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The Sacrifice of the Mass, Hebrews, and the Problem of the One-and-the-Many
Fallibility ^ | September 23, 2013 | Michael Taylor

Posted on 03/28/2015 12:21:36 PM PDT by RnMomof7

The Sacrifice of the Mass, Hebrews, and the Problem of the One-and-the-Many

Introduction

In Roman Catholic theology, every particular mass is itself a sacrifice, not merely the memorial of a sacrifice. At the same time, however, the mass is essentially the same sacrifice as Calvary, even though the mass is not in every respect Calvary itself. The Council of Trent says:
And inasmuch as in this divine sacrifice which is celebrated in the mass is contained and immolated in an unbloody manner the same Christ who once offered Himself in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross, the holy council teaches that this is truly propitiatory… For the victim is one and the same, the same now offering by the ministry of priests who then offered Himself on the cross, the manner alone of offering being different (Council of Trent, Twenty-Second Session, chapter II, cited in The Canons and Decrees of the Council of Trent, H. J. Schroeder, translator, [Rockford, IL: Tan, 1978], 145-146).
There is one sacrifice, which is re-presented and perpetuated in many sacrifices. Is this a difficult concept to understand? Sometimes Roman Catholic apologists accuse Protestantism of being a religion devoid of mystery and Protestants in general as being incapable of grasping the concepts of eternity and the supernatural. Karl Keating put it this way:
In the final analysis, what makes the Mass literally unbelievable for fundamentalists is that they cannot conceive of a single act that is perpetuated through time. For them, what happened on Calvary happened there alone and remains in the dead past. They see Catholic priests conducting a sacrifice today and conclude that today’s sacrifice must be distinct from Calvary’s. If it really is a sacrifice, it is an attempt to replay Calvary in the most literal way—which, they know, is quite impossible. Christ cannot be killed again. So, for fundamentalists, what priests do at the altar really reduces to a show. Priests may think they are re-presenting the same sacrifice, but fundamentalists know they are only play-acting. It is fundamentalists’ sense of the mysterious, their sense of the supernatural, that is undeveloped…Having been instructed poorly in the supernatural as such, fundamentalists have not given it much thought, and they have trouble imagining that God is actually beyond time. They usually think of eternity as being nothing but endless years, a time line that disappears into the mists at each end, and they do not think of Calvary being a perpetual Now…It requires a determined refocusing of the mind to see things from the Catholic perspective, and this is not easy for fundamentalists [sic] to accomplish (Karl Keating, Catholicism and Fundamentalism, [San Francisco: Ignatius, 1988], 257-258).
When Keating speaks of a “single act that is perpetuated through time,” he is essentially stating a version of the metaphysical problem of the one-and-the-many. How can something that is essentially one also be essentially many? Attempts to solve his problem are as old as philosophy itself. Plato credits Heraclitus with raising the issue of whether or not it is possible to step in the same river twice. If we may oversimplify, the history of philosophy can pretty much be read as a coversation between those who say you can and those who say you can’t and those who say that both sides are right. Those who say you can are the philosophical “lumpers,” those who see forests before they see trees, those who stress unity over diversity. Put a foot in the Nile today, do it again tomorrow, and you’ve stepped into the same river twice, right? Wrong, say the “splitters”—those who tend to see the trees rather than the forests. These will be the first to tell you that the water you put your foot in today is not the same water you’ll put your foot into tomorrow—it’s just too far downstream to be “the same river.” Then there are the “synthesizers”—those who want to have it both ways. Sure, it’s different water, but it’s the same river. The outward appearance (accidents) may have changed, but the essence (substance) of the river has not.

We can modify Hericlitus’ quandary: Can you step into the same sacrifice twice? The theological “lumper” says you can and would appeal to mystical categories to explain how the mass and Calvary are numerically identical. Catholic theologian, Ludwig Ott refers to this as the “Mystery Theory,” but notes that this theory was rejected by Pope Pius XII in his encylical, Mediator Dei (Ludwig Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, [Rockford, IL: Tan, 1960], 411). The theological “splitter,” in contrast, would say that Calvary is ontologically distinct from the sacrifice of the mass. Generally speaking, Protestants would come close to this position if they were to regard the mass as a propitiatory sacrifice. The Roman Catholic position, then, is clearly synthetic. The mass is both the same sacrifice as Calvary (essentially) and a different sacrifice from Calvary (in its manner of offering).

