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Why Christians Don't Understand Non-Christians
ArGee | 1/3/01 | ArGee

Posted on 01/03/2002 11:19:13 AM PST by ArGee

A very rich man decided that he wanted to show kindness to the people of the fair city where he lived. Since he was very rich indeed, he decided to throw a banquet for the entire city. He rented the largest sports arena in the city and began his plans. He planned for huge amounts of the best food possible, making allowances for every religious and medical diet. He advertised the banquet in every possible manner - television, radio, billboard, door-to-door canvassing. Considering that there might be some who could not travel, he arranged for free bus transportation to and from the event, and some special-needs vehicles for all who could not ride busses. He even scheduled the banquet to run for 24 hours a day for several days so that everyone could be sure of being served.

He planned long and hard and finally the big day came. The rich man ate quickly and then went about wishing all his guests well and personally making sure that all had every need met. After a while he went outside to tour the grounds and talk with those who had not yet gone in, and those who had already left. Everyone was happy. Many were profusely thankful. It was a glorious occasion.

At one point the rich man noticed a group of people sitting outside a locked door with most unpleasant looks on their faces. Sensing they were not happy, he went over to them. He did not introduce himself but simply asked them if he could be of service.

"We want to go in through this door," one of them replied.

The rich man explained to them that the hall was arranged to feed a large number of people as quickly and effortlessly as possible. This required order inside, and the entrances and exits had been carefully planned to be as efficient as possible. He then offered to go call one of the golf carts that were avaialbe to help people who could not walk far to take them to the entrance. But the man replied, "We do not want to go in the entrance. We want to go in this door. We don't understand why we can't go in any door we wish. We think the man who set this banquet up is mean and hateful for insisting we go in through the entrance. He has tried to bill himself as a very kind man by offering this banquet, but he is not kind at all if he will not indulge us and let us go through this door.

The rich man was distressed at these words, but still attempted to please these people. He tried once more to explain to them what was behind this particular door, and how if they went in this door they would disrupt the meal service being offered inside. He offered to drive them himself, not only to the door, but inside the hall to their tables if they would only go through the entrance to enjoy the meal. Again the man said, "No, but only a hateful man would keep us from going through the door of our choosing. And we will sit here and tell anyone who will listen to us what an awful man he is until he lets us in."

At that the rich man was enraged and he shouted, "Enough." Then he called a police officer to have them thrown off of the property and ordered that they not be allowed to return until the banquet was over and all the scraps had been hauled away. Then, mourning for their loss, he turned to visit with other guests.


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To: Elsie
Is it time to save your pearls?

Not for me. I understand your point, but I asked a question and I am still reading the answers.

Shalom.

551 posted on 01/04/2002 8:26:39 AM PST by ArGee
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To: Elsie

Here PIGGY, Piggy, piggy.

Let's read it in context.

Matthew 7
 
 1.  "Do not judge, or you too will be judged.
 2.  For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
 3.  "Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?
 4.  How can you say to your brother, `Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye?
 5.  You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.
 6.  "Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces.
 7.  "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.
 8.  For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.
 9.  "Which of you, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone?
 10.  Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake?
 11.  If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!
 12.  So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.
 13.  "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.
 14.  But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

(Would someone rather be called a dog?)
552 posted on 01/04/2002 8:29:53 AM PST by Elsie
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To: alaskanfan
I guess I just don't get it. Doesn't God love budhists, shintoists, taoists, and etc as much as he loves christians? What's up with that?

The question is, do Buddhists, Shintoists, Taoists, and etc. love G-d as much as they love their own selves?

That's the problem. If G-d is then there are beliefs in G-d that are false. If G-d is not then all beliefs are equally valid. But presuming that He is then those who love Him will seek to know Him as fully and as perfectly as they can. If religion is just a comfort for the believer, then it doesn't matter what they beliefe. But if religion is the attempt to know God as He is, then it matters.

Are you a Buddhist, Shintoist, Taoist, or etc? Do you love G-d? Come to the Table.

