Posted on 02/06/2015 11:58:47 AM PST by RnMomof7
You have two choices, I think:
1) Reject Pope St. Clement as a support for your position.
2) Reject "sola fide".
Naw...You're taking it out of context...Clement isn't going to contradict himself...
Let us clothe ourselves with concord and humility, ever exercising self-control, standing far off from all whispering and evil-speaking, being justified by our works, and not our words.
For [the Scripture] says, "He that speaks much, shall also hear much in answer. And does he that is ready in speech deem himself righteous? Blessed is he that is born of woman, who lives but a short time: be not given to much speaking."
Let our praise be in God, and not of ourselves; for God hates those that commend themselves. Let testimony to our good deeds be borne by others, as it was in the case of our righteous forefathers.
Clement is not talking about God's justification for us...Clement is referring to the person who calls himself a CHRISTIAN who then tries to justify that claim by bragging about the good Christian works he does...
Clement says that when God does good works thru you, don't point your finger at yourself to claim credit...Your works will be seen by others and they will recognize Christ in you...
Gal 6:13 For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh.
Gal 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
According to the Lord Jesus (and to St. John), the opposite of “believe” is not “disbelieve”; the opposite of “believe” (which is a far more “loaded” word than our English translations and ears usually hear) is to “disobey”.
I think you are a little confused...
Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Joh 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
1Jn 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
1Jn 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
Act_16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Rom 4:23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
Rom 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
Mere intellectual belief will not save. Belief coupled with OBEDIENCE saves. Scripture is replete with examples.
“Why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord’, and not do what I say?” (Luke 6:46) Doing what the Lord says is a work, yes?
“He who endures to the end will be saved.” (Matthew 10:22, repeated verbatim in 24:13) Endurance to the end (which will save) is a work, yes?
The bible is also replete with scripture that tells you salvation is without works, and by grace thru faith, without works...
The only way to justify your position is to reject the half of scriptures that don't agree with you...You have failed at this:
2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
When you find scripture that contradicts what you are reading you can't dump the scripture, you gotta keep reading...
And sorely misled.
Well said. Thanks for the series.
Yes it’s quite simple. Those who were called heard the Gospel, believed the Gospel and were immediately baptized.
If we put more into or take from what is observed we are in error.
Sorry for the delay; busy weekend...
Well... don’t you see that your own point cuts both ways? If you claim that (for example) the claims of Pope St. Clement which declare salvation by faith (which is absolutely true) don’t contradict his statements that salvation is not earned by works (which is also absolutely true), then isn’t it also just as possible that the Council of Trent (which condemned Luther’s proposition that one can be saved by faith “alone”, completely apart from all good works whatsoever) is in harmony with the Sacred Scriptures, with the rest of Church teaching (which condemns the idea of “earning salvation” unequivocally—look up “Pelagianism”, as I mentioned earlier), and with all right teaching of the rest of the Church Fathers?
You claim (and rightly so) that no works, in and of themselves, can possibly earn our salvation. Good enough, so far. But I’m still puzzled as to what your “beef” is with Catholic teaching; don’t you realize that the Church teaches the very same thing? No faithful and well-informed Catholic is under the mistaken impression that he/she can “earn” justification or sanctification or salvation by “works” in and of themselves; the idea is not only heretical (cf. Pelagianism and semi-Pelagianism), but it’s just silly... since every last scrap of our ability to DO good works (e.g. our strength, our bodies, our life, our good will to choose good works, and even our very existence) is completely dependent on free gifts from God.
Again: if you say that works are needed in order to demonstrate a “saving faith” (i.e. if no good works are done, then the person will not be saved, since you’d regard their faith as false), then how is that different from Catholic teaching, which says that faith and works must be found together in the soul that is to be justified? Logically, if faith and works both need to be present for justification to be true (as is plainly the teaching of St. James, Pope St. Clement, and all of Christendom since the beginning), then any supposed distinction from Catholic teaching becomes a distinction without a difference, yes?
I didn’t say that Pope St. Clement was contradicting himself. Rather, I suggested that a “sola fide” (in Luther’s sense) approach to Pope St. Clement would force a reader to conclude (wrongly) that Pope St. Clement is contradicting himself.
To clarify: my problem is not with “we are saved by faith” (of course, we are!); my problem is not even with “we are not saved by works (per se)” (of course we’re not!); my problem is when someone goes much farther, and says that works have absolutely no role to play in justification and salvation (which is nonsense—and St. James, Pope St. Clement, and all of Christian teaching condemns that Lutheran novelty unequivocally).
In other words: my problem (and Christianity’s problem) is not with “fide”—it’s with “SOLA”.
