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Martin Luther's Devotion to Mary
http://www.catholicculture.org ^ | April 24, 2003 | Dave Armstrong

Posted on 08/24/2014 4:45:06 PM PDT by NKP_Vet

Let's see what the Father of Protestantism thought about the Blessed Mother.....

Despite the radicalism of early Protestantism toward many ancient Catholic "distinctives," such as the Communion of the Saints, Penance, Purgatory, Infused Justification, the Papacy, the priesthood, sacramental marriage, etc., it may surprise many to discover that Martin Luther was rather conservative in some of his doctrinal views, such as on baptismal regeneration, the Eucharist, and particularly the Blessed Virgin Mary.

Luther indeed was quite devoted to Our Lady, and retained most of the traditional Marian doctrines which were held then and now by the Catholic Church. This is often not well-documented in Protestant biographies of Luther and histories of the 16th century, yet it is undeniably true. It seems to be a natural human tendency for latter-day followers to project back onto the founder of a movement their own prevailing viewpoints.

Since Lutheranism today does not possess a very robust Mariology, it is usually assumed that Luther himself had similar opinions. We shall see, upon consulting the primary sources (i.e., Luther's own writings), that the historical facts are very different. We shall consider, in turn, Luther's position on the various aspects of Marian doctrine.

Along with virtually all important Protestant Founders (e.g., Calvin, Zwingli, Cranmer), Luther accepted the traditional belief in the perpetual virginity of Mary (Jesus had no blood brothers), and her status as the Theotokos (Mother of God):

Christ, ..was the only Son of Mary, and the Virgin Mary bore no children besides Him... "brothers" really means "cousins" here, for Holy Writ and the Jews always call cousins brothers. (Sermons on John, chapters 1-4.1537-39).

He, Christ, our Savior, was the real and natural fruit of Mary's virginal womb.. .This was without the cooperation of a man, and she remained a virgin after that. (Ibid.)

God says... "Mary's Son is My only Son." Thus Mary is the Mother of God. (Ibid.).

God did not derive his divinity from Mary; but it does not follow that it is therefore wrong to say that God was born of Mary, that God is Mary's Son, and that Mary is God's mother...She is the true mother of God and bearer of God...Mary suckled God, rocked God to sleep, prepared broth and soup for God, etc. For God and man are one person, one Christ, one Son, one Jesus. not two Christs. . .just as your son is not two sons...even though he has two natures, body and soul, the body from you, the soul from God alone. (On the Councils and the Church, 1539).

Probably the most astonishing Marian belief of Luther is his acceptance of Mary's Immaculate Conception, which wasn't even definitively proclaimed as dogma by the Catholic Church until 1854. Concerning this question there is some dispute, over the technical aspects of medieval theories of conception and the soul, and whether or not Luther later changed his mind. Even some eminent Lutheran scholars, however, such as Arthur Carl Piepkorn (1907-73) of Concordia Seminary in St. Louis, maintain his unswerving acceptance of the doctrine. Luther's words follow:

It is a sweet and pious belief that the infusion of Mary's soul was effected without original sin; so that in the very infusion of her soul she was also purified from original sin and adorned with God's gifts, receiving a pure soul infused by God; thus from the first moment she began to live she was free from all sin" (Sermon: "On the Day of the Conception of the Mother of God," 1527).

She is full of grace, proclaimed to be entirely without sin—something exceedingly great. For God's grace fills her with everything good and makes her devoid of all evil. (Personal {"Little"} Prayer Book, 1522).

Later references to the Immaculate Conception appear in his House sermon for Christmas (1533) and Against the Papacy of Rome (1545). In later life (he died in 1546), Luther did not believe that this doctrine should be imposed on all believers, since he felt that the Bible didn't explicitly and formally teach it. Such a view is consistent with his notion of sola Scriptura and is similar to his opinion on the bodily Assumption of the Virgin, which he never denied—although he was highly critical of what he felt were excesses in the celebration of this Feast. In his sermon of August 15, 1522, the last time he preached on the Feast of the Assumption, he stated:

There can he no doubt that the Virgin Mary is in heaven. How it happened we do not know. And since the Holy Spirit has told us nothing about it, we can make of it no article of faith... It is enough to know that she lives in Christ.

