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Dear Mr. Gothard
redemptionpictures.com/ ^ | 8 July 2014 | Heather E. Corcoran

Posted on 08/26/2014 10:53:34 AM PDT by DariusBane

You would see me across the room when we arrived on Saturday night for staff dinner. You’d signal to me in a personal and private way that you wanted me to sit with you. And you always positioned me just directly across from you. You’d slide your feet out of your shoes and play footsies with me. You would use your feet to feel But rather than offering that protection, you exploited that situation. You asked me to tell you how it felt. To tell you if my body was aroused by their touches. You wanted vivid details. But you didn’t just want them once. For months, we had the same conversations. Repeatedly. Alone. No parent sitting in. No accountability for you. No protection for me.

You violated me in your own way by repeatedly demanding me to talk about those graphic sexual acts with you. You taught me that there are no “victims” in sexual abuse; only people who have un-confessed sin in their life and are now receiving their own. You taught me to feel shame for my body’s sexual responses. You held me responsible for what they’d done to me, telling me that if I did not comply with our “counseling sessions”, you would have no choice but to take my situation to the local authorities. You coerced me. ...my calves and knees and feet all the while, smiling warmly and winking at me in those fractions of a second when no one was watching.

As an adult now – and especially as a parent of daughters – I have gone through tremendous sadness for my young self that there simply was not within me the red lights that should have been flashing. Something inside of me was not right and you were the one who impeded

(Excerpt) Read more at redemptionpictures.com ...


TOPICS: Evangelical Christian; Ministry/Outreach; Moral Issues; Religion & Culture
KEYWORDS: abuse; cult; religious; sexual
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Bill Gothard, this is a story about him as told by one of his victims.

Bill Gothard is the man behind the Duggers.

1 posted on 08/26/2014 10:53:34 AM PDT by DariusBane
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To: DariusBane

BTW,

Heather was 11 years old when this started.


2 posted on 08/26/2014 10:54:12 AM PDT by DariusBane (Liberty and Risk. Flip sides of the same coin. So how much risk will YOU accept? Vive Deco et Vives)
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To: DariusBane

Are you accusing the Duggers by Guilt by Association?


3 posted on 08/26/2014 11:07:51 AM PDT by SoConPubbie (Mitt and Obama: They're the same poison, just a different potency)
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To: SoConPubbie
 

Are you accusing the Duggers by Guilt by Association?

He certainly is

He's been trolling this thread for hours. The Duggars are scum.

 

4 posted on 08/26/2014 11:08:54 AM PDT by Responsibility2nd (NO LIBS. This Means Liberals and (L)libertarians! Same Thing. NO LIBS!!)
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To: SoConPubbie

They are a big big part of that “ministry”. They are personal friends of BG. Anybody remotely connected with that “ministry” knows that the current scandal is a repeat of the 1980 scandal.

The Duggers are at the very least complicate by there silence and participation.

They are cultists and should be treated with the same skepticism given the Hubbardites.


5 posted on 08/26/2014 11:25:55 AM PDT by DariusBane (Liberty and Risk. Flip sides of the same coin. So how much risk will YOU accept? Vive Deco et Vives)
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To: Responsibility2nd

If trolling means exposing cockroaches to sunlight then I am guilty as charged.


6 posted on 08/26/2014 11:27:16 AM PDT by DariusBane (Liberty and Risk. Flip sides of the same coin. So how much risk will YOU accept? Vive Deco et Vives)
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To: DariusBane
So what? Bill Gothard is a man. Men are never perfect and many a preacher has fallen into sin. It does not make the Bible any less the word of God.

If the Duggers(whoever they are) are preaching something un-Biblical then go after that. The logic of lumping one man's sin on all of an organization is beyond idiotic.

7 posted on 08/26/2014 11:32:16 AM PDT by Lady Heron
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To: DariusBane
They are cultists

Really? How are they cultist? What is their Biblical lie they teach or do you need to learn what a Christian cult is?

8 posted on 08/26/2014 11:34:04 AM PDT by Lady Heron
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To: Lady Heron

Yes BG is a man.

