Posted on 06/13/2018 7:22:36 AM PDT by NKP_Vet
Before one word was written down man believed in God and worshipped God. It came from stories passed down though the centuries. In other words Oral Tradition.
This is what "tradition" gets you...equating Mary with the Spirit and the Son. It is why Christianity rejects the Roman Catholic claim of "sacred tradition" being equal to that of Scripture.
| Second Vatican Council (Lumen gentium ## 61-62) For this reason, the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of: | New Testament |
| Advocate | My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 2and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world. 1 John 2:1-2 NASB |
| Auxiliatrix [Latin for helper, aide] | "But the Helper [paraklétos, GR, (a) an advocate, intercessor, (b) a consoler, comforter, helper, (c) Paraclete.], the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you. John 14:26 NASB |
| Mediatrix [earliest reference is 4th century as applied to Mary] | 5For there is one God, and one mediator [mesités, GR, properly, an arbitrator ("mediator"), guaranteeing the performance of all the terms stipulated in a covenant (agreement). In the NT this is only applied to Christ] also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time. 1 Timothy 2:5-6 NASB |
Bible quotes from NASB
RCC position on Mary from https://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/marya4.htm
But as evidenced in many of my prior posts, Roman Catholicism continues to add,and wants to continue to add, to these false titles to Mary.
In August 1996, a Mariological Congress was held in Częstochowa, Poland, where a commission was established in response to a request of the Holy See. The congress sought the opinion of scholars present there regarding the possibility of proposing a fifth Marian dogma on Mary as Co-Redemptrix, Mediatrix, and Advocate.
The commission unanimously declared that it was not opportune, voting 23-0 against the proposed dogma.[23][24] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Co-Redemptrix
It was not opportune?? Wait a second. If it is truth it is truth....whether the time is opportune or not.
Like so much of the history of the Marian dogmas, Rome has to give it enough time and votes to declare something.
That Rome is hesitant to declare this should be the thing that tells a Roman Catholic this is not legitimate.
There is also currently under petition a Fifth Marian dogma.http://www.fifthmariandogma.com/
If it is truth and so widely believed....why does Rome have to conduct an opinion poll on this or garner support to pass this??
The Roman Catholic reliance upon Mary and the invocation of Mary in the roles noted above and desired in the Fifth Marian dogma clearly state one thing: a complete lack of faith in the sufficiency of Christ.
That should scare a Roman Catholic to following Christ and Christ alone for their salvation.
The Bible denies that scripture is sufficient as the complete rule of faith.
You might want to re-read all of 2 Timothy and keep things in context.
14You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;
17so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.
2 Timothy 3:14-17 NASB
Paul says that much Christian teaching is to be found in the tradition which is handed down by word of mouth (2 Tim. 2:2).
No,. Paul says the following:
You therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. 2The things which you have heard from me in the presence of many witnesses, entrust these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also. 2 Timothy 2:1-2 NASB
He instructs us to “stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter” (2 Thess. 2:15).
The problem is....no Roman Catholic is able to tell us exactly what those "traditions" are. And we have asked many, many times.
However, if you continue to read 2 Thessalonians Paul gives some insight as to what those "traditions" are.
6Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from every brother who leads an unruly life and not according to the tradition which you received from us. 7For you yourselves know how you ought to follow our example, because we did not act in an undisciplined manner among you, 8nor did we eat anyone’s bread without paying for it, but with labor and hardship we kept working night and day so that we would not be a burden to any of you; 9not because we do not have the right to this, but in order to offer ourselves as a model for you, so that you would follow our example. 10For even when we were with you, we used to give you this order: if anyone is not willing to work, then he is not to eat, either. 11For we hear that some among you are leading an undisciplined life, doing no work at all, but acting like busybodies. 12Now such persons we command and exhort in the Lord Jesus Christ to work in quiet fashion and eat their own bread. 13But as for you, brethren, do not grow weary of doing good.
14If anyone does not obey our instruction in this letter, take special note of that person and do not associate with him, so that he will be put to shame. 15Yet do not regard him as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother. 2 Thessalonians 3:6-15 NASB
Note also Paul's statement in v14.
Scripture is the final authority upon which Christianity is based.
Yet God has given us His written word throughout time so we have a written account of His truth.
Exodus 20 is the first instance of a written account of God speaking to man. This was later expanded to the entire Law...which was written down.
The appeal to the written word, for it does not change unlike Roman Catholic "tradition", shows the superiority of the written word in these matters.
An interesting word study on tradition shows it is usually condemned in the Bible.
A word study on write is also very interesting. I used biblegateway.com for both.