What of Keating’s accusations? Are Protestants incapable of grasping metaphysical concepts such as the one-and-the-many problem and the philosophical definition of eternity as being outside of time? Are Protestants incapable of grappling with mystery and the supernatural? Of course, Keating doesn’t really have all Protestants in mind, but rather the anti-intellectual “fundamentalist.” But is it not the case that even the most backwoods, snake-handling, Bible-thumper can and usually does accept the doctrine of the Trinity? In fact, most fundamentalists do accept the major creeds of the church catholic and would therefore agree that Christ is “eternally begotten of the Father” (the eternity problem) and that the one God exists eternally in three consubstantial persons (the one-and-the-many problem). Still, there will always be those in the church who will eschew philosophical and metaphysical categories for expressing biblical doctrine. Let’s assume that Keating’s fundamentalist is precisely that kind of Christian—one who believes that all true doctrine is "expressly set down in Scripture”—but one who also denies that true doctrine may be deduced from Scripture "by good and necessary consequence” (Westminster Confession of Faith, I:6). Could such a Christian ever hope to understand the Roman Catholic doctrine of the mass?

We think so. For the problem of the one-and-the-many is not just a metaphysical problem; it is also a thoroughly biblical one. Paul, for example, displays “lumper” tendencies when he speaks of the “summing up of all things in Christ” (Ephesians 1:10). His preference here is to see the essential "oneness" of reality in relation to Christ. On the other hand, Paul can be a “splitter”: “Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, ‘and to seeds,’ as referring to many, but rather to one, ‘and to your seed,’ that is, Christ” (Galatians 3:16). Paul’s Christological argument depends upon the distinction between the singular “seed” and the plural “seeds.” If reality is not "many" in this case, then Paul’s distinction is hardly warranted. On yet another hand, Paul exhibits “synthesizer” tendencies when he draws his analogy to the body: “We being many are one body in Christ” (Romans 12:5, see also 1 Corinthians 10:17; 12:20, 27; Ephesians 4:25) Christ is both one and many—one in his person, many in his church.

We can see, then, that depending on the issue, the Bible can resolve the one-and-the-many problem in any number of directions. Therefore even Keating’s Bible-only fundamentalist should have no problem, in principle, with the concept of one sacrifice perpetuated through time. Now let us assume for the sake of argument that the Last Supper (and therefore every mass) really was a sacrifice in the precise sense Rome requires. How might a fundamentalist or any other reader of scripture evaluate Rome's position (assuming the mass is a sacrifice)?

The One-and-the-Many Problem in Hebrews

The obvious starting point (which is as far as this article will go) is the letter to the Hebrews since it’s author takes up a remarkably parallel problem with respect to the relationship of the one sacrifice on Calvary to the many sacrifices that yearly took place in the Temple on Yom Kippur or the Day of Atonement. Using our admittedly oversimplified “lumper, splitter, synthesizer” schema, we can attempt to locate this author’s theological preference for relating the one sacrifice (Calvary) to the many sacrifices (Yom Kippur). The relevant texts are the following:

Hebrews 7:23-28
“Now there have been many of those priests, since death prevented them from continuing in office; 24 but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. 25 Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them. 26 Such a high priest meets our need-- one who is holy, blameless, pure, set apart from sinners, exalted above the heavens. 27 Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself. 28 For the law appoints as high priests men who are weak; but the oath, which came after the law, appointed the Son, who has been made perfect forever.”
The author to the Hebrews develops his argument with a series of antitheses that contrast the perfect high priesthood of Jesus to the imperfect Levitical priesthood. The antitheses between the one and the many, the perfect and the imperfect suggest that the author should be classified as a theological “splitter.”

The One:  The unique priesthood of Jesus is permanent because he lives forever (7:24).
The Many: The temporal Levitical priesthood is subject to mortality (Hebrews 7:23).

The One:  Jesus is able to completely save sinners because he can intercede perpetually (7:25).
The Many: Levitical priests cannot save anyone and can only intercede as long as they live (implied).