Illustration:
“sola fide” (bad)
“fide” (good)
“sola Scriptura” (bad)
“Scriptura” (good)
If you could just ditch the word “sola” in those two ideas, there’d be no logical problem with your position (and you’d be in harmony with the Catholic position, incidentally). The only “sola” which Luther got right was “sola gratia” (salvation by grace alone).
“Salvation = Faith; period”
...and not love? Love is optional?
Is LOVE listed here?
Hebrews 11:6
And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek Him.
No, “love” isn’t explicitly in the text of Hebrews 11:6.
So you apparently believe that it’s possible to be saved without loving God? I just want to be clear about your particular view.
From where I’m sitting, though, Hebrews 11:6 isn’t spelling out the minimum requirements for salvation; the best it does is to list ONE of the requirements for salvation (i.e. Faith).
It's not necessary to do anything but to believe on him...Jesus doesn't wait on us to love him...He loves us regardless...And we can't obey him until we get to know what he wants...
When we acknowledge who he is, and then call out to him to save us, that's all it takes...Everything else comes after that...
Here's my point: we both believe (correct me if I'm wrong) that faith and good works (on which we are to be judged, and which play a role in our justification--see James 2:24) both need to be present in the one who is to be saved...
Nope...Complete disagreement...Christians will not be judged...It is our works that will be judged...That's a massive difference...Our good works will remain and our bad works will be burned up, never to be remembered again...Thus the phrase, we will be saved 'as' by fire...With our bad works burned up, there is nothing to hold against us...
I am well aware what James says but there are far too many scriptures in the Epistles that say just the opposite...
You can't just pick what you want, the Epistles or James...All the scripture has to be reconciled...If you can't explain those verses in James while at the same time explain all those scriptures in the Epistles, there's something wrong with that theology...
I didn't say works are "needed" for salvation, only that our works demonstrate the genuineness of our faith TO OTHERS (God sees our hearts, man only sees the outward appearance). There IS a distinction and a difference that cannot be ignored. Just what exactly do you think the Reformation was about? See if you can spot the difference in these quotes concerning our "justification":
Paul is here (1 Corinthians 12–13)...demanding love in addition to faith. This is what he does elsewhere in all his letters, demanding good works from believers, i.e. the justified...And when he says that he who has all faith but no love is nothing, he is right. For although faith alone justifies, love is also demanded...But love does not justify because no one loves as he ought. Faith, however, justifies...There is also the passage in James 2:17: ‘So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.’ He did well to say this, for he was reprimanding those who thought that faith is merely a historical opinion about Christ. For just as Paul calls one type of faith ‘true,’ and the other ‘feigned,’ so James calls the one kind ‘living’ and the other ‘dead.’ A living faith is that efficacious, burning trust in the mercy of God which never fails to bring forth good fruits. That is what James says in ch. 2:22: ‘Faith was completed by works.’...Therefore, the whole point that James is making is that dead faith...does not justify, but a living faith justifies. But a living faith is that which pours itself out in works. For he speaks as follows (v. 18): ‘Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith.’ But he does not say: ‘I will show you works without faith.’ My exposition squares most harmoniously with what we read in James: ‘So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.’ Therefore, it is obvious that he is teaching here merely that faith is dead in those who do not bring forth the fruit of faith, even though from external appearances they seem to believe (Philip Melanchthon, Love and Hope. Found in The Library of Christian Classics (Philadelphia: Westminster, 1969), Volume XIX, p. 112).
Through faith in Christ, therefore, Christ’s righteousness becomes our righteousness and all that he has becomes ours; rather, he himself becomes ours. Therefore the Apostle calls it ‘the righteousness of God.’ in Rom. 1:17: For in the gospel ‘the righteousness of God is revealed...as it is written, “The righteousness man shall live by faith.” ’...This is an infinite righteousness, and one that swallows up all sin in a moment, for it is impossible that sin should exist in Christ. On the contrary, he who trusts in Christ exists in Christ; he is one with Christ, having the same righteousness as he...Therefore this alien righteousness, instilled in us without our works by grace alone—while the Father, to be sure, inwardly draws us to Christ—is set opposite original sin, likewise alien, which we acquire without our works by birth alone. The second kind of righteousness is our proper righteousness, not because we alone work it, but because we work with that first and alien righteousness. This is the manner of life spent profitably in good works, in the first place, in slaying the flesh and crucifying the desires with respect to the self, of which we read in Gal. 5:24: ‘And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.’ In the second place, this righteousness consists in love to one’s neighbor, and in the third place, in meekness and fear toward God...This righteousness is the product of the righteousness of the first type, actually its fruit and onsequence...This righteousness goes on to complete the first for it ever strives to do away with the old Adam and to destroy the body of sin. Therefore it hates itself and loves its neighbor; it does not seek its own good, but that of another, and this its whole way of living consists. For in that it hates itself and does not seek its own, it crucifies the flesh. Because it seeks the good of another, it works love. Thus in each sphere it does God’s will, living soberly with self, justly with neighbor, devoutly toward God (Martin Luther, Two Kinds of Righteousness. Taken from Martin Luther’s Basic Theological Writings (Minneapolis: Fortress, 1989), pp. 156–158).