I encourage you to do the same.
Oral tradition was one thing. When the patriarchs talked about God’s law, that was a different matter. Getting the former wrong would be a cause for correction or further instruction. Getting the latter wrong would get you stoned to death.
Matthew 15:1-9 Then Pharisees and scribes came to Jesus from Jerusalem and said, “Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat.” He answered them, “And why do you break the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition? For God commanded, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘Whoever reviles father or mother must surely die.’ But you say, ‘If anyone tells his father or his mother, “What you would have gained from me is given to God,” he need not honor his father.’ So for the sake of your tradition you have made void the word of God. You hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy of you, when he said: “‘This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me; in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’”
Matthew 22:29 But Jesus answered them, “You are wrong, because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God.
Mark 7:1-13 Now when the Pharisees gathered to him, with some of the scribes who had come from Jerusalem, they saw that some of his disciples ate with hands that were defiled, that is, unwashed. (For the Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they wash their hands properly, holding to the tradition of the elders, and when they come from the marketplace, they do not eat unless they wash. And there are many other traditions that they observe, such as the washing of cups and pots and copper vessels and dining couches. And the Pharisees and the scribes asked him, “Why do your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat with defiled hands?”
And he said to them, “Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written,“‘This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me; in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’ You leave the commandment of God and hold to the tradition of men.”
And he said to them, “You have a fine way of rejecting the commandment of God in order to establish your tradition! For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘Whoever reviles father or mother must surely die.’ But you say, ‘If a man tells his father or his mother, “Whatever you would have gained from me is Corban”’ (that is, given to God) then you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or mother, thus making void the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And many such things you do.”
Mark 12:24 Jesus said to them, “Is this not the reason you are wrong, because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God?
Acts 17:2-3 And Paul went in, as was his custom, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures, explaining and proving that it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead, and saying, “This Jesus, whom I proclaim to you, is the Christ.”
Acts 17:11 Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so.
Mary and Joseph consummated their marriage as Joseph was instructed to by the angel, *Take Mary as your WIFE* and Scripture is very clear about.
Jesus was Mary's FIRSTBORN son, and God's ONLY Son.
Matthew 1:18-25 Now the birth of Jesus Christ took place in this way. When his mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child from the Holy Spirit. And her husband Joseph, being a just man and unwilling to put her to shame, resolved to divorce her quietly.
But as he considered these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not fear to take Mary as your wife, for that which is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.” All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet: “Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and they shall call his name Immanuel” (which means, God with us). When Joseph woke from sleep, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded him: he took his wife, but knew her not until she had given birth to a son. And he called his name Jesus.
Psalm 69:8 I have become a stranger to my brothers, an alien to my mother's sons.
Matthew 1:24-25 When Joseph woke from sleep, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded him: he took his wife, but knew her not until she had given birth to a son. And he called his name Jesus.
Matthew 12:46-47 While He was still speaking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers were standing outside, seeking to speak to Him. And someone said to Him, “Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside seeking to speak to You.”
Matthew 13:55 “Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?”
Mark 6:2-3 And when the Sabbath had come, He began to teach in the synagogue; and the many listeners were astonished, saying, “Where did this man get these things, and what is this wisdom given to Him, and such miracles as these performed by His hands?”... “Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James, and Joses, and Judas, and Simon? Are not His sisters here with us?”
Luke 2:1-7 In those days a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be registered. This was the first registration when Quirinius was governor of Syria. And all went to be registered, each to his own town.
And Joseph also went up from Galilee, from the town of Nazareth, to Judea, to the city of David, which is called Bethlehem, because he was of the house and lineage of David, to be registered with Mary, his betrothed, who was with child. And while they were there, the time came for her to give birth. And she gave birth to her firstborn son and wrapped him in swaddling cloths and laid him in a manger, because there was no place for them in the inn.
John 2:12 After this He went down to Capernaum, He and His mother, and His brothers, and His disciples; and there they stayed a few days.”
John 7:2-5 Now the Jews’ Feast of Booths was at hand. So his brothers said to him, “Leave here and go to Judea, that your disciples also may see the works you are doing. For no one works in secret if he seeks to be known openly. If you do these things, show yourself to the world.” For not even his brothers believed in him.
Acts 1:14 These all with one mind were continually devoting themselves to prayer, along with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers
1 Corinthians 9:4-5 Do we not have a right to eat and drink? Do we not have a right to take along a believing wife, even as the rest of the apostles, and the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas?