The One:  Jesus our high priest is without sin (7:26).
The Many: Levitical high priests are sinners (implied).

The One:  Jesus does not need to offer sacrifices day after day (7:27).
The Many: Levitical priests need to offer daily sacrifices on behalf of themselves and others (7:27).

The One:  Jesus is appointed high priest by divine oath which supercedes the law (7:28).
The Many: Levitical high priests are appointed by the now obsolete law (7:28).

The One:  Jesus is a perfect high priest forever (7:28).
The Many: Levitical high priests are weak and will die (7:28).

From these antitheses, we can draw the following conclusions. The priesthood of Jesus is perfect because it is permanent (7:24), efficacious (7:25), constituted of one sinless priest (7:25), based on one, unrepeatable sacrifice (7:27), and not derived from the obsolete Law, but rather divine promise (7:28).  In contrast, the Levitical priesthood is imperfect because it is temporal (7:23), ineffective (7:25), constituted of sinful priests (7:26), based on multiple sacrifices (7:27), and because it is derived from the obsolete Law (7:28).

The argument in 7:23-25 is designed to show how it is possible for Jesus to completely save sinners. Jesus can save sinners completely because “he always lives to intercede for them,” which follows from the fact that Jesus lives forever. We can thus infer that any priest that does not live forever cannot intercede perpetually for sinners and is therefore unable to completely save sinners. But if this argument demonstrates the impotency of the Levitical priesthood, it would also seem to imply the impotency of any other cultic priesthood (such as that of Roman Catholicism or Eastern Orthodoxy) whose priests are likewise mortal. Strictly speaking, the author is not so much concerned with the mortality of Levitical priests as he is with the fact that there were so many of them. Mortality simply explains why there were so many. New Testament scholar, William L. Lane (an Evangelical) explains the argument this way:


The fact that there were many priests under the Levitical arrangement is important to the writer’s argument. In Hebrews multiplicity signifies incompleteness, imperfection, and inconclusiveness (e.g., 1:1; 10:1-4)…In contrast to the Levitical priests, whose ministries were continually disrupted by death, there is no temporal limitation to the ministry of a priest who lives forever. The eternity of the Son qualifies him to exercise a ministry that is permanent and final. The unequivocal statement that nothing can infringe upon Christ’s priesthood includes the subsidiary notion that it passes to no successor” (William L. Lane, Hebrews 1-8, Word Biblical Commentary, vol. 47a, [Dallas: Word, 1991], 188-189).
The argument in 7:26-28 establishes why Jesus does not need to offer multiple sacrifices. The author begins with the fact that sacrifice must be offered for both the priest who is weak and for the people who are sinners. The implication here is that so long as either party is sinful, there will always be a need for continuing sacrifice. The solution to the problem is Jesus’ impeccability and self-sacrifice. Jesus is both sinless priest and sinless victim. Since Jesus is a sinless priest, he obviously does not need to offer sacrifice for himself. Yet because the people are still sinners, it would seem that there must be continued sacrifices on their behalf. For Roman Catholics the sacrifices of the mass (divine liturgies for the Eastern Orthodox) are precisely these ongoing sacrifices. But for the author to the Hebrews, it is because the priest and victim is “holy, blameless, pure, set apart from sinners,” that only one sacrifice is necessary. In other words, a sinless victim offered by a sinless priest is a perfect sacrifice that obviates the need for any continued sacrificial offering. This is why the author can say, “he sacrificed for their sins once and for all when he offered himself” (7:27).

For the author to the Hebrews, the need for continued sacrificial offering has more to do with the nature of the sacrifice than the sinfulness of the sinner. Only imperfect sacrifices are offered more than once, whereas a perfect sacrifice can only be offered once. “Where there is remission of sin, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin” (Hebrews 10:18). Contrast this to the Roman Catholic view that holds that because we continue to sin, we are in continuous need of multiple sacrifices. For the author to the Hebrews, those who despise the one, perfect sacrifice by continuing to sin willfully “are crucifying the Son of God all over again” (Hebrews 6:6). For such as these, “there is no longer any sacrifice for sins” (Hebrews 10:26). 

