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Popes Protestant Friend Dies, But Push for Unity Lives
The Boston Globe ^ | 8/7/14 | Austen Ivereigh

Posted on 08/08/2014 6:24:07 PM PDT by marshmallow

The English surgeons who fought to save the life of a badly mangled motorcyclist on the morning of July 20 might have guessed he was someone unusual, since the hospital was receiving calls from Rome, from the pope himself, asking for updates.

The silver Audi that slammed into a Protestant cleric named Bishop Tony Palmer in a quiet country lane that morning, however, left little chance of his surviving, and he died after a 10-hour emergency surgery. The news stunned not just his grieving wife and young adult children, but many across the Christian world who were aware that, behind the scenes, the unlikely friendship of Palmer and Pope Francis was the catalyst of an extraordinary historic breakthrough in relations between the Catholic Church and the evangelical world.

An articulate, laid-back, jovial South African in his early fifties, with a penchant for quirky clerical clothes, Palmer didn’t look or sound much like a conventional Anglican bishop. When I first met him in May, at a coffee shop in Bath, close to where he lived with his family, he explained that he had been ordained by the Communion of Evangelical Episcopal Churches, or CEEC, whose presiding bishop is in Florida.

The CEEC, which was formed in the 1990s, is Anglican. Yet unlike the Episcopal Church in the United States, it’s not part of the Anglican Communion loyal to the Archbishop of Canterbury.

Its leaders see themselves as part of a “convergence” movement, seeking to combine evangelical Christianity with the liturgy and sacraments typical of Catholicism.

That convergence, Palmer told me, “is a precursor to full unity between the Protestant and Catholic Churches.”

Born in Britain, Palmer grew up in South Africa where he worked as a medical underwriter and met and married Emiliana, a non-practising Italian Catholic. After a sudden conversion........

(Excerpt) Read more at bostonglobe.com ...


TOPICS: Catholic; Ecumenism; Mainline Protestant; Ministry/Outreach
KEYWORDS:
At one point, when Palmer was tired of living on the frontier and wanted to become Catholic, Bergoglio advised him against conversion for the sake of the mission.

Dissuading potential converts is not something one expects to find on the CV of a future Pope, no matter how exalted the goal.

1 posted on 08/08/2014 6:24:07 PM PDT by marshmallow
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To: marshmallow

The Pope really doesn’t believe there’s anything special about this. I’ve become increasingly disturbed by his behavior.

Dissuading converts was all the rage among lefty clergy in the 1970s and 80s, and Pope Francis’ mind is still stuck in that time and that viewpoint.


2 posted on 08/08/2014 6:30:00 PM PDT by livius
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To: marshmallow

“...Palmer didn’t look or sound much like a conventional Anglican bishop.”

Cause he wasn’t one.


3 posted on 08/08/2014 6:57:31 PM PDT by vladimir998
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To: marshmallow

Those who know they must be Catholic have a grave duty to do so. Those who dissuade them commit the sin of scandal.


4 posted on 08/08/2014 7:31:52 PM PDT by Romulus
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To: Romulus

Wow that’s kinda big news. Are the Catholics going to start meeting Protestants somewhere in the middle and form a Christianity that all can live with? Or does this merging thing mean if protestants ate welcome if they obey the Pope and accept the Catholic theology


5 posted on 08/08/2014 7:40:02 PM PDT by DesertRhino (I was standing with a rifle, waiting for soviet paratroopers, but communists just ran for office.)
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To: Romulus

By the way, you know I’m just having a little fun with ya,,,,


6 posted on 08/08/2014 8:26:54 PM PDT by DesertRhino (I was standing with a rifle, waiting for soviet paratroopers, but communists just ran for office.)
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To: marshmallow; livius

Francis has made it abundantly clear (yes, CLEAR) that he doesn’t believe that one needs to be Catholic to be saved.


7 posted on 08/09/2014 5:48:28 AM PDT by piusv
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To: piusv
Francis has made it abundantly clear (yes, CLEAR) that he doesn’t believe that one needs to be Catholic to be saved.

Nice to know Pope Francis agrees with the Holy Bible scripture...

8 posted on 08/09/2014 5:55:33 AM PDT by Popman ("Resistance to Tyrants is Obedience to God" - Thomas Jefferson)
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To: Popman

Yes, he makes a great Protestant.


9 posted on 08/09/2014 6:38:34 AM PDT by piusv
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To: marshmallow

Second Vatican Council, Dogmatic Constitution Lumen gentium, 14: “They could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it, or to remain in it.”