Luther held to the idea and devotional practice of the veneration of Mary and expressed this on innumerable occasions with the most effusive language:

The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart. (Sermon, September 1, 1522).

[She is the] highest woman and the noblest gem in Christianity after Christ. ..She is nobility, wisdom, and holiness personified. We can never honor her enough. Still honor and praise must be given to her in such a way as to injure neither Christ nor the Scriptures. (Sermon, Christmas, 1531).

No woman is like you. You are more than Eve or Sarah, blessed above all nobility, wisdom, and sanctity. (Sermon, Feast of the Visitation. 1537).

One should honor Mary as she herself wished and as she expressed it in the Magnificat. She praised God for his deeds. How then can we praise her? The true honor of Mary is the honor of God, the praise of God's grace.. .Mary is nothing for the sake of herself, but for the sake of Christ...Mary does not wish that we come to her, but through her to God. (Explanation of the Magnificat, 1521).

Luther goes even further, and gives the Blessed Virgin the exalted position of "Spiritual Mother" for Christians, much the same as in Catholic piety:

It is the consolation and the superabundant goodness of God, that man is able to exult in such a treasure. Mary is his true Mother, Christ is his brother. God is his father. (Sermon. Christmas, 1522)

Mary is the Mother of Jesus and the Mother of all of us even though it was Christ alone who reposed on her knees...If he is ours, we ought to be in his situation; there where he is, we ought also to be and all that he has ought to be ours, and his mother is also our mother. (Sermon, Christmas, 1529).

Luther did strongly condemn any devotional practices which implied that Mary was in any way equal to our Lord or that she took anything away from His sole sufficiency as our Savior. This is, and always has been, the official teaching of the Catholic Church. Unfortunately, Luther often "threw out the baby with the bath water," when it came to criticizing erroneous emphases and opinions which were prevalent in his time—falsely equating them with Church doctrine. His attitude towards the use of the "Hail Mary" prayer (the first portion of the Rosary) is illustrative. In certain polemical utterances he appears to condemn its recitation altogether, but he is only forbidding a use of Marian devotions apart from heartfelt faith, as the following two citations make clear:

Whoever possesses a good (firm) faith, says the Hail Mary without danger! Whoever is weak in faith can utter no Hail Mary without danger to his salvation. (Sermon, March 11, 1523).

Our prayer should include the Mother of God.. .What the Hail Mary says is that all glory should be given to God, using these words: "Hail Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus Christ. Amen!" You see that these words are not concerned with prayer but purely with giving praise and honor.. .We can use the Hail Mary as a meditation in which we recite what grace God has given her. Second, we should add a wish that everyone may know and respect her...He who has no faith is advised to refrain from saying the Hail Mary. (Personal Prayer Book, 1522).

To summarize, it is apparent that Luther was extraordinarily devoted to the Blessed Virgin Mary, which is notable in light of his aversion to so many other "Papist" or "Romish" doctrines, as he was wont to describe them. His major departure occurs with regard to the intercession and invocation of the saints, which he denied, in accord with the earliest systematic Lutheran creed, the Augsburg Confession of 1530 (Article 21).

His views of Mary as Mother of God and as ever-Virgin were identical to those in Catholicism, and his opinions on the Immaculate Conception, Mary's "Spiritual Motherhood" and the use of the "Hail Mary" were substantially the same. He didn't deny the Assumption (he certainly didn't hesitate to rail against doctrines he opposed!), and venerated Mary in a very touching fashion which, as far as it goes, is not at all contrary to Catholic piety.