His ministry has gone on since 1980 when sex allegations first came up. His ministry perpetrates a closed cycle loop of abuse, control, cover up.

So yeah if you want to just look the other way, go ahead. I won’t.


9 posted on 08/26/2014 11:35:35 AM PDT by DariusBane (Liberty and Risk. Flip sides of the same coin. So how much risk will YOU accept? Vive Deco et Vives)
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To: Lady Heron

How are they cultist?

A closed society with strict internal confidentiality enforced with shamming, exclusion, and sometimes imprisonment.

Special knowledge, hidden scripture meaning, restrictions on associations.

Special dress, special rules, one special guy at the top who “can do no wrong”.


10 posted on 08/26/2014 11:37:40 AM PDT by DariusBane (Liberty and Risk. Flip sides of the same coin. So how much risk will YOU accept? Vive Deco et Vives)
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To: Lady Heron

A whole lot of people at this web site will open your eyes if they can be opened.


11 posted on 08/26/2014 11:38:52 AM PDT by DariusBane (Liberty and Risk. Flip sides of the same coin. So how much risk will YOU accept? Vive Deo et Vives)
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To: Lady Heron

Sorry, forgot the link

http://www.recoveringgrace.org/


12 posted on 08/26/2014 11:40:04 AM PDT by DariusBane (Liberty and Risk. Flip sides of the same coin. So how much risk will YOU accept? Vive Deo et Vives)
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To: DariusBane

I haven’t the faintest idea what this thread is about.


13 posted on 08/26/2014 12:37:41 PM PDT by eCSMaster ("Your apathy is their power." - Sarah Palin Jul 19, 2014)
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To: Lady Heron

I just read this article in its entirety and it is appalling.

This *BG is a man and sinner just like the rest of us* meme is the EXACT same one Catholics use to defend their pederast priests.

You can lump one man’s sin on an organization when HE is it and runs it.


14 posted on 08/26/2014 1:36:21 PM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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To: DariusBane

I went to IBYP a couple times.

When we homeschooled, we had friends who did his homeschooling program and they fit right in with that cult mentality about how children were supposed to behave, etc. They had all the answers.

Turns out one of their sons moved away from home as a young man and was living with his girlfriend and had rented a separate apartment that he claimed he was living in and his parents thought he was really living there the whole time he was living with his girlfriend.

Clearly, God spared us from getting sucked into what he had to offer.

After reading this article, I am going to find all our materials and shred or burn them or somehow dispose of them.


15 posted on 08/26/2014 1:41:03 PM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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To: metmom

BG exerted so much control over individuals and was so highly regarded and revered that is impossible to seperate the man from the org or its teaching. Shameful that evangelicals failed to Police him. Charles Stanley stood up for him as did Bob Jones, Gary Smalley and others.


16 posted on 08/26/2014 1:57:26 PM PDT by DariusBane (Liberty and Risk. Flip sides of the same coin. So how much risk will YOU accept? Vive Deo et Vives)
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To: metmom

This *BG is a man and sinner just like the rest of us* meme is the EXACT same one Catholics use to defend their pederast priests.

...gee, what do you know...it’s the same exact thing Protestants do when defending their pederasts and homosexuals...we could go on and on, couldn’t we...?


17 posted on 08/26/2014 2:58:32 PM PDT by IrishBrigade (')
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To: IrishBrigade

Which Protestant do you see defending pederast and homosexual Prots?


18 posted on 08/26/2014 3:47:27 PM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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To: metmom
I am not defending the man in the least!

Are you saying all Catholics believe in abusing children the way a few priest have done and thus being Catholic is a cult?

What I said is unless the Duggards(whoever they are) are preach something that puts them in the cult status then stop painting all of them with the same brush.

You can not say all Catholics are evil because of a few evil men, nor all Baptist are evil because one preacher is evil or Church of Christ, Presbyterian etc.!

I think if you take a step back and think logically you could get the point.

