Posted on 05/02/2018 2:35:21 AM PDT by JosephJames
How ironic that they anticipate going through the Great Tribulation - the Time of Jacob's Trouble - when Scripture says the bride is not appointed unto wrath (I Thessalonians 5:9) but that Jesus is our deliverer from the coming wrath. (I Thess. 1:10). Chances are they just MIGHT go through it, though, if they do not accept the truth of the gospel.
1 Corinthians 9:27 but I punish my body and enslave it, so that after proclaiming to others I myself should not be disqualified.
2 Timothy 2:12 if we endure, we will also reign with him; if we deny him, he will also deny us;
Philippians 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed me, not only in my presence, but much more now in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who is at work in you, enabling you both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
What we have is context.
Paul isn't going to say in one place salvation is lost....though that isn't what those passages say, and then in another place say we don't lose salvation.
One has to read the verses in context to understand their meaning.
What Catholics fail to realize is that there’s a difference between salvation and rewards.
Salvation is secure in Christ. As pointed out, we are sealed until the day of redemption by the Holy Spirit who is given to us as the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it.
However rewards are gained or lost for faithful service and sold winning for example.
John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
John 6:37-39 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.
John 10:25-30 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one.”
Romans 4:16 Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring-not only to those who are of the law but also to those who have the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all.
1 Corinthians 1:4-8 I give thanks to my God always for you because of the grace of God that was given you in Christ Jesus,that in every way you were enriched in him in all speech and all knowledge—even as the testimony about Christ was confirmed among you—so that you are not lacking in any gift, as you wait for the revealing of our Lord Jesus Christ, who will sustain you to the end, guiltless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Corinthians 1:21-22 And it is God who establishes us with you in Christ, and has anointed us, and who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.
2 Corinthians 5:4-8 For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened—not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.
So we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, for we walk by faith, not by sight. Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.
Ephesians 1:13-14 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritanceuntil we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.
Ephesians 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
Philippians 1:6 And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.
Colossians 1:13-14 He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
Colossians 2:13-14 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.
Colossians 3:3 For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. When Christ who is your life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.
1 Peter 1:3-5 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God's power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
Hebrews 6:17-20 So when God desired to show more convincingly to the heirs of the promise the unchangeable character of his purpose, he guaranteed it with an oath, so that by two unchangeable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled for refuge might have strong encouragement to hold fast to the hope set before us. We have this as a sure and steadfast anchor of the soul, a hope that enters into the inner place behind the curtain, where Jesus has gone as a forerunner on our behalf, having become a high priest forever after the order of Melchizedek.
Jude v24 "Now unto Him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy"
1 John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/3156607/posts?page=313#313
2 Corinthians 1:21-22 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
For which the Greek, from the Byzantine, is:
2Corinthians 1:21-22 ο δε βεβαιων ημας συν υμιν εις χριστον και χρισας ημας θεος ο και σφραγισαμενος ημας και δους τον αρραβωνα του πνευματος εν ταις καρδιαις ημων
The first word in bold above is “bebaion,” the idea of confirmation, frequently used in commercial settings to confirm a bargain. Which of course makes sense of the remaining terms used here, which are also elements of a secured contract.
The second word in bold above is “sphragisamenos,” being sealed is to be marked by the signature, signet ring, or other unique proof of identity, that we belong to God, and this sealing is done by God, who is the one taking action in this verse. We do not and cannot seal ourselves. We do not, by our own powers, have access to God’s “signet ring.”
The third bolded word above is “arrabona,” and indicates what we might loosely refer to as earnest money, but in Hebrew culture conveys more the idea of a pledge of covenant, a security given as a guarantee that the deal will go through, though we only receive part payment at the beginning. See ערב for the related Hebrew stem indicating “pledge.”
Pretty clear isn’t it.
Sometimes I have to wonder just how many verses it takes to convince someone that God meant what He said.
And I know that there’s odd verses tucked away in other NT books that say the same thing.
I encounter them when I’m reading Scripture and think to myself that I’ll have to add it to my list when I get home. Then I forget where I read it.
Some people just don't want to be convinced no matter how many verses you show them. They have their "traditions" and their "that's just what we believe" reasons for rejecting what is clearly taught in Scripture. There's a lot of pride to overcome.
I am so sorry to jump in when I know not the conversation, but
Saw a tweet earlier that I thought was good.
something like
When people ask what would Jesus do?
Don’t be surprised by tables over turning and a whip being applied.
Something like that.
It’s an open forum.
All comments are welcome.
Yes, sometimes Jesus does the unexpected.
And He also never sinned. Which puts those actions in a different light.
It kind of contradicts the *Turn the other cheek* crowd, doesn’t it?
What YOU fail to realize is that Christ holds us responsible for our BEHAVIOR.
You can’t simply check the John 3:16 box, and then behave as you wish, and still expect to go to heaven.
“believe” means to LIVE that belief.
Because we will each fall short, we have a responsibility to confess, regret, and repent, when we sin.
But, that is just too hard for you and Luther.
Yes, and YOU have missed that context.
Not to mention MEANING.
You confuse Christ holding the doors of heaven open, with you having the will to take the path that leads through it.
The gift from God of infallibility is not tied to the holiness or sinfulness of the person, of the Pope. I do not believe that I know more than Christ and thus I do not believe that Christ made a mistake by founding his Church on 12 sinners (apostles) instead of 12 perfect angles from heaven or perhaps 12 men perfect as many Christians feel to be.
You quoted me: “when even Catholic bishops are no longer in agreement about the fundamentals of our faith and morals”. And you wrote: “There are about a billion Roman Catholics who interpret Scripture in their own way. Your point fails.”