Therefore, it can be stated without fear of contradiction that Luther's Mariology is very close to that of the Catholic Church today, far more than it is to the theology of modern-day Lutheranism. To the extent that this fact is dealt with at all by Protestants, it is usually explained as a "holdover" from the early Luther's late medieval Augustinian Catholic views ("everyone has their blind spots," etc.). But this will not do for those who are serious about consulting Luther in order to arrive at the true "Reformation heritage" and the roots of an authentic Protestantism. For if Luther's views here can be so easily rationalized away, how can the Protestant know whether he is trustworthy relative to his other innovative doctrines such as extrinsic justification by faith alone and sola Scriptura?

It appears, once again, that the truth about important historical figures is almost invariably more complex than the "legends" and overly-simplistic generalizations which men often at the remove of centuries—create and accept uncritically.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Ecumenism; History; Theology
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Dave Armstrong was received into the Catholic Church in 1991 from Evangelical Protestantism. His complete conversion story can be found in Surprised by Truth.
1 posted on 08/24/2014 4:45:06 PM PDT by NKP_Vet
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To: NKP_Vet; x_plus_one; Patton@Bastogne; Oldeconomybuyer; RightField; aposiopetic; rbmillerjr; ...

My soul magnifies the Lord,
And my spirit rejoices in God my Savior.
For He has regarded the low estate of His handmaiden,
For behold, henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
For He who is mighty has done great things for me, and holy is His name. And His mercy is on those who fear Him from generation to generation.
He has shown strength with His arm:
He has scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts.
He has put down the mighty from their thrones,
and exalted those of low degree.
He has filled the hungry with good things;
and the rich He has sent empty away.
He has helped His servant Israel, in remembrance of His mercy;
As He spoke to our fathers, to Abraham and to His posterity forever.

Glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit.
As it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen

Magníficat ánima mea Dóminum,
et exsultávit spíritus meus
in Deo salvatóre meo,
quia respéxit humilitátem
ancíllæ suæ.

Ecce enim ex hoc beátam
me dicent omnes generatiónes,
quia fecit mihi magna,
qui potens est,
et sanctum nomen eius,
et misericórdia eius in progénies
et progénies timéntibus eum.
Fecit poténtiam in bráchio suo,
dispérsit supérbos mente cordis sui;
depósuit poténtes de sede
et exaltávit húmiles.
Esuriéntes implévit bonis
et dívites dimísit inánes.
Suscépit Ísrael púerum suum,
recordátus misericórdiæ,
sicut locútus est ad patres nostros,
Ábraham et sémini eius in sæcula.

Glória Patri et Fílio
et Spirítui Sancto.
Sicut erat in princípio,
et nunc et semper,
et in sæcula sæculórum.

Amen.

She became the Mother of God, in which work so many and such great good things are bestowed on her as pass man’s understanding. For on this there follows all honor, all blessedness, and her unique place in the whole of mankind, among which she has no equal, namely, that she had a child by the Father in heaven, and such a Child . . . Hence men have crowded all her glory into a single word, calling her the Mother of God . . . None can say of her nor announce to her greater things, even though he had as many tongues as the earth possesses flowers and blades of grass: the sky, stars; and the sea, grains of sand. It needs to be pondered in the heart what it means to be the Mother of God.

(Commentary on the Magnificat, 1521; in Luther’s Works, Pelikan et al, vol. 21, 326)


2 posted on 08/24/2014 4:46:55 PM PDT by narses
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To: NKP_Vet
Interesting article, MKP_Vet.
Thanks for posting.

Father Martin Luther was an amazing man.
I had a chance some years ago to visit the famous castle where he threw his ink jar at Satan...and duly saw the ink stain on the wall.

3 posted on 08/24/2014 4:49:03 PM PDT by cloudmountain
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To: NKP_Vet

I will go with Thetans before all this man made bull.