Now consider for a moment the conditions for the possibility of such an assertion. To say that “there is no longer any sacrifice for sins” simply precludes the possibility that there is any such thing as ongoing propitiatory sacrifices (such as the mass) in the church. The author to the Hebrews simply does not deal with the problem of ongoing sin by multiplying sacrifices to remit them; rather he insists on steadfast repentance so that the one, perfect sacrifice can be effectively appropriated in the life of the believer. In other words, instead of continued sacrifices for sin (e.g., the mass), the author to the Hebrews holds for the continued efficacy of the one sacrifice for the penitent believer.

Hebrews 9:11-12


“When Christ came as high priest of the good things that are already here, he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not man-made, that is to say, not a part of this creation. 12 He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption.”

Hebrews 9:24-28
“For Christ did not enter a man-made sanctuary that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God's presence. 25 Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. 26 Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.”
The author continues to develop his argument by means of antitheses. The Levitical priesthood is an imperfect type that has been fulfilled and replaced by the perfect antitype in Jesus’ unique high priesthood. Again, the author continues to approach this version of the one and the many problem as a “splitter.”

The One:  As high priest, Jesus entered the perfect heavenly tabernacle once and for all (9:11; 24-28).
The Many: Levitical high priests yearly enter a tabernacle that is an imperfect copy of the original (9:12; 24-25).

The One:  Jesus’ sacrifice achieved eternal redemption (9:12).
The Many: Levitical sacrifices achieve temporary redemption (implied).

The One:  Jesus entered the perfect tabernacle by means of his own blood once and for all (9:12, 24-28).
The Many: Levitical priests enter the imperfect tabernacle by means of animal blood on a yearly basis (implied).

The One:  Jesus offered one, perfect and unrepeatable sacrifice valid for all time and eternity (9:26; 10:14).
The Many: Repeat sacrifices necessitate multiple deaths (9:26), which is a sign of their imperfection.

The priesthood of Jesus is superior because Jesus cleansed the perfect tabernacle in heaven (9:11), by means of his own blood (9:12), once and for all (9:12; 28), thereby having achieved an eternal redemption (9:12; 26). In contrast, the Levitical priesthood is imperfect because its high priests enter an imperfect tabernacle (9:12; 24), year after year (9:26) cleansing it with animals’ blood (9:12), thereby achieving a redemption that is valid for only a year.

The argument continues to assert the superiority of the one sacrifice over and against the many sacrifices. If Jesus had offered himself “again and again,” then he would have had to suffer “many times.” For the author to the Hebrews, there is only one offering per sacrifice and every sacrifice entails suffering. As he says elsewhere, “Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness” (9:22). The author to the Hebrews simply would not accept the idea of a repeatable “unbloody” sacrifice in which the victim does not suffer. Such a sacrifice would not be a sacrifice at all. For the Roman Catholic, an unbloody sacrifice is surely a mystery.  But for the author to the Hebrews, it is an oxymoron.

Hebrews 10:1-18
“The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming-- not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. 2 If it could, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins. 3 But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins, 4 because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. 5 Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said: "Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me; 6 with burnt offerings and sin offerings you were not pleased. 7 Then I said, 'Here I am-- it is written about me in the scroll-- I have come to do your will, O God.'" 8 First he said, "Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them" (although the law required them to be made). 9 Then he said, "Here I am, I have come to do your will." He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. 13 Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, 14 because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy. 15 The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says: 16 "This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds." 17 Then he adds: "Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more." 18 And where these have been forgiven, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin.”
The author continues to argue for the superiority of Jesus’ high priesthood by means of several more antitheses which contrast the superiority of Jesus’ sacrificial offering to that of the Levitical priests. Once again, the author continues to exhibit “splitter” tendencies.

The One:  If Jesus’ sacrifice were to be offered repeatedly, this would imply its imperfection (10:1-2).
The Many: The repetition of the same sacrifice implies its imperfection (10:1-2).

The One:  Jesus’ unique sacrifice removes consciousness of past sins because of the efficacy of Christ’s blood (10:2).
The Many:  Levitical sacrifices continually remind the sinner of his sin because of the impotency of animal blood (10:3).

