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The Priesthood of All Believers?
Answering Protestants ^ | 12 August 2014 | Matthew Olson

Posted on 08/13/2014 6:50:52 PM PDT by matthewrobertolson

1 Timothy 5:17, James 5:14-15, and other verses refer to the (ordained) ministerial priesthood. 1 Peter 2:9 refers to the "priesthood" of the laity. The ministers handle preaching and the Sacraments. The laity simply participate. Scripture makes a strong distinction.ierateuma/hierateuma (lay priesthood, Greek, Strong's #2406) [1 Peter 2:9, Lexicon]

sacerdotium (lay priesthood, Latin) [1 Peter 2:9]

presbuteroi/presbyteros (ministerial priesthood, Greek, Strong's #4245) [1 Timothy 5:17, James 5:14-15, Lexicon]

presbyteri/presbyteros (ministerial priesthood, Latin) [1 Timothy 5:17, James 5:14-15]

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priesthood


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; General Discusssion; Theology
KEYWORDS: bible; catholic; language; pimpmyblog; protestant
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1 posted on 08/13/2014 6:50:53 PM PDT by matthewrobertolson
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To: matthewrobertolson

“The laity simply participate.”

The Catholic Church: Wrong for 2000 years and still going!

Sigh.


2 posted on 08/13/2014 6:56:45 PM PDT by PastorBooks
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To: PastorBooks

Exactly. There is ONE mediator between God and man: Christ.


3 posted on 08/13/2014 7:00:32 PM PDT by TigerClaws
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To: TigerClaws; PastorBooks
...And the ordained stand in persona Christi in the liturgy (leitourgia), as well as forgive sins in His name, under the authority of the successors of His Apostles.

Read the verses in mentioned, and read them in light of the mentioned languages.
4 posted on 08/13/2014 7:08:00 PM PDT by matthewrobertolson
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To: PastorBooks
In that case no need for you, "pastor."

Go join the Russian old believers.

5 posted on 08/13/2014 7:10:01 PM PDT by Wyrd bi ful ard (Asperges me, Domine, hyssopo et mundabor, Lavabis me, et super nivem dealbabor.)
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To: matthewrobertolson
" "one who offers sacrifice and has the charge of things pertaining thereto," is used (a) of a "priest" of the pagan god Zeus, Acts 14:13; (b) of Jewish "priests," e.g., Matt. 8:4; 12:4,5; Luke 1:5, where allusion is made to the 24 courses of "priests" appointed for service in the Temple (cp. 1 Chron. 24:4ff.); John 1:19; Heb. 8:4; (c) of believers, Rev. 1:6; 5:10; 20:6. Israel was primarily designed as a nation to be a kingdom of "priests," offering service to God, e.g., Ex. 19:6; the Israelites having renounced their obligations, Ex. 20:19, the Aaronic priesthood was selected for the purpose, till Christ came to fulfill His ministry in offering up Himself; since then the Jewish priesthood has been abrogated, to be resumed nationally, on behalf of Gentiles, in the millenial kingdom, Is. 61:6; 66:21. Meanwhile all believers, from Jews and Gentiles, are constituted "a kingdom of priests," Rev. 1:6 (see above), "a holy priesthood," 1 Pet. 2:5, and "royal," 1 Pet. 2:9.

The NT knows nothing of a sacerdotal class in contrast to the laity; all believers are commanded to offer the sacrifices mentioned in Rom. 12:1; Phil. 2:17; 4:18; Heb. 13:15,16; 1 Pet. 2:5; (d) of Christ, Heb. 5:6; 7:11,15,17,21; 8:4 (negatively); (e) of Melchizedek, as the forshadower of Christ, Heb. 7:1,3."

Vine's Topical Bible: http://www2.mf.no/bibelprog/vines?word=%AFt0002209

1 Tim 5:17:

"The elders that rule well (...proestootes presbuteroi). See 1 Timothy 5:1 for ordinary sense of presbuteros for “older man.” But here of position in same sense as episkopos (1 Timothy 3:2) as in Titus 1:5 = episkopos in 1 Timothy 5:7. Cf. Luke‘s use of presbuteros (Acts 20:17) = Paul‘s episkopous (Acts 20:28). Proestotes is second perfect active participle of proisteemi (intransitive use) for which see note on 1 Timothy 3:4." [Greek letters deleted to preserve html format]

http://www.studylight.org/commentaries/rwp/view.cgi?bk=53&ch=5

"Let the elders that rule well - Greek presbuteroi Presbyters. The apostle had given full instructions respecting bishops 1 Timothy 3:1-7; deacons 1 Timothy 3:8-13; widows 1 Timothy 5:3-16; and he here proceeds to prescribe the duty of the church toward those who sustain the office of elder. The word used - “elder” or “presbyter” - properly refers to age, and is then used to denote the officers of the church, probably because the aged were at first entrusted with the administration of the affairs of the church. The word was in familiar use among the Jews to denote the body of men that presided in the synagogue; see the Matthew 15:2 note; Acts 11:30; Acts 15:2 notes.