VERSUS:
As regards those who, by sin, have fallen from the received grace of Justification, they may again be justified...through the sacrament of Penance...For, on behalf of those who fall into sins after baptism, Christ Jesus instituted the sacrament of Penance...and therein are included not only a cessation from sins, and a detestation thereof, or, a contrite and humble heart, but also the sacramental confession of said sins...and sacerdotal absolution; and likewise satisfaction by fasts, alms, prayers, and the other pious exercises of the spiritual life...for the temporal punishment, which...is not always wholly remitted. If any one saith that he who has fallen after baptism...is able to recover the justice which he has lost...by faith alone without the sacrament of Penance...let him be anathema (The Canons and Decrees of the Council of Trent. Found in Philip Schaff, The Creeds of Christendom (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1910), Decree on Justification, Chapter XIV. Canon XXIX.
In this divine sacrifice...that same Christ is contained and immolated in an unbloody manner who once offered himself in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross...This sacrifice is truly propitiatory...If any one saith, that the sacrifice of the mass is only a sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving; or that it is a bare commemoration of the sacrifice consummated on the cross, but not a propitiatory sacrifice...and that it ought not to be offered for the living and dead for sins, pains, satisfactions and other necessities: let him be anathema (The Canons and Decrees of the Council of Trent. Found in Philip Schaff, The Creeds of Christendom (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1910), Doctrine on the Sacrifice of the Mass, Chp. II, p. 180, Canon III).
Pope Paul VI: The doctrine of purgatory clearly demonstrates that even when the guilt of sin has been taken away, punishment for it or the consequences of it may remain to be expiated and cleansed. They often are. In fact, in purgatory the souls of those 'who died in the charity of God and truly repentant, but who had not made satisfaction with adequate penance for their sins and omissions' are cleansed after death with punishments designed to purge away their debt...Following in Christ’s steps, those who believe in him have always tried to help one another along the path which leads to the heavenly Father, through prayer, the exchange of spiritual goods and penitential expiation. The more they have been immersed in the fervor of love, the more they have imitated Christ in his sufferings. They have carried their crosses to make expiation for their own sins and the sins of others. They were convinced that they could help their brothers to obtain salvation from God who is the Father of mercies. This is the very ancient dogma called the Communion of Saints...The “treasury of the Church” is the infinite value, which can never be exhausted, which Christ’s merits have before God. They were offered so that the whole of mankind could be set free from sin and attain communion with the Father. In Christ, the Redeemer himself, the satisfactions and merits of his Redemption exist and find their efficacy. This treasury includes as well the prayers and good works of the Blessed Virgin Mary. They are truly immense, unfathomable and even pristine in their value before God. In the treasury, too, are the prayers and good works of all the saints, all those who have followed in the footsteps of Christ the Lord and by his grace have made their lives holy and carried out the mission the Father entrusted to them. In this way they attained their own salvation and at the same time cooperated in saving their brothers in the unity of the Mystical Body...God’s only-begotten Son... has won a treasure for the militant Church... he has entrusted it to blessed Peter, the key-bearer of heaven, and to his successors who are Christ’s vicars on earth, so that they may distribute it to the faithful for their salvation. They may apply it with mercy for reasonable causes to all who have repented for and have confessed their sins. At times they may remit completely, and at other times only partially, the temporal punishment due to sin in a general as well as in special ways (insofar as they judge it to be fitting in the sight of the Lord). The merits of the Blessed Mother of God and of all the elect ... are known to add further to this treasure (Paul VI, Indulgentiarum Doctrina, January 1, 1967).
That’s just my point (re: reconciling St. James with the rest of the NT): there is no contradiction, because the Bible does not teach “faith ALONE”; Martin Luther did that, and he was mistaken. (It’s a reason why he wanted to throw the Epistle of James out of the canon, BTW.)
And while it’s true that Jesus loves us well before we love Him, it’s absurd to say that anyone could be saved without loving Him! It sounds very picturesque to say, “Just do this, and all else will follow!”, but look at your sentence:
“When we acknowledge who he is, and then call out to him to save us, that’s all it takes.”
So you’ll have to decide: is it faith alone, or do we also have to acknowledge Him and call out to Him to save us? “Faith alone, period” means “faith alone, period”—it doesn’t mean “followed by lots of other necessary stuff”... or else you’ll have to include that “lots of other necessary stuff” as requirements for salvation!
