don't go offering your personal interpretations as "God's Word" and thereby bring the whole of Sacred Scriptures into disrepute when your interpretation is subsequently proven wrong (and that's something else I learned from Augustine).

15 posted on 08/07/2014 12:42:17 PM PDT by Claud
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To: fishtank

If one accepts relativity, which to deny would require the denial of the atom bomb, then it is possible to view ~15 billion years as 6000.

However, in all that I understand about geology, math and physics, the longer time frame is more consistent with observation.


16 posted on 08/07/2014 1:03:23 PM PDT by onedoug
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To: afsnco
Evolution, when the onion is peeled all the way back, is just repackaged paganism, a belief in spontaneous generation that Pasteur refuted a long time ago with the Law of Biogenesis, that life begets life.

Even the most traditional reading of Genesis 1 implies that abiogenesis happened at least twice. Read it again.

Verse 11: "Let the earth bring forth the green herb"
verse 20 "Let the waters bring forth the creeping creature having life".

From earth comes living plants. From water comes the animals.

If abiogenesis were always impossible, then the logical consequence would be that life always existed. Which we know Scripturally and scientifically to be false. Life came from non-living matter at some point.

What Pasteur (and Redi and Spallanzani) refuted is the notion that organisms like flies and bacteria continue to be generated the same way today.

But now that you brought spontaneous generation into the discussion, Augustine has a particularly intriguing digression on this subject. I'll see if I can dig it up and post it later.

17 posted on 08/07/2014 1:06:19 PM PDT by Claud
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To: Agamemnon

So I’ll ask you again: Do you take God at His Word — particularly when He makes the effort to write it, Himself?


I will ask you the same question, do you believe anything God said?

Did you read where he said these are the generations?

Genesis 2
4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens,

Also do you believe the Sabbath day is the 7th day or the first day like most Christians claim.


18 posted on 08/07/2014 2:32:31 PM PDT by ravenwolf (s)
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To: fishtank
In other news, scientists create matter out of light...

Yet Genesis is a myth.

19 posted on 08/07/2014 4:53:58 PM PDT by HarleyD ("... letters are weighty, but his .. presence is weak, and his speech of no account.")
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To: HarleyD
Amazing. Had to laugh at this in the first sentence though

A team of 20 physicists from four institutions has literally made something from nothing, creating particles of matter from ordinary light for the first time.

"literally something from nothing".

Uhh....

20 posted on 08/07/2014 6:49:41 PM PDT by Claud
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To: ravenwolf
I will ask you the same question, do you believe anything God said?

I believe all that God says and physically wrote with His own finger. Do you?

Did you read where he said these are the generations? Genesis 2 4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens,

As the Prime origin of all things created, God by definition instituted the first generation of all things.

You will notice the word "heavens" is plural and the word "they" is plural. It should be no wonder to any competent reader then that the word "generations" (תּוֹלְדוֹת) in this context is expected to be plural, as well.

Also do you believe the Sabbath day is the 7th day or the first day like most Christians claim.

Sadly, it appears that you have a penchant for distraction. Try to stay on topic.

FReegards!

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21 posted on 08/07/2014 8:28:02 PM PDT by Agamemnon (Darwinism is the glue that holds liberalism together)
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To: Agamemnon

Sadly, it appears that you have a penchant for distraction. Try to stay on topic.


It is the topic you started, if any one got off it was you.


22 posted on 08/07/2014 8:36:08 PM PDT by ravenwolf (s)
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To: ravenwolf
It is the topic you started, if any one got off it was you.

Actually, it is you who has allowed himself to be distracted under the guise of what he peddles as his rejection of words of men in order to excuse himself for rejecting what God has very clearly and physically written in His Law and with His own finger.

You set up a false choice between Genesis 2:4 and Exodus 31:18 due to your apparent lack of understanding of simple linguistic usage common to both English and Hebrew, and in the end you failed to affirm that he believes all of what God has said or written.

It is this last point, which, since it goes to the heart of what informs your worldview, likewise reveals for readers what is behind your attempts at distractive deflection.

FReegards!

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23 posted on 08/07/2014 9:39:02 PM PDT by Agamemnon (Darwinism is the glue that holds liberalism together)
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To: Agamemnon

Kinda hard to argue with THAT! Thanks.