That rule well - Presiding well, or well managing the spiritual interests of the church. The word rendered “rule” -proestotes- is from a verb meaning to be over; to preside over; to have the care of. The word is used with reference to bishops, Titus 1:5, Titus 1:7; to an apostle, 1 Peter 5:1; and is such a word as would apply to any officers to whom the management and government of the church was entrusted. On the general subject of the rulers in the church; see the notes on 1 Corinthians 12:28. It is probable that not precisely the same organization was pursued in every place where a church was established; and where there was a Jewish synagogue, the Christian church would be formed substantially after that model, and in such a church there would be a bench of presiding eiders; see, on this subject, Whately‘s “Kingdom of Christ delineated,” pp. 84-80. The language here seems to have been taken from such an organization."

http://www.studylight.org/commentaries/bnb/view.cgi?bk=53&ch=5

6 posted on 08/13/2014 7:12:13 PM PDT by Mr Rogers
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To: Wyrd bið ful aræd

“In that case no need for you, “pastor.” “

I can agree with that! Everyone who is born again into Christ is a priest. The only difference between a pastor and a member-priest is that my duty is to help them do theirs.

Early, early in Catholic history the priests started taking unwarranted authority to themselves. It became about *them* and not the people. They started wearing clothes that made them stand out, etc. None of it was taught by Christ. None of it was taught by Paul.

As I said, wrong for 2000 years and counting.


7 posted on 08/13/2014 7:17:43 PM PDT by PastorBooks
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To: PastorBooks
As I said, wrong for 2000 years and counting.

WOW, it's a good thing that Luther came along 1,600 years later to set Catholics straight....just in the nick of time...WHEW!! It's a good thing that he knew more about Christian beliefs and teachings than did 16 centuries of church leaders....pathetic

8 posted on 08/13/2014 7:28:35 PM PDT by terycarl
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To: matthewrobertolson

How about this: The only priest I need is Christ himself??


9 posted on 08/13/2014 7:33:34 PM PDT by JSDude1
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To: terycarl

It’s a good thing that he knew more about Christian beliefs and teachings than did 16 centuries of church leaders....

Yes, he did know more!

The Catholic church had completely lost the Gospel. They were selling “indulgences”! They had a nice little religion thing going, a centuries-old scam. No relationship to Christ and His teachings whatsoever.

Thank God for Luther and the other reformers!


10 posted on 08/13/2014 7:42:34 PM PDT by PastorBooks
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To: matthewrobertolson; Mr Rogers

Not a food time for inter-Christian fighting. In the middle east, jihadis are killing all types of Christians and in the USA leftists don’t care if you are Catholics, Baptist or Presbyterian.


11 posted on 08/13/2014 7:48:23 PM PDT by Cronos (Obama’s dislike of Assad is not based on Assad’s brutality but that he isn't a jihadi Moslem)
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To: PastorBooks

so Catholic Church has been wrong for 2000 years,

just how long has your sect, schismatic or splinter group been right for a year, twenty years, two hundred years?

I assumed it was formed by a man or men what makes them so right? how do you know that for a fact?

or are you the type of protestant who can’t be bothered with a sect or schismatic group?

Do you just stay home on the Lords Day and ‘church yourself’??

Ad Majoram Dei Gloriam


12 posted on 08/13/2014 7:53:24 PM PDT by LurkingSince'98 (Ad Majoram Dei Gloriam = FOR THE GREATER GLORY OF GODs)
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To: JSDude1

hey Dude,

so it’s just you and the Lord, so are you one of those who stay home an the Lord’s Day and just ‘church yourself’?

AMDG


13 posted on 08/13/2014 7:55:46 PM PDT by LurkingSince'98 (Ad Majoram Dei Gloriam = FOR THE GREATER GLORY OF GODs)
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To: matthewrobertolson; x_plus_one; Patton@Bastogne; Oldeconomybuyer; RightField; aposiopetic; ...
+

Freep-mail me to get on or off my pro-life and Catholic List:

Add me / Remove me

Please ping me to note-worthy Pro-Life or Catholic threads, or other threads of general interest.