19 posted on 08/26/2014 6:15:06 PM PDT by Lady Heron
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To: metmom
Which Protestant do you see defending pederast and homosexual Prots?

this is a situation, FAR more prevelant in Prot denominations than in Catholicism...which Prot denominations have gotten together, admitted their lack of attention to this problem, and paid out hundreds of millions of dollars to their "victims"??? The Prots, of course, are not a single entity that can be sued and therefore could ignore this whole situation with impunity. That, of course, in no way diminishes their acceptance and lack of concern.....it just basically absolves them of responsibility to the victims....pathetic.

20 posted on 08/26/2014 6:19:55 PM PDT by terycarl
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To: DariusBane
Seriously, try reading up on what the definition of a Christian cult is.

Are all the men being taught his behavior that have gone through that ministry because I have seen no evidence of it or even run across that type of behavior from the people I know who participated in ATIA.

I can only tell you that they were some of the most impressive and remember-able families I ever ran across home schooling and I ran across all kinds.

While he might be a complete and total idiot the people who went through his program I met were impressive.

21 posted on 08/26/2014 6:21:16 PM PDT by Lady Heron
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To: metmom

I went to one of his seminars while I was still a student at Moody Bible Institute. I learned some useful things, but never even knew he was regarded beyond measure by anyone. I was very naive in those days.

Which is why church discipline is so important. Lots of people in church are naive and idealistic about their leadership, and the elders have a duty to protect them. Groups of any kind, including churches, tend to become defensive of their own folks, and that can lead to some very poor judgment. Better to follow the path set forth in Scripture and endure the pain of temporary chastisement, than to allow evil to fester within the church.

But church discipline is harder to apply to these parachurch organizations. The entity can run on its own, so its not really accountable to a local assembly. That’s bad. That leaves distant third parties trying to intervene in things they have little to no knowledge of, and with no personal investment in the outcome.

So of recent times I have a diminished regard for these churchless ministries. I was in a church once where a pastor fell into sexual sin. They followed the Matthew 25 protocol, dealt with it openly, and did not hesitate, though with sorrow, to defrock the young man. In a culture like that, this error of defending the indefensible becomes much more difficult, and though it carries some short term pain, is really better for everyone.

Peace,

SR


22 posted on 08/26/2014 6:26:56 PM PDT by Springfield Reformer (Winston Churchill: No Peace Till Victory!)
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To: DariusBane
Hey cool, go back and read what you wrote because by you definition Amish and horse and buggy Mennonites are cultist.

Seriously, I begin to wonder what the bee in your bonnet is about these people because you do not know all you think you know to begin with or even how much of some of the things you bash is voluntary.

Special knowledge(not true)

hidden scripture meaning(Not true)

restrictions on associations(not true useless you considered yourself week and easily led and then voluntary and highly encouraged(sort of sounds like commons sense to me(gee, I kind of remember teaching my sons to stay away from bad people because they might lead them into trouble, oh no, I am a cultist....ahhhh!)).

Special dress(voluntary, many ATIA families you would not know by looking at them you are in there presence)

special rules(like what?)

one special guy at the top who “can do no wrong”(gee, if these people only went to one denomination that might ring true but I knew ATIA families that went to Brethren churches all the way to Holy Roller Churches, does not sound like total control to me)

Seriously, have you ever had any contact with the wide variety of Christians that went through ATIA or Basic Training???

Granted I knew many and had access to a wide variety because I ran a home schooling network once but you have way missed the mark with your anger and lack of knowledge.

23 posted on 08/26/2014 6:39:23 PM PDT by Lady Heron
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To: terycarl; metmom

“far more prevalent” ?

I doubt it. It’s a statistical matter. Find me some real numbers and I’m betting they show the incidence of sexual sin is approximately equal across the board, denominationally. There will be a certain percentage in any population that cannot keep their lusts from, shall we say, fully materializing.

But this “who does it the most” contest I think misses the point MM was originally making, which is not about the numbers, but the excuses offered. And that’s a valid point. Any of us who are jealous for the good name of Christ and His people cannot fall into the trap of rationalizing this awful behavior by those in leadership. It is intolerable. Too many souls for whom Christ died hang in the balance. We need to get back our capacity for shame and outrage. These wolves creep in for lack of fear. They need to get their fear back.