Shalom.

553 posted on 01/04/2002 8:29:57 AM PST by ArGee
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To: ArGee
If you can tell me why it is that you reject every other mythos, theological figurehead, God, and object of worship asserted as real by every other culture throughout the history of time on the planet, it may bring you a step closer to understanding why it is that I reject yours.
554 posted on 01/04/2002 8:30:51 AM PST by OWK
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To: Elsie

Hold on! We're going to do the 'judgement' thing now!!!!!!!


555 posted on 01/04/2002 8:31:03 AM PST by Elsie
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To: LuvItOrLeaveIt
The prophecies in the Bible are no different than Miss Cleo, IMO.

Which ones?

Oh, and I've never had a prayer fail. Maybe you're trying to use it for the wrong purpose?

Shalom.

556 posted on 01/04/2002 8:31:09 AM PST by ArGee
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To: abandon
I think your tale has to be altered.

No, my tale is accurate as I have told it. I don't know which banquets you have been invited to. I am eating and, believe me, the food is GOOD.

Come to the table.

Shalom.

557 posted on 01/04/2002 8:32:34 AM PST by ArGee
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To: discostu
Basically that's what everybody loses if they bet wrong on the roulette table of religion, assuming anybody is right.

I don't bet. Ask the Man. He will tell you. I will tell you myself that the banquet is here and the food is GOOD. I am eating of it, and there is plenty here for you.

Come to the Table.

Shalom.

558 posted on 01/04/2002 8:34:13 AM PST by ArGee
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To: LuvItOrLeaveIt
Actually, as I've stated time and again, I am open to any independently verifiable evidence you would care to present.

What do you mean by "independently verifiable."

Shalom.

559 posted on 01/04/2002 8:35:33 AM PST by ArGee
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To: OWK
We are talking about death. Death at the hands of a vengeful God. The end of earthly existence.

Perhaps death means something different to God than it does to us. Mortals may see death as the end of everything, and if that is true, God is indeed cruel in cutting a person's life short. But from God's perspective, perhaps death is merely the gateway to a different form of life, just as birth is the gateway to mortality. Both birth and death involve a certain amount of pain. But in the the eternal scheme of things, that pain is short-lived.

As for the "vengeful" part, I personally believe, that God did not write the Bible. People with limited knowledge and experience wrote the Bible, and they are the ones who describe Him as vengeful.

From a child's point of view, a parent's discipline may seem "mean, unfair" or even "vengeful." When the child gains more knowledge and experience, he/she can begin to see that the parent really had his/her best interest in mind all along.

560 posted on 01/04/2002 8:35:57 AM PST by wai-ming
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To: OWK
I read that God inflicts all manner of painful and horrific diseases on his faithful servant Job, in a bet with the devil.
Read again........
Job 2
 
 1.  On another day the angels  came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them to present himself before him.
 2.  And the LORD said to Satan, "Where have you come from?"   Satan answered the LORD, "From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it."
 3.  Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil. And he still maintains his integrity, though you incited me against him to ruin him without any reason."
 4.  "Skin for skin!" Satan replied. "A man will give all he has for his own life.
 5.  But stretch out your hand and strike his flesh and bones, and he will surely curse you to your face."
 6.  The LORD said to Satan, "Very well, then, he is in your hands; but you must spare his life."
 7.  So Satan went out from the presence of the LORD and afflicted Job with painful sores from the soles of his feet to the top of his head.
 8.  Then Job took a piece of broken pottery and scraped himself with it as he sat among the ashes.
 9.  His wife said to him, "Are you still holding on to your integrity? Curse God and die!"
 10.  He replied, "You are talking like a foolish  woman. Shall we accept good from God, and not trouble?"   In all this, Job did not sin in what he said.