4 posted on 08/24/2014 4:50:05 PM PDT by DariusBane (Liberty and Risk. Flip sides of the same coin. So how much risk will YOU accept? Vive Deco et Vives)
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To: NKP_Vet

But the key difference is that Luther did not consider her to be a co redemptrix.


5 posted on 08/24/2014 4:50:16 PM PDT by The Man
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To: DariusBane

bump


6 posted on 08/24/2014 4:50:46 PM PDT by GeronL (Vote for Conservatives not for Republicans)
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To: NKP_Vet
Martin Luther's Devotion to Mary
Essays for Lent: Mary Ever-Virgin
Why is the perpetual virginity of Mary so important to Catholics? [Ecumenical Vanity]
Is the Perpetual Virginity of Mary a Biblical View?
Aeiparthenos (An Anglo-Catholic Priest on Mary's Perpetual Virginity)
The Heõs Hou polemic is over: Radio Debate Matatics VS White & Svendsen on Perpetual Virginity Mary
The Early Church Fathers on Mary’s Perpetual Virginity - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus
The Heõs Hou polemic is over: Radio Debate Matatics VS White & Svendsen on Perpetual Virginity Mary
Luther, Calvin, and Other Early Protestants on the Perpetual Virginity of Mary
Luther, Calvin, and Other Early Protestants on the Perpetual Virginity of Mary
7 posted on 08/24/2014 4:51:21 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: The Man

Neither do Catholics.


8 posted on 08/24/2014 4:52:23 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: NKP_Vet

The fact that the RC Church gives Mary the title, ‘Mother of God’ makes Protestants believe that it considers Mary to be divine.

That misunderstanding will never be resolved.


9 posted on 08/24/2014 4:59:12 PM PDT by 353FMG
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To: NKP_Vet

There is a Jewish perspective to Mary but I shall hold my own council on it.


10 posted on 08/24/2014 5:02:55 PM PDT by SkyDancer (I Was Told Nobody Is Perfect But Yet, Here I Am)
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To: NKP_Vet

you guys are something else. back luther when you like him, and anathematize him when you don’t.

you guys are the very same that will start talking about his later years to discredit him.

you can’t use your own prior discredited source to then back up your points.


11 posted on 08/24/2014 5:15:26 PM PDT by Secret Agent Man ( Gone Galt; Not averse to Going Bronson.)
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To: NKP_Vet

Thankfully, God used dear Luther to recover His Gospel of Grace!

For this, every true believer should be thankful for Luther... And overlook his many failures.


12 posted on 08/24/2014 5:23:54 PM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion ( "I didn't leave the Central Oligarchy Party. It left me." - Ronaldus Maximus)
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To: cloudmountain
Father Martin Luther was an amazing man.

Martin Luther was a heretic and a tool of Satan.

13 posted on 08/24/2014 5:28:35 PM PDT by ebb tide
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To: The Man
But the key difference is that Luther did not consider her to be a co redemptrix.

Bingo--or as Luther would have put it, "Volltreffer!"

14 posted on 08/24/2014 5:28:45 PM PDT by chajin ("There is no other name under heaven given among people by which we must be saved." Acts 4:12)
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To: ebb tide

“Martin Luther was a heretic and a tool of Satan”.

True.


15 posted on 08/24/2014 5:31:48 PM PDT by NKP_Vet
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To: NKP_Vet

Prior to Vatican I, many Lutheran synods had a greater focus on St. Mary. After the new dogma of the immaculate conception, most down played Mary


16 posted on 08/24/2014 5:32:42 PM PDT by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
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To: cloudmountain
Celebrating an Apocalyptic Plague
17 posted on 08/24/2014 5:36:05 PM PDT by ebb tide
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To: ebb tide

You could not have put it better. Hillaire Belloc refers to the evils of Protestantism that unlike other heresies spawned a “cluster of heresies.”