14 posted on 08/13/2014 7:56:05 PM PDT by narses
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To: matthewrobertolson
Indeed, the NT does make a clear distinction between the two terms, just not in the way that you are trying to portray. Let's look at the evidence:

In 1 Peter 2:9, the word translated as "priesthood" is:

hierateuma - Strong's G2406

Anyone with even a passing knowledge of Greek should be able to guess this word has to do with an order with some religious function, due to the prefix "hiera", which we still retain in English via loan words, such as "hierophant", "hieratic", and "hieroglyphs", all words dealing specifically with sacred things set apart from the profane.

When Christ's priesthood is described, the same prefix is used, for example, in Heb. 7:11, 7:12, 7:14, and 7:24 the word is:

hierōsynē - Strong's G2420

Also, it is interesting to note that the same chapter of Hebrews, in verse 5, refers to the Levitical priesthood (which the Roman priests closely mimic in function), using the word:

hierateia - Strong's G2406

Again, we see the same prefix hiera/hiero, denoting a sacred priestly order.

Now, what about the verses that the Roman church claims refer to their priesthood? What words does the NT use in those cases?

Well, there is Acts 14:23 which speaks of ordaining these people, so that seems a good place to start, if we are looking for a reference to an ordained priesthood that the Romans make claim to. The word used there is:

presbyteros - Strong's G4245

This word is an adjective, though often used as a noun, that is derived from the Greek word "presbus", which means "elderly". The best literal translation for this word is, therefore "elder", not priest at all.

Of course, it could be that the word was not being used literally, but was a euphemism for a priesthood. Well, let's look at the other uses of the word in the NT, and see if we can get an idea of the contemporary usage.

This same word is used in combination with the phrases "chief priests" and/or "scribes" many times in the NT, for example, in Mat 16:21, Mat 21:23, Mat 26:3, Mat 27:1, Luk 9:22, etc. These words repeatedly used in close association do suggest that "elders" was used to denote an office, but was this office a priesthood?

Well, the solution to that question can be answered by looking at a verse such as Luke 22:66, which describes Christ being brought before a council of Jews to be interrogated:

Luk 22:66-67:

"And as soon as it was day, the elders of the people and the chief priests and the scribes came together, and led him into their council, saying,

Art thou the Christ? tell us. And he said unto them, If I tell you, ye will not believe:"

Now, what council was this that the Jews brought Jesus before in Jerusalem? It could only be one council: the Sanhedrin. Now, what was the Sanhedrin, and who composed it? Was it the priesthood of Israel?

The Jewish Encyclopedia tells us Sanhedrin means:

"Hebrew-Aramaic term originally designating only the assembly at Jerusalem that constituted the highest political magistracy of the country."

Speaking of its functions the same source tells us:

"In the Talmudic sources the "Great" Sanhedrin at Jerusalem is so called in contradistinction to other bodies designated by that name; and it was generally assumed that this Great Sanhedrin was identical with the Sanhedrin at Jerusalem which is mentioned in the non-Talmudic sources, in the Gospels, and in Josephus. The accounts in the two different sets of sources referring to the Sanhedrin, however, differ materially in their main characteristics. The Great Sanhedrin is designated in the Talmudic sources as "Sanhedrin Gedolah hayoshebet be-lishkat ha-gazit" = "the Great Sanhedrin which sits in the hall of hewn stone"(Sifra, Wayiḳra, ed. Weiss, 19a). The mention of "sanhedrin" without the epithet "gedolah" (Yer. Sanh. i. 19c) seems to presuppose another body than the Great Sanhedrin that met in the hall of hewn stone. For neither Josephus nor the Gospels in speaking of the Sanhedrin report any of its decisions or discussions referring to the priests or to the Temple service, or touching in any way upon the religious law, but they refer to the Sanhedrin exclusively in matters connected with legal procedure, verdicts, and decrees of a political nature; whereas the Sanhedrin in the hall of hewn stone dealt, according to the Talmudic sources, with questions relating to the Temple, the priesthood, the sacrifices, and matters of a kindred nature. Adolf Büchler assumes indeed that there were in Jerusalem two magistracies which were entirely different in character and functions and which officiated side by side at the same time. That to which the Gospels and Josephus refer was the highest political authority, and at the same time the supreme court; this alone was empowered to deal with criminal cases and to impose the sentence of capital punishment. The other, sitting in the hall of hewn stone, was the highest court dealing with the religious law, being in charge also of the religious instruction of the people (Sanh. xi. 2-4)."