24 posted on 08/07/2014 10:44:21 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: Agamemnon

In the first place I do not have much of an idea what you are talking about, maybe my fault, maybe not.

The idea of the thread was to push the belief that the world was created in six literal days and if you believe that it is fine with me.

I don`t know how long it took but I see generations as more than six days


25 posted on 08/07/2014 11:04:59 PM PDT by ravenwolf (s)
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To: ravenwolf; boatbums; fishtank; metmom
You wrote this earlier: I am a long way from knowing all about it but if I am wrong about anything I would not even think about calling God a liar.

And now you wrote this:

I don`t know how long it took but I see generations as more than six days.

If you believe as the Bible describes, that God, Himself inscribed the 10 Commandments and obviously did so with his precisely chosen words, you should know full well how long it took to for Him create. He tells you straight forwardly and without minced words.

It is up to you to believe Him. When man chooses his own prideful perspective, as opposed to the straight forward reading of the clearest set of Laws ever written, he willingly blinds himself to God's clear truth.

One in fact calls God a liar if one does not believe Him or what He wrote.

God's creation was the first generation of many things which reproduce generationally. Speaking as a biologist, we routinely refer to generations of plants, animals, human beings, and even bacteria.

The word generations cannot be limited to the context of only generations of human beings. There were no generations of anything -- human, plant, or animal before there was "In the Beginning...."

Some theologians ask: Must we insist that God created in 24 hour periods when the sun was not created 'til the 4th day?

My answer: If you say you believe what God wrote you do. Full stop.

Still for those who require more --there is the Hebrew word, יוֹם pronounced “yom.” The word “yom” as it appears in Scripture over 1400 times means the same thing – a 24-hour day.

The plural form of this word as God inscribes it in the 10 Commandments in Exodus 20:11 is יָמִים֩ pronounced, "yamin." Preceded by the number 6 in Hebrew it can only mean 6 literal days.

God was there. You'd expect that He knows wouldn't you? He didn't mince any other words in the 10 Commandments -- he wrote them to be understood by man concisely. Why would anyone credibly wonder what God meant by the word "yom" in the 10 Commandments, especially when the creation week is used as the singular reference point for understanding what is meant by the term "week" everywhere else?

God’s first creation was time itself – “In the beginning ….” The materialist, coincidentally, as the presumed master of his destiny must likewise create his own “time” to allow for enough fungible time as he determines he needs to invent to make his premise fit his worldview.

It most often results in circular reasoning that goes something like this: “This bone is 1MM years old.” Really? How do you know? “Well, the strata I found it in is 1 MM years old” OK, so how do you know the strata is 1 MM years old? “Well just look at the bone I found in it! The bone is 1MM years old! Why do I seem to always have to repeat myself to the “lesser evolved”? Aren’t you paying attention? Didn’t you hear me the first time?” **sigh**

God created the Sun moon and stars on the 4th day and set them in place as a clock to mark the time interval that He had already defined for a day on Day 1 and continued to define for Day 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7, as He has defined every other day thereafter.

Genesis 1:14:

And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

In Hebrew Scripture every day recorded sequentially as an ordinal number (i.e., first, second, third, etc.) invariably refers to a 24-hour day. It’s the same word when used in its same context.

So yes, one must insist on the 24-hour day time interval, unless one chooses to harbor a spirit of disbelief and with it an intent to read the history recorded in Genesis in other than a straightforward fashion.

To not read the Creation account in a straight-forward fashion injects confusion where there is none.

But for sake of discussion let me play Devil’s advocate and suppose that one has the freedom to define the days of Genesis any way they’d like.

If the time frame for “day” in Genesis was different than 24 hours - say 1000 years or even 1 million years, explain how it is that flowers are created on day 3, the sun presumably needed to allow them to photosynthesize their life-maintaining energy is not created until a million years later on day 4, humming birds needed to pollenate some flowers don’t show up until yet another million years later on day 5, and the insects and bats needed to pollenate still other flowers in order to reproduce don’t show up until another million years later on Day 6!

It wouldn’t matter if you speculated 1 year per day or 1000 years per day, you’d have no flowering foliage in any case!