Galatians 1:19 But I did not see any other of the apostles except James, the Lord’s brother
Strong's Concordance
http://biblehub.com/greek/80.htm
adelphos: a brother
Original Word: ἀδελφός, οῦ, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: adelphos
Phonetic Spelling: (ad-el-fos')
Short Definition: a brother
Definition: a brother, member of the same religious community, especially a fellow-Christian.
Here is a link to the occurrences of the Greek word *adelphos*.
http://biblehub.com/greek/80.htm
The word *sister* (adelphe) in the Greek is the same.
http://biblehub.com/greek/79.htm
The word used is *brother* not *cousin*.
It can't mean a member of the same religious community in the context in which they occur, because then that would mean every man in Israel could be identified as Jesus' brother. So that would not identify Jesus as anyone in particular's brother.
It's not going to mean *brother in Christ* as that concept was not yet in place and the Jews, who knew Jesus as a Jew and knew His brothers as Jews, would not even begin to understand the new birth and what being in Christ meant.
They didn't even understand who JESUS was, much less being a *brother in Christ*.
The only definition left then, is to mean physical brother.
And it would not be *cousin*.
The word for *relative* that is used for Elizabeth is *suggenes*, not *adelphe*.
http://biblehub.com/greek/4773.htm
Strong's Concordance
suggenes: akin, a relative
Original Word: συγγενής, ές
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: suggenes
Phonetic Spelling: (soong-ghen-ace')
Short Definition: akin, a relative
Definition: akin to, related; subst: fellow countryman, kinsman.
Aside from being reduced to semantics about what worship is, the hair splitting they engage in, they are breaking the second commandment in fact. They have made a graven image and they bow down to it.
Then instead of the subjective internal issue of whether what they are doing is worship, one can look at the objective acts in which one can see them actually participating.
Exodus 20:4-6 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.
Of course it would make a perfect sense.
She knew she had not had sex and knew then how babies were made. It would have been a perfectly reasonable statement. *How can I be pregnant? I haven't had sex yet.*
The claim that it meant that she meant she was never going to have sex doesn't even play into a comment as basic and simple as that. It's just wishful thinking.
I don't know why Catholics are so consumed with the idea that having sex with her lawful husband was somehow beneath her.
IOW, sex is dirty and sinful.
Show us where.
Don't just throw out *You're wrong* and not show where.
And how do you detect tone of voice in the written word?
Or are you just projecting or is it wishful thinking?
Or maybe trying to discredit the message by attacking the messenger?
On what basis do you conclude anger in his posts?
So what are those traditions?
How do you know they were taught by the apostles?
How do you know that they were passed down faithfully, without corruption?
Please provide verification for your claims.
Prove it.
The other thing our Roman Catholic friends should keep in mind is a lot of the "tradition" they are citing as an example was constructed by the Pharisees to get around the requirements of the Law.
In essence they had built a fence around the Law to "avoid breaking it", yet they were breaking it.
Indeed. I would venture to say that most of the Pharisee’s deferred to the Talmud in their edicts as opposed to the Torah which was supposed to be the Law.
Do you have a cite or website for you translation of the Greek from which Ave Maria was derived?
And why is it important whether it’s “hail” or “greetings”?
“Prove it”
Maybe the dumbest comment I’ve ever read.
Maybe the dumbest comment I’ve ever read.
That's kinda the idea for the following:
13Who is there to harm you if you prove zealous for what is good? 14But even if you should suffer for the sake of righteousness, you are blessed. AND DO NOT FEAR THEIR INTIMIDATION, AND DO NOT BE TROUBLED,
15but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence;
16and keep a good conscience so that in the thing in which you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ will be put to shame.
1 Peter 3:13-16 NASB
Hence one of the primary reasons the Christians relies upon Scripture as the source of truth.
16All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work. 2 Timothy 3:16-17 NASB
That you cannot prove it should be of a serious concern to you.
Of the major translations only the Douay-Rheims renders the passage as Hail, full of grace.
The Greek for the passage in question is as follows:
καὶ εἰσελθὼν πρὸς αὐτὴν εἶπεν Χαῖρε, κεχαριτωμένη, ὁ Κύριος μετὰ σοῦ.
I have bolded the word for Greetings. It is in the imperative mood in Greek. Normally this is the mood of command.
However, Daniel Wallace, who has forgotten more NT Greek than most of us will ever learn, notes the following:
Sometimes the imperative is used in a stereotyped manner in which it has suppressed its original injunctive force. The imperative is reduce to an exclamation. This occurs especially in greetings.
Luke 1:28 Greetings, favored [lady]! The Lord is with you.
Greek Grammer Beyond the Basics, Wallace, p493
I offer the following from the Word Bible Commentary series on Luke 1:28. These were the books used in my seminary classes. This section is posted in its entirety.