Now, WHO did the inflicting?
561 posted on 01/04/2002 8:36:37 AM PST by Elsie
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To: ArGee
Why do you say...'If G-d is, then there are beliefs in G-d that are false...etc'...God is, and what humans believe doesn't affect Him in the least. Religion is just a comfort for the believer, and to some extent a controlling device. Why should anyone require anything more than their own God-given faculties to know God?
562 posted on 01/04/2002 8:37:02 AM PST by stuartcr
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To: CCWoody
Not pretending to understand everything, I think that you are not apprehending correctly. The Scripture does reveal that both Adam and Eve knew that they should not do what they both did and that they knew, at least Adam did, exactly why they should not.

I don't deny that they knew that they should not eat from that tree, I mean God himself told them not to do that but since they had not yet eaten from the "tree of knowledge of good and evil" they could not know that it was evil to disobey. Furthermore he told Adam that he would die if he ate from that tree, but what the heck is death? How do you explain that to Adam before the fall? As far as I know death was only an issue after they were thrown out of paradise. How could they know what death is or even whether it was good or bad?

You cannot compare a 3 year old, who was born with a depraved and sinful nature, with Adam. Adam breathed in his first breath to behold the glory of God. He was fully matured in reasoning and posessed every single thing he needed to correctly choose from that moment.

Why not? In this aspect Adam and Eve were at least as inexperienced as a 3 year old. A toddler does not know that it is often bad not to follow the advice of your parents. They have to learn that first. The same with A&E: they did not know that disobeying God is bad. There was no way to learn that because they were allowed to do whatever they wanted except of course to eat from that particular tree. So they had not much opportunity to learn this lesson.

Oh, even though Eve ate the apple first, it is beause of Adam that sin came into the world. Ponder that!

Humm... Yeah, whatever you say.

As God is not only Almighty, but also all knowing, separating the end from the beginning and knowing all detail of every single person before a man's days were ordained, having fully fashioned all men and their days before there was a single one of them; why did God not simply create Adam differently?

I only can guess that God wanted this to happen. I mean why make an individual that can not discern between good and evil and therefore cannot know that it is bad not to follow an order and then place a tree (he is not allowed to eat from) in the garden that is easily accessible to him? IMO that's a really dirty trick.

Sounds just like what I heard from my old Episcopal church. If you don't mind, do you claim to be saved and (if so) what kind of church do you attend?

I don't claim to be saved (whatever that may be) and I don't attend any church. Y'know I'm one of those darn infidels ;->

563 posted on 01/04/2002 8:39:24 AM PST by BMCDA
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To: stingrayfm
What I'm questioning is why God would have created many doors into the feast and then demanded that we use one particular door. So the reason I'm questioning why the rule was made is because it appears to be non-sensical and I'd like to think that God is anything but non-sensical.

You are right that the analogy is flawed.

There is only one door.

But it is open to all and G-d Himself will take you through it.

I just didn't think the story would be as good if I said the people were demanding the rich man have a hole punched through the wall.

Shalom.

564 posted on 01/04/2002 8:40:36 AM PST by ArGee
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To: occam's chainsaw
The Bible demands humility, tollerance(sic) and Christian forgiveness...

Such being the case, why do so few christians follow these demands?


FEW? Just WHERE do you get your percentages??

Do you want them to TOLERATE sin?  Forgive REBELLIOUSNESS?

Don't hold your breath!

565 posted on 01/04/2002 8:41:43 AM PST by Elsie
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Comment #566 Removed by Moderator

To: discostu
what I still haven't figured out is exactly which eternal torment I'm trying to avoid

I get the impression you've been talking to the wrong believers, if you've been talking to believers at all.

Because of sin, you are separated from G-d. By the sacrifice of Jesus your relationship with G-d is restored. I'm not asking you to avoid eternal torment, I'm offering you a chance to know a more beautiful love relationship than you have ever imagined because the G-d you enter into a relationship with is more beautiful than you have ever imagined.. Not some future relationship, but a relationship you can be a part of now. It starts today and goes on for eternity, getting better as it grows.

If there is an eternal torment, it is realizing that this relationship could have been yours, but you have rejected it.

Is a relationship like that something you would want?

Shalom.