So, the council spoken of in the Gospels is the "political Sanhedrin". Who composed this Sanhedrin? The Jewish Encyclopedia says:

"This Sanhedrin, which was entirely aristocratic in character, probably assumed its own authority, since it was composed of members of the most influential families of the nobility and priesthood (comp. Sanh. iv. 2, where there is an allusion to the composition of this body). The Pharisees had no great influence in this assembly, although some of its members may have been friendly to them at various times. Though there are no definite references to gradations in rank among the several members, there seems to have been a committee of ten members, οὶ δέκαπρῶτοι, who ranked above their colleagues (comp. Schürer, "Gesch." 3d ed., ii. 201-202)."

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/13178-sanhedrin

So the Jewish traditions and the Gospels seem to agree, this council was a judicial and political body, and though it did contain members of the priesthood (the "chief priests", from influential priestly families), it also contained members from the nobility, or preeminent families of Israel. If you check other sources, it is clear that there were also members who were scholars of the law, due to the judicial nature of the council:

"Since the Beth-Din had to deal frequently with legal matters, it was natural that many of its members should be chosen from among men specially given to the study of the Law; this is why we so often hear of the scribes in the Sanhedrin."

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13444a.htm

So, we have 3 groups composing the Sanhedrin, those from priestly families (chief priests), students of the law (scribes), and those from noble families (elders/presbyteros). Clearly, the word was used to denote a special appointed function or role, apart from the literal meaning of "elder", but this role was different from the priesthood of Israel, it was the role of the elder statesmen of the tribes of Israel.

Once you understand that, it is easy to understand why two different words were used to describe the different functions in the NT church, because one was describing the religious office (the priesthood, shared by all believers, with Christ as the high priest), and the other described a governmental office (the elders), who were appointed by the Apostles (or chosen by the churches themselves) to handle the governmental functions of the churches.

15 posted on 08/13/2014 7:56:27 PM PDT by Boogieman
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To: matthewrobertolson

I always wonder why you and a few others regularly post material designed to cause strife in followers of Christ?
What is your point?

” 1 Timothy 6:3-6New American Standard Bible (NASB)

3 If anyone advocates a different doctrine and does not [a]agree with sound words, those of our Lord Jesus Christ, and with the doctrine conforming to godliness, 4 he is conceited and understands nothing; but he [b]has a morbid interest in controversial questions and disputes about words, out of which arise envy, strife, abusive language, evil suspicions, 5 and constant friction between men of depraved mind and deprived of the truth, who suppose that [c]godliness is a means of gain. 6 But godliness actually is a means of great gain when accompanied by contentment. “

” 1 Corinthians 3:3New International Version (NIV)

3 You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere humans? “


Galatians 5:20New International Version (NIV)

20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions “


16 posted on 08/13/2014 7:57:51 PM PDT by HereInTheHeartland (Obama lied; our healthcare died.)
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To: PastorBooks
This common idea of the "selling" of indulgences is mostly due to a misunderstanding. The Protestant understanding usually relies on the assault of characters: people like Johann Tetzel are demonized — perhaps rightfully — for abusing the system. But this abuse was not a doctrinal problem of the Church; rather, it was a disciplinary problem of men. Indulgences simply remove the temporal punishment due for past sin — they are not a "Get out of Hell free" card — and even when they were "sold" (meaning, donations were received) they required some sort of penance. Indulgences only have a salvatory effectiveness (remittance of time in Purgatory) if the recipient is already destined for Heaven.

So, it would seem that the fuss is all about nothing.
17 posted on 08/13/2014 8:03:21 PM PDT by matthewrobertolson
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To: PastorBooks
Luther put a new spin on an old, old, heresy that God clearly doesn't agree with. He then wanted to throw out the book of Jude that warns against that heresy (Jude 1:11) the same way Luther wanted throw out the book of James because James flatly states that we are not saved by faith alone (James 2:24).

Here is where the "priesthood of all believers" first came up (v 3) along with exactly how God The Father Himself reacted to that idea and those who advocated it.