28 εἰσελθὼν πρός, “going into,” is Lukan idiom (Acts 11:3; 16:40; 17:2; 28:8; and cf. esp. 10:3) and is balanced by the ἀπῆλθεν ἀπʼ αὐτῆς, “he departed from her,” of v 38. χαῖρε, “rejoice,” can be a conventional Greek greeting (Matt 26:49; 27:29; 28:9; Mark 15:18; John 19:3; not found in the LXX)—through which, nevertheless, an actual call to joy could sound in appropriate contexts (Strobel, ZNW 53 [1962] 87–105), as would be the case in this text. Here, however, the threefold structure: call to rejoicing + a vocative of address + a reference to the attitude or action of God which is the ground for joy (Stock, Bib 61 [1980] 469) takes us to a frequent OT pattern which in the LXX is introduced by χαῖρε in Joel 2:21; Zeph 3:14; Zech 9:9 (χαῖρε is only found elsewhere in Lam 4:21 in a parody of this pattern; cf. Ps 32:11; Isa 12:6; 44:23; 49:13; 52:9; 54:1; Joel 2:23; etc). Compare also the role of joy in the angelic statements of Luke 1:14 and 2:10. Mary is here greeted with a mini-oracle of salvation. χαῖρε is chosen here over joy words for the sake of alliteration with the following κεχαριτωμένη, “favored one,” and need not be Septuagintal. The extended parallelism between Zeph 3:14–17 and Luke 1:28, 30, 31 claimed by Laurentin (Structure, 151–59) and others, and made a basis for an identification of Mary as “daughter of Zion,” has little to commend it.
χαριτιουσθαι is a quite rare Hellenistic verb (only elsewhere in the NT at Eph 1:6 in the active). Etymologically it should mean “to be furnished with grace,” and it is used both in relation to intrinsic qualities for which a person is to be commended (like the English “well-favored”; cf. Cole, AER 139 [1958] 232–39) and also in relation to the receipt of special graces or privilege by a benefactor (“privileged”; cf. Audet, RB 63 [1956] 358–60; Cambe, RB 70 [1963] 202–5). The latter is undoubtedly to be preferred here and points already to the privileged role for which Mary has been marked out by God. As with the words to Gideon, “You mighty man of valor” (Judg 6:12, cf. v 14 and contrast v 15), the address already states enigmatically Mary’s task in the purpose of God (the “greatly beloved” of Dan 9:23; 10:11, 19 may have the same function and identify Daniel as marked out to be the recipient of special revelations). Lyonnet (Bib 20 [1939] 134) suggests an underlying use of the Hebrew root חנן, nan the same root that underlies the name John (cf. at v 13). An allusion to the name Hannah is also possible (1 Sam 1 and 2; cf. at Luke 1:46). κεχαριτωμένη is interpreted in the text by the declaration “You have found grace with God” in v 30 (see there).
In a greeting, ὁ Κύριος μετὰ σοῦ or a similar form (“the Lord [is] with you”) occurs in the OT only at Judg 6:12 and Ruth 2:4 (van Unnik, “Dominus Vobiscum,” 281) and thus, on the basis of the sustained links with Judg 6:11–24, is to be treated as an allusion to the Judges text (the form is as LXX except for the initial article, which is also not Luke’s usage [cf. at 1:6]). This is no conventional or pious greeting but announces the dynamic power of God’s own presence, the effects of which will be spelled out particularly in v 35. The promise or statement of the presence of God runs like a thread through OT history (see van Unnik [“Dominus Vobiscum,” 276–79] for a partial list) and here reaches a certain culmination.
Nolland, J. (2002). Luke 1:1–9:20 (Vol. 35A, pp. 49–50). Dallas: Word, Incorporated.
And why is it important whether it’s “hail” or “greetings”?
A bad translation can and often does lead to bad theology.
As an example...Genesis 3:15
15And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise you on the head,
And you shall bruise him on the heel.”
Only Douay-Rheims renders the passage as
I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head
, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.
The Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges notes this regarding the translation:
The Vulgate ipsa conteret caput tuum is noticeable. By an error, it rendered the Heb. masc. pronoun (“he” = LXX αὐτός) by the feminine pronoun “ipsa,” ascribing to the woman herself, not to her seed, the crushing of the serpent’s head. The feminine pronoun has given rise to some singular instances of exegesis in honour of the Blessed Virgin Mary.
The Catholic Encyclopedia Online:
The translation "she" of the Vulgate is interpretative; it originated after the fourth century, and cannot be defended critically. https://www.catholic.org/encyclopedia/view.php?id=6056
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