The cross: A symbol, but of what?

AP via Providence Journal ^ | 3/16/02 | RICHARD N. OSTLING

[Ward Smythe]

On this we agree, however, it was Ward that put the hammer down!

Once again, though I have attempted to address this on several occasions via freepmail, you distort what I said. Let me once again explain what I meant when I said, "When I saw him face to face, I put the hammer down."

1 John 1:7-10
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

My sin, oh the bliss of this glorious thought,
My sin, not in part, but the whole,
Is nailed to the cross, and I bear it no more.
Praise the LORD! Praise the LORD, Oh my soul!

Yes Jean, I nailed Him there, but His priceless blood covered my sins and He remembers them no more. I surrendered my will to Him. I put the hammer down.

To me that would seem to be a very Calvinistic comment.

P stands for perseverance of the saints. A better name might be "the perseverance of God with the saints," but both ideas are actually involved. God perseveres with us, keeping us from falling away, as we would certainly do if He were not with us. But because He perseveres we also persevere. In fact, perseverance is the ultimate proof of election. We persevere because God preserves us from full and final falling away from Him.
Grace Online Library

Seems to me "falling away from Him" would involve hanging onto the hammer or picking it up again. Unless of course you mean that once the elect are regenerated and repent they intend to keep on sinning and nailing Jesus to the cross all over again.

That's not what you meant, is it? I didn't think so.

[Jean Chauvin]

"Yes Jean, I nailed Him there, but His priceless blood covered my sins and He remembers them no more. I surrendered my will to Him. I put the hammer down"

Finally! Ward admits that he, as well, nailed Christ to the cross! Why you failed to mention this before, Ward, I do not know!

Now I understand where you are coming from. Perhaps, if you too would give Mom and OP a chance to explain their context of their statements regarding 'Christ Haters' and the like, then you, too, can understand their positions as I now understand yours!

And if they have, already, then you should be gracious enough to admit you, too, were wrong in understanding their statements!

Nevertheless, it was Christ who took the hammer out of your hand and threw it away! How wonderful is this gospel of grace!

Jean

[Ward Smythe]

Why you failed to mention this before, Ward, I do not know!

To the contrary Jean, I have mentioned it on numerous occasions.

[Revelation 911]

Now I understand where you are coming from. Perhaps, if you too would give Mom and OP a chance to explain their context of their statements regarding 'Christ Haters' and the like, then you, too, can understand their positions as I now understand yours!

No disrespect meant but the "context" is fully explained and readily apparent in the tenor of OP's posts to me here - merely for giving the thread an Arminian bump for later read as I was genuinely interested in reading a well reasoned perspective. I'll take Ward's cue from now on and keep my distance.

[Ward Smythe]

For the record Jean, from my February 25, 2002 freepmail to you:

So, when you say "You have overstepped the bounds and become self righteous, arrogant and heretical in insistance that you were not responsible for putting Christ on the cross -that you put that hammer down." you are either purposefully lying OR grossly mistaken. I have admitted many times that it was my sin that put Him there.

[Ward Smythe]

Thank you. I read through the comments to you on that thread. I won't respost them here, but there can be no question regarding the intent of the previously discussed statements.

[Jean Chauvin]

"To the contrary Jean, I have mentioned it on numerous occasions." Ward, you'll have to refresh my memory. Where have you previously mentioned that you nailed Christ to the Cross? I have seen you mention numerous times that you put the hammer down, but you never once, that I recall, mentioned you, too, nailed him to the cross.

The closest I've seen you come is: "I was there too and have admitted that multiple times on this thread.

But when I met Him face to face, I put the hammer down.

616 posted on 2/22/02 12:37 PM Eastern by Ward Smythe

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That's not quite the same thing as saying you, too, nailed him to the cross. But, if I am wrong on this, I'm sure you will find your comments and post them here.

Jean

[Jean Chauvin]

"So, when you say "You have overstepped the bounds and become self righteous, arrogant and heretical in insistance that you were not responsible for putting Christ on the cross -that you put that hammer down." you are either purposefully lying OR grossly mistaken. I have admitted many times that it was my sin that put Him there."

Lot's of people know their sins put him there. The way most people view it, though, it was a passive thing. "Christ was nailed to the cross to potentially save us from our sins. It's up to me to make that effective by believing on him." So where did you say, specifically, that you were active in nailing him to the cross????

Jean

[Ward Smythe]

I'm not going to argue this with you Jean. I told you from day one on that comment that it was a weak attempt to be dramatic. And I did so via freepmail precisely for avoiding discussions like this one. Of course that was back before I was fully clued in as to how you guys play this game and back when I foolishly thought I could trust any of you.