Luther wrote:

“The days of creation were ordinary days in length. We must understand that these days were actual days (veros dies), contrary to the opinion of the Holy Fathers. Whenever we observe that the opinions of the Fathers disagree with Scripture, we reverently bear with them and acknowledge them to be our elders. Nevertheless, we do not depart from the authority of Scripture for their sake.” (Martin Luther as cited in E. Plass, What Martin Luther Says: A Practical In-Home Anthology for the Active Christian, Concordia Publishing House, St. Louis, Missouri, (1991), 1523.)

So I'll ask you again: "I believe all that God says and physically wrote with His own finger. Do you?"

FReegards!

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26 posted on 08/08/2014 2:12:30 PM PDT by Agamemnon (Darwinism is the glue that holds liberalism together)
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To: Agamemnon

2 Peter 3:8 I believe God made it all, but I also believe there is perspective in the Word that shows.... time is to God somewhat different to our understanding.


27 posted on 08/08/2014 2:19:25 PM PDT by Kackikat (ELECTED officials took an OATH...Time to honor it....be a Patriot.)
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To: Agamemnon
Still for those who require more --there is the Hebrew word, יוֹם pronounced “yom.” The word “yom” as it appears in Scripture over 1400 times means the same thing – a 24-hour day. ------------------------------------------------ Yes, I do require a lot more than any ones word that a 24 hour day is the only meaning of Yom which in this case is the only reason to believe in a young earth. But how many meanings does Yom have in time? some believe it can mean anything from part of a day to forever, other meanings are time, age, ago. So the young earth people will have to do much better than what you are doing to convince me that God made the earth in 6 literal days. Also the bible tells us that in the beginning God created heaven and earth and the earth was with out form and void. He obviously created the Heavens and earth before the 6 days even began. Maybe you need to go back to the study board.
28 posted on 08/08/2014 4:36:04 PM PDT by ravenwolf (s)
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To: Kackikat
2 Peter 3:8 I believe God made it all, but I also believe there is perspective in the Word that shows.... time is to God somewhat different to our understanding.

Time is one of God's creations. In fact the first thing God created was time. "In the beginning...." The Creator is not defined by His Creation, rather the Creation is defined by the Creator.

He defined a time interval for "day" for His Creation before He even created the sun, moon, and stars. He defines the movement of the heavenly bodies, because He is Lord over all.

He created these heavenly bodies in part to mark the advance of defined time intervals for us. Genesis 1 states as much.

Biblical scholars who read with a spirit of intellectual honesty look at a whole passage and they do so in its context. Too often those who experience difficulty with this portion of Scripture fail to quote the rest of the passage that says “… and a thousand years as a day.”

As Ken Ham from Answers in Genesis aptly discusses:

“If people use Scripture to try to justify that the days of creation are long periods of time, they usually quote passages such as 2 Peter 3:8, “. . . one day is with the Lord as a thousand years . . .“. Because of this, they think the days could be a thousand years, or perhaps even millions of years. However, if you look at the rest of the verse, it says, “. . . and a thousand years as one day“. This cancels out their argument! The context of this passage concerns the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. This particular verse is telling people that with God, waiting a day is like waiting a thousand years, and waiting a thousand years is like waiting a day because God is outside of time—He is not limited by natural processes and time. This has absolutely nothing to do with defining the days of creation. Besides, the word “day” already exists and has been defined, which is why in 2 Peter it can be compared to a thousand years. There is no reference in this passage to the days of creation.”

Back to my point about the definition of days:

If the time frame for “day” in Genesis was different than 24 hours - say 1000 years or even 1 million years, explain how it is that flowers are created on day 3, the sun presumably needed to allow them to photosynthesize their life-maintaining energy is not created until a million years later on day 4, humming birds needed to pollenate some flowers don’t show up until yet another million years later on day 5, and the insects and bats needed to pollenate still other flowers in order to reproduce don’t show up until another million years later on Day 6!

It wouldn’t matter if you speculated 1 year per day or 1000 years per day, you’d have no flowering foliage in any case!

FReegards!

 photo million-vet-march.jpg

29 posted on 08/08/2014 5:48:55 PM PDT by Agamemnon (Darwinism is the glue that holds liberalism together)
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To: ravenwolf; boatbums; fishtank; metmom
Yes, I do require a lot more than any ones word that a 24 hour day is the only meaning of Yom which in this case is the only reason to believe in a young earth. But how many meanings does Yom have in time? some believe it can mean anything from part of a day to forever, other meanings are time, age, ago.

