Posted on 12/18/2015 6:39:27 AM PST by NRx
Interesting.
Again, you are speculating that until means something occurred after a point in time. I suggest you do a search on the word until in the Bible and see what you find. Again, the English understanding of the word as it is used today does not convey the meaning used in the biblical languages. The word until does not mean not after a point in time. Consider a few examples.
From the OT, Michal the daughter of Saul had no children up to the day of her death (i.e. until the day of her death)” (2 Sam 6:23)
With respect to Moses and his place of burial, we read something to the effect “nobody knows his place of burial up to this present day (i.e. until this present day) (Deut 34:6)
Gen 8:5 speaks of the flood waters that continued to abate until month 10..The Waters diminished until the tenth month, etc.
Mt 28:29 is another interesting one as Christ says “ I am with you until the end of the world”
Of course translations may differ but the concept of Until, up to this day, up to the point that, etc are synonymous. If we are to apply your line of thinking to all these texts, then we would have to conclude that Micah had a child after she died? Somebody found where Moses is buried in the time of the OT (nobody today still has found it), Did the flood waters diminish until month 10 and stop abating, if so, we would sill have the biblical flood would we not? Christ is with us till the end of the world but after that point He is NOT????
I see no evidence that ashera poles looked anything like Christmas trees, and there certainly is no historical continuity between the two, since Christmas trees originated in medieval Germany and were popularized by Martin Luther.
The missed context is that idols cannot walk or talk, why fear it. And ashra were not may poles.
Deu 16:21
English Standard Version
“You shall not plant any tree as an Asherah beside the altar of the LORD your God that you shall make.
New American Standard Bible
“You shall not plant for yourself an Asherah of any kind of tree beside the altar of the LORD your God, which you shall make for yourself.
In any case, this is the only reference type in the Bible to trees and the worship of God. The reference is to Paganism and is expressly forbidden.
But, God is forgiving of the simple man, an honest mistake is easy for Him to display His Grace. But is it my weakness to honor Him by by avoiding practices that are offensive enough that they are mentioned, or is it wisdom to not study the Word and live solely by chance and Grace?
Such depth is lost in such a shallow life lived.
"You People", OTOH, deny that Jesus Christ is God and that's an absolute fact.
You seem to think it's not a very important issue. It doesn't speak well of you.
"You People", OTOH, deny that Jesus Christ is God and that's an absolute fact.
J*sus isn't in my Bible. Adam is in yours. I believe what is in my Bible; you don't believe everything in yours.
Till she brought forth her firstborn son—From these words Helvidius and other heretics most impiously inferred that the blessed Virgin Mary had other children besides Christ; but St. Jerome shews, by divers examples, that this expression of the Evangelist was a manner of speaking usual among the Hebrews, to denote by the word until, only what is done, without any regard to the future. Thus it is said, Genesis 8. 6 and 7, that Noe sent forth a raven, which went forth, and did not return till the waters were dried up on the earth. That is, did not return any more. Also Isaias 46. 4, God says: I am till you grow old. Who dare infer that God should then cease to be: Also in the first book of Machabees 5. 54, And they went up to mount Sion with joy and gladness, and offered holocausts, because not one of them was slain till they had returned in peace. That is, not one was slain before or after they had returned. God saith to his divine Son: Sit on my right hand till I make thy enemies thy footstool. Shall he sit no longer after his enemies are subdued? Yea and for all eternity. St. Jerome also proves by Scripture examples, that an only begotten son, was also called firstborn, or first begotten: because according to the law, the firstborn males were to be consecrated to God; Sanctify unto me, saith the Lord, every firstborn that openeth the womb among the children of Israel, etc. Ex. 13. 2.
“It’s always best to take scripture exactly as it is and not add or take away from it.”
It is always better to apply our God-given reason, wisdom, and scholarship to understanding scripture, as God intended we would. Of course, not everyone is capable of doing so. Most people don’t use their reason very effectively, have at best a nodding relationship with wisdom, and are not scholars. And no, I’m not making any claims for myself in those areas, either. Like almost everyone, I do better when I turn for understanding to those superior to me in these virtues.
“The Holy Spirit within us helps us to discern His word”
And yet, there is much difference of opinion among those who sincerely believe themselves guided by the Holy Spirit. That can only mean that we are guided by the Holy Spirit, but not in the way you think. It is my experience that sometimes the Holy Spirit guides me to the work of someone else who is faithful, smart, wise, and learned enough to arrive at a correct and profound understanding of the matter at hand. When we contemplate those of differing opinions, each of which they believe to be inspired by the Holy Spirit, we must conclude that the whole “guided by the Holy Spirit” thing didn’t work out the way they expected it to.
I would go so far as to suppose that the holier the man, the more help he gets from the Holy Spirit.
“and we don’t really need to rely on ancient scholars for His meaning”
Actually, the vast majority of us do.
When I am confronted by the work of a once-in-a-millennium intellect illuminated by a beautiful faith, profound wisdom, and supreme scholarship, I must laugh aloud at the conceit that I could approach those heights of understanding, even if I had a thousand years to work on it.
What an insult to God to discard gifts like Augustine and Aquinas. The 20th century certainly did not see their equal, by several orders of magnitude.
“It makes no difference to me if Mary continued to be a virgin until her death, but scripture clearly points to her and Joseph having had children between them.”
Well, you see, scripture clearly points to the opposite. That was the point of my post. Apparently you gave no thought to the arguments it contained.
“However, those that believe she remained a virgin also believe additional “traditions” that are not found in scripture.”
So do you. That is what my post showed.
However, that’s irrelevant. Even if a person holds many false beliefs, it does not follow that his every belief is false.
Those are all great men and have offered us great insight. I still urge you to approach scripture just as it is, asking the Holy Spirit to help you, and let Him speak to you directly. Jesus made a Way for us to go directly to the Father, and we can trust Him to lead us into all truth. Have a blessed Christmas my friend. We’re having ours early, which is today.
Merry Christmas.
Having the same birthday and day of passing is a Jewish sign of having “come into one’s days” ie, a perfect life(span.) For instance, Moses, in Jewish tradition, was born and passed on on the 7th of the month of Adar the month before Passover.
Therefor, as appears to the Jew, this seems to be the grafting of Moses’ (Jewish) perfection (l’havdil elef havdalos) onto Jesus. The early Jewish Torah-true Jesus-as-messiah cultists would have known this.
Thanks. Interesting. But if Jesus “was born and passed” on the same day, “Christmas” would be three days before Easter. Someone here suggested that the perfection you speak of meant that Jesus was conceived and passed on the same day, and, if that were the case, he would have been born nine months later, in December. That date would also coincide with the Jewish holidays in December.
I’m no expert here.
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