You’re right in many ways: faith is of primal necessity (as the Catholic Church has always taught), and we can’t be saved without it. But you can’t simply ignore other Bible passages which include other things in order to be saved:
“He who endures to the end will be saved.” (Jesus says this twice in the same Gospel, in Matthew 10:22 and 24:13, and also in Mark 13:13) Apparently “enduring to the end” (which is a work, yes?) is necessary for salvation, in addition to believing that Jesus is Lord.
“If you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” (Romans 10:9) Apparently confession with our lips (which is a work) and belief that God raised Him from the dead is also necessary, in addition to belief that Jesus is Lord.
“...every one who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved.” (Romans 10:13) So we must not forget to call upon the Name of the Lord (which is a work), in addition to believing that Jesus is Lord, in order to be saved.
...and so on. My problem isn’t with Scripture: my problem is with a reductionist, minimalist view of Scripture which makes nonsense of much of the rest of Scripture (and Christian history). For example:
1) Faith is necessary for salvation. (true)
2) Faith ALONE is necessary for salvation. (false)
The mental gymnastics needed to explain away all the Scriptures which collide with #2 is remarkable... and it’s no surprise, if you consider that Scripture NEVER teaches that faith (in the sense of mere assent of intellect) ALONE is sufficient for salvation. Faith must be a LIVING faith in order to be a saving faith; it must be faith working through love (Galatians 5:6, 1 Corinthians 13:2, etc.), which is united to good works (James 2:24, etc.), and so on, or else that “faith” will not save. The Bible is crystal-clear, on that point.
And I’ll add that the Bible NOWHERE teaches that “once you have intellectual faith, all the other necessary things will follow”; in fact, if we have all faith so as to move mountains, but if we have not love, we are nothing (1 Cor 13:2)... so St. Paul obviously thinks it possible to have faith without love, or else he’s warning us against an imaginary danger.
I never said that there wasn’t a contradiction between the Catholic Church and Luther (there obviously was... as I referenced in my original comment to you, and in other comments since then). I suggested that, as presented, the view of many modern non-Catholic, non-Eastern-Orthodox Christians may be farther from Luther (and nearer to the Catholic Church) than they might think.
Re: works only “demonstrating our faith to others”... I don’t see how the Scriptures support that view any more than they support the plain-text view of James 2:24 (we are justified by works, and not by faith alone—why not take the plain meaning of that, rather than try to move heaven and earth to “interpret” it into irrelevance?), Matthew 25:31-46 (the goats were consigned to eternal hell because they didn’t perform good works such as feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, and other corporal works of mercy; they even called Him “Lord”, but it did no good), and the like.
Question: if good works are only used for demonstration purposes, then isn’t it awkward for St. James to say, explicitly, that they JUSTIFY us, and don’t just “come in handy as an example/proof for others”? Isn’t “justify” a technical term which is inextricably linked to salvation?
Frankly, I find the Scriptural support of the Catholic view to be overwhelming... and requiring no one to ignore even a single verse of Scripture; while the Luther-inspired “sola fide, sola Scriptura” collides with more Scriptures than I can easily count.
It seems to me that you think there are OTHER requirements to be saved
Is there a LIST of them?
I would think that any of the writers of the NT would have sent the ENTIRE list to whomever they were writing to; just to make sure they'd be CLEAR on the requirements.
After all; there was NO way that Paul, or Peter or James could POSSIBLY know if the ones THEY wrote to would EVER read any of the other's messages.
Tain't the way it's written:
Exodus 32:32-33
But now, if you will forgive their sin—but if not, please blot me out of your book that you have written.” But the Lord said to Moses, “Whoever has sinned against me, I will blot out of my book.
Daniel 12:1
“At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book.Philippians 4:3
And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life.
Revelation 3:5
He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
Revelation 13:8
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.Revelation 17:8
The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.Revelation 20:11-15
"Then I saw a great White Throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and THE BOOKS WERE OPENED. Another book was opened WHICH IS THE BOOK OF LIFE. The dead were judged according to their works as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to their works. Then death and Hades were thrown into the Lake of Fire. The Lake of Fire is the second death. If anyone's name was not found written IN THE BOOK OF LIFE, he was thrown into the lake of fire."Revelation 21:27Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.
Revelation 20
And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and THE BOOKS WERE OPENED. Another book was opened WHICH IS THE BOOK OF LIFE.
I was 'inspired' to make a listing of WRITTEN.
Maybe you can make one for TRADITION.
Sorry to type and run; I’ll try to write more tomorrow! Must dash off to the lovely wife...!
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