18 posted on 08/24/2014 5:52:51 PM PDT by Steelfish (ui)
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To: 353FMG

She became the Mother of God, in which work so many and such great good things are bestowed on her as pass man’s understanding. For on this there follows all honor, all blessedness, and her unique place in the whole of mankind, among which she has no equal, namely, that she had a child by the Father in heaven, and such a Child . . . Hence men have crowded all her glory into a single word, calling her the Mother of God . . . None can say of her nor announce to her greater things, even though he had as many tongues as the earth possesses flowers and blades of grass: the sky, stars; and the sea, grains of sand. It needs to be pondered in the heart what it means to be the Mother of God.

(Commentary on the Magnificat, 1521; in Luther’s Works, Pelikan et al, vol. 21, 326)


19 posted on 08/24/2014 5:53:58 PM PDT by narses
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To: ebb tide

Martin Luther was a heretic and a tool of Satan.....

Now how do you know that? What doctrine points a finger at him as being from satan?

How do you know that Luther was not an instrument of God’s will to redirect the church?


20 posted on 08/24/2014 5:54:16 PM PDT by WILLIALAL
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To: 353FMG

Is Jesus the second person of the Trinity, the Son of God?

Is Mary his mother?

Simple as that?


21 posted on 08/24/2014 6:16:47 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: SkyDancer

What counsel will you private council give you?


22 posted on 08/24/2014 6:17:27 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

Christians, Catholics in general have their views on Mary. I’m saying we Jews have a different view is all. For me to espouse what we believe here on your thread would be counter productive .....


23 posted on 08/24/2014 6:31:56 PM PDT by SkyDancer (I Was Told Nobody Is Perfect But Yet, Here I Am)
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To: SkyDancer

Some day that issue would make an interesting thread. Thanks for your answer.


24 posted on 08/24/2014 6:38:18 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: WILLIALAL
Now how do you know that?

Check out the link in Post 17.

25 posted on 08/24/2014 6:42:33 PM PDT by ebb tide
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To: WILLIALAL
"What doctrine points a finger at him as being from satan?"

1) The assertion that marriage is a State concern, not something God ordained
2) Throwing out seven books of the Bible, books Jesus Christ and the Apostles quoted from and never once said were in any way any different than the other books of the Bible
3) Scripture Alone which is clearly contradicted in Scripture
4) Faith Alone which is clearly contradicted in Scripture
5) Denial that there is a seperate priesthood when Scripture clearly teaches otherwise and warns us against falling into the heresy of Core as Luther taught and Protestants accept in spite of Scripture
6) Denial that The One True Church is founded on Peter

There's more but anyone who refuses to dig into those above isn't going to care about the rest any more than they care about anything other than defining their own version of Christ to suit their own version of Christianity.

26 posted on 08/24/2014 7:13:59 PM PDT by Rashputin (Jesus Christ doesn't evacuate His troops, He leads them to victory.)
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To: narses

The explanation is even simpler than that.

When Mary was pregnant with Jesus, His Entire Being resided in her womb — not just His humanity but also His divinity.

Christ received His humanity through Mary (all humans have mommies) but His divinity was ‘From the Beginning....’.

The two natures fully resided within the Fetus Mary carried, and she can therefore rightfully be assigned the title ‘Mother of God’ without herself being divine.


27 posted on 08/24/2014 7:21:04 PM PDT by 353FMG
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To: Salvation

I read your thread ....


28 posted on 08/24/2014 7:27:38 PM PDT by SkyDancer (I Was Told Nobody Is Perfect But Yet, Here I Am)
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To: ebb tide; NKP_Vet; cloudmountain; metmom; Gamecock; daniel1212; BlueDragon
Martin Luther was a heretic and a tool of Satan. 

If the man was a tool of Satan, maybe his belief in the perpetual virginity of Mary was part of Satan's doing.

29 posted on 08/24/2014 7:53:09 PM PDT by Alex Murphy ("the defacto Leader of the FR Calvinist Protestant Brigades")
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To: aMorePerfectUnion

The Papacy is not only rooted in Scripture, it is safeguarded by Scripture’s Author: the Holy Spirit.