567 posted on 01/04/2002 8:44:19 AM PST by ArGee
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To: ArGee
No, my tale is accurate as I have told it.

No, it isn't. The rich man isn't talking to the people outside the many doors, it's just people claiming to know the rich man who are doing all the talking. And they are all talking at the same pitch and they are all saying different things.

Why should the people go through your door as opposed to any other?
568 posted on 01/04/2002 8:45:08 AM PST by abandon
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To: ArGee
May God bless you, ArGee. You have done a wonderful thing with this posting of yours. I am very happy to have found a community of people here at FR that have such a wonderful perspective on life here and in the hereafter.
569 posted on 01/04/2002 8:45:45 AM PST by Sam's Army
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To: abandon
Yes, if we were told that voting the wrong way would get us killed.

In 1990 it did worse than that.

Oops. This is a religious discussion. My mistake. Sorry.

;)

Shalom.

570 posted on 01/04/2002 8:45:46 AM PST by ArGee
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To: soundsolutions
To be extremely accurate, Christianity is the only one that is not a ?religion? and it?s claims differ from all other religions in this way;

Not to nitpick, but Judaism believes what you said also. It's just that Christianity poses the answer to Judaism's self-evident question, "Now what do we do?"

Shalom.

571 posted on 01/04/2002 8:47:05 AM PST by ArGee
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To: Elsie
Do you want them to TOLERATE sin? Forgive REBELLIOUSNESS? Don't hold your breath!

Hence the comment.

572 posted on 01/04/2002 8:47:26 AM PST by OWK
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To: stingrayfm
Who uses the other doors?

It's my story and I made it up so the question is mine.

But the story is just that, a story. It is not a parable and it is not meant to be a systematic theology.

There is only one door. Everyone else has painted a door on the wall and is demanding that the rich man punch a hole to accomodate their door. Maybe I should have told it that way in the first place, but I didn't think of it.

I will certainly remember it, though.

Shalom.

573 posted on 01/04/2002 8:48:58 AM PST by ArGee
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To: ArGee
I do not know you, and I will probably never understand your story well enough to explain what happened from posts on Free Republic. I know for a fact that G-d showed. I can't know why you couldn't see Him.

Nonsense, nobody showed. If you know for a fact your alleged god showed, present the independently verifiable evidence.

574 posted on 01/04/2002 8:49:16 AM PST by LuvItOrLeaveIt
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To: Elsie
Now, WHO did the inflicting?

God.

If it wasn't for God's little side-bet with the devil, poor old Job would have been left alone.

575 posted on 01/04/2002 8:49:40 AM PST by OWK
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To: ArGee
The One who has been to both has told us they both exist. What more do you need?

Baloney! Trot out the one and let it speak for itself. Nobody ever went to heaven and/or hell and told me about it. All I have are second, third, and fourth hand accounts, inadmissable evidence in any court.

576 posted on 01/04/2002 8:51:15 AM PST by LuvItOrLeaveIt
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To: wai-ming
As for the "vengeful" part, I personally believe, that God did not write the Bible. People with limited knowledge and experience wrote the Bible, and they are the ones who describe Him as vengeful.

This of course, was my point in a nutshell.

A loving benevolent omnipotent God, could not rationally be anything like the descriptions of him in the Old Testament.

577 posted on 01/04/2002 8:52:08 AM PST by OWK
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To: ArGee
I am really surprised. I can think of a few possibilities. Either you didn't look in the right place, or you looked hoping not to find, or you intentionally looked in the wrong place, or you were looking for the wrong person to answer and didn't see who was at the door.

In the first place, G-d knocks. You don't knock. But you can seek. You may need a guide, but if you open your heart to His knock then He will guide you.

I don't know you so I can't know your experience. In my experience everyone who answers as you do intentionally knocked on the wrong door so they could claim it was G-d's fault. He really isn't that hard to find. After all, I found Him and I'm not at all special.

Trot him/her/it out.