The One:  God is pleased with Jesus’ obedience to His will that took him to the cross (10:4-9).
The Many: God is not pleased with the animal sacrifices of the Levitical priesthood (10:4-9).

The One:  Jesus offered his sacrifice once and for all and then sat down, signifying the completion and perfection of his sacrifice (10:10-14).
The Many: Levitical priests stand day after day to offer the same sacrifices that cannot take away sin. Their work is never complete (10:10-14).

The One:  Once sin has been forgiven, there is no need for any further offering for sin (10:15-18)
The Many: To continue to offer the same sacrifices implies a continued need for sin offerings.

The sacrifice of Jesus is perfect because it is offered once and for all (10:1-2), efficacious (10:2), pleasing to God (10:4-9), eternally complete (10:10-14) and eternally valid (10:15-18). In contrast, the sacrifices of the Levitical priests are imperfect because they are repetitious (10:1-2), impotent (10:3), unpleasing to God (10:4-9), never complete (10:10-14) and therefore always needed (10:15-18).

The argument in 10:1-4 raises the question of what exactly makes a sacrifice imperfect.  Is a sacrifice offered more than once because it is imperfect? Or is the sacrifice imperfect because it is offered more than once? For the author to the Hebrews, the answer seems to be both. On the one hand, the proof that a sacrifice is imperfect is the fact that it needs to be offered more than once:
“For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. 2 If it could, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins (Hebrews 10:1-2). 
On the other hand, the only reason sacrifices must be continually offered is because the sacrifices themselves are intrinsically imperfect: 
“But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins, 4 because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins” (Hebrews 10:3-4).
What, then, might the author to the Hebrews conclude about the sacrifice of the mass? At first, he might conclude that it is an imperfect sacrifice simply because it is offered repeatedly. But would he think differently if the offering itself were intrinsically perfect? In other words, if he knew the mass to be an “unbloody” re-presentation of the original blood that was shed on Calvary (rather than the shedding of animal’s blood, which cannot take away sin), would he change is mind about the imperfection of repeated sacrifices in this case? Would he embrace the doctrine of a single, absolute sacrifice (Calvary) perpetuated through time by means of multiple relative sacrifices (the mass)?

Probably not. While such a view may be tenable for a “synthesizer,” the author to the Hebrews (a confirmed “splitter”) would probably never accept such a position. If the perfect High Priest does not need to offer himself over and over again, then surely the imperfect priests of the church do not need to either. If the movement of salvation history is from the lesser to the greater, the imperfect type to the perfect antitype, the copy to the original, then the development of a new cultic priesthood that offers “re-presentations” of the original sacrifice would surely be a step in the wrong direction, at least as far the author to the Hebrews is concerned. 

If Jesus has finished his sacrificial work (as the session at the right hand of the Father indicates), then could he envision a new cultic priesthood that must continually “re-present” to the Father the very work that Jesus has already presented to the Father once and for all? If, for the author there is “no further offering for sin,” could he ever imagine continued propitiatory sacrifices (the mass) in the life of the church? To ask such questions is to answer them.



TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Evangelical Christian; History; Theology; Worship
KEYWORDS: eucharist; evangelical; mass; sacrifice; tradition
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1 posted on 03/28/2015 12:21:36 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: Alex Murphy; bkaycee; blue-duncan; boatbums; CynicalBear; daniel1212; Gamecock; HossB86; Iscool; ...

Ping


2 posted on 03/28/2015 12:23:46 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: RnMomof7

“In the final analysis, what makes the Mass literally unbelievable for fundamentalists is that they cannot conceive of a single act that is perpetuated through time. For them, what happened on Calvary happened there alone and remains in the dead past....”

That whole paragraph is wrong. That isn’t it at all. The Lord’s table is only for us to remember what he did. There is no extra grace bestowed at all. There is no trans-anything that happens.