30 posted on 08/24/2014 9:03:25 PM PDT by NKP_Vet
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To: Secret Agent Man
I agree! I think it is a form of schizophrenia. They can't make up their minds what they think about a man who died nearly five hundred years ago - as if he controls/controlled everything pertaining to "Protestantism". Few will even bother to read Luther's actual writings or understand that, as he grew and developed in the Christ-centered faith, the less emphasis he placed on talking about Mary. He came to realize that, as a young Catholic boy and then priest and monk he had been taught to fear Christ as a terrible judge and that Mary represented a go-between of mercy, yet, the closer he got to Christ the more he understood that Christ needed no go-between and that he WAS merciful and gracious. He said:

    Christ is not so much a judge and an angry God but one who bears and carries our sins, a mediator. Away with the papists, who have set Christ before us as a terrible judge and have turned the saints into intercessors! There they have added fuel to the fire. By nature we are already afraid of God. Blessed therefore are those who as uncorrupted young people arrived at this understanding, that they can say: “I only knew Jesus Christ as the bearer of my sins. [Martin Luther, Luther’s Works, 17:224.]

31 posted on 08/24/2014 9:17:20 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: Rashputin; WILLIALAL
Those "points" HAVE BEEN dug into numerous times, you just refuse to accept the answers. Case in point, Luther NEVER "threw out" those Apocryphal books from his German translation. In fact, if you got a copy of it, you would see they WERE still there. You have been pointed to links that disputed this before, did you forget or did you refuse to read them, too?
32 posted on 08/24/2014 9:24:54 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: boatbums
To be consistent, then, you standard means that someone who denies Jesus Christ is the Son of God isn't "throwing out" Jesus Christ.

Have a nice day

33 posted on 08/24/2014 9:29:10 PM PDT by Rashputin (Jesus Christ doesn't evacuate His troops, He leads them to victory.)
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To: NKP_Vet

“The Papacy is not only rooted in Scripture, it is safeguarded by Scripture’s Author: the Holy Spirit.”

Neither is Biblical, friend. Nor do hundreds of millions believe either.

Best to you.


34 posted on 08/24/2014 9:29:56 PM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion ( "I didn't leave the Central Oligarchy Party. It left me." - Ronaldus Maximus)
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To: aMorePerfectUnion

Mt 16


35 posted on 08/24/2014 9:31:50 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: boatbums
Going to my book shelf :

Luther Bible (1534).

Title to Apocrypha: "APOCRYPHA, that is, Books which are not to be esteemed like the Holy Scriptures, and yet which are useful and good to read."

From a reprint of Luther's Bible.

Continue to split hairs over whether they were bound in printed volume at the insistence of his pal Phil all you like but Luther denied they were the inspired Word of God.

That is, in fact, throwing them out of Scripture and putting them on par with fairy tales; good to read by not inspired by the Holy Spirit.

Say hello to Gilligan

36 posted on 08/24/2014 9:48:39 PM PDT by Rashputin (Jesus Christ doesn't evacuate His troops, He leads them to victory.)
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To: Rashputin
You're the one making statements you cannot back up. You stated:

Throwing out seven books of the Bible, books Jesus Christ and the Apostles quoted from and never once said were in any way any different than the other books of the Bible

Luther did NOT "throw out" those books AND he was hardly alone in esteeming them as he did. Even Jerome held them that way. Regarding Luther's translation, it is prefaced with,

“In keeping with early Christian tradition, Luther also included the Apocrypha of the Old Testament. Sorting them out of the canonical books, he appended them at the end of the Old Testament with the caption, ‘These books are not held equal to the Scriptures, but are useful and good to read.’”