578 posted on 01/04/2002 8:52:12 AM PST by LuvItOrLeaveIt
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To: Matchett-PI
I don't mean to be rude, but would you mind starting your own thread? I know there are a lot of disagreements about doctrine among the saved, and I don't want to minimize them, but I'm not sure a thread written specifically to the unsaved is the place to discuss them. I've been studying Christianity a long time and the points you raise are very difficult to understand or teach.

I'm not challenging your devotion to Christ, your sincerity, or even the validity of your point. I'm just not sure this is the place for a doctoral thesis on doctrinal details.

But, it's a free thread. That's a request from me, not a demand.

Shalom.

579 posted on 01/04/2002 8:55:49 AM PST by ArGee
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To: newgeezer
The "smarter" we humans get, as we inspect and dissect ourselves and our natural surroundings, the more difficult it should be for us to dismiss the evidence of an intelligent designer behind it all.

Occam's Razor directly disputes your assertion here. You add complexity to the issue by adding a designer. There is zero evidece of intelligent design.

580 posted on 01/04/2002 8:57:09 AM PST by LuvItOrLeaveIt
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To: BMCDA
Oh, even though Eve ate the apple first, it is beause of Adam that sin came into the world. (5)  Ponder that!

Humm... Yeah, whatever you say.


Let's look at it.......


Genesis 2:15-18
 15.  The LORD God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it.
 16.  And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden;
 17.  but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."
 18.  The LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him."
 
(Note that EVE wasn't around yet when Adam was told about the totkogae ..............)
 
Genesis 3:1-19
 
 1.  Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, (1) `You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?"
 2.  The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden,
 3.  but God did say, `You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die. (2)'"
 4.  "You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman.
 5.  "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."
 6.  When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, (3) she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it.
 7.  Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.
 8.  Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the LORD God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the LORD God among the trees of the garden.
 9.  But the LORD God called to the man, "Where are you?"
 10.  He answered, "I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid."
 11.  And he said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?"
 12.  The man said, "The woman you put here with me--she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it."  (4)
 13.  Then the LORD God said to the woman, "What is this you have done?"   The woman said, "The serpent deceived me, and I ate." (4)
 14.  So the LORD God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this, "Cursed are you above all the livestock and all the wild animals! You will crawl on your belly and you will eat dust all the days of your life.
 15.  And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring  and hers; he will crush  your head, and you will strike his heel."
 16.  To the woman he said, "I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you."
 17.  To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife (5) and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, `You must not eat of it,' "Cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat of it all the days of your life.
 18.  It will produce thorns and thistles for you, and you will eat the plants of the field.
 19.  By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return."
 
1. The Serpent introduces DOUBT.
 
2. Now she knew EXACTLY WHERE that tree was!  She had gotten the info from Adam.  Adding things to what GOD had said.  Adam either added the remark Eve made to the serpent or she made it up on the fly, as Eve did NOT here directly from GOD about not eating of the tree.

3. Desirable............  Someone tells you, "You can't have it", and immediately you WANT it!  Also, the BEST of intentions - gaining wisdom (to be more like GOD).
 
4. Ah, human nature hasn't changed, "It's the OTHER guys fault, not mine."
 
5. THIS is why Adam gets the credit!

581 posted on 01/04/2002 9:00:19 AM PST by Elsie
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To: LuvItOrLeaveIt
"There is zero evidece of intelligent design." You've obviously not seen any movies starring Nicole Kidman.
582 posted on 01/04/2002 9:00:29 AM PST by Sam's Army
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To: LuvItOrLeaveIt
There is zero evidece of intelligent design.
Ok, is the keyboard you are typing upon any evidence of intelligent design?
583 posted on 01/04/2002 9:05:18 AM PST by Elsie
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To: ArGee
Don't be sorry. This is probably the best religion thread I've seen on FR. For the most part (to a much larger degree than many other threads) it has been polite and respectful on both sides and I think everybody is getting a much better understanding of each other. Nothing to be sorry about here.
584 posted on 01/04/2002 9:07:06 AM PST by discostu
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To: OWK
GOD did
Just as I thought: you can't read.