You are asking the wrong question. It is not how many meanings does "Yom" have in time, but rather how many meanings does the word "Yom" have taken in the context of Scripture in which it appears? Untethered to context, someone can take just about any word out of context and make it say whatever one wants it to say.

There are ~1400 examples in Scripture where "Yom," as taken in context can only mean a 24-hour day. In Hebrew as in English, referring to the first, second, third day, etc. and further defining this interval as "evening and morning" can only mean a 24-hour day, since having established the sun, moon, and stars on the 4th day as "time keepers," --- that we use to this very day --- contextually it can mean nothing other than a 24-hour day.

And this is where it simply becomes a matter of common sense

The usage of the word for day in 4th Commandment should remove all questions, since the context involves the definition of the Sabbath day in the context of a common week's time span. Very simple.

Is the God you worship incapable of creating the entirety of the universe in 6 days?

Do you harbor confusion about the meaning of any of the other 9 of God's hand-inscribed 10 Commandments?

My initial question to you was: "Would you believe it if God wrote that He created all in 6 days if He wrote that statement with his own finger?"

It appears that you are saying, no.

Still, you did say, "I am a long way from knowing all about it but if I am wrong about anything I would not even think about calling God a liar."

But yet, by not believing what His finger wrote in the 10 Commandments, whether you want to admit it or not, you are in fact making God out to be a liar.

You might want to re-consider your position.

FReegards!

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30 posted on 08/08/2014 8:18:37 PM PDT by Agamemnon (Darwinism is the glue that holds liberalism together)
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To: ravenwolf; Agamemnon
Yes, I do require a lot more than any ones word that a 24 hour day is the only meaning of Yom which in this case is the only reason to believe in a young earth. But how many meanings does Yom have in time? some believe it can mean anything from part of a day to forever, other meanings are time, age, ago. So the young earth people will have to do much better than what you are doing to convince me that God made the earth in 6 literal days. Also the bible tells us that in the beginning God created heaven and earth and the earth was with out form and void. He obviously created the Heavens and earth before the 6 days even began. Maybe you need to go back to the study board.

It isn't really the job of "young earth people" to convince you, or anyone, that what God said in His word is what He intended us to know. Where I think some people get off track is by imagining that the created world must match our own understanding instead of believing what God said plainly and clearly. To label people as "young earth" assumes that we blithely skip over the scientific evidence that "proves" the age of the earth is more than six or seven thousand years old. Instead, there are numerous explanations that demonstrate the universe was created out of nothing - ex nihilo - and that it was created having an apparent age. Adam was created fully formed as a grown man and Eve a grown woman. It is perfectly within the power of Almighty God to do so. This is why when He says "evening and morning", He means a twenty-four hour literal day - He had no reason to NOT reveal the truth about what He did and when He did it. He said, and Jesus reiterated, that He created the world in six days. I choose to believe Him.

The danger in attributing everything as potentially allegorical is that it negates the literal as the primary sense with allegory as secondary. What I find is that God does a pretty good job of helping us know when and which is the sense of revealed truth and we don't need to worry that we are missing something. The Holy Spirit is who teaches us the truth and opens our eyes to the lessons God desires we know. Agamemnon did a pretty good job of explaining how in the creation story God meant a literal day as the organisms were dependent on each other to regenerate and their beginnings happened closely to each other, not separated by thousands or millions of years. It's no mystery that plant life requires carbon dioxide from carbon life forms and give off oxygen that carbon-based life forms require to survive. Their simultaneous creation is unmistakable.

31 posted on 08/08/2014 8:46:18 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: Agamemnon

You are asking the wrong question. It is not how many meanings does “Yom” have in time, but rather how many meanings does the word “Yom” have taken in the context of Scripture in which it appears? Untethered to context, someone can take just about any word out of context and make it say whatever one wants it to say.


You put it in the context you think it should be in and that’s what I will do.

Genesis 2

4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens,

5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.

6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.

7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Nothing could be plainer, the days were generations in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens,

God had not caused it to rain, meaning it was meant to be a natural growth, peach trees did not spring up over night.