24 posted on 08/26/2014 6:42:20 PM PDT by Springfield Reformer (Winston Churchill: No Peace Till Victory!)
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To: metmom
You can lump one man’s sin on an organization when HE is it and runs it.

This is not the Branch Dividians. A man with total control over his flock teaching an corruption of the Bible.

This is a Bible course and a home schooling program where people go back to their own churches all across America and the world and live their lives and are taught weekly by their local pastors in every denomination.

Other than that, unless the Duggards or whatever they are called teaching evil or something un-Biblical, who cares how they live their Christian lives.

Seriously, I am so over some of these constant Christian bashing threads that totally miss the mark paint the whole flock of people with the sins of one man ignore years of good that has been done and are totally unChristian.

The man is a total and complete idiot in his personal life but what he wrought is the families I came across was impressive. Not for me but impressive.

25 posted on 08/26/2014 6:56:13 PM PDT by Lady Heron
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To: terycarl

Well, the Catholic church claims to be a single entity and in unity and they ignored the situation with impunity for years until the negative publicity from those who would not be coerced or intimidated into silence spoke up and took it public and FORCED the Catholic church to deal with it.

So your point is what exactly?


26 posted on 08/26/2014 6:58:18 PM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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To: Lady Heron; DariusBane

Well, then, you run with a different crowd because the people that I knew who were involved with ATI for homeschooling were brainwashed cultists.

They exactly fit the profile of the Duggers.

Scripture gives the qualifications for being a leader in the church and BG’s lifestyle and methods disqualify him from holding those positions.

Sure, some of the stuff he taught was right on, but that’s the way it is with every false teaching by the enemy.

No outright lie will stand, so it’s always mixed with truth and if it’s done *right*, makes it very difficult to separate.

Your objection to others broad-brushing Gothardites, fails, BTW, for two reasons.

One is that you yourself are broad-brushing people involved with his teaching in a positive light, instead of a negative one. And you are broad-brushing those who are speaking up against the wrong he committed and are exposing him


27 posted on 08/26/2014 7:04:10 PM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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To: terycarl; Springfield Reformer

BTW, you never answered the question which was.....

“Which Protestant do you see defending pederast and homosexual Prots?”

You simply went off on a different tangent, trying to change the subject.

You can try again to answer it. It’s still there. Show me where Prots have defended any Prot leaders who engaged in immorality. And provide the link to the post(s).


28 posted on 08/26/2014 7:09:10 PM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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Comment #29 Removed by Moderator

To: DariusBane

28 replies into the thread, and no one is volunteering to say three words about what a “Dugger” is?

Is it like an Australian soldier, but past-tense?

I get from the context that “duggers” must be some religious sect, but how about some details? Even a sentence or two?


30 posted on 08/26/2014 7:23:10 PM PDT by Larry Lucido
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To: DariusBane
Here, I'll get you started.

Duggers

Diggers

Maybe you can fill in some additional context.

31 posted on 08/26/2014 7:28:09 PM PDT by Larry Lucido
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To: Lady Heron

The problem is, many folks who are attracted to problematic groups have a tendency to be just as you describe, remarkable, exemplary, etc. The extreme regimentation of the group is what is producing all of this “wonderfulness.” I have some direct experience with cults. Not to generalize overmuch, but there is a discernible pattern. You also find this in hard sell marketing. They first discredit anything you may currently rely on for spiritual guidance. Even the Bible is not enough. You need them, and really only them. Then they love-bomb you, try to get you to think you’ve never seen so much love all in one place so this must be it, the place you and Bob Dylan and everybody else is looking for.

But then it begins. You will hear them speak of grace, but it is a fragile grace, and falls apart at the least provocation, and you not only need them to stay in good with God, but now they start to ween you away from any contact, any trust, any relationship, outside of them and the safety of their “shelter.” Then, if you let that happen, they have you, and can damage you beyond repair, apart from a miracle of true grace.

So it is an error to judge these organizations by what you see in the peripheral membership. That always looks good, by design. That’s the honey in the honey trap. Rather, look at their inner life, if you can see it. That’s where you will find the truth.

