Luke 21

“The elect spoken of are the elect who are alive during the Tribulation. The Tribulation is to put an end to sin in Israel. The elect are Jews who will go alive into the millennium reign of Christ.”

According to Daniel 9, the seventieth week will accomplish 6 things. The Great Tribulation will accomplish an additional thing when it comes on the whole world.

Daniel 9:24
Seventy weeks are determined
For your people and for your holy city,
To finish the transgression,
To make an end of sins,
To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,
To seal up vision and prophecy,
And to anoint the Most Holy.

Revelation 3:10
Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

I think what I stated about the elect being gathered is merely saying what the scripture says in the passage I cited.

Some people think of Christ’s second coming as happening in moment of time. That’s not quite right. His first coming was a period of over 30 years His second coming is also a period of time. The rapture will happen in a moment. But this is just one event during the second coming.

He also returns to the earth to reign. He also defeats the antichrist. There is a gathering of the elect by angels. There is also a gathering of the wicked by angels.

But regardless of how anyone tries to accommodate the content of this passage into our various paradigms, there will a gathering of the elect by angels when Christ appears immediately after the signs in the heavens which indicate the Great Tribulation is over. That is just the literal reading of the words of the Olivet discourse.

The Great Tribulation begins at the abomination of desolation. It ends when the heavenly signs appear, Then Christ will appear, and His angels will gather His elect. These 7 signs were given in response to the question of what will be the sign of the End. The first 6 are the signs of His coming. And He did not answer their question directly about when. We know His initial statement about the temple being destroyed happened in 70 A.D. But the other prophecies have not happened.

I think (my opinion) the elect here are the last generation of New Testament believers. I think they are the living saints of the raptured church and the same multitude that comes out of the Great Tribulation in Revelation 7.

What other explanation can there be when the sequence of events described in the Olivet discourse match the seal judgments precisely?

“The Greek has a definite article before apostasia, making it a noun of prominence. That verse you posted may in fact be a strong statement that the Rapture must come BEFORE the white horse rider with the bow and no arrows can come on the scene, due to the ‘restrainer’ being taken out of the way. The Restrainer is taken to mean the Body of Christ indwelt by believers, who are the Bride of Christ.”

Apostasia is used only twice in the New Testament. Here and in Acts 21:21 where it refers to the accusation against Paul that he taught Jews who live away from Jerusalem to abandon the Law of Moses. Here is a more detailed explanation of the word:

http://biblehub.com/greek/646.htm

“apostasy – literally, ‘a leaving, from a previous standing.’”

Some think an apostasy here could be related to Christ’s saying that many would be offended. Paul also warned that in the last days some would depart from the faith.

But it could also be a departure that is connected to the restrainer standing aside.

There are many problems with claiming that the restrainer is the Holy Spirit. First, this would be a very ambiguous way to clear up the confusion on the part of the Thessalonians. It appears that they thought they had entered the Day of the Lord. This would mean they either missed the rapture or that they incorrectly understood that the rapture would happen before the Day of the Lord.

Paul and Peter both connect the return of Christ with the arrival of the Day of the Lord like a thief. It is clear we are to be ready.

1 Thessalonians 5:2-10
For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober. For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night. But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation. For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.

2 Peter 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.

This is where Peter addresses mockers who ask where is the sign of Christ’s coming, and where he tells us to be ready for His return.

Another reason that I do not think the restrainer is the Holy Spirit is because John says the spirit of antichrist was already operational and there were many antichrists. Also, the outpouring of the Holy Spirit was a fulfillment of the end times prophecy of Joel 2. Peter quotes from that passage in Acts 2. This outpouring is to be on “all flesh” with special promises to the sons and daughters of Israel.

Little is being restrained in the realm of evil these days. The Holy Spirit indwelling the church and individual believers only has a small impact on who rises to power or what they do with that power. With or without the presence of the church I am certain that antichrists will do the same thing.

Also, the passage describes exactly how antichrist will be revealed: the abomination of desolation. Does it make sense for the restrainer and church be taken out of the way for this revelation and then it happens 3.5 years later?

But the biggest deal breaker to me of this explanation is that it contradicts Christ’s return being at the arrival of the Day of the Lord (in connection with which we are admonished to be sober and ready for Christ’s return).

The order of events will be
1. the restrainer stands aside
2. antichrist is revealed by the abomination of desolation
3. the Day of the Lord arrives

I don’t see any possible way to reconcile the pre-trib position with this order of events. But pre-wrath is consistent. It also makes perfect sense for Peter and Paul to describe the Day of the Lord as sudden destruction by fire.

Perhaps I have not been clear enough, else why would you mischaracterize what I thought I posted.

You assert, "There are many problems with claiming that the restrainer is the Holy Spirit. First, this would be a very ambiguous way to clear up the confusion on the part of the Thessalonians." Oh my, this is not what I intended at all, for it is The Body of Christ, built by the presence of the Holy Spirit in believers that is acting as The Restrainer.