Hey OWK! I'll bet you ain't got guts enough to poke ol' Jake here in the nose! Five bucks says yur chicken!


When OWK gets hauled in for assault he'll say, "Elsie bet me I wouldn't do it! I showed him!"

Clank.

585 posted on 01/04/2002 9:09:18 AM PST by Elsie
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To: ArGee
LuvItOrLeaveIt Wrote:

"Yep. I knocked. Nobody answered."

ArGee Wrote:"I am really surprised. I can think of a few possibilities. Either you didn't look in the right place, or you looked hoping not to find, or you intentionally looked in the wrong place, or you were looking for the wrong person to answer and didn't see who was at the door."

I was surprised when my girlfriend, who is now my fiance, told me the same thing. I couldn't understand why God wouldn't respond to her.

To make a long story short...(if you want details freemail me)God had something he wanted me to do, I didn't want to do it. Until I obeyed him nothing was happening with my GF spiritually.

When I finally obeyed (it had to do with my GF) something did happen.

She called me at work the day after I 'obeyed' and told me this: She said she was speaking outloud while cleaning. Saying basically 'God why do you speak to Chris (me) but don't answer me when I speak to You?' At this point God revealed Himself to her. Why didn't he do it the first, 2nd 3rd 4th time she asked? I have no idea.

Just thought i'd relate this to you.

Sorry about the hurried nature of the post. Time constraints.

586 posted on 01/04/2002 9:10:14 AM PST by Jn316
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To: Elsie
Simple. Man spread out BEFORE he developed languange skills. The historical record shows that not every region developed language at the same time, each region with it's seperation in both time and space developed one of the root languages. The closest thing we have to an absolute Babel style root language would be the grunts and howls of animals and new borns; while that's certainly a form of communication I wouldn't go so far as to say it's a language.
587 posted on 01/04/2002 9:11:56 AM PST by discostu
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To: nobdysfool
That's why it's not up to us, but up to God.

Bears repeating. No, bears shouting.

That's why it's not up to us, but up to God.

Shalom.
588 posted on 01/04/2002 9:14:15 AM PST by ArGee
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To: aruanan
Aren't you being imprecise?

No, I really don't understand them. True, I was just like them, except that G-d got my attention. Believe me, there is nothing special about me. I am as hard headed, stubborn, and proud as anyone I know. (That doesn't sound proud, does it?) There is no reason why G-d would prefer me to lexcorp or anyone else. If G-d could get through to me, He could get through to anyone.

Therefore, there is something about those who have not accepted His call that I truly don't understand.

To Everyone: The food is good. The wine is excellent. The fellowship is divine.

Come to the table.

Shalom.

589 posted on 01/04/2002 9:17:46 AM PST by ArGee
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To: semaj
Gracias!

Soy un hombre.

Shalom (Paz)

590 posted on 01/04/2002 9:18:38 AM PST by ArGee
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To: ArGee
hey that took you a long time to answer *grin*

Yes..I do not believe it is not an open meal..

591 posted on 01/04/2002 9:20:50 AM PST by RnMomof7
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To: Elsie
God did. Verse 3 ends: though you incited me against him to ruin him without any reason, after that it's Satans turn (Job's life is already pretty messed up by Chapter 2). And anyway regardless of which one took the active hand God still thought it was OK to mess up the guys life to win a handshake bet with the Devil.

I know a lot of people read Job when they have a crisis in faith and are renewed. I read it when I had a crisis in faith and was aghast. Even if I believed in God, thanks to the Book of Job I would never worship Him.

592 posted on 01/04/2002 9:21:36 AM PST by discostu
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To: Celtjew Libertarian
But even if that's the case, I prefer to go it alone.

Then you prefer to go against the Tanak. It clearly states that you have no Savior but G-d. If the Tanak is truly the oracle of G-d, then you can not save yourself.

Shalom.