And this is where it simply becomes a matter of common sense
>>>>>
Year, right.

you are in fact making God out to be a liar.>>>>>

No, I said I would not call God a liar if i was wrong, not that I know anything about it but I sure don`t see it your way.


32 posted on 08/08/2014 10:40:10 PM PDT by ravenwolf (s)
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To: boatbums

It isn’t really the job of “young earth people” to convince you, or anyone, that what God said in His word is what He intended us to know.


I am not trying to sell anything I just agreed with some one who disagreed with the thread.

But I also do not buy anything that does not sound right to me.

And I see nothing at all that prove a literal six days, in fact I see just the opposite.


To label people as “young earth” assumes that we blithely skip over the scientific evidence that “proves” the age of the earth is more than six or seven thousand years old.

I don`t believe the label was mine, I believe it was in the thread other wise I would not have even known what it was called.


33 posted on 08/08/2014 10:58:39 PM PDT by ravenwolf (s)
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To: ravenwolf; Agamemnon
You put it in the context you think it should be in and that’s what I will do.

Genesis 2
4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens...

Nothing could be plainer, the days were generations in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens,

Genesis 2:4 is speaking of what was just said in chapter 1. Gill's commentary says:

    These are the generations of the heavens and the earth, when they were created,.... That is, the above account, delivered in the preceding chapter, is a history of the production of the heavens and earth, and of all things in them; the creation of them being a kind of generation, and the day of their creation a sort of birthday; see Genesis 5:1. In the day that the Lord God made the earth, and the heavens; meaning not any particular day, not the first day, in which the heavens and the earth were created; but referring to the whole time of the six days, in which everything in them, and relating to them, were made.

The word "generations" is really giving an account of, or the history. Other times, in context, it does not describe the antecedents, but the consequents, of either thing or Person. (from Pulpit Commentary). Remember, chapter and verse separations were added by translators. So, rather than verse 5 concerning the vegetation on the earth opening up the idea that you are suggesting of a long period of time between the acts of creation, it is really summarizing what happened from the start.

My contention, and that of Agamemnon, is that God used the word that meant an actual day (evening and morning) and, since we weren't there to observe, we must believe what God said He did and not try to cause doubt about the literal words He used. I believe that had everything been created over eons God would have said so and since He didn't - choosing to use the word for a literal 24 hour day - we accept what He DID say. That it was repeated numerous times throughout both testaments of the Bible spoken in Hebrew and Greek - and confirmed by Jesus - is ample evidence it was to be taken by faith. It doesn't matter if godless "scientists" come along later and mock that faith, God will hold them in derision and, though they are professing to be wise, they become fools. I'll trust God.

34 posted on 08/09/2014 12:02:28 AM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: boatbums; ravenwolf
Genesis 2:4 is speaking of what was just said in chapter 1.

You are absolutely correct, boatbums.

This is a common feature in traditional Jewish narratives and in fact it is something we have often seen in the entertainment world, as influenced by entertainment pioneers Jack Warner Louis Mayer, Samuel Goldwyn, Sid Sheldon, etc. -- who themselves all happened to be Jewish.

Story line installments that proceed from week to week in a television series often provide the recap of the action from the week before to lay the ground work for the continuing story line in the present episode.

The recap of the highlights from the prior series installment is never intended to be misunderstood as a second, duplicate intervening mini-story, but is to be viewed as a re-orienting restatement of prior action.

Again, this is just applying more common sense than some are prepared to do, because some are just too busy trying to contort Scripture to say what it doesn't to support an illogical if not prideful human perspective, rather than taking at His Word what God has written -- and with His own Hand no less!

FReegards!

 photo million-vet-march.jpg

35 posted on 08/09/2014 7:35:10 AM PDT by Agamemnon (Darwinism is the glue that holds liberalism together)
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To: boatbums

Genesis 2:4 is speaking of what was just said in chapter 1. Gill’s commentary says:

That is, the above account, delivered in the preceding chapter, is a history of the production of the heavens and earth,


I can except the idea that it may be referring to chapter 1
but I do not except some one trying to explain away generations in order to make it literal days in place of what is probably thousands of years.