BTW, the individual I am describing here is not me, but someone I dearly love, and who, even after their escape, is still struggling with deep pain and disillusionment, years after the initial damage was done.


32 posted on 08/26/2014 7:54:32 PM PDT by Springfield Reformer (Winston Churchill: No Peace Till Victory!)
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To: metmom
We sure as heck met with different types of people.

The families my sons played with were pretty awesome and from a wide variety of denominations. While the Brethren were the strictest and we had the least contact with them, the bunch being almost Amish, I never once saw them as cultish but then I do not see the Amish that way either.

A Christian Cult screws with Biblical doctrine like mormanism or jehovah witinesses or something like the Branch Dividians and teaches a corrupt version of the Bible. Separating yourself from thing or people or wearing certain clothing to keep away from temptation like the Amish or cloistered nuns and monks does not make you into a cult.

It does not reach into each denomination from Brethren to "Spirit Filled" Churches to Catholics who do not mess with the basic Biblical teachings in the Bible.

Sorry, the families I met are not members of a cult. They were people trying to raise Christians, in a variety of denominations, to stand tall in this world that is getting more evil by the day.

I will not ever paint them as a cult because the man that started Basic seminars and ATIA was weak, they and their efforts deserve better from me.

You go ahead and paint a bunch of very good people with a wide hate filled brush. I find it ridiculous and sad.

33 posted on 08/26/2014 8:00:40 PM PDT by Lady Heron
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To: Larry Lucido

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/19_Kids_and_Counting


34 posted on 08/26/2014 8:01:53 PM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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To: Springfield Reformer
I am sorry, the people I knew went every week to very different churches getting other Biblical teaching also.

At some point human error has to be blamed for some problems.

I know I sure can not walk into my church Sunday and find very many people who have a great understanding of the Bible, let's face it after Sunday most people do not even care, and I have moved 13 times and gone to many types of denominations and I can say it about them all. I will say the one I went to for a very short time that had the largest grouping of people with a rather good Biblical understanding had the most ATIA people in it but it was also one of the smallest also, so that helps. Having 3,000 in a service sort of dumbs down the crowd and preaching.

I hate to tell you the extreme regimentation came in some, and I mean only some of their clothing but not their lives, those kids were into everything from beekeeping to national level hockey.

I think being a leader in a home schooling group it gave me a greater advantage point to see a wider variety of these families than some of you got to see or were exposed to.

35 posted on 08/26/2014 8:19:18 PM PDT by Lady Heron
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To: DariusBane

Where is he now? Was he prosecuted?


36 posted on 08/26/2014 8:19:34 PM PDT by kalee
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To: kalee

Statute of limitations in State of Illinois. Plus, his own legal team cleared him of criminal wrongdoing... Yup, he is clean. So says BG law team’s “independent finding”.


37 posted on 08/26/2014 8:31:36 PM PDT by DariusBane (Liberty and Risk. Flip sides of the same coin. So how much risk will YOU accept? Vive Deo et Vives)
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Comment #38 Removed by Moderator

To: Lady Heron

Bill Gothard himself on Rhemas or special knowledge.

http://billgothard.com/teaching/rhemas

Those who hear the Gospel receive a special message from the Holy Spirit, for no man can call Jesus Lord, but by the Holy Spirit. “No man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost” (I Corinthians 12:3). Therefore, it is appropriate for the message of salvation to be a rhema.

Bill gets lots of rhema’s. It is his specialty.


39 posted on 08/26/2014 8:43:23 PM PDT by DariusBane (Liberty and Risk. Flip sides of the same coin. So how much risk will YOU accept? Vive Deo et Vives)
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To: metmom
When we homeschooled, we had friends who did his homeschooling program and they fit right in with that cult mentality about how children were supposed to behave, etc. They had all the answers. Turns out one of their sons moved away from home as a young man and was living with his girlfriend and had rented a separate apartment that he claimed he was living in and his parents thought he was really living there the whole time he was living with his girlfriend. Clearly, God spared us from getting sucked into what he had to offer.

This has been bothering me all night.

I am going to leave you with something my grandmother told me when I got married.

She told me do not ever have children if you are not willing to get them to Sunday school every week.