593 posted on 01/04/2002 9:22:46 AM PST by ArGee
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To: ArGee
(Dang! I shudda copyrighted® this!)
594 posted on 01/04/2002 9:23:47 AM PST by Elsie
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To: OWK
If it wasn't for God's little side-bet with the devil, poor old Job would have been left alone.

Again, the writers of the Bible were probably using a story to illustrate a point. IMO, and I may be wrong, they took considerable license with the Book of Job. I think that if God really made a "side-bet with the devil," He wouldn't be so foolish as to tell us about it. The writers likely embellished this story to help the people of their day understand that God eventually rewards patience and faith, and that pain can be temporary. As you recall, in the end Job was rewarded ten-fold for his "pain and suffering".

Perhaps there is a greater lesson to be learned here: If we trust in God, despite temporary conditions such as sickness, sorrow, and even death, we too may eventually receive something greater than our mortal minds can imagine.

595 posted on 01/04/2002 9:23:49 AM PST by wai-ming
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To: Belial
The problem with your analogy is that you have a New Age view of Christianity.

I thank you for your input, but I don't think that you started your Bible reference early enough. Jesus was not telling the ruler he was not saved. Jesus was telling the ruler why his life was not abundant.

Please remember that this simple story is not a systematic theology. It is just a story to remind everyone of a simple truth.

G-d wants everyone to be saved, and G-d has made the way.

Shalom.

596 posted on 01/04/2002 9:25:49 AM PST by ArGee
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To: discostu
Why doesn't ANYONE read 'til the END of the story??????????

Job 42
 10.  After Job had prayed for his friends, the LORD made him prosperous again and gave him twice as much as he had before.
 11.  All his brothers and sisters and everyone who had known him before came and ate with him in his house. They comforted and consoled him over all the trouble the LORD had brought upon him, and each one gave him a piece of silver  and a gold ring.
 12.  The LORD blessed the latter part of Job's life more than the first. He had fourteen thousand sheep, six thousand camels, a thousand yoke of oxen and a thousand donkeys.
 13.  And he also had seven sons and three daughters.
 14.  The first daughter he named Jemimah, the second Keziah and the third Keren-Happuch.
 15.  Nowhere in all the land were there found women as beautiful as Job's daughters, and their father granted them an inheritance along with their brothers.
 16.  After this, Job lived a hundred and forty years; he saw his children and their children to the fourth generation.
 17.  And so he died, old and full of years.

597 posted on 01/04/2002 9:26:53 AM PST by Elsie
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To: Elsie
Many of the Christians I have observed are very judgmental, intolerant, snobs who tend to look down their noses to non-Christians. I am in no way implying that all of them are this way (many of them are kind and friendly people), but I personally have observed a great deal of this behavior amongst them. It seems to me that this behavior is inconsistent with many of the teachings in the Bible. It has always confused me that these people chose to condemn the non-Christians around them rather than to attempt to help them. Doesn’t it make more sense to try to win non-believers over and enlighten them than to castigate them and treat them like swine?

I did not cite any percentages. I know of no source for such statistics.

598 posted on 01/04/2002 9:27:00 AM PST by occam's chainsaw
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To: ArGee
Have you read The Koran and The Bible? Can you see distinctions between them?

Do you know how to validate a claim to truth?

Yeah, I said "How about the Koran?" to spin you guys up. It worked beyond my wildest dreams. That is why I stated it as a question.

Ya'll are an angry bunch, but at least you have no sense of humor.

599 posted on 01/04/2002 9:29:03 AM PST by Cogadh na Sith
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To: AnalogReigns
Thank you. If you'll forgive me, I'll risk distracting you so that I don't offend orthodox Jews. Distraction is lesser than offense.

The original Jewish Christians were writing in either Hebrew or Greek so they didn't write the English word at all. ;) They probably wrote "Adonai." I could write LORD.

Shalom.

p.s. The world is analog. Digital is just a passing fad.

600 posted on 01/04/2002 9:29:53 AM PST by ArGee
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