I believe that had everything been created over eons God would have said so and since He didn’t - choosing to use the word for a literal 24 hour day - we accept what He DID say.

I also believe what God literally said

2 Peter 3:8
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Did Peter believe in the six literal day creation?

A day to God is a period of time, we don`t know what that time is but I could insist that the days were thousand year days and it would fit scripture in my view much better than the literal 24 hour day.

Same with generations,which is what he said ,a day to God could be generations to us .

You and Agamemnon seem to be hung up on the idea that there would be no real Sabbath ( 7th day ) if the 6 days of creation were not literal 24 hour days.

Don`t you think God can work it out in his own way?


It doesn’t matter if godless “scientists” come along later and mock that faith, God will hold them in derision and, though they are professing to be wise, they become fools. I’ll trust God.

I don`t know if this was meant to be a slur or not, but for your information I know very little about science and as far as evolutionary science go if they get anything right it would be just coincidence.

I even believe the so called fossil fuel theory is bogus.

I trust the evolutionary scientists about as far as I trust professional religion.

I believe what I believe by reading Gods word and using common sense in the understanding.

My trust is in God.


36 posted on 08/09/2014 8:20:30 AM PDT by ravenwolf (s)
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To: ravenwolf; Agamemnon
I can except the idea that it may be referring to chapter 1 but I do not except some one trying to explain away generations in order to make it literal days in place of what is probably thousands of years.

What is standing in the way of accepting literal days? Is God not able to create in the way He said he did? Can you explain why the Scriptures use the word for "day" in this context if it actually meant something different? It isn't "explaining away" to interpret words in the context of how they were used, their alternate meanings in translation and how they fit in with other Scripture passages.

I don`t know if this was meant to be a slur or not, but for your information I know very little about science and as far as evolutionary science go if they get anything right it would be just coincidence. I even believe the so called fossil fuel theory is bogus. I trust the evolutionary scientists about as far as I trust professional religion. I believe what I believe by reading Gods word and using common sense in the understanding. My trust is in God.

That was certainly no slur aimed at you. Instead, it shows that the wisdom of man - even those who lay claim to exceptional intelligence - is foolishness with God, so, we cannot base what we believe solely on the words of people who do not have any faith in the true God. So-called experts on biology, evolution and natural law have had to eat crow more than a few times as their theories have been uprooted. My only caution is in allowing yourself to be influenced away from faith in God's word by those who would mock or bully us for believing the Bible.

I hope you have a blessed weekend.

37 posted on 08/09/2014 7:23:44 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: ravenwolf; boatbums
I do not except some one trying to explain away generations in order to make it literal days in place of what is probably thousands of years.

Do you realize that some bacteria experience generations in mere hours, and some insects have generations of mere days? Genesis records the first generations of all things. Shouldn't be too hard to understand why Genesis 2:4 uses the term "generations" in plural.

Did Peter believe in the six literal day creation? A day to God is a period of time, we don`t know what that time is but I could insist that the days were thousand year days and it would fit scripture in my view much better than the literal 24 hour day. Same with generations, which is what he said ,a day to God could be generations to us . You and Agamemnon seem to be hung up on the idea that there would be no real Sabbath ( 7th day ) if the 6 days of creation were not literal 24 hour days. Don`t you think God can work it out in his own way?

I addressed this very point to another poster up thread. Perhaps you missed it.

Time is one of God's creations. In fact the first thing God created was time. "In the beginning...." The Creator is not defined by His Creation, rather the Creation is defined by the Creator.

He defined a time interval for "day" for His Creation before He even created the sun, moon, and stars. He defines the movement of the heavenly bodies, because He is Lord over all.

He created these heavenly bodies in part to mark the advance of defined time intervals for us. Genesis 1 states as much.

Biblical scholars who read with a spirit of intellectual honesty look at a whole passage and they do so in its context. Too often those who experience difficulty with this portion of Scripture fail to quote the rest of the passage that says “… and a thousand years as a day.”