Numbers:16:1 And behold Core the son of Isaar, the son of Caath, the son of Levi, and Dathan and Abiron the sons of Eliab, and Hon the son of Pheleth of the children of Ruben,
Numbers:16:2 Rose up against Moses, and with them two hundred and fifty others of the children of Israel, leading men of the synagogue, and who in the time of assembly were called by name.
Numbers:16:3 And when they had stood up against Moses and Aaron, they said : Let it be enough for you, that all the multitude consisteth of holy ones, and the Lord is among them : Why lift you up yourselves above the people of the Lord ?
Numbers:16:4 When Moses heard this, he fell flat on his face :
Numbers:16:5 And speaking to Core and all the multitude, he said : In the morning
the Lord will make known who belong to him, and the holy he will join to himself : and whom he shall choose, they shall approach to him.
Numbers:16:6 Do this therefore : Take every man of you your censers, thou Core, and all thy company.
Numbers:16:7 And putting fire in them to morrow, put incense upon it before the Lord : and whomsoever he shall choose, the same shall be holy : you take too much upon you, ye sons of Levi.
Numbers:16:8 And he said again to Core : Hear ye sons of Levi.
Numbers:16:9 Is it a small thing unto you, that the God of Israel hath spared you from all the people, and joined you to himself, that you should serve him in the service of the tabernacle, and should stand before the congregation of the people, and should minister to him ?
Numbers:16:10 Did he therefore make thee and all thy brethren the sons of Levi to approach unto him, that you should challenge to yourselves the priesthood also,
Numbers:16:11 And that all thy company should stand against the Lord ? for what is Aaron that you murmur against him ?
Numbers:16:12 Then Moses sent to call Dathan and Abiron the sons of Eliab. But they answered : We will not come.
Numbers:16:13 Is it a small matter to thee, that thou hast brought us out of a land that flowed with milk and honey, to kill us in the desert, except thou rule also like a lord over us ?
Numbers:16:14 Thou hast brought us indeed into a land that floweth with rivers of milk and honey, and hast given us possessions of fields and vineyards ; wilt thou also pull out our eyes ? We will not come.
Numbers:16:15 Moses therefore being very angry, said to the Lord : Respect not their sacrifices : thou knowest that I have not taken of them so much as a young ass at any time, nor have injured any of them.
Numbers:16:16 And he said to Core : Do thou and thy congregation stand apart before the Lord to morrow, and Aaron apart.
Numbers:16:17 Take every one of you censers, and put incense upon them, offering to the Lord two hundred and fifty censers : let Aaron also hold his censer.
Numbers:16:18 When they had done this, Moses and Aaron standing,
Numbers:16:19 And had drawn up all the multitude against them to the door of the tabernacle, the glory of the Lord appeared to them all.
Numbers:16:20 And the Lord speaking to Moses and Aaron, said :
Numbers:16:21 Separate yourselves from among this congregation, that I may presently destroy them.
Numbers:16:22 They fell flat on their face, and said : O most mighty, the God of the spirits of all flesh, for one man's sin shall thy wrath rage against all ?
Numbers:16:23 And the Lord said to Moses :
Numbers:16:24 Command the whole people to separate themselves from the tents of Core and Dathan and Abiron.
Numbers:16:25 And Moses arose, and went to Dathan and Abiron : and the ancients of Israel following him,
Numbers:16:26 He said to the multitude : Depart from the tents of these wicked men, and touch nothing of theirs, lest you be involved in their sins.
Numbers:16:27 And when they were departed from their tents round about, Dathan and Abiron coming out stood in the entry of their pavilions with their wives and children, and all the people.
Numbers:16:28 And Moses said : By this you shall know that the Lord hath sent me to do all things that you see, and that I have not forged them of my own head :
Numbers:16:29 If these men die the common death of men, and if they be visited with a plague, wherewith others also are wont to be visited, the Lord did not send me.
Numbers:16:30 But if the Lord do a new thing, and the earth opening her mouth swallow them down, and all things that belong to them, and they go down alive into hell, you shall know that they have blasphemed the Lord.
Numbers:16:31 And immediately as he had made an end of speaking, the earth broke asunder under their feet :
Numbers:16:32 And opening her mouth, devoured them with their tents and all their substance.
Numbers:16:33 And they went down alive into hell, the ground closing upon them, and they perished from among the people.
Numbers:16:34 But all Israel, that was standing round about, fled at the cry of them that were perishing : saying : Lest perhaps the earth swallow us up also.
Numbers:16:35 And a fire coming out from the Lord, destroyed the two hundred and fifty men that offered the incense.
Numbers:16:36 And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying :
Numbers:16:37 Command Eleazar the son of Aaron the priest to take up the censers that lie in the burning, and to scatter the fire of one side and the other : because they are sanctified.
Numbers:16:38 In the deaths of the sinners : and let him beat them into plates, and fasten them to the altar, because incense hath been offered in them to the Lord, and they are sanctified, that the children of Israel may see them for a sign and a memorial.

When God enters into a Covenent He raises up leaders and has them appoint and anoint shepherds for His sheep. He doesn't have the sheep elect whichever sheep they like best as their shepherd, nor does He approve of sheep being a self-appointed shepherd to however many fellow sheep with itching ears follow the self-appointed head sheep of the Church of Itchy Eared Sheep.