Yes, there are many Catholic lay people and many Catholic bishops in hell. Catholics who go to hell go more deeply into hell because they receive more fullness of truth and more of the fullness of the means of sanctification, but they did not correspond with these gifts, these graces from God, and ended up trusting in themselves rather than in God. If one is truly of good will and thus seeking to discover the will of God, God will not deceive this person here on earth in his journey toward the fullness of Truth Who is God. But if this person is really seeking his own will and then seeks to convince himself and others that he is seeking God’s will, this person will deceive himself.
To underline the great responsibility of the priests and bishops even more, I quote three saints before the protestant rebellion (reformation), Saints John Chrysostom, John Eudes and Athanasius, who more or less said: “The road (or the floor of hell) to Hell is paved with the bones of priests and monks, and the skulls of bishops are the lamp posts that light the path!”
I am not going to let bad priests and bishop detour me from getting to heaven, as have done so many people in the last 2000 years. Someone I know, who never enters a church except maybe for a baptism of a nephew or niece of his, says to me every once in a while: “We ought to kill all the priests”. I reply to him: “There are many priests in hell; why do you want to spend eternity with them?”!!! Let them go to hell; save yourself!
There are more rebellious Catholics today against the teachings of the Catholic Church than ever before (example: Humanae Vitae, 1968, regarding contraception); so many want to feel saved but without the cross of Christ, without changing their lives. Catholics have received more talents and thus will receive a greater punishment for not obeying God’s holy will (Lk 12:47; Lev 26:18), as we see also in the Parable of the talents (Mt 25:14-30).
Did God give us the Ten Commandments for our good or for our evil? Did God offer us the proper explanation of these Ten Commandments from his one Church for our good or for our evil? The Truth of God will set us truly free (Jn 8:32) but the truth not of God will make us slaves now and for all eternity. God, who is love, will not force anyone to seek the Truth according to God nor to spend eternity with him in heaven. We are free to choose!
If I am seeking truth from God, not from myself, I would be willing to dialogue and listen to those of good will, who present also documents concerning Divine Revelation throughout the centuries. If not, I would only seek to defend and justify my infallible opinion, and thus not ask questions to understand better what the other was trying to say, while putting aside as worthless whatever the other says that is not according to MY “intelligence” and MY (human) “wisdom”!
If I say I do the will of God so as to live the Our Father, “Thy will be done”, but I have willingly deceived myself by convincing myself that I do the will of God even though I do my own will, I will end up in hell. If I am not willing to dialogue with and listen to those of good will not in agreement with me, I am not seeking the truth outside of myself, from God, but the truth in the way I want the truth and reality. In heaven there is room for only one God. Those who go to hell decide the truth for themselves as did Adam and Eve (Gen 3:4-5). But if each one in hell dictates the truth, wanting to command all the others, who ends up commanding all the others in hell? The strongest one, who is called Satan. Might makes right, for those who do not want to seek and submit to Divine Revelation, but to themselves as little gods. Divine Revelation tells us that the strong must help the weaker ones; if we do not interpret Divine Revelation according to the guidance of God that he has given us, automatically we go toward “might makes right”, the law of the jungle as it is in hell. I submit to the guidance and explanation of Divine Revelation from the one Church that Christ founded. Who do most people today submit to, themselves, the world, Satan?
If I have true humility, I am willing to recognize that God is the Creator and I am a creature. This means I realize that I am not the truth, but Christ is the truth (Jn 14:6). This means that after having sought out the one true Church, I seek the guidance of the Church that Christ left on earth, which offers me the true interpretation of the words of Christ; in this way there is less risk living in my own subjectivism, which very easily ends up being my own disguised egoism. If I truly seek the will of God outside of my head, that is from God in Divine Revelation, explained by the living Authority that Christ left us, and live accordingly, I have the hope of salvation. The only time in all four Gospels that Jesus said to learn from him was when he said: “Learn from me; for I am meek and humble of heart” (Mt 11:29-30)!
You do not have to try to convince me that you are right about interpreting the Bible on your own and without having recourse to the Authority that Christ left on earth. Convince God when you die, that you did everything possible to discover the Truth from God, outside of the subjectivism of your own head. Explain to God how He must do things! No one goes to heaven by chance, and no one goes to hell by chance; each person makes a very radical eternal choice in this short life, to follow himself who he thinks he is God, or to follow God who is not himself. Best wishes for all eternity! Pray for me so I will not be one of the many Catholics who end up in hell who did not obey the will of God explained infallibly by the living Authority that Christ left us on earth. And I will pray for you.
Oh really?
You know that how?
And just where did I ever say that?
Because we will each fall short, we have a responsibility to confess, regret, and repent, when we sin.
Did I ever say we didn't?
But, that is just too hard for you and Luther.
What's Luther got to do with it? Who's he that I should care what he thinks?
“You know that how?”
Because you jumped into a thread in support of a poster who was contending “once saved always saved”!
Well there are a lot of errors in that article, too many really that I have no time for. Enough to say we’re called to watch for the coming of the Lord.....be aware of the times but keep occupied until he comes in the work of salvation for the unsaved.
What YOU fail to realize is that Christ holds us responsible for our BEHAVIOR.
You can’t simply check the John 3:16 box, and then behave as you wish, and still expect to go to heaven.
“believe” means to LIVE that belief.
Because we will each fall short, we have a responsibility to confess, regret, and repent, when we sin.
But, that is just too hard for you and Luther.
31 posted on 5/3/2018, 10:25:57 AM by G Larry (There is no great virtue in bargaining with the Devil)
I just happened to see this post of yours from a couple years back. I couldn’t agree with you more. Whenever I say it the usual suspects dump on me. Right now on another thread someone is taking about once saved, always saved. Just thought I would let you know at least one other person on this earth agrees with you. Regards.
On our way to Mass to receive Holy Communion on the tongue.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.