As Ken Ham from Answers in Genesis aptly discusses:

“If people use Scripture to try to justify that the days of creation are long periods of time, they usually quote passages such as 2 Peter 3:8, “. . . one day is with the Lord as a thousand years . . .“. Because of this, they think the days could be a thousand years, or perhaps even millions of years. However, if you look at the rest of the verse, it says, “. . . and a thousand years as one day“. This cancels out their argument! The context of this passage concerns the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. This particular verse is telling people that with God, waiting a day is like waiting a thousand years, and waiting a thousand years is like waiting a day because God is outside of time—He is not limited by natural processes and time. This has absolutely nothing to do with defining the days of creation. Besides, the word “day” already exists and has been defined, which is why in 2 Peter it can be compared to a thousand years. There is no reference in this passage to the days of creation.”

Back to my point about the definition of days:

If the time frame for “day” in Genesis was different than 24 hours - say 1000 years or even 1 million years, explain how it is that flowers are created on day 3, the sun presumably needed to allow them to photosynthesize their life-maintaining energy is not created until a million years later on day 4, humming birds needed to pollenate some flowers don’t show up until yet another million years later on day 5, and the insects and bats needed to pollenate still other flowers in order to reproduce don’t show up until another million years later on Day 6!

It wouldn’t matter if you speculated 1 year per day or 1000 years per day, you’d have no flowering foliage in any case!

FReegards!

 photo million-vet-march.jpg

38 posted on 08/09/2014 7:58:42 PM PDT by Agamemnon (Darwinism is the glue that holds liberalism together)
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To: boatbums

What is standing in the way of accepting literal days? Is God not able to create in the way He said he did? Can you explain why the Scriptures use the word for “day” in this context if it actually meant something different? It isn’t “explaining away” to interpret words in the context of how they were used, their alternate meanings in translation and how they fit in with other Scripture passages.


Ok, here it is again.

2 Peter 3:8
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Peter explained it perfect as far as I am concerned, nothing for me to even wonder about.

That was certainly no slur aimed at you


Thanks.

My only caution is in allowing yourself to be influenced away from faith in God’s word by those who would mock or bully us for believing the Bible.


They have no influence over me, if I am wrong on any thing which I have been and most likely will be it will be with out any outside influence, I can do that on my own.

I passed the seventh grade almost 65 years ago by the skin of my teeth, my teacher taught the seventh and eighth grades and was afraid if she did not pass me she might have me two more years so I made it easy on her and quit So I am anything but scientific minded.

I do not trust any one who takes tax payer money in grants, especially evolutionary scientists.

And I put preachers for hire in the same class, including those who write and sell books on the word of God.

I hope you have a blessed weekend.


Thank you very much and I hope you have the same.


39 posted on 08/09/2014 8:34:34 PM PDT by ravenwolf (s)
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To: ravenwolf; Agamemnon
Ok, here it is again. 2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. Peter explained it perfect as far as I am concerned, nothing for me to even wonder about.

To add to the well stated response just up thread from Agamemnon, let me add that the passage in Peter's second epistle is about GOD'S perception of time - not ours. Because He is outside of time, a thousand years, a million years, even, are no different than a single day. However, He set up time for our benefit, not His own. He is who established the sun and the moon and the stars to serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years (Gen. 1:15). God doesn't need time, WE do. That, I believe, is what Peter's passage is saying.

40 posted on 08/09/2014 10:26:45 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: boatbums

God doesn’t need time, WE do. That, I believe, is what Peter’s passage is saying.


That very well could be.


41 posted on 08/09/2014 10:37:00 PM PDT by ravenwolf (s)
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To: ravenwolf

That very well could be.

But I would not bet on it, these are the Generations in which God made heaven and earth, Generations, not hours, not days, most likely thousands of years.


42 posted on 08/10/2014 7:09:03 AM PDT by ravenwolf (s)
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To: ravenwolf

Or not. Seeing as God could have just as easily SAID thousands of years - and He didn’t - it’s much easier to just take God at His word and believe when He said “day”, He meant DAY.


43 posted on 08/11/2014 12:02:18 AM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: ravenwolf
But I would not bet on it, these are the Generations in which God made heaven and earth, Generations, not hours, not days, most likely thousands of years.

Study the prophetic import of the Jubilee and Grand Jubilee to find your error.

44 posted on 08/11/2014 12:16:01 AM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just socialism in a business suit.)
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To: boatbums

Or not. Seeing as God could have just as easily SAID thousands of years - and He didn’t - it’s much easier to just take God at His word and believe when He said “day”, He meant DAY.