3 posted on 03/28/2015 12:26:21 PM PDT by sigzero
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To: sigzero
And in modern day remembrance of the Last Supper .....

 photo daily_picdump_888_640_06_zps85e97179.jpg

4 posted on 03/28/2015 1:01:54 PM PDT by SkyDancer (I Was Told Nobody Is Perfect But Yet, Here I Am ...)
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To: RnMomof7

Jews say of the passover ”why is THIS night different from all others...this is what the LORD has done for ME”, not for my ancestors on some night long ago in history. The Lamb Who IS Slain From Before the Foundation of the World offers Himself in sacrifice both within and outside of time, is able and does so will to permit us to share in that and this one true perpetual sacrifice. Who can tell Him ”you can’t do that”?


5 posted on 03/28/2015 1:11:36 PM PDT by CharlesOConnell (CharlesOConnell)
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To: sigzero

HOw do you know?


6 posted on 03/28/2015 1:38:11 PM PDT by yldstrk (My heroes have always been cowboys)
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To: RnMomof7
At the Mass we are present at the sacrifice of the Lamb. Not a repeat. Not an echo.

Christ's sacrifice is once and for all. At the Mass - faithful to his command - we become engaged with, we become part of His sacrifice, part of His Passion.

Think! The Passion of God is the greatest event in time and in eternity! God is not bound to time and space, and His great act of salvation is not tied up in a corner, hostage to a moment in time. Rather, it fills time like water fills a river. We just need to reach out and touch it.

Christ commands us to eat His Body and drink His Blood. His life, His death and His resurrection - the most important events that ever were or ever could be - are waiting for us at Mass.

Hope this is helpful.

7 posted on 03/28/2015 1:49:39 PM PDT by agere_contra (Hamas has dug miles of tunnels - but no bomb-shelters.)
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To: CharlesOConnell
>>The Lamb Who IS Slain From Before the Foundation of the World offers Himself in sacrifice both within and outside of time<<

If you believe the "outside of time" meme then you can not believe in free will either. Scripture says those who are written in the book of life were there before the creation of the world.

8 posted on 03/28/2015 2:02:44 PM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
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To: CynicalBear
So the Jews said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?"

Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."

God is indeed outside of time and space.

Now, He knows how we will choose - whether we will follow Him or fall away from Him. But unless we make our choices then there is nothing - no act of faith or act of defiance or neglect - for God to see.

We are not predestined to be damned or saved - we have a choice. God does indeed see our choices - but only because we get to make them.

9 posted on 03/28/2015 2:18:51 PM PDT by agere_contra (Hamas has dug miles of tunnels - but no bomb-shelters.)
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To: yldstrk
HE said;

Luke 22:19King James Version (KJV)

19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.

10 posted on 03/28/2015 2:32:32 PM PDT by knarf (I say things that are true ... I have no proof ... but they're true)
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To: RnMomof7

A tremendous amount of space trying to discredit 2,000 years of Christian teaching and trying to justify a VERY bad decision.....


11 posted on 03/28/2015 2:44:10 PM PDT by terycarl (common sense prevails over all)
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To: agere_contra

(bed time, goodnight to all)


12 posted on 03/28/2015 3:07:42 PM PDT by agere_contra (Hamas has dug miles of tunnels - but no bomb-shelters.)
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To: sigzero; metmom; boatbums; caww; presently no screen name; redleghunter; Springfield Reformer; ...
That whole paragraph is wrong.

But that was from RC apologist Karl Keating, employing one of his handy strawmen he uses in his deception of the simple.

God gives grace to obey Him, and blesses obedience, but the Lord's supper is not that of Catholicism.

13 posted on 03/28/2015 5:00:04 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: yldstrk
HOw do you know?

How do you know? Is it on the basis of the weight of Scriptural substantiation or the premise of the ensured magisterial veracity of Rome?

It seems that the RC argument is that an assuredly (if conditionally) infallible magisterium is essential for determination and assurance of Truth (including writings and men being of God) and to fulfill promises of Divine presence, providence of Truth, and preservation of faith, and authority. (Jn. 14:16,26; 15:26; 16:13; Mt. 16:18; Lk. 10:16)

And that being the historical instruments and stewards of Divine revelation (oral and written) means that such is that assuredly infallible magisterium. Thus any who knowingly dissent from the latter must be in rebellion to God. Does this fairly represent what you hold to or in what way does it differ?

14 posted on 03/28/2015 5:02:44 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: RnMomof7
To save typing, for all those who are going to try to defend the Catholic error, see here by God's grace.