Jesus Christ put the authority for selecting shepherds in the hands of the Apostles who have passed that authority down to us in an unbroken chain to this day. We are no more our own shepherds than ancient Israel that Scripture called a nation of priests was a nation without a priesthood.

And don't even try to pretend the New Testament changed that approach since Christ selecting Apostles who chose and appointed Bishops who in turn could ordain priests is an example of the fact that God is indeed the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow, not an example of deviating from the will of Jesus Christ.

And contrary to what heretic propagandists dreamed up to rationalize their heresy may say, it was Peter, not Constantine, who established the hierarchy and roles within that hierarchy that the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church Jesus Christ Himself founded continues to this day.

I prefer to believe Scripture rather than excuses for following the heresy of Core.

18 posted on 08/13/2014 8:04:28 PM PDT by Rashputin (Jesus Christ doesn't evacuate His troops, He leads them to victory.)
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To: terycarl
WOW, it's a good thing that Luther came along 1,600 years later to set Catholics straight....just in the nick of time...WHEW!! It's a good thing that he knew more about Christian beliefs and teachings than did 16 centuries of church leaders....pathetic

To be fair, the bulk of Luther's disputes with the church were about doctrines which were either medieval, or had been around but not particularly promulgated until the late middle ages--e.g., indulgences had been around for centuries, but until the printing press they were not readily available to all the figurative pew-sitters.

If anything, Luther was bringing back much of what had been Augustinian doctrine, which had been affected by all the medieval attempts to compromise the pure gospel, with Plato in the early middle ages, or with Aristotle in the later middle ages. So it wasn't that Luther knew more than 16 centuries of church leaders, but rather that the church leaders of the 16th century had forgotten a lot of what the early centuries of church leaders had known, and Luther helped bring it back.

19 posted on 08/13/2014 8:04:47 PM PDT by chajin ("There is no other name under heaven given among people by which we must be saved." Acts 4:12)
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To: matthewrobertolson
The Priesthood of All Believers?

Yep! That IS what God is saying pretty clearly.

20 posted on 08/13/2014 8:05:13 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: chajin

well said


21 posted on 08/13/2014 8:06:41 PM PDT by Pelham (California, what happens when you won't deport illegals)
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To: terycarl

Does the Catholic Church still sell indulgences? If not, score one for Luther.


22 posted on 08/13/2014 8:11:55 PM PDT by Pelham (California, what happens when you won't deport illegals)
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To: PastorBooks

The early Christians were Jews and the early clergy dressed like Jewish priests. But better yet why not include Eastern Orthodox Catholics, and the Orthodox Church. They’ve been wearing vestments for the last 2,000 years. And while you at why don’t you ask your protestant brother Anglicans and Lutherans why they wear vestments.

There’s nothing unscriptural about vestments. God commanded that they be used in the Old Testament. Look at Exodus 28:2:

For your brother Aaron you will make sacred vestments to give dignity and magnificence. You will instruct all the skilled men, whom I have endowed with skill, to make Aaron’s vestments for his consecration to my priesthood. These are the vestments which they must make: a pectoral, an ephod, a robe, an embroidered tunic, a turban, and a belt. They must make sacred vestments for your brother Aaron and his sons, for them to be priests in my service. They will use gold and violet material, red-purple and crimson, and finely woven linen.


23 posted on 08/13/2014 8:16:30 PM PDT by NKP_Vet
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To: PastorBooks; matthewrobertolson
It's bigger than just participating.

We, as Catholics, are commissioned by Christ:

Matthew 28

 

18 And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age."


24 posted on 08/13/2014 8:21:18 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: NKP_Vet

“For your brother Aaron you will make sacred vestments...”

The veil was torn in two. The OLD Covenant system of priests and sacrifices was done away with. Same with the fancy clothing.

The only reason that practice started up again in the early Church was the same reason that the televangelists carry on the way they do: the love of attention, money and power.

Jesus came as a Servant Who washed feet. Anyone not following His humble example isn’t listening.


25 posted on 08/13/2014 8:25:58 PM PDT by PastorBooks
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To: Pelham

Not just one. There were plenty of reforms made in the Counter-reformation period that clearly were a response to the complaints of the Protestants.


26 posted on 08/13/2014 8:29:03 PM PDT by Boogieman
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To: PastorBooks

Whelp...might as well throw out the ten commandments, sodomy and entire OT then. It has nothing to do with the beliefs we adhere too today...


27 posted on 08/13/2014 8:33:51 PM PDT by Bayard
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To: PastorBooks

Yea, now we have more churches than anyone knows. And the authority for all these churches is?