He also could have just as easy said six days in genesis 2 but he didn’t, he said these are the generations and I believe if he had of meant days he would have said days.


45 posted on 08/11/2014 4:26:47 AM PDT by ravenwolf (s)
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To: roamer_1

Study the prophetic import of the Jubilee and Grand Jubilee to find your error.


I would say it is just as easily your error, the church teaches that every thing was created in 6 of our literal days because it says days in genesis 1 but they ignore the fact that genesis 2 dispels the notion that the days are literal.

And they even use the fourth commandment for one of their proofs but we can see what they did with it, they threw it out the door and chose another day to take the place of the one god gave us.

They strain on a gnat and swallow a camel.


46 posted on 08/11/2014 5:01:13 AM PDT by ravenwolf (s)
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To: ravenwolf
I would say it is just as easily your error,[...]

Perhaps, but I don't think so.

[...]the church teaches that every thing was created in 6 of our literal days because it says days in genesis 1 but they ignore the fact that genesis 2 dispels the notion that the days are literal.

Gen 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens, (e-Sword:KJV)

Gen 2:4 These are births of the heavens and of the earth in their being prepared, in the day of Jehovah God's making earth and heavens; (e-Sword:Young's Literal Translation)

It seems to me the passage you quote speaks to order-of-decent, the ordering of the creation.

As I said, study the Jubilees. The proof is there. It is literally one week of time.

47 posted on 08/11/2014 7:31:57 AM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just socialism in a business suit.)
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To: roamer_1

It seems to me the passage you quote speaks to order-of-decent, the ordering of the creation.


I believe Gen 1 is the ordering of the creation and Gen two is talking about the fulfilling of it.

Gen 2:1
Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.

Gods work was finished was finished but it had not become fulfilled because the trees had not grown nor was there a man to till the ground.

6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.

7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Verse one says it was finished verse 7 shows that God did some special work at a later time.

I have read about the Jubilees but have not read it but I can not see that it would add anything because we are looking at it from entirely two different angles.

2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

God does things in his time, all of our times are to correspond with Gods time not the other way around so we use 7 literal days to correspond with the seven days of Gods time.

At least that is what I believe, as I know nothing.


48 posted on 08/11/2014 8:48:03 AM PDT by ravenwolf (s)
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To: ravenwolf
I have read about the Jubilees but have not read it but I can not see that it would add anything because we are looking at it from entirely two different angles.

If one converts the history as found in the Bible into days (using the various genealogies) then convert the Grand Jubilees to days, and project them backwards toward creation, you will find an exact 7 day discrepancy... IIRC one week longer in the Jubilee than the genealogy addresses... I think that is precisely by design. The count for the Jubilees starts on the first day, in the first instant.

Gen 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.


Exo 20:1 And God spake all these words, saying, [...]
Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exo 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

My main concern is for the Sabbath - YHWH SPOKE above with great precision, and I will take him at his word. If the reason for the Sabbath is figurative, then the Sabbath itself is figurative, and the hallowing thereof is figurative, and then poof! Sunday worship. So no... YHWH meant what He said, and said what He meant (and YHWH is accurate, 100 percent) :P

God does things in his time, all of our times are to correspond with Gods time not the other way around so we use 7 literal days to correspond with the seven days of Gods time.

But it is YHWH who defined the time. HE defined the 7 literal days. That IS His 'time'. I understand your position, and I use 1/1000 in determining prophecy all the time. I used to be exactly where you are assuming a c.10k earth age. But it cannot pan out without doing damage to time sensitive parts of the prophecy, and without creating a nonsensical gap in the genealogy - which purposes to perform an exact record of time, that being extraordinarily needful in the pursuit of the prophets.

At least that is what I believe, as I know nothing.

May YHWH bless you, brother (sis?)!! An inquiring mind is how one learns! Test everything, and hold on to that which is good. : )

49 posted on 08/11/2014 10:36:07 AM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just socialism in a business suit.)
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To: roamer_1

Yes, it is sort of like reading Revelation, about the time I think I have one part figured out it brings up a problem some where else, some people are willing to just ignore those problems, I can`t.


50 posted on 08/11/2014 11:33:15 AM PDT by ravenwolf (s)
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