Table of Contents

Preface

1Cor. 10,11

Metaphorical versus literal language

Supper accounts and John 6: Conformity to Scripture, and consequences of the literalistic interpretation.

The uniqueness of the Catholic interpretation

The Lord's Supper is not a sacrifice for sins

Absence of the sacerdotal Eucharistic priesthood

Metaphorical view of Jn. 6 is not new.

Endocannibalism


15 posted on 03/28/2015 5:10:19 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: terycarl
A tremendous amount of space trying to discredit 2,000 years of Christian teaching and trying to justify a VERY bad decision.....

A tremendous amount of space of false teaching and trying to justify an erroneous tradition that was unseen and contrary to what the NT church believed according to Scripture, according to all that we read of the life of the church.

Take a shot at defending it.

16 posted on 03/28/2015 5:23:53 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: daniel1212
A tremendous amount of space of false teaching and trying to justify an erroneous tradition that was unseen and contrary to what the NT church believed according to Scripture, according to all that we read of the life of the church. Take a shot at defending it.

I don't have to defend the truth which has been taught for 2,015 years....if you want to deny it, it is up to you to prove why it is wrong and try to explain why some of the greatest minds in human history disagree with you....and Luther, and Calvin, and HenryVIII, and Wesley, and Zwingley, and Knox, and Smyth, and Fox, and London, andCampbells, and Baker-eddy and myriad of others ALL of who think that they are right....

17 posted on 03/28/2015 5:39:50 PM PDT by terycarl (common sense prevails over all)
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To: terycarl
I don't have to defend the truth which has been taught for 2,015 years....if you want to deny it, it is up to you to prove why it is wrong and try to explain why some of the greatest minds in human history disagree with you.

And some of the greatest minds in human history have been wrong, as they surely are here, disagreeing with the mind of Almighty God in Scripture, and perpetuating error thru traditions of men.

and myriad of others ALL of who think that they are right....

As does Rome, who is her own autocratic authority, while her own basis for that, that of the premise of perpetual ensured magisterial infallibility, is unScriptural, and unseen and unnecessary in the life of the church, as is her separate class of believers distinctively titled "priests," offering up "real" human flesh and blood as a sacrifice for sin, and literally consuming this to obtain spiritual life, around which act all else revolves, and looking to Peter as the first of a line of exalted infallible popes reigning over the church from Rome, and a separate class of believers distinctively titled "saints," and praying to created being in Heaven, and being formally justified by ones own sanctification/holiness, and thus enduring postmortem purifying torments in order to become good enough to enter Heaven, and saying rote prayers to obtain early release from it, and requiring clerical celibacy as the norm. Etc.

18 posted on 03/28/2015 7:46:28 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: CharlesOConnell; daniel1212; CynicalBear; metmom; boatbums; redleghunter
Jews say of the passover ”why is THIS night different from all others...this is what the LORD has done for ME”, not for my ancestors on some night long ago in history. The Lamb Who IS Slain From Before the Foundation of the World offers Himself in sacrifice both within and outside of time, is able and does so will to permit us to share in that and this one true perpetual sacrifice. Who can tell Him ”you can’t do that”?

Indeed, God can do as He wishes.  That by itself does not tell us what He in fact did.  For that we need the word of God.  And the word of God knows no such thing as this perpetual suffering of the Lamb.  First, consider the quote you have used:
Revelation 13:8  All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
That is the only occurrence of the exact phrase in the entire Scripture, so this must be the one to which you refer.  Yet the verb is not a present tense "IS"," as you have emphasized.  Rather, the verb is "slain" (ἐσφαγμένου), in the perfect, which is one of a number of ways to express the past tense:
τοῦ ἀρνίου τοῦ ἐσφαγμένου ἀπὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου.
Which translates as:
the lamb the [one] having been slain from [the] foundation of [the] world
The perfect tense in Greek typically points to a completed event in the past.  If the divinely inspired writer had wanted to convey some timeless nexus theory of the atonement, this would have been a great opportunity to simply use "esti(n)," "he is," as you attempted to suggest.  But your suggestion has no basis in the text, because under the direction of the Holy Spirit, our author chose the perfect tense, and as if to remove all doubt of its priority, describes it as an event completed "before the foundation of the world." 