This Restrainer, The Body of Christ made up of all who have the Holy Spirit working in their human spirit, would be a concept Paul taught the Thessalonians, and indeed the very notion of same is due to Paul's instructions on the topic! It would therefore be a very unambiguous way to reassure the Thessalonians!

The folks in Thessalonika were upset, believing that perhaps the Tribulation had begun! Paul, having taught them that they are members of the Restrainer as they live with the Holy Spirit in them changing their 'want-to', and are still in the world, would be the immediate way to calm them and reassure them!

In 1 Thess 4:13-18, Paul gives the imagery as a way for these believers to comfort one another regarding death and life eternal. The concept of a corporate Body of Christ would be a major aspect of why Jesus gathers The Body of Christ to Himself (John14) and returns to the Father's House with them. The absence of this growing restraint on pagan society would help the new believers to understand just what IS the mystical Body of Christ! And the note to them that The Restrainer had not been taken out of the way --they being a part of hat Restrainer, as members in particular of the Body by the presence of the Holy Spirit in them-- would immediately negate the deceit someone had planted with them as if the info came from Paul.

Your error in mischaracterizing what I wrote must be tied to my failure to clearly establish who the Restrainer is ... it is the body of believers having the Holy Spirit present int heir human spirits, changing their want-to thus acting as a restraining power upon sin and upon the pagan world around them by association. When THAT Restrainer is taken out of the way, it does not mean the Holy Spirit will then be gone from the earth, because --as you and others have pointed out-- the multitude saved during the Tribulation are the work of the Holy Spirit!

You offered:

The order of events will be
1. the restrainer stands aside
2. antichrist is revealed by the abomination of desolation
3. the Day of the Lord arrives
I don’t see any possible way to reconcile the pre-trib position with this order of events. But pre-wrath is consistent. It also makes perfect sense for Peter and Paul to describe the Day of the Lord as sudden destruction by fire.

The Restrainer is TAKEN out of the way. If indeed the Restrainer is the body of Christ, made up of all believers having the oil in their lamps, er, having The Holy Spirit in their spirit, then what the Lord taught His disciples in John 14 is even more clear! He promised to come and gather them to Himself and return to the Father's House. The Body of Christ / The Bride of Christ is The Restrainer, by the power of the Holy Spirit dwelling in the believers.

May I ask, what effect on someone who is a non-believer would having a loved one who exhibited the indwelling influence of Holy Spirit restraint in their behavior mechanism suddenly disappearing in a massive DEPARTURE have upon that non-believer? And what of the sudden rising of dead Christians to have bodies then disappearing into the clouds have upon a non-believer who witnessed such a thing?

Anyone determined to not believe The Word of God and the witness of The Restrainer will quickly latch upon a great lie to explain the events ... and we know that God will send to the unbelieving world 'strong delusion' ... I call it Magic Thinking.

“Perhaps I have not been clear enough, else why would you mischaracterize what I thought I posted.”

I think you did state what you were saying clearly and I just incorrectly assumed that your belief was the more common idea of the restrainer being the Holy Spirit.

Interestingly, the question of who or what the restrainer is has been asked since this passage was written. The early church fathers observed that the identity of the restrainer is not plainly contained in the passage itself. And Paul alludes to their knowing this by his in-person teaching.

2 Thessalonians 2:5
Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things?

The early church fathers believed the restrainer was the Roman empire governed by emperors. They recognized that the empire, according to Daniel, would be divided into 10 partition, each with its own ruler. And after this, the antichrist would subvert 3 and dominate the other 7.

This may have been part of the reason that Christianity embraced a so-called Holy Roman Empire. That error carried forward into many errors of the Catholic Church which was ruled from Rome.

Reformers came to believe the restrainer was not specifically the Roman empire, but more broadly, God-ordained, human government. Some Christians have even ascribed the seat of power moving from Rome to Great Britain, and then to the United States.

The early church fathers taught that the Church would need to face the antichrist before Christ’s return. Here is a brief synopsis of their comments on the matter:

http://biblelight.net/fathers-on-antichrist.htm

Tertullian, also writes, “Now the privilege of this favor [the rapture] awaits those who shall at the coming of the Lord be found in the flesh [those still living], and who shall, owing to the oppressions of the time of Antichrist, deserve by an instantaneous death [a reference to the rapture] which is accomplished by a sudden change, to become qualified to join the rising saints [those in Christ who were already dead]; as he writes to the Thessalonians” (On the Resurrection of the Flesh, xli).

“Paul, having taught them that they are members of the Restrainer as they live with the Holy Spirit in them changing their ‘want-to’, and are still in the world, would be the immediate way to calm them and reassure them!”

Why is the Church never called the restrainer anywhere else in scripture? Why does Paul refer to “what restrains” and “he who restrains” if this is the Church? The Church is the bride of Christ and would not be referred to in the masculine.