Also, “In providing prefaces for the books in the German Bible, Luther was simply following a traditional practice. The inclusion of a prologue illuminating the main thoughts of a treatise was a practice associated with the best in scholarly exposition as far back as Aristotle. Jerome’s Vulgate had prefaces to almost every book in the Bible, plus others for groups of books such as Paul’s epistles and the seven catholic epistles.... The second edition of Erasmus’ New Testament in 1518 began with one hundred twenty folio pages of introductory material.” [(http://tquid.sharpens.org/Luther_%20canon.htm#a2)

37 posted on 08/24/2014 9:58:44 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: Rashputin

Are you not feeling well tonight? Jumping to silly conclusions and rushing to unfounded judgments can wear one out, you know.


38 posted on 08/24/2014 10:00:54 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: The Man

I had a big issue with this doctrine when I first heard of it. Apparently, co-redemptrix literally means “with the redeemer” the doctrine refers to her remaining with Jesus (i.e. sticking by his side) throughout her life. It is not, apparently, supposed to be interpreted in the same fashion as more common terms like “co-owner” that assumes an equal partnership.


39 posted on 08/24/2014 10:16:35 PM PDT by Bill93
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To: boatbums
Luther and Protestants deny that a large portion of the inspired Word of God is in fact His Word. PERIOD.

Excuseitis may now continue but it does not alter the fact that throwing a large portion of His Holy Scripture in the garbage is nothing less than asserting that the Holy Spirit is imperfect, cannot, and did not, protect His Holy Word from the inclusion of error for nearly eighteen hundred years.

Throwing those books in the garbage amounts to asserting that the Holy Spirit cannot possibly be a part of the the Trinity.

Have a nice day

40 posted on 08/24/2014 10:17:26 PM PDT by Rashputin (Jesus Christ doesn't evacuate His troops, He leads them to victory.)
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To: NKP_Vet

I grew up in a Lutheran family and later became Catholic. The Mariology might not be “as strong” in the Lutheran church as in the Catholic Church, but most of these views held by Luther aren’t exactly new to me, and the one’s that are, aren’t particularly shocking. Even as a kid, I was always more shocked by the things members of other Protestants denominations said about Mary, than anything I read or heard about Catholic teaching. I’d say that even today Mary is held in high regard in the Lutheran church even if it isn’t nearly as apparent as it is in Catholicism.


41 posted on 08/24/2014 10:23:02 PM PDT by Bill93
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To: boatbums
ROTFLOL. Straight forward facts are not "silly conclusions".

Luther accepted the very same anti-Christ, anti-Christian, Pharisees that Jesus Christ condemned as his final authority.

Therefore, those who also accept the anti-Christ, anti-Christian, Pharisee Approved Luther Subset of Scripture are at best deluded heretics who follow in the footsteps of the Pharisees rather than following Jesus Christ, and more often than not, simply following of their own personal preferences the way Eve followed her own preferences rather than following of Christ.

Have a very nice day

42 posted on 08/24/2014 10:28:56 PM PDT by Rashputin (Jesus Christ doesn't evacuate His troops, He leads them to victory.)
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To: NKP_Vet

You know the Blessed Virgin has her own book in the Qu’ran as well? I know that surprised me, a lot. She is literally the only woman mentioned by name, but she’s mentioned frequently.

There is something about the ideal of a pure and chaste and good woman that seems to resonate in people.


43 posted on 08/25/2014 3:38:14 AM PDT by EC1
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To: ebb tide
Martin Luther was a heretic and a tool of Satan.

And these men?????

Top 10 Most Wicked Popes

http://listverse.com/2007/08/17/top-10-most-wicked-popes/

1. Liberius, reigned 352-66 [Catholic Encyclopaedia]
2. Honorius I, reigned 625-638 [Catholic Encyclopaedia]
3. Stephen VI, reigned 896-89 [Catholic Encyclopaedia]
4. John XII, reigned 955-964 [Catholic Encyclopaedia]
5. Benedict IX, reigned 1032-1048 [Catholic Encyclopaedia]
6. Boniface VIII, reigned 1294-1303 [Catholic Encyclopaedia]
7. Urban VI, reigned 1378-1389 [Catholic Encyclopaedia]
8. Alexander VI, reigned 1492-1503 [Catholic Encyclopaedia]
9. Leo X, reigned 1513-1521 [Catholic Encyclopaedia]
10. Clement VII, reigned 1523-1524 [Catholic Encyclopaedia]

Top 10 Worst Popes in History

http://www.toptenz.net/top-10-worst-popes-in-history.php

1. Pope Alexander VI (1431 – 1503)
2. Pope John XII (c. 937 – 964)
3. Pope Benedict IX (c. 1012 – 1065/85)
4. Pope Sergius III (? – 911)
5. Pope Stephen VI (? – 897)
6. Pope Julius III (1487 – 1555)
7. Pope Urban II (ca. 1035 – 1099)
8. Pope Clement VI (1291 – 1352)
9. Pope Leo X (1475 – 1521)
10. Pope Boniface VIII (c. 1235 – 1303)

44 posted on 08/25/2014 3:55:35 AM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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To: Salvation
The argument that *Mary is the mother of Jesus and Jesus is God therefore Mary is the mother of God*, leads to the following conclusions using the same (for lack of a better term) *logic*:

If Mary is the mother of God and the Father is God, then Mary is the mother of God the Father.

If Mary is the mother of God and the Holy Spirit is God, then Mary is the mother of God the Holy Spirit.

That puts Mary above the Godhead, makes Mary deity, makes her the mother of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, making them created, finite beings with beginning.

It totally messes up all kinds of theology.

Do Catholics EVER think through what they have been spoon fed for their entire lives, cause it sure doesn't look that way with the arguments they use.

I'll stick with agreeing with the Holy Spirit in what He inspired in Scripture: *Mary, the mother of Jesus*.

That way, I KNOW I can't be wrong.

In Scripture, the Holy Spirit is clear in calling her *mother of Jesus*.

John 2:1 On the third day there was a wedding at Cana in Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there.

John 2:3 When the wine ran out, the mother of Jesus said to him, “They have no wine.”

Acts 1:14 All these with one accord were devoting themselves to prayer, together with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and his brothers.

45 posted on 08/25/2014 3:59:50 AM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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To: boatbums

They want to hate Luther and will find any excuse to do so, even if they have to make something up.

You’ve shown them the facts, time and again, and still, there are some who continue to recite the same old mantras about Luther and the Apocrypha.

All the facts in the world will not convince someone whose mind is made up and will not believe.

Thanks for trying, though. Those kinds of inaccurate statements need to be exposed and corrected.


46 posted on 08/25/2014 4:08:00 AM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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To: ebb tide

Thank you.


47 posted on 08/25/2014 4:08:21 AM PDT by piusv
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To: Secret Agent Man; NKP_Vet
you guys are something else. back luther when you like him, and anathematize him when you don’t.

In one sense, I can see what the OP is doing because even those who are heretics can also agree on certain other Catholic truths.

OTOH, I agree with you. As a Traditional Catholic I would never use a heretic as support for Catholic truths.

48 posted on 08/25/2014 4:16:33 AM PDT by piusv
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To: metmom

The view is that the only way to salvation is through the Pope (or rather a mythic perfect Pope since the last few don’t pass the mustard).

What is funny is that this was meant to be an attack on Lutherans today, who are probably very familiar with this material, and other non Lutheran Protestants, who couldn’t care less.


49 posted on 08/25/2014 6:18:44 AM PDT by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
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To: NKP_Vet

Thankfully, God used dear Luther to recover His Gospel of Grace!

For this, every true believer should be thankful for Luther... And overlook his many failures.


50 posted on 08/25/2014 6:39:46 AM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion ( "I didn't leave the Central Oligarchy Party. It left me." - Ronaldus Maximus)
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