It is not a guarantee that your children will grow up to do right or remain Christian but it gives them a greater chance if they do fall away into evil to find their way back to God because they will always know what He is expecting of them and that He loves them enough to accept them. It is much harder for the child that has never known God to understand or even find Him. So if you are not willing to take on the responsibility, do not raise children.

Tell me is the teaching at your church so great that you never have a child fall away into sin? If not why does it matter what one boys life mean to the teachings as a whole? Do you judge the teachings of your church this harshly or your family?

Sometimes I really do not understand the logic of others and maybe that is my biggest problem.

40 posted on 08/26/2014 8:58:58 PM PDT by Lady Heron
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To: DariusBane
Is he going around telling people to follow his Rhemas?

Never even heard any of them talking about something like that nor heard anything like it in the one basic course I went through 20 something years ago and growing up in a very legalistic church anything extra Biblical would have set off huge alarm bells and had me running for the hills.

Besides most of them would have run for the hills if they were required to follow some extra Biblical "Rhema" especially the veterinarian couple, the doctor and engineer.

A very good portion of the families were rather well educated and not easily led. A few might have fallen for something like that but watching an exodus of their friends would definitely set off alarm bells.

I am sorry, I still do not think you understand or really see the whole.

Show me some "Rhema" he got all of his cult members to follow that does not have some Biblical background.

41 posted on 08/26/2014 9:13:21 PM PDT by Lady Heron
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To: Lady Heron

http://www.recoveringgrace.org/2011/09/rhemas-hidden-wisdom-in-scripture/


42 posted on 08/26/2014 9:19:25 PM PDT by DariusBane (Liberty and Risk. Flip sides of the same coin. So how much risk will YOU accept? Vive Deo et Vives)
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Comment #43 Removed by Moderator

To: Lady Heron

Look you did not have time to read the article so why are you responding.


44 posted on 08/26/2014 9:29:50 PM PDT by DariusBane (Liberty and Risk. Flip sides of the same coin. So how much risk will YOU accept? Vive Deo et Vives)
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Comment #45 Removed by Moderator

To: DariusBane

Seriously, unless you can find an example where he is forcing his cult to do something not Biblical than this is ridiculous and useless and I am done.


46 posted on 08/26/2014 9:37:17 PM PDT by Lady Heron
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I agree with you that protestant v catholic and all the un essential stuff makes me ill.

My beef with BG and the Duggers is rooted in the innocent children damaged and forced into these systems of belief. BG and the Duggers should not be celebrated or emulated. The truth must be known. The Duggers consider the television show to be ministry. Outreach. I will oppose them to keep any more kids from being abused by the BG system.

So that is my “why”.


47 posted on 08/26/2014 9:41:17 PM PDT by DariusBane (Liberty and Risk. Flip sides of the same coin. So how much risk will YOU accept? Vive Deo et Vives)
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To: Lady Heron

you just don’t want to do the work.


48 posted on 08/26/2014 9:45:33 PM PDT by DariusBane (Liberty and Risk. Flip sides of the same coin. So how much risk will YOU accept? Vive Deo et Vives)
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To: Lady Heron

“Sometimes I really do not understand the logic of others and maybe that is my biggest problem.”

I went to the Gothard seminar many moons ago. Didn’t blow my mind like it seemed to do for others. It seemed to suit a certain type of personality, as I have come to believe about many churches.

I’m sick of listening to man. I want to hear from The Lord! I’ve been soaking up Scripture by listening to it while at work and on the bicycle. Listened to Romans today and it was just awesome hearing glorious truths of God in Christ. I love Paul dearly. It amazes me that God by His Spirit can speak to me TODAY by way of a child of His who’s been gone for so long. But He does. Why do we really care what some man has to say anyway, when our Father has spoken through His Son so richly, and through His appointed apostles and prophets?

Bless you.


49 posted on 08/26/2014 9:48:06 PM PDT by avenir (I'm pessimistic about man, but I'm optimistic about GOD!)
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To: avenir

Thank you. Finally someone who gets it.


50 posted on 08/26/2014 9:50:20 PM PDT by Lady Heron
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