Ephesians 5:27
that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish.

The revelation of antichrist happens exactly in the middle of Daniel’s seventieth week. It is at this time Satan is cast out of Heaven. The antichrist becomes the Devil incarnate through, apparently, a false resurrection. Antichrist will reign for 42 months, until the end of Daniel’s seventieth week, when he will be destroyed by the brightness of Christ’s appearing.

Daniel also describes the action of Michael during this exact moment, i.e. the middle of Daniel’s seventieth week:

Daniel 12:1
At that time Michael shall stand up,
The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people;
And there shall be a time of trouble,
Such as never was since there was a nation,
Even to that time.
And at that time your people shall be delivered,
Every one who is found written in the book.

Commentators have noted that the Hebrew term here translated “stand up” also means “stand aside” if the person is already standing. Since Michael is described as standing, it could properly read, “at this time Michael shall stand aside.” And this is exactly what the the word apostasia means in 2 Thessalonians 2.

Also, keep in mind that these things were not revelation or mysteries. The mysteries that were not revealed in the Old Testament, such as the Church and the translation of living believers at the rapture, are revealed in the New Testament. But what we learn about the antichrist largely is based on a correct understanding of Daniel. The book of Daniel is how we know about antichrist, the seventieth week, the abomination of desolation, the Roman empire in prophecy, and much more. Second Thessalonians alludes to Daniel. Christ alludes to Daniel. It is very reasonable to think that Paul may have been referring to his personal teaching on Daniel when he tells the Thessalonians to remember what he had already taught them.

So if Michael stands aside, if he quits restraining Satan from his plot to take human form, rule the world, attack Israel, and persecute followers of Christ, then this passage makes perfect sense.

While I can not prove absolutely that the restrainer is Michael because God chose not to provide such absolute proof, we do know for certain that Michael will play an active role in the timing of the revelation of antichrist at the abomination of desolation. The scriptures confirm this with certainty.

“If indeed the Restrainer is the body of Christ, made up of all believers having the oil in their lamps, er, having The Holy Spirit in their spirit, then what the Lord taught His disciples in John 14 is even more clear! He promised to come and gather them to Himself and return to the Father’s House.”

John 14:2-3
In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a PLACE [emphasis mine] for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.

Revelation 12:8-10
but they did not prevail, nor was a PLACE [emphasis mine] found for them in heaven any longer. So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down.”

Right now Jesus is interceding for us. And right now Satan is accusing us. Right now Satan has a place in Heaven. It is not his home or abode. It is not his permanent residence. However, room needs to be made to accommodate those who have been assigned to reside in the “place” Christ is preparing for us. Part of Christ preparing a place for us may include banishing Satan from Heaven forever.

In Revelation we have the souls of martyrs receiving white raiment around what would appear to be the middle of Daniel’s seventieth week when Satan is kicked out of Heaven. I approximate this based on comparing the Olivet discourse in Matthew, Mark, and Luke with Revelation 6. So it may be that the white raiment signifies that the accuser is no longer there accusing saints before God.

“May I ask, what effect on someone who is a non-believer would having a loved one who exhibited the indwelling influence of Holy Spirit restraint in their behavior mechanism suddenly disappearing in a massive DEPARTURE have upon that non-believer? And what of the sudden rising of dead Christians to have bodies then disappearing into the clouds have upon a non-believer who witnessed such a thing?”

Let’s look at the claim that a pre-trib rapture would result in many converts to Christ. We do see men being martyred for the word of God and the testimony of Jesus during Daniel’s seventieth week. We do see those who are hated by all nations for Christ’s name. But are these “tribulation saints” who are not a part of the Church? Or are they last-generation New Testament believers who are also part of the body of Christ?

I believe the latter for a few reasons. First, there is going to be a strong delusion. This is in 2 Thessalonians 2. It seems to follow the rapture. While men seem terrified of Christ’s return at the end of Revelation 6, we later see them as unrepentant. Second, if the rapture occurs before the two witnesses being caught up to Heaven, then what happens to them would not be nearly as awe inspiring:

Revelation 11:11
Now after the three-and-a-half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them.

I think this event will happen at about the middle of Daniel’s seventieth week also. The two witnesses prophecy for 1260 days. Then they are killed by the beast that ascends from the bottomless pit. This probably refers to a revived Roman empire, or to the antichrist who presides over this empire. It would make more sense if the rapture happens some time after this, and when people see Christ visibly return and take the living believers and the deceased saints from their graves, they will be utterly terrified. I can’t imagine the rapture happening first and then the same people celebrate killing the two witnesses and become awestruck when they are raptured up to Heaven. The rapture of the church will be a much more monumental event. Other than Jews, I do not expect to see a large part of the population repent after the rapture. Indeed, the testimony is that they repented not. And so Jesus asks if He will find faith on the earth at His coming. That must be when He returns to bring final destruction on the antichrist.

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