Once again, I've explained what I meant above. Accept it or not. God knows what I meant. Whether or not you do is irrelevant.

[rdb3]

We have always welcomed people of all ethnic groups, races, and colors as members. Some were restricted for a time from holding the Priesthood, but it was not on the basis of skin color, and the Lord did not tell us why, but they wanted to be members anyway because they know this is The Church of Jesus Christ.

We were told that the day would come when that restriction would be lifted, and we eagerly awaited that day. We greatly rejoiced and were absolutely delighted when it came.

One word, WhiteMountain: L I A R!

[Jean Chauvin]

"No disrespect meant but the "context" is fully explained and readily apparent in the tenor of OP's posts to me here - merely for giving the thread an Arminian bump for later read as I was genuinely interested in reading a well reasoned perspective. I'll take Ward's cue from now on and keep my distance."

Is this just sour grapes for not being able to counter OP's argument with FACTS? I recall your last discussion, you ended up not being able to defend your position with facts. You attempted to change the subject by pointing out seemingly anti-semetic comments of Calvin. And then when OP showed you conclusive proof that Wesley made similar statements, you then proceeded to tell OP he Idolizes Calvin, When OP, called you to task on this, you then ended with you berating him and then calling the argument a 'pissing match'. All the while you were putting down the character of OP.

This, my friend, for all the world to see, is quite juvenile arguing tactics. Obviously, you had not the FACTS to counter OP's statements regarding the intentional Jesuit deception on which Arminianism is based, so you resorted to name calling. How profound. It seems to me, that you have demonstrated you willingness to uses any attempt to change the subject of a discussion which is not going the way you wish it to go. I must, therefore, conclude that you have also intentionally misrepresented Mom's and OP's comments when you know full well, they have been explained in context.

If you find the need to continue to argue, perhaps you should try and use sound reasoning based on FACTS and not inuendo.

Jean

[rdb3]

A Physician Testifies About the Crucifixion

[Revelation 911]

After all... I should be perfectly happy to let you have the last words, so long as they are of the sort, "I renounce the Arminian Lies which have corrupted Christendom, and embrace the Biblical Doctrine of Sovereign Grace (also nicknamed 'Calvinism')!!"(posted by Orthodox Prebyterian)

Im noting your reluctance to address the post & OP's tenor - perhaps this calrifies.

[Ward Smythe]

Thank you.

[Revelation 911]

Jean - you dance around Wards assertion - they have called us Christ haters -

[RnMomof7]

Sometimes the name is listed there because a descendant submitted the name, or in other cases the name is there because it appears on the microfilm of a parish register from long ago.

Thanks for the link...will it tell who requested the baptism?In other words will it say requested by " Joe Jones" if it was a proxy baptism?

[rdb3]

Those members wanted to be members of the Church anyway because they know deep down inside, by the witness of the Holy Spirit. . .

And what is the only sin that Christ said was unforgivable?

[RnMomof7]

If you were to say that Isaiah wrote his prophecies from voices he heard as he was coming out of a seizure, you would be casting grave doubt on his calling as a prophet. You would be among those doubters who deny the validity of the Bible, which is Holy Scripture, and try to explain it away as myth or delusion, because Isaiah was indeed a true prophet of God and received the Word of God from the Holy Spirit, not from seizures.

I see youir point...but there is a major difference..Isaiah never errored in his prophesies....Joseph Smith did...there have been changes made along the way...

I know you believe Joseph Smith...and you know I believe you are deceived..if all of your eternity did not depend on this Rich I would shrug and walk away..I fear your your eternity so if I seem argumentative know it is because I do care ...

BTW I visited that link..I saw names but I must have done something wrong cause I didn't see the baptisimal dates???

[RnMomof7]

When they have paid the full price for their sins, when they have drunk the dregs of the cup of trembling wrung out for a thousand years or more, they are redeemed by the power of Christ from hell, are resurrected in the last resurrection, and are brought to stand before the judgment bar of God.

White Mountain..you have just described purgatory..:>)))

Rabbi only means teacher or master ..it was not an "ordained ""offical " position...no requirements for the honor of being called Rabbi..

I guess I can see why your religion would almost neeed to have him married ...sex is like a sacrament ..it is how new souls are created..and the more wives the better (in your original tradition)....but there is no historic record of any wives Rich and you know that

[RnMomof7]

We all, all mankind, have One God,

How many gods met in counsel to make the decision to make the earth WM? You can not have it both ways...say the trinity is a council of gods and there is only one god..