28 posted on 08/13/2014 8:46:33 PM PDT by reefdiver (The fool says there is no God. And the bigger fools sees direct evidence and rages against it.)
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To: matthewrobertolson; terycarl

James refers to deeds being a result of Faith. Your faith will lead to good deeds not the other way around. If you believe that James was referring to good deeds being equal to salvation then the entire Bible contradicts itself when it says faith alone saves. Faith led Abraham to his deeds of righteousness he/we must have faith first and then the deeds will follow as Christ commands.
If years make a religion right then the Jews has us all beat, so lets all convert they must be right.


29 posted on 08/13/2014 9:12:12 PM PDT by mrobisr
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To: reefdiver
"And the authority for all these churches is?"

Why humble little Self and Self Alone folks who say, "Let it be enough for you, that all the multitude consisteth of holy ones, and the Lord is among them : Why lift you up yourselves above the people of the Lord ? of course.

Exactly what Jude warned against.

30 posted on 08/13/2014 9:13:16 PM PDT by Rashputin (Jesus Christ doesn't evacuate His troops, He leads them to victory.)
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To: Boogieman; Pelham
The Church was already making many of those reforms.

See Pope Alexander VI's (1492-1503) planned "Bull of Reforms".
31 posted on 08/13/2014 9:38:40 PM PDT by matthewrobertolson
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To: Bayard

“might as well throw out the ten commandments, sodomy and entire OT then...”

Oh, please.


32 posted on 08/13/2014 9:45:03 PM PDT by PastorBooks
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To: reefdiver

“And the authority for all these churches is?”

Jesus.


33 posted on 08/13/2014 9:45:43 PM PDT by PastorBooks
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To: reefdiver

There is two Christian Churches, the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church. Protestant faiths are not churches. The Reformation ended that.


34 posted on 08/13/2014 9:52:12 PM PDT by NKP_Vet
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To: matthewrobertolson

I cherish that Jesus is a priest after the order of Melchizedek, and now ever lives to intercede for us!


35 posted on 08/13/2014 10:09:56 PM PDT by avenir (I'm pessimistic about man, but I'm optimistic about GOD!)
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To: LurkingSince'98

Why do you assume so much, Lurking?

No I make it when I can.


36 posted on 08/13/2014 10:15:47 PM PDT by JSDude1
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To: matthewrobertolson

Yes, I see that Alexander VI had planned some reforms but it appears that his papal successors didn’t follow through with his plan. I don’t know if banning indulgences was one of the reforms, it isn’t on the list that I saw.

Alexander VI was a Borgia Pope and his immediate successor wasn’t a fan, although some later Popes didn’t share Julius II’s low view. Wikipedia has this:

Following the death of Alexander VI, Julius II said on the day of his election:

“I will not live in the same rooms as the Borgias lived. He desecrated the Holy Church as none before. He usurped the papal power by the devil’s aid, and I forbid under the pain of excommunication anyone to speak or think of Borgia again. His name and memory must be forgotten. It must be crossed out of every document and memorial. His reign must be obliterated. All paintings made of the Borgias or for them must be covered over with black crepe. All the tombs of the Borgias must be opened and their bodies sent back to where they belong – to Spain.”

The Borgias’ apartments remained sealed until the 19th century.


37 posted on 08/13/2014 10:20:43 PM PDT by Pelham (California, what happens when you won't deport illegals)
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To: PastorBooks

Jesus built His Church on the rock. That was Peter. The first Pope.
Yes, plenty of mistakes have been made by men in the Church.
But the Church did not fail, as Jesus said it would not. Authority rests with Him.


38 posted on 08/13/2014 10:30:31 PM PDT by reefdiver (The fool says there is no God. And the bigger fools sees direct evidence and rages against it.)
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To: Boogieman

It would be interesting to see what practices were dropped in response to the Reformation.


39 posted on 08/13/2014 10:33:58 PM PDT by Pelham (California, what happens when you won't deport illegals)
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To: LurkingSince'98; JSDude1
so it’s just you and the Lord, so are you one of those who stay home an the Lord’s Day and just ‘church yourself’?

That would be a violation of this apostolic directive:

Heb 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

Which is a passage most faithful Protestants/evangelicals know about and honor, because they honor the word of God as the supreme authority in their lives.

Caricature much?

Peace,

SR

40 posted on 08/13/2014 10:57:45 PM PDT by Springfield Reformer (Winston Churchill: No Peace Till Victory!)
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To: PastorBooks

“They were selling “indulgences”!”

That was corrupt, but it was only as bad as it was, and no worse.