But how then do we reconcile this event completed before the world was made with the fact that Jesus died at a later point in human history?  This can be easily understood as a typical feature of Hebraic thought, where events that were certain to occur because they were in God's plan are spoken of as having been completed even before they occurred in time.  A classic example of that is Jude 14:
Jude 1:14-15  And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,  (15)  To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
When he says, "the Lord cometh," the Greek form is "ἦλθεν, past tense, "he came" (using the aorist in this case), even though it points to the future event of the second coming.  The translators here used the present tense, really just to avoid confusing the typical English reader. But the fact remains that in Hebrew thought, the "prophetic perfect," as it is sometimes called, is a perfectly legitimate way to refer to events with two different time references, one the actual historical point in time, the other as an established event of the past, to indicate the certainty of the event in the divine plan.

But if any doubt remains, the writer of Hebrews here demolishes that residue of doubt:
Hebrews 10:9-13  then He said, "BEHOLD, I HAVE COME TO DO YOUR WILL, O GOD." He takes away the first that He may establish the second.  (10)  By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.  (11)  And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins.  (12)  But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God,  (13)  from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool.
Again, the sanctification of the believer, their setting apart for the divine purpose, is spoken of here as an accomplished, past tense event.  The word translated "once for all" is the adverb "ἐφάπαξ" "ephapax."  It is also used here, and also in connection with Christ's death.  Note the emphasis on the past tense nature of the event:
Romans 6:9-10  Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.  (10)  For in that he died, he died unto sin once : but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Note the holy author is not saying He is dying once.  He says "died once."  It is a concluded event.  So too in Hebrews, which the author there confirms in the following verses.  If we were sanctified, past tense, by the offering of Christ's body on our behalf, the sanctification could not be complete unless the offering was complete, and that is the whole thrust of our author, that the sacrifices under Moses could not accomplish a complete expiation of sin, but the death of Jesus does, and has, past tense, accomplished that for us.

Also observe the deliberate contrast. His death for us is past tense, a concluded event.  But what is His present state?  He lives!  These choices of tense are not trivial, or accidental, but divinely inspired.  This is how God actively wants us to think about these things.  If we think of Christ's death as a completed historical event, it is because God Himself has encouraged us to think of it that way.

Note again verse 12 from Hebrews 10.  The contrast is not the episodic suffering of the sacrificed animals with the perpetual suffering of Christ.  It is the effectiveness of the sacrifice.  The animals sacrificed did not and could not take away sin.  But Jesus, in one offering, expiated our sin forever, precluding the possibility or necessity of any future offerings. So the value of the offering, not the experience of it, is what goes on forever. There can be no further offering, not even of Christ, because after the event of His once for all offering, Jesus attains a new status, such that He lives, and is now is sitting at the right hand of God, waiting for the historical demise of all His enemies.  The offering is past, the waiting is now, the coming is future.

Now, I realize this will not satisfy those determined to certify to themselves that transubstantiation is real, even though it cannot be supported from Scripture. I would only offer to those so determined that it is generally unwise to invent whole systems of theoretical support, such as the time differential theory of eucharistic participation in the sacrifice of Christ, when the Scriptural account provides it's own, much simpler, more direct, and more meaningful account.  If you have faith in Christ, your sins are hid in Him, by virtue of His death for you.  When you partake of the Lord's table, you do it for the purpose He stated, and not one invented out of someone's pious imagination.  That purpose, the only imperative Christ ever gave concerning the observance of the Lord's Supper, is to remember Him.  If that  does not seem like enough for you, then I would contend you have too low a view of what it means to remember Him.  Nothing in my experience of the Christian faith could be richer or more full of His blessed presence than to recall in my innermost being the amazing love He showed to worthless sinner me on that dark day two millenia ago, when He gave His life, to give me life.

Peace,

SR

19 posted on 03/28/2015 9:52:29 PM PDT by Springfield Reformer (Winston Churchill: No Peace Till Victory!)
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To: agere_contra
Romans 9:15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.
20 posted on 03/29/2015 5:22:20 AM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
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