10 posted on 08/09/2014 7:32:49 AM PDT by Romulus
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To: marshmallow
Palmer handed the pope a proposed Declaration of Faith in Unity for Mission the evangelicals had drawn up, which they proposed would be signed by both the Vatican and leaders of the major Protestant churches in Rome in 2017, on the 500th anniversary of the Reformation and the 50th anniversary of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal.

Last Wednesday, in Bath, Palmer’s funeral was a Catholic Requiem Mass at which most of the congregation were evangelicals. He was buried in a Catholic cemetery, united at last with the Church he felt at home in.

WTF?

11 posted on 08/09/2014 7:52:53 AM PDT by piusv
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To: Popman

In as much as Christ built His Church on Peter, and that Church is the Catholic Church, Francis doesn’t agree with scripture at all.


12 posted on 08/09/2014 8:26:45 AM PDT by Wyrd bi ful ard (Asperges me, Domine, hyssopo et mundabor, Lavabis me, et super nivem dealbabor.)
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To: piusv
He was buried in a Catholic cemetery, united at last with the Church he felt at home in.

It's a little too late at this point, thanks to Francis discouraging Palmer, while he was alive, from converting to Catholicism.

13 posted on 08/09/2014 8:49:27 AM PDT by ebb tide
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To: ebb tide

How the hell did an Evangelical have a Catholic Requiem Mass in the first place?


14 posted on 08/09/2014 9:29:42 AM PDT by piusv
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To: Wyrd bið ful aræd

——Francis doesn’t agree with scripture at all.——

Interesting, so a sitting Pope doesn’t agree with the Word of God....

How can that be?

What does he believe? His reflection in the mirror?


15 posted on 08/09/2014 10:20:24 AM PDT by Popman ("Resistance to Tyrants is Obedience to God" - Thomas Jefferson)
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To: Popman

Who knows what he believes. How can it be? The same as it is with any fallible human being not agreeing with the Word of God.


16 posted on 08/09/2014 10:49:32 AM PDT by Wyrd bi ful ard (Asperges me, Domine, hyssopo et mundabor, Lavabis me, et super nivem dealbabor.)
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To: Wyrd bið ful aræd
The same as it is with any fallible human being not agreeing with the Word of God.

True, except he's the Pope...Christ vicar on earth..and he doesn't believe in what the Bible says...

Much of it being Jesus own words...

17 posted on 08/09/2014 11:55:47 AM PDT by Popman ("Resistance to Tyrants is Obedience to God" - Thomas Jefferson)
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To: Popman
True, except he's the Pope...Christ vicar on earth..and he doesn't believe in what the Bible says...

Peter didn't believe he would deny Christ; but he did. What's your point?

18 posted on 08/09/2014 6:23:53 PM PDT by ebb tide
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To: vladimir998
Cause he wasn’t one.

Correct, he wasn't an Anglican bishop; he was a fellow Catholic bishop according to Pope Francis.

Protestant Tony Palmer Receives Catholic Requiem Mass Report: Pope Francis Insists he be “Buried as a Bishop”

19 posted on 08/10/2014 8:21:43 AM PDT by ebb tide
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To: ebb tide

No, he wasn’t a Catholic Bishop - and the pope did not say he was a Catholic Bishop either. He simply called him a fellow bishop since he apparently had valid orders through an Old Catholic line.


20 posted on 08/10/2014 9:29:23 AM PDT by vladimir998
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To: vladimir998
He simply called him a fellow bishop since he apparently had valid orders through an Old Catholic line.

I find it amusing when people throw out totally unsupported propositions, such as "valid orders" to defend the scandals of Pope Francis.

Tony Palmer – the New Face of Anglicanism

On the Nullity of Anglican Orders

21 posted on 08/10/2014 10:23:23 AM PDT by ebb tide
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To: vladimir998
It's not the first time that post-Vatican popes have recognized invalid orders as being valid.

Archbishop Welby, who is visiting Rome with his wife, wore, as is customary for visiting archbishops, an episcopal ring given to Archbishop Michael Ramsey by Pope Paul VI in 1966.

Vlad, in the uppermost picture, Pope St. John Paul II is kissing the episcopal ring that Pope Paul VI had given to the faux bishop, Michael Ramsey.


22 posted on 08/10/2014 11:04:07 AM PDT by ebb tide
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To: ebb tide

The orders of the above three Anglican bishops were not valid and were not recognized as such by anyone in the Vatican. John Paul II kissing an Anglican’s ring is no more a validation of his orders than kissing a Qur’an is a validation of its contents.