41 posted on 08/13/2014 11:19:11 PM PDT by dsc (Any attempt to move a government to the left is a crime against humanity.)
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To: matthewrobertolson
presbuteroi/presbyteros (ministerial priesthood, Greek, Strong's #4245) [1 Timothy 5:17, James 5:14-15, Lexicon]

Odd that. He uses Strong's number but not his definition? From the Strong's in my eSword:

presbuteros

pres-boo'-ter-os

Comparative of πρέσβυς presbus (elderly); older; as noun, a senior; specifically an Israelite Sanhedrist (also figuratively, member of the celestial council) or Christian “presbyter”: - elder (-est), old.

Hmmmmm, not a hint of any ministerial or sacerdotal dimensions to the word.

42 posted on 08/13/2014 11:31:57 PM PDT by Springfield Reformer (Winston Churchill: No Peace Till Victory!)
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To: Springfield Reformer

You take this verse out of context (meeting together as fellow Christians) if you imply that it infers an earthly priesthood that we MUST go through to see God. Now that would be a caricature.

Same to ya,

Peace/.


43 posted on 08/14/2014 12:33:07 AM PDT by JSDude1
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To: Cronos

AMEN!


44 posted on 08/14/2014 4:10:24 AM PDT by Biggirl (“Go, do not be afraid, and serve”-Pope Francis)
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To: JSDude1

Nope. It just says we need to meet and not give up on fellowshipping. Nothing in there implied or explicit about priesthood. Just the duty of Christian love, which cannot be expressed in a vacuum.


45 posted on 08/14/2014 5:06:20 AM PDT by Springfield Reformer (Winston Churchill: No Peace Till Victory!)
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To: PastorBooks

If the catholic church was wrong for 2000 years that would leave you in a precarious situation. For 1500 years there was only the catholic church. The council’s, the Bible, the deposit of faith has been preserved for 2000 years by the catholic church which you claim is wrong.

Even Luther questioned himself asking if he made a mistake because now every milkmaid would be interpreting scripture to ones own purpose.

That’s what the fruit of the protestant revolt brought, everybody interpreting scripture to suit their own purposes. Today Christian’s believe in, and Christian churches are marrying sodomites. Abortion is accepted by people claiming to be Christian, including apostate catholics.

There is either one truth or there is no truth.


46 posted on 08/14/2014 5:22:34 AM PDT by Cap'n Crunch
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To: Cap'n Crunch

“There is either one truth or there is no truth.”

Precisely! We agree! And that truth is God’s Word. And no, the Catholic church did not write the NT. God used them to canonize it. After that was done, it’s done. The Catholic church is not allowed to alter God’s Word by edict.

“Even Luther questioned himself asking if he made a mistake because now every milkmaid would be interpreting scripture to ones own purpose.”

That’s where the Holy Spirit comes in! Believers have no need for a divine hierarchy and higher-ups you bow down to and wearing rings you kiss. (Christ got down on His hands and knees and washed feet; the Popes stand there and have people bow to them. What nonsense!)

We need the Lord and each other. Every one born again is a priest before Him, to minister to each other with the gifts the Holy Spirit gives.

One shining light in the Catholic church was Mother Teresa. She loved not because she was a Catholic. She loved Christ and the poor because she was filled with the Spirit of Christ. Her love was evident. You can see the Spirit of Christ working through such a one.

I know that many, many Catholics are truly His and filled with Christ. But they are not that way because of the Catholic hierarchy. They are that way because they have met the Savior and have been touched by His love.


47 posted on 08/14/2014 6:27:48 AM PDT by PastorBooks
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To: Cap'n Crunch

“Today Christian’s believe in, and Christian churches are marrying sodomites.”

And those apostate “churches” are approved of by the vast majority of Bible-believing churches.

Among Southern Baptists there have been, from time to time, churches that started going apostate by embracing sin. Each time the local association takes the necessary steps to kick those churches out. I can’t speak for other denominations, but Southern Baptists are pretty swift at disfellowshipping churches that go rogue.


48 posted on 08/14/2014 6:33:04 AM PDT by PastorBooks
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To: matthewrobertolson

Oh, sure. The infamous Borgia Pope was going to reform the church? He’d have had to start by removing himself!


49 posted on 08/14/2014 7:36:33 AM PDT by Boogieman
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To: Cap'n Crunch

“If the catholic church was wrong for 2000 years that would leave you in a precarious situation. For 1500 years there was only the catholic church. The council’s, the Bible, the deposit of faith has been preserved for 2000 years by the catholic church which you claim is wrong.”

For how many thousands of years was Israel backsliding and disobeying God? Yet, we still have the Old Testament preserved, miraculously. I don’t think the failures of men can stand in the way of God’s work.


50 posted on 08/14/2014 7:39:30 AM PDT by Boogieman
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