23 posted on 08/10/2014 3:46:03 PM PDT by vladimir998
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To: ebb tide

“I find it amusing when people throw out totally unsupported propositions, such as “valid orders” to defend the scandals of Pope Francis.”

1) This is not a scandal - except to you and other sedevcante and quasi-sedevacante.

2) Anyone who has actually studied the valid orders controversy knows the following:

- the Church has concluded that all Anglicans will be treated as if no valid orders exists in all public statements and if they seek ordination in the Catholic Church.

- Some Anglicans have received documented proof from the Vatican that they have valid orders because they were ordained through Old Catholic lines. Some have even written about this. here’s a case from 1959 - 3 years before Vatican II. http://philorthodox.blogspot.com/2008/10/vatican-recoginition-of-anglican-orders.html

One final note: Even if Tony Palmer did not have valid orders, the pope may have believed he did. In the grant scheme of things it hardly matters. Palmer is dead. Francis is still pope. And none of us can change either one of those facts.


24 posted on 08/10/2014 4:00:17 PM PDT by vladimir998
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To: vladimir998

Pope John Paul II kissed the ring that Pope Paul VI had given to the the faux bishop, Michael Ramsey; thus recognizing both Rowan Williams and Ramsey’s “valid”orders.

It wasn’t an “anglican ring”! It was a Catholic episcopal ring given by Pope Paul VI to the heretic, Michael Ramsey.


25 posted on 08/10/2014 4:03:39 PM PDT by ebb tide
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To: ebb tide

“Pope John Paul II kissed the ring that Pope Paul VI had given to the the faux bishop, Michael Ramsey; thus recognizing both Rowan Williams and Ramsey’s “valid”orders.”

Nope. He may have kissed the ring but that doesn’t mean he recognized their orders. Again, this is the same pope who kissed the Qur’an.

“It wasn’t an “anglican ring”!”

You need to learn to read more carefully. I said “Anglican’s ring” not “anglican ring”. It was on an Anglican’s hand.

“It was a Catholic episcopal ring given by Pope Paul VI to the heretic, Michael Ramsey.”

Which tells us exactly nothing about what Paul VI thought of Anglican orders.

Nice try. You failed again.


26 posted on 08/10/2014 4:08:54 PM PDT by vladimir998
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To: vladimir998
Even if Tony Palmer did not have valid orders, the pope may have believed he did.

So what the Pope may have mistakenly believed about "valid orders" makes it OK?

You have stated that Tony Palmer was not an Anglican Bishop (Post 3)

You have stated that Tony Palmer was not Catholic Bishop (Post 20).

What in tarnation was he?

27 posted on 08/10/2014 4:18:08 PM PDT by ebb tide
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To: vladimir998
Which tells us exactly nothing about what Paul VI thought of Anglican orders.

It tells us that, unlike the pre-Vatican II popes, Popes Paul VI, Pope Benedict and Pope Francis have recognized Anglican orders as being valid.

Why else would each one them present either an episcopal ring or pectoral cross to a heretic?

28 posted on 08/10/2014 4:24:34 PM PDT by ebb tide
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To: vladimir998

>>“It was a Catholic episcopal ring given by Pope Paul VI to the heretic, Michael Ramsey.”<<

>>Which tells us exactly nothing about what Paul VI thought of Anglican orders.<<

Do you know what an episcopal ring or pectoral cross represents?

I don’t think you do.


29 posted on 08/10/2014 4:36:22 PM PDT by ebb tide
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To: vladimir998
From the Catholic Encyclopedia:

The collective name given for convenience sake to those insignia of the episcopal order which of right are worn by bishops alone. In its broader sense the term may be taken to include all the items of attire proper to bishops, even those belonging to their civil or choir dress, for example the cappa magna, or the hat with its green cord and lining. But more strictly and accurately, rubricians limit the pontificals to those ornaments which a prelate wears in celebrating pontifically. The pontificals common to all are enumerated by Pius VII in his constitution "Decet Romanos" (4 July, 1823), and are eight in number: buskins, sandals, gloves, dalmatic, tunicle, ring, pectoral cross, and mitre.

"Bishops alone".

30 posted on 08/10/2014 4:48:01 PM PDT by ebb tide
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To: vladimir998
1) This is not a scandal - except to you and other sedevcante and quasi-sedevacante.

Once again, in desperation, you resort to calling me a sedevacantist.

Prove it.

31 posted on 08/10/2014 5:12:10 PM PDT by ebb tide
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To: vladimir998
It was on an Anglican’s hand.

It was a Catholic episcopal ring on a heretic's finger.

32 posted on 08/10/2014 5:27:56 PM